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Edit: crap, double-post. See my post on page 7 for what Serene Night is responding to.
I'll replace it with stuff I want to say based on the last two pages:
Also this means within the intro period. So wishlisting is exactly the same as not buying it and plays into a PA making similar items in the future.
Why is it so important to buy during the intro period? Many of us can't afford to do so-- or alternatively we COULD, but then we'd be purchasing far fewer products than we would if they were at least 45% off. I only purchase intro items if they're something I really want-- PROVIDED they're PA, cheap to begin with, or obscenely on sale (the one exception was DA's dagger poses-- I really wanted them + I felt an obligation to get them during the introductory period as it was something he made specifically due to both mine and another user's request.
Unfortunately, this is not the first thread where I've seen people essentially told "I don't care how good your reasons are, if you don't buy *everything* that might maybe kinda sorta meet your stated requirements - even if you can't afford it, don't actually need it and will not actually use it because it doesn't fit your prefered genres - immediately, you're a lying hypocrite who doesn't actually want X"
Same here 100%, though it seems like the majority of it comes from just a single PA.
""To me the issue isn't skimpwear ... its the gluttony of how much there is when everyday items like police uniforms are made unrealistic and by extension get very limited in usability.... sexy doesn't mean that everything is out on display and while I'm absolutely positive there is a market for the sexy cop outfit in the fantasy and comic books.. they are a waste of time for people like me who want to see realistic quality merchandise that people would actually wear outside of a party stripper.""
Well, those are the things that sell. One of the biggest uses for Poser/Daz content is erotica. Sexy cop is popular for bondage scenes, just like "strict teacher" (any time you see a skimpwear teacher outfit with a pointer stick, it's a bondage outfit)
The vast majority of users are not professionals. They're just hobbyists who make fantasy/scifi scenes for their stories, everyday scenes, or erotica.
As I said in my previous post, the items that tend to sell the absolute best are tank tops and somewhat immodest to moderately skimpwear outfits which are very generic but versatile. Sexy cop is not one of them.
Nearly wants a supersuit-- problem is those take a long time to make-- they're among the most sophisticated clothing models out there, and typically have to be made from the ground up. I mean look at the Genesis Supersuit-- all those morphs and material zones. How long after Genesis's initial release was the supersuit released? Everyone who uses G3F wants a supersuit-- but they have a long wait ahead of them-- it's a massive project-- and I have noticed a lot of impatience here in regards to the wardrobe and morphs-- we got spoiled with the release of Genesis 2-- which was based so heavily off of the Genesis 1 mesh that the learning curve was relatively small-- we had the V4 clone for G2F released on what-- the second week of her debut?
Whereas Genesis 3 is so completely different that it has the biggest learning curve of any two generations.
Umm Ice empress. You don't need to convince me.I don't think I ever had doubts that sexy stuff sells. :-)
..when you are on an extremely tight budget with little chance for improvement, you tend to purchase what you need and will most likely use the most often.
SInce I lost my regular job over two years ago, my purchasing has become primarily focused on content that supports the stories I wish to illustrate. One is a dark futuristic fairytale takes place in cyber world setting, the other is a fairly expansive science fiction story with a strong element of political intrigue. I have been slowly gathering content which I feel supports both of these, as my income and budget permits. If I can get something I need on sale, great! If I can get a GC once in a while for winning or placing in a challenge, super!
This is not to say I don't have other interests that I would like to depict though my 3D art, just the the above two have the highest priority as they are a major reason why I first became involved in this. I'd love to branch out a little more, but the finances just don't allow it and probably won't unless I wind up with some sort of windfall.
I'll tell you what I'm even more bored with....
Poses. Seems like they just keep coming and coming...
+1
getting to be a joke
I've got 3 points to make here:
1) Our wishlists are saved on the site and accessible by Daz. I know that a wishlisted product is not a confirmed sale, but it is a statement of interest in a particular product that any marketing team worth their salt should be taking great interest in (this kind of info is marketing gold). A wishlisted item should send one of 2 messages - either I want this but can't afford it right now, or I want this but you've over-priced it. I would be very surprised indeed if Daz took no interest in our wishlists when they formulate their sales, or decide which products are popular and which are not. Sales, especially, should be targeted at the most frequently wishlisted items for maximum effect (take this down Daz, if you're not already doing this).
2) Just because something is not purchased immediately after release doesn't mean that it won't be purchased at all. There are many reasons why a wanted/popular product might be wishlisted rather than snapped up immediately - (a) You may have over-priced it, (b) It doesn't fit into peoples' budgets just yet, (c) The customer has an idea for a project with that product but they're too tied up with other projects right now to justify buying it instantly, (d) Customers want the product but there is another product that they need more so that takes priority right now.... etc etc
3) Daz sales are so frequent and so effective that it dissuades any savvy consumer from paying full price for anything. Why pay near full price on release when the chances are that the item will appear in a 60% off sale 6 months down the line? We consumers can be a patient bunch and we're not idiots. I know that this attitude doesn't chime with the "support the PAs" ethos, but when people are on limited budgets pragmatism wins out over idealism.
Daz literally trains us to wait for sales.
Today everybody is trained to buy as cheap as possible. Daz content, books, photos ... There were times when photographers got three-figure prices for their work, today, most get less than a Dollar. Books- People complain about books costing more than 5 bucks, books the author needed a year to complete. Same with 3D. It just seems that art is so abundant that it lost value in consumer eyes.
But that doesn't change the fact that we still need to pay for bread and butter, so 3D items come second class, and then, if I pay with my hard-earned money, I either expect supreme quality or very cheap sales. As supreme quality is often missing, at least in my eyes (3d Characters and clothing often enough look like plastic dolls, even the new Gen3 items), I go for cheap.
In cases of best quality and items I need (like the fox animal bundle), I'm perfectly willing to pay full price.
I don't think my post got is being understood. I'm not saying you can't complain. I'm not saying you can't wishlist. I'm not saying you must buy everything the day it's released from the store.
I'm saying it's not fair to a PA to make statements in a thread like this and call it constructive feedback.
Your views are clear.
Since gen 2 poses can easily be converted, I have found myself not buying most of the numerous pose sets for gen 3- Unless they come with a prop that I want.
Your position is clear, however several other people have piggy-backed onto your "Why aren't you buying Rune" honest question and turned it into "if you're not buying Rune, you're lying and don't actually want to support Vendors who make what you ask for." And that position, I do believe, deserves a fair amount of push-back.
I'm not buying Rune because I don't have the $37 to get the bundle. It's as simple as that. If that makes me a hypocrite in someone's eyes, they can always send me a gift-card, and I'll be more than happy to pick it up. Otherwise, not buying because we can't afford it does not equal not being willing to support artists who do give us what we want.
I liked Rune. I would pick it up if it were priced after sale was about 13.00. That is probably the value to me, since I already have a number of female bodysuits with armor.... it isn't strictly sci-fi, and I might use it only a few times. That doesn't mean it isn't an amazing piece of work, I just have to consider usage. It is very distinctive. Probably not suitable for an everyday character. It is the outfit of an elite warrior, or villain or alien queen.
So for me Value= Number of uses I will get, utilitiarianness and number of times I will render.
I like the suit alot. But, I don't do a lot of female renders. If it had been made for G2M? Would have bought it immediately. 9 conforming pieces with adjustment morphs, different mat zones that I can turn on and off and get clean looks and 2 props for under $21? Bargain.
Neither do I. i prefer male renders. I still wouldn't pay that kind of money for it, since I do have a number of suits already.
It is possible it could work on G2M. I've had good luck fitting some female bodysuits to males. It depends on the chest area morphs.
That is one of the nice things about the Genesis series.
But honestly? I'm kind of done with buying new things that need a work around. I have other content that doesn't need that I can use different shaders on or make new texture maps. If a vendor doesn't want to make a male version of their product, that's fine. But I'm not always willing to compromise, and that's fine too.
It's one of the reasons why I'm not renewing my PC+ membership when it expires at the end of August. I've been a PC member for years. My current membership is two annuals I purchased within months of each other because I had the extra money. I'd always had great luck and liked the items in the PC club. It was a great value and return on investment. At this time, I don't feel that anymore.
I've been buying from the store since 2003. I have a lot of content. A lot. I usually like the current PC offerings, but more often than not it's not something I see myself using. I struggle to find original Daz content to use my $6 coupon on. It's even harder to find something to use the $6 off $18 coupon. 90% of the content being made isn't something I want to buy. I'm sure it appeals to many buyers, just not me.
I have no doubt G3M will have great technical specs and features that make him the most realstic male figure yet. But if history is an indication, he won't have much of a wardrobe and even fewer hairstyle options. I'll continue to set some money aside for when a favorite vendor releases a great item for guys - like Stonemason's Streetwear line, MEC4D's items or Jepe's characters, but otherwise I'll be diverting my energy to using what I already have.
As another hobbyist, I dont have the same ability to spend on the various assets as do the professionals. I also dont have the requirements to continue to expand my library so that I can meet any foreseeable need. And best of all, I dont have the requirement to spend long hours interpreting and implementing another person's "vision". There is a lot of freedom in being a hobbyist that I truly do appreciate. I do what I want to do. I create what I want to create and I do it on my time. All that said, I have a "day job" and a budget I have to stay within.
This whole budget thing requires that I - and I feel certain other hobbyists- have limits on what we will spend at any one point. Its just the way it is. That means that we WILL be selective on what we buy. We will use our wishlists and we will leverage the sales to be as advantageous to us as we can. Trust me, neither DAZ nor the PA's are really losing out by those sales. I used to work in retail in the past and I got a really good "education" in retail sales techniques. They are pretty much the same as when there were only brick and mortar stores. The timing on things is different, and the overhead costs are substantially less with an online v/s a brick and mortar store but the essentials are the same.
The things that I , as a hobbyist, look for are quality, flexibility ( how many and how varied ways of use), and pricing. There are other considerations but I think these are the main ones.
Quality: This is the most important thing. I may be "only a hobbyist" but I still want to be able to have good results from my efforts. While talent is a part of that, so are quality assets. If I put in the time, tax my meager store of talent to the utmost and still end up with a horrid image because the assets I used were of poor quality then I am of course going to be be frustrated and more than likely I will not purchase assets from that vendor again. So, vendors, if you want the hobbyist dollar/euro/drachma/peso etc. please by all means for clothing put in the morphs and various "fits' and such. Take your time, give me mutiple material zones so that I can go crazy with shaders. If its a prop,( building, vehhicle or whatnot) go crazy with texturing and detail. Make it something I can use again and again in various ways or genre's. Take the time. Because, if the quality is there, and its something that appeals to me, I will more than likely buy it as soon as I can - quite possibly in the intro period- over something else that I like but is of lesser use and quality. Yes, I have a budget but I also have a brain. If I see quality, I will change my purchasing plans to accomodate it.
Price: As a hobbyist consumer, this is of course an important consideration. I am not a professional. I dont have the deeper pockets - or the employer subsidy in some cases- of the graphics arts professional. So, I have a budget and since its my hobby, I am the one responsible for looking out for my own needs here. I make fewer immediate purchases than the professional. I use my wishlist as a tool to best leverage my budget to get the maximum in good quality assets for my money. There is nothing "wrong" with that and quite honestly some of the people that spout off with the " if you dont buy it during intro" or "only buy things during the major sales" you are not "supporting the artist who made it" comments really annoy me. I feel fairly certain that there are more hobbyists than professionals out there and most of us hobbyists have budgets. If the hobbyist market dried up and went away, there would be a much bigger dent in everyones profits than anyone wants to see. Prices need to be something that is within reach of both the hobbyist and professional in this market in order to make the maximum in profits for the creator or company. I am pretty sure that the content creators are happy to see my purchase either immediately during intro or later on during a sale. It all adds up. Especially if I end up buying several items at once from the same vendor which has been known to happen when there is a flash sale or other good opportunity happening. In spite of what is often said about the various ways the sales are done, they are watched and studied and being utilized to their fullest. This drives up profit for both the content creators and DAZ3d as a company. If they did not, they would not be happening.
Flexibility: I partially adressed this in my comments on quality above but I am touching on it again here. Stuff that I can use and re-use is very important. If I can use various shaders to make it look "new and different" or to better fit my use, so much the better. A good example of this is the "Utopia Deck C" by Stonemason. I must have used that thing AT LEAST ten times since I picked it up in one of the rare flash sales of Stonemason's products. I even used it to create an image for a christmas card for a couple of friends. Even better, it renders beautifully in Iray with either the simple conversion using the "uber shader" or a more detailed treatment with Iray shaders and playing with emissives. Another example of this is the "Rune" outfit that has figured so prominiently in this forum conversation. It is an item that can transfer very easily between fantasy and sci fi use. It also has very very many material zones which lends to further useability and the cloak has morphs that allow it to show movement in a realistic fashion. All these things point to both quality and flexibility which is a hit on two of the three evaluation criteria I use. Therefore, I purchased the G3 version of it. I would have liked to get the larger bundle but since I am constrained by that dreaded "hobbyists budget" the texture pack went into the wishlist. I will purchase that texture pack at some point but it will probably either be with the PC+ coupon or during a sale. Thats just the way it is and I will not apologize for it.
So, please, lets not be judgemental on others buying habits as some of us seem to have become in this forum conversation. It just destroys the community and will not "make" people change their purchasing habits.
Can we go back to playing nicely with each other now?
Agreed. I prefer the flexibility of genesis to the gender split, which hasn't been kind to the males, who traditionally get fewer content options.
I also agree about new things that need workarounds. Lately, I've been seeing I've spent a fair amount of time making something 'work'. When I would like it to work initially or not. That is a good point.
Not to mention the gaping hole now with textures, since the decision was made to break that last glint of compatibility. Such a shame, I never would have thought they'd do that.
...I'm with you there and it is one of the major reasons why I have not adopted G3. Like many I have a fairly substantial investment in older figure/character content that pretty much is rendered useless with regards to using with G3 because of the changes to the rigging and especially texture map setup.
As I mentioned in another post, it seems with each new iteration of the Genesis concept, it has become less and less versatile as well as less compatible with older generation figures and shapes (particularly G3F with regards to skin maps). What we seem to be moving back towards is essentially a weight mapped Vicky "unimesh" figure (and eventually a weight mapped Michael one) that supports a more limited amount of mixing and flexibility (without the need for external add ons and conversion tools) of the original Genesis mesh..
So far, I've preferred the skinmaps from previous generations. So I'm hoping-especially for us 3delight users that those maps will be transferrable using a utiltty.
What a funny thread, they should make hexagon free and then do away with PA's, talk about a shot of reality, LOL.
People can rationalize their spending any way they want and that's ok, but this is a small market, so it does go both ways. I have bought a few items I would never use just to support a certain vendor or two in the hopes of getting what I did want eventually, but then again, I don't have to wait for my paycheck or go without bill money to purchase something (I would find a new hobby if that was the case)
I think it might be beneficial if vendors could see wishlist data to see what is popular to possibly help in the creation process.
I don't think my post got is being understood. I'm not saying you can't complain. I'm not saying you can't wishlist. I'm not saying you must buy everything the day it's released from the store.
I'm saying it's not fair to a PA to make statements in a thread like this and call it constructive feedback.
I don't think everyone here is claiming to give constructive feedback. Some of us are just whining/venting. In my case I'm just voicing my preferences, but primarily I'm discussing and debating. The only less or non-constructive criticism I've launched so far was my "vendors/freebie artists/blender artists/linux users/programmers act like it's easy, often in a condescending way" tirade.
I liked Rune. I would pick it up if it were priced after sale was about 13.00. That is probably the value to me, since I already have a number of female bodysuits with armor.... it isn't strictly sci-fi, and I might use it only a few times. That doesn't mean it isn't an amazing piece of work, I just have to consider usage. It is very distinctive. Probably not suitable for an everyday character. It is the outfit of an elite warrior, or villain or alien queen.
So for me Value= Number of uses I will get, utilitiarianness and number of times I will render.
I think it's worth a bit more than that considering the work that went into it. Though I'm a bit of a savings hog and generally look at that "-__%" number at the bottom of the box. Unless the item is by someone who almost never puts their stuff on sale, I'd probably wait until it was at least 60% off-- in this case, it's not about "what you get for your money/is it worth it" as opposed to "it's an item with this high a price tag" If it's something someone only puts on sale once a year or less, then I'd probably go for 40% off.
For low priced items, I sometimes find 45% to be sufficient, esp. if it's something I want right now. Of course I'm talking about the less-than-10-dollars category.
As I mentioned in another post, it seems with each new iteration of the Genesis concept, it has become less and less versatile as well as less compatible with older generation figures and shapes (particularly G3F with regards to skin maps). What we seem to be moving back towards is essentially a weight mapped Vicky "unimesh" figure (and eventually a weight mapped Michael one) that supports a more limited amount of mixing and flexibility (without the need for external add ons and conversion tools) of the original Genesis mesh..
Yup. Daz sold out. It's all about the "industry standard" now, and the fixed-budget hobbyists who favor backwards compatibiulity get thrown under the bus. But hey, Daz can make a lot more sales this way, since now everyone has to buy all-new textures and morphs, and poses now need a workaround, generally, as do G3F's mats now that 3Delight is being abandoned more and more-- it looks like we won't see any new shader sets for 3Delight.
Genesis 3 may very well be selling FAR better than Genesis 2 F did... but the industry model app users still complain about G2F's HD morphs not being portable, and also complain that she's "low poly" (the two go together, actually) They don't seem to have a problem with her textures however (something they WOULD DEFINITELY complain about had they been done like Gen4 and Genesis 1 & 2)
Its just one of those things. I don't gauge the value of an item based on how much effort a PA put into it. I'm not buying sole exclusive rights to the work in which I would consider the value of an item equivalent to the person hours put into it.
For me, I gauge the value of an item, based on whether I will like it and how much I will use it. I could find an item masterfully done, but if I'm only using it once or twice, then it's purchase price has to be lowered to a rate that will tempt me. Not everyone's temptation point is the same.
The challenge with virtual things, is people want to get a lot of money back for the time investment. There are quite a lot of older items in the store for example, that rarely go on sale, and for which I will probably never pay the asking price, because, the seller values the item too highly. If the price were re-adjusted I might buy and buy it. But I'm not buying an older m3 or v3 item for the price of something more modern. I'm simply not. I'm sure some of these items were awesome in their time, and while I might have limited use for it, it is no longer cutting edge.
Regardless, if I don't buy this set within a fair amount of time something newer and better, and possibly more affordable witll come my way. So... There is that to consider as well.
That's a major difference between the two of us. I don't know if I'm going to want to use it in the future or not, sometimes, but it's not going to stay there forever.
Granted, something like the MFD or Super Suit-- those I use a lot. The Supersuit isn't cheap, but it's super-duper versatile (which is why they sell so well), and what the folks here are clamoring for when they say they want a bodysuit.
As I said before, a lot of complaints I have seen about G3F's limited wardrobe seem to be a result of us all getting spoiled with G2F/M's debut-- they were easier to rig clothing for than Genesis 1, and the meshes character meshes were similar enough that the learning curve was probably the lowest it has ever been between generations.
We got seriously spoiled with G2F: On her first week, we already got the V4 shape and UV. I can't remember how quickly the MFD and hooded cloak came out for her, but I'm pretty sure it was within the first month. Sickleyield's helper products came out quickly as well. I think the medieval cloak pack also came out during this time, but I can't remember for certain.
G2M spoiled us even moreso-- within the first two weeks, we had the M4 shape + a whole bunch of Ravenhair fits (night guard, elven warrior, wolf king, hooded cloak) I think we had the Genesis UVs/shapes as well. Or maybe that was all within a whole month as well, my memory is typically rather poor.
WIth G3F OTOH, the only things we have so far are the Rune Outfit, a G2F~G3F pose converter, Shiny Sheets, Sickleyield's Fantastical Features, V4/M4/V6/M6 clones, Non-Sickleyield breast fixer, V7, Zev's Fit Control, Zev's Pose Builder, and the morphs+ set. No hooded cloak, no MFD, no sickle dress rig, no sickle breast fixer (though it's probably not needed as much as the previous generations), no Sickle Hat & Hair fixer, no Gen4/Gen5/Gen6 UVs or shapes/clones, no
I have to give major props to Zev though for the stuff he's already ported over. I mean DAYUM-- both Pose Builder AND Fit Control. I'm amazed that we even have THIS much content so far, honestly.
Someone complained about poses. I did a count, and this is the number by category as of today.
Pin-Up: 19
Everyday: 7 (7 vs 19?! Seriously?!)
Interacting Figures: 0
Combat and Fighting: 2 + 1
Expressions: 4
Hands: 1
Action/Sports: 3
Note that the "everyday" category overlaps with pinups. Oh, and that "+1" part is because one combat poses product is improperly categorized.
Looking at Genesis2 female by comparison, the poses were slow to be churned out-- the numbers didn't really pick up until Girl6 came out-- granted, the current product list for G2F is not accurate because Lunchlady left DAZ about a year later, and IIRC she mainly did pinups, and in large quantities.
Note that the current numbers for G2F product lineup-- Pinup 134 vs Combat 51. I'm not going to bother looking through all 444 products to count the everyday and action/sports ones.
Wow! You've done your research with poses. That is quite a lot. :-)
The thing is that this is not attitude. This is not emotion.
This is is simply business. This is supply and demand.
If you want certain items made, you compete against the dollars of others demanding other items. If you don't have money ready to go, then your requests lose out against those who have. It is just that simple.
PA are running businesses, not charities or popularity contests. That's something a lot of you need to hear. If a product meets your demand and enough sales are made, then more of that item are made because sales is something that is concrete and tangible, not wishlists and promises of sales months from now. I and other PAs have told people many times how we measure what is popular, so it is not necessary to get upset about it. It is what it is. If you cant afford certain items, that is ok and no one is forcing you to buy everything; however, sales in intro periods still determine what is made and that is really the point whether you agree with it or not.
An example of this is when some friends went out to this popular club on a busy night. There was a huge crowd outside and they were only picking certain people to go in. Everyone wanted in, and they announced only people with exact change could get in at that time. A lot of people just had credit and debit cards and I whipped out the money for me and my friends and they pointed us in around everyone else. That is how it works sometimes.