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As for costs... have you seen the prices at Turbosquid? And that's for unrigged and often untextured content.
Samples:
http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3d-model-lockheed-electra-12a/748567 ; $325 for a prop airplane.
http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/realistic-butterflies-3d-model/550814 ; $350 for 9 butterflies
http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3d-international-space-station-iss-model/647115 $900 for a model of the International Space Station.
I honestly think the entire Poser and DAZ communities severely UNDER price their work, but that's just me. :D
I for one understand that. Which is why I have to buy most things later and not on intro price or within the first week. And where I understand that this is how most PAs make a living. I ask that the PAs understand that we as customers have to feed our kids and pay bills as well and when we buy we are spending our hard earned money and you are making your hard earned money even if it is months down the road. I respect the time and effort you put into a creation and that you love doing it or you wouldn't do it. I just ask for the same respect in return.
Do I like when things are on sale? Of course anyone who buys anything does. Do I always wait for sale? No.
I think we are going to find that the PAs and the Customers have the same conserns about paying bills keeping people feed and hoping to have a little extra at the end of the week.
Please read this post. Quote: "With regards to gender specific items, this market is around 80% male customers. Yes it is that one sided. So it's a no brainer female content sells way higher than male content, ..."
Again, that is being offered as an explanation of why skimpwear sells. PAs don't say "the market is 80% male, so I'd better make skimpwear", they see the data that skimpwear sells far more.
Also, I hope buyers remember DAZ takes a cut. When you see a product at 30% off, the PA has already taken a hit by splitting with DAZ. Rev that up to 50% and the vendor is being generous.
Well, you'll see a LOT of Genesis and Genesis 2 showcased on my Art Studio thread, and always will. I own a very large amount of the content that has been made
On thread 6 and not stopping anytime soon. I hope vendors keep making what they're comfortable with- if they like Genesis, go for it. Genesis 2? Great. Thank you to the vendors who keep plugging away at the figure they do best. Poor V4 M4 kinda got left in the dust, and other sites seem to be selling a lot of their clothing. (It must be selling if new stuff keeps being offered, based on the arguments in this thread.)
This is certainly true, I have only been buying for around 3 years or so, and the size of the discounts has definitely improved just in that period. Just recently when some DO's were offered at 90% off I bought an order of 29 items for just 25 dollars, representing a sale price of less than a dollar each on average, and most of those were not PC items.
...yeah, and as I mentioned, I've seen some products there that were of pretty poor quality go priced much higher than what we pay in the store here for what I consider models that are just as well crafted. Look at the selection of grand piano models. A good number are badly proportioned, or have no interior details, and a few don't even have keyboards that are correct, yet some of these sell for two to three times the price of Ness' wonderfully detailed Harpsichord (which also has a fully rigged keyboard and includes two different textures, texturing ,templates as well as a set of basic poses for the performer - all for only 13.95$).
It might be virtual content, but somebody put a lot of time and effort into making it. They deserve to be paid for that.
I don't think anyone is advocating items should be free.
Agreed. As usual, this is becoming one of those threads where those that don't produce (consumers) have a hard time understanding the mindset of those that do (vendors) and vice versa.
I agree with Valandar also having contributed to models that are sold at Turbosquid and a few other 3D sellers, mesh in this community is really affordable when compared to normal 3D sellers and with more options usually. Why do you think so many wannabe game developers prefer using DAZ assets over other places, it's way more affordable.
look at all the most popular game mods
most revolve aound sexier characters with or more often without any clothing
is human nature and what sells
...and at TS, many of the models have specific licence restrictions, particularly those that are exact digital replicas of existing products or items ehich fall under the Intellectual Property Rights of a third party. For example, the aforementioned Kawai EX piano is protected under an "editorial use agreement" which permits only news agencies to freely use the model in film, digital, or print format and pnly for journalistic/newsworthy purposes. The model or it's rendered likeness cannot be used for any commercial purposes such as games, advertising, T-shirts, etc... So as I am not a news service, under TS's Editorial Content restriction, I cannot use the Kawai Piano in scenes that will appear my story.
Even content that is just under a Royalty Free licence may still require special permissions from third party IP holder if it contains copyrights or trademarks (which is negotiated separately between the content purchaser and the IP holder, not the modeller), in order to be used for a commercial purpose.
IP is quite a sticky wicket to deal with.
So it's not just price, but licencing terms as well that steer indie game developers away from the "professional" content vendors houses and to ones like Daz, Rendo, and Cornucopia, where at most, they only need to purchase a game developer's licence.
I think a lot of people are taking things at a very personal level in many of the posts I see in this thread. This is one of the few professions where creators of products engage with customers to this extent. Certainly we don't want to say things that will make our customers feel angered or bad or anything negative. Each person, PA and customer alike is a human being with their own economic problems, great or small. I keep hearing customers say things like "I know I don't matter to you because I don't buy when things first come out" and I hope people look at their words carefully. It isn't true that customesr don't matter. Of course you matter. Without you, we don't sell. I am truly grateful for every customer that purchases from me and delight in seeing them use the products to further their own artistic dreams. It's a blast. It is also generally very true that the first 24-48 hours is the most money the product will ever make. It shears off quite dramatically after that and through the product's life in back catalog. This 48 hour period is a strong determinant, for me and others, whether I tackle a product like the one I've released again, soon, or at all. Like you, I have to pay my bills. However, the good news is that most PAs that make products, that require a bit to a lot more work, often do it because they really would like to, but because they may not sell well, do them few and far between, because "those other things" too often are what actually pay the bills. What I advise is keep letting us know what you'd like...there is always a good chance there is someone who may decide to tackle your request. You're not being told you have to buy when something comes out; we understand your reasons. At the same time, it's not personal if because we didn't see a product sell, when it came out, that we choose not to make it again or for a long time. In the long run, when you buy, if you do, is important whether in the first 48 hours or anytime after that because you still add to our bottom line at the end of each long day. It is just that those first 48 hours say success or failure for us. That's all that is being said. Not as a condemnation or as a threat...just as an explanation of why you sometimes see less of the things you may want versus "those other things". As always, I will continue to do my best, and i know how much pride my fellow PAs take in their own work as well, to bring you what we hope you will want and use.
It's difficult to be told that there is absolutely no way to communicate or impress on PAs what kind of things you want, because you almost never buy within the first 48 hours.
Such is life, I guess, but I think everyone can understand the frustration.
(I also realize how frustrating it can be to be treated like your hard work and struggle is unimportant to your customers)
It would be nice to bring in some new additional PAs that would be willing to concentrate on making less mainstream content (bikinins, dresses, white skin textures) like TheAntFarm. If they can go in not expecting to make a fortune (not that most PAs do anyway, no matter how hard they work) and do it more because they like what they're making, it could be beneficial for everyone. I've recently been watching a young guy on deviantArt that makes cute creatures with Blender and cranks them out like there's no tomorrow. Maybe DAZ needs to reach out to potential PAs more often rather than waiting for them to come to us - because many of the ones who come to us seem to want to make the same products.
I'd do it. But... every time I open Zbrush to make clothes, a monster emerges on the canvas. And another couple hours of time are gone and another toothy, clawed beast with spikes and a dreadful disposition slithers its way off the desktop to devour some poor plebian.
That said I never tire of bikinis and hot girls (and guys).
I believe DAZ does reach out to people they happen to see in the community to broker through them. However, their expectation is still going to be the same: they expect to sell product, and those 48 hours are going to be even more important to them, as low sales will discourage them from producing items.of the same type. And a lot more newer vendors quit because their sales are low at the start. Sales is still going to be a strong determiner of what is made in the future of their catalogs. Older PAs usually advise the newer ones to be patient with their sales in the long run, but like everyone else, they have expenses they need to take care of as well.
...nm
...you just mentioned one of my favourite PA's I totally love AntFarm's work (and have quite a bit in my library) form the whimsical "Never" series, to his robots with distinct personality, to his gritty post-apocalytic sets. Another is Jack Tomalin. who besides coordinating teh PC, creates wonderful and sometimes dark architectural works a good portion of which are PC items.
If only I could grasp the concept modelling without the distractions of unstable software that crashes every ten to fifteen minutes, or has a learning curve as steep as El Capitan just to figure out how to use it's UI, tools, and get around it's setup. I'd love to model aircraft, vehicles, buildings, and other props. Sadly the good modelling software costs an arm and a leg and on a fixed income is pretty much out of reach (Modo used to be "kind of" affordable, once, but today is just about as ridiculously priced as C4D)
...then there's the talk I've been hearing of Autodesk possibly taking it over.
"I'd do it. But... every time I open Zbrush to make clothes, a monster emerges on the canvas."
That is not a bad thing. :) In fact it's exactly what I was talking about; we need more variety and people always seem to like creatures.
"And a lot more newer vendors quit because their sales are low at the start. Sales is still going to be a strong determiner of what is made in the future of their catalogs. Older PAs usually advise the newer ones to be patient with their sales in the long run, but like everyone else, they have expenses they need to take care of as well."
That's all true of course, and that's why I mentioned these 'specialty' PAs would have to have low expectations going in. They'd do it not to try and earn a living from it, but to earn a little extra money making things that they would probably make for themselves anyway. A lot of them probably would tire out, but some wouldn't, especially if what they made sold better than they expected. Nursoda is a good example of a vendor who made very quirky stuff and was still quite successful.
@KyotoKid: You can get Mudbox by subscription now, I think it's $9/month? The others are expensive of course (I would jump on Zbrush in a second if it were subscription), so it's probably either that or Blender if you're really on a budget.
Unfortunately that's not how businesses are run. No business brings vendors in to be low sellers.
...isn't Mudbox more for sculpting than polygon/vertex modelling? Also not into working in the cloud for several reasons.
I tried Blender several times and basically gave up out of frustration as I just can't seem to wrap my brain around it's UI and organisation. It feels as if it is set up backwards In that you need to know a lot of the "advanced tricks" (that you would normally learn in time while working with a new programme) right out of the box.
I'm not the only one who would like to see Daz do something with Hexagon, such as bringing it into the 64 bit world to get rid of the severe memory limit it has to function under, fixing the instabilities, and improving it's UV mapping tools. The UI and toolset is so nice an elegant and doesn't "get in the way" of the programme's primary task, 3D modelling, like Blender's seems to do. If it weren't for all the instability, I'd probably be a PA here by now (I originally purchased it seven years ago when it cost a lot more than it does today)
3:30 AM and I can't sleep... :\
"Unfortunately that's not how businesses are run. No business brings vendors in to be low sellers."
Not in the real world, no. However, 3D marketplaces are full of merchants who probably don't sell more than a dozen of any particular release. Unless things changed a lot since I was a vendor here, it doesn't cost DAZ much to bring on new PAs and they get a percentage of everything sold (or buy the products outright). As long as DAZ retains some quality control when it comes to what actually gets released (which they surely will), what harm does it do to have more vendors making a variety of products, even if they're not especially successful?
And how long do those low selling products stay in any brokerage before they are removed? It's the same in brokerages as in the real world. I think I was the only person that bought this brand of A1 steak sauce... a few months later it was discontinued. A1 isn't going to keep that brand on the shelf if only a few people are going to buy them, just as brokerages don't keep low paying products or vendors in the store for long.
Again, you're using a real-world comparison where products take up space and require the store to purchase and dispose of them when they don't sell. That is not a problem for us.
DAZ's first products for Victoria remained in the store here for what, over a decade? What harm did it do?
It was said multiple times in this thread that a PA's products sells the most in its first 48 hours. That other big marketplace has a rule that if a product doesn't sell any copies in a month, it's removed. That could work just fine for filtering out stuff that doesn't sell at all here after the initial release if you really feel it's necessary to cull unpopular products.
Still Rendo has a clearance section for low selling products, but the point is still the goal is not to accept vendors with the intentions of being low sellers. No business does that, 3D or not. And no vendor sells with the intention of being low sellers.
do you have link for this guy - plase
I don't completely disagree with you Male-M3dia, but I'd still like to know what harm it does to bring on a vendor that might only earn a quarter of what you do. It's still money for DAZ, money for him, and more variety in the store.
@bigh: this guy: http://smashingrenders.deviantart.com/ ; All cute stuff (mostly bears and Nintendo fan art), but he's extremely fast, can animate beautifully, and even does affordable commissions.
You have to supply webspace for the product, you have to supply bandwidth (may it be for actual downloads) or for the images/text on the website for the product. You have to keep it in your registry, and make sure it shows up in some sales and not in others. For some of these tasks, you have programs and hardware, for other you have people, but in both cases, it's creating costs.
This is the non-physical shelf-space, which are costs to the company hosting the product, in this case DAZ3D. They only cover these costs when they actually sell a product. No sale, no money, but still "shelf-costs".
Of course, for the single product, this isn't gargantious costs. But if you have several thousands, or even more, this adds up. I assume, that would be a reason why the other big market place culls non-sellers after a while - they are simply too expensive.
Just a thought, you know.