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I think it's important to remember that it isn't a matter of a PA making one outfit, it's a PA making a stream of products which (hopefully) will earn them a living (and a lot of PA's don't make enough selling content to quit their day job). There's a lot of content that doesn't suit my needs, but if it's a choice between a PA creating (and I'm just pulling numbers out of thin air here):
choice a: 12 outfits a year working full time as a PA, of which 8 are skimpy (or unrealistic, or what I don't want for other reasons) and 4 are things I can use, or
choice b: 6 outfits a year working part-time at another job to pay the bills, of which 3 are things I can use, or
choice c: only making stuff I like, but going out of business after a year because they can't afford to even do that part-time,
I think choice a is better both for me and for the PA. It's frustrating to see outfit after outfit that I have no use for, but obviously more people want those outfits than want what I want, and while I can't say I don't sometimes complain about their tastes, in all fairness I know a lot of people would probably roll their eyes at my tastes. And I know it's worst with a new figure, because there isn't much available yet, and it probably takes longer to make stuff as the PAs have to learn the new technology, so the ratios are even more skewed.
Of course, I still use Genesis 1 99% of the time, so what do I know.
...the downside to staying with an older model is PAs tend to move on to the next new one.once it's introduced and scale back on creating cloting for the previous one. This wasn't so much an issue for Genesis and G2 as Both Gen 3 and 4 clothing sould still work if you had the body legacy shapes and Zev0 provided a G2 fit clone for Genesis shortly after G2F's introduction. Genesis items could be autofit ot G2 as well and MallenLane provided a V4/M4 autofit/UV clone. As I mentioned, with G3F, only G2F items can be autofit (the same will most likely go for G3M) meaning we either have to wait for a Genesis (as well as a V4) to G3F shape/clone to be released or go through a number of extra steps first fitting from Genesis to G2F to G3F (and reverse once there eis a G3 to G2 fit clone) while hoping that during hte expanded process, there isn't anything "lost" in the translation.
I do admit I am curious about trends in buying, and do sometimes wonder if skimpwear sells because it is skimpwwear, or if it is (comparatively) inexpensive and the only items available.. I concede, obviously sexy stuff sells, but at some point I think people will have their fill especially of the lower quality consumer grade content, and be interested in more detailed and more complex items.
Do new customers drive the trend then?
Genesis 1 came with autofit clones for 1 generation back (4th Generation); autofit support for 3rd generation were paid add-ons.
Genesis 2 came with autofit clones for 1 generation back (Genesis 1); autofit support for 4th generation were paid add-ons.
Genesis 3 comes with autofit clones for 1 generation back (Genesis 2); I expect PA's to come out with autofit support for Genesis 1, and probably 4th generation as well.
...however it seems the "pool" of shapes appears to diminish with each successive iteration of the Genesis figure is released. There was far more content available for Gen 4 only because the figures were around for a longer time than Genesis or G2 (and other 3D stores tended, and continue, to support Gen 4 more than Genesis due to the fact Gen 4 works in Poser without requiring any conversion). Look at how much "new" Gen 4 content is still being released at sites like Rendo, RDNA, Fantasy Attic, and Evilinnocence for Gen 4. When was the last time any "new" Gen 4 clothing was seen in the Daz store?
When G2F/M were released only V4 and M4 had clones available and teh other figures along with Gen 3 were ignored completely.
This is partially why I am concerned that possibly Gen 4 might not have fit clones.
That's a good point. If someone made a good V4 or M4 item, would DAZ even put it up for sale?
The term "skimpwear", even though it is accurately descriptive, is a little bit unfair becuase it is almost always used derisively, and I think unjustly so.
Let's face it. "Skimpwear" sells partly because these models (whether male or female), from early forms in Generation 4, then beginning in earnest from Genesis 1 thru Genesis 3, look GOOD naked. Some of them look VERY GOOD naked. Okay, not the zombies.
Now, I'm not going to be doing all-naked art here, but being honest with myself, I have to admit that the human form is beautiful to begin with, and at their most basic, the human form and these models are all as naked as Adam and Eve were. These meshes, models, characters, and their textures are all getting better and better between and with each new generation, whether they are stylized or "realistic". The proof for that is in their naked form, even if it's "50% grey".
I have said it many times that I am a leg man. The ladies in my images, or at least some percentage of them, will probably show some leg from time to time. Maybe my visual "trigger" is what made me notice the "folded-flat" joints of past models (inside of elbows/back of knees/funky ankles that looked like a tube of toothpaste folded in half) and how they were not compelling. In fact, they were a huge disappointment for me, but good news! They are mostly fixed since Genesis 1, and getting better with each new Genesis version, so now the arms and legs look as beautiful as the real-deal. I've waited far too long, so I'm going to show them off!
Oh sure, some of my girls will wear long pants and long dresses. So I will need options, of course. But I'll never ever feel that there's no room for another tiny yellow polka-dot bikini in my runtime now and then.
The human form is indeed a beautiful creation. I embrace that, because I'm a hugger.
P.S. All of my models live in Florida, the "deep South" (which is actually North of Florida!), South Texas, and Southern California, so they don't buy coats. Just kidding; they really like to go skiing in Aspen!
You must really LOVE the new Genesis 3 shape as much as I do... I would point out that you want to hug her because she has come to look so real.. Is that Sophia? Make skimpwear but make it look like something somebody would actually wear. Make it real.
...but but, Zombies were people too....
If it was up to Daz' current quality standards, and was of a well selling genera, probably.
You forgot, hipsters, boyshorts, and about 50 other cuts that fall in between. And trust me when I say there's a whole lot more bra variety in the real world that hasn't been modeled yet either, (up until recently I swear there wasn't a single balconette bra, which I'm pretty sure is against the Geneva Conventions). My main problem with a lot of the bra sets has always been that I found them kind of fussy, rather than sexy. Also there's a lot of them that look like they definitely don't have enough support, but that's another problem entirely.
Thank you for clairifying, I can see how I misread your previous post. Sorry if i seemed to fly off the handle. You're welcome too.
I dont expect skimpwear to make sense anymore then I expect women to fight in heels. I just don't see the point of vocalizing dislike over stuff I won't buy when I just wont buy it. PAs have access to sales numbers, we can see how well it does and judge from that as to whether or not it was worth it.
I don't believe so. No one can please everyone. Constructive criticism can be helpful, but if you are too concerned about what people think of your work you will never finish. The majority of users dont post in the forums as it is and even those who do, you dont see 101 threads about why they didn't buy a certain product.
To be fair, that hat looks pretty nice :p
There's a good security guard one, too.
If I were a PA, I don't think I'd pay attention to most of what is said in this thread. Much of it is just venting and that's fine. But some of what is said is unrealstic.
People have talked about how its unfair to respond "Learn how to model" because a) it's difficult to do b) the software is expensive and c) they are a hobbyist. Fair points. What I don't think is fair to then dismiss those same points and expect someone else who has learned how to model, who has bought expensive software and made a dedicated effort to create their visions to cater to vaguely defined ideas of things others might buy. Make sure it looks realistic, has all sorts of adjustment morphs and details - but make sure it's dirt cheap. Then maybe it'll get wishlisted to buy somewhere down the line.
Also this means within the intro period. So wishlisting is exactly the same as not buying it and plays into a PA making similar items in the future.
I think you've hit the nail right on the head. What I thought was interesting was when an outfit that probably met the needs stated in this thread, it was immediately wishlisted or said it was too expensive. Takes a lot of work to work with a lot of mesh than bikinis especially with movement morphs so yes it will cost more. So you can see now why "skimp wear" is made. It gets bought in higher quantities in the intro period.
...however, if you don't have the money in your account at the time there is nothing wrong with placing something on a wishlist. Being on a fixed income with specific payment dates, I'm not about to risk being slapped with an overdraft fee from the bank which neither benefits me, Daz, or the PA. .
I have actually have paid full price for items I placed on my wishlist on a number of occasions as when I do finally have the funds put aside, the products usually no longer have the 30% "new release" discount, yet still often count as "new releases" for the purposes of coupons and promotional codes.
As to not purchasing something because it does not fit the genre you work in, I see nothing wrong with that either. It doesn't mean I don't admire the workmanship that went into it, I simply have no need for it in my library/runtime.
None of us would want someone to spend food or rent money on us. We understand and we dont hold it against anyone for not purchasing cause they need the money for real life needs. I think we have all paid full price for something at least once that we really wanted. I have never bought stuff just to have it so its also understandable that not everything released will be purchased by everyone. I understand what Tim is trying to say about the wishlist. Its kinda disheartening to have someone comment that an item is wishlisted since not everythign that is wishlisted is purchased. Not saying it applies to everyone but wishlists dont mean sales unfortunately. Thank you for sharing your reasons, they are all valid and nothing to appoligize for. I dont envy those on fixed incomes.
I am also frustrated with the "skimpware" that is produced by the TERABYTE, it seems. This is particularly frustrating for me as I tend to deal with a lot of historical illustrations (primarily the Old West, but I now have projects for US Cavalry (very similar to the OW stuff, but enough differences to make it interesting), pirates and superheroes). There are some other gems out there, hiding in the backwaters of the Daz site, if you look for them. The recent Horror collection for the teenagers (West Park?) was nice, and I just cleaned up on a lot of 50s styles in today's Daz Flash sale. There are also some decent sorta-historicals with Pirate's Cove (it's a LOT of fun, but not 100% historically accurate -- but I'm not complaining, as I tend to go for "reel" vs "real" in my work). There's also the B-Movie stuff with the mad doctor, evil nurse and a variety of stuff like that. Horror seems to be fairly well represented here.
VENDORS: I fully recognize why you release skimpy products to make a quick buck when a new figure is launched, and I would do the same. But you should know this is why I'm spending almost all my money on clothing and props for G1, G2, M4, V4 and I still occassionally buy the super-discounted item for M4 and V3 (bought an old-age pack for V3 just last week because it was on sale). Today I actually considered buying V7, but decided not to invest in it until much later when, hopefully, there will be some outfits I can use for my work.
Best of luck to all of you, by the way! I do see some great designs and clothing in our collective future.
I do find some items that I hesitate about, and I would call them in the "I'm not sure yet" list. Then there is other times that I do call an item in the "Will buy" list, implying that come the third regardless of price, I'm going to get it (Unless it is yanked out from under me before the third, lol). The tos side of that, is finding a way to use the items in a render, and that I think speaks louder then the sales. How else can we better show our appreciation for a PA's creation, then to show them an incredible scene with there item(s) in it.
As for outfits and styles, I tend to want something that fits without question, to go under skirts. Especially for renders posted here at daz. Granted there is quite a few items for generation 6 that suite that quite well. Lets just say, "I'm not sure yet" with generation 7. As others pointed out, what sells is what's made, and what I was looking for, I didn't notice yet. It may take some time for the Hollywood billionaire and battle-bikini craze to wind down a tad, lol.
As some one joked about in there sig before the forum upheaval. M5 Pro Suite comes with a dress, and a Troll, hmmm. I am not with "M5 Pro", in that I have been to busy to even venture into the realm of cross-dressing and visiting the red light district of lower middle earth, lol. I prefer to hang out with humans and elves instead, lol.
Now that all said, I do enjoy working with G3F, and the posing controls are incredible. A vast improvement over the movement of some dials for G2F. And there is already a few dresses in my 'Will buy' list.
All the "skimp wear" issues are well documented. Though, when it comes to G3, have patience. The more complex the clothing, the more complex the production. I will gladly wait for someone to develop a clothing set that has the proper morphs, adjustments, and moves; that is the tedious part that only the dedicated and seasoned will create. Creators, please, take the time to create those boring details. I remember with V3 and V4 some very detailed outfits which one could manipulate to suit the image. It seems, now, that outfits are "super conforming" and won't allow for an open jacket to drape. or, a skirt to properly flair, swirl, or even move. Such is so that skimp wear sells because it doesn't require 25 hours to adjust to a pose. Let's go back to the flexibility of the V3 MFD. Don't create "uni-outfits" that are shoes, socks, slacks, shirt, and whatever that won't move with the character. Create stand-alone items that I can combine, mix, and modify... let alone pose... as I see fit. Take your time, do it right... do it well... and I will gladly pay full price for your product. The joy of D/S is that I create the image I see... not the preconceptioon of the model creator (that goes for props, scenes, and models)... Too many creators are minimizing the creativity of their clients by limiting the ways they individiualize the content. Since many of us wish to produce unique artwork, why should we spend out money so that we may emulate / duplicate the modelers' vision?
/rant...
I'm really, really sorry, but right now I am broke. Flat out, have zero in the bank account broke.
How am I supposed to get anything in the Intro Period if I don't have the money to do it? Why should I spend $30 on something that may be in the general Category I want, but I will never actually use just to maybe provide enough sales for the PA to not give up on it? (I'm not actually referring to Arki's latest outfit with this last question, but other products where I've seen this)
This is what I really find Frustrating. I DON'T HAVE THE MONEY to support every outfit I want. I DON'T HAVE A CHOICE but to Wish list things, and you know what, I Wish list a whole heck of a lot more than I will ever buy, because I keep hoping that someday, I can.
I'm sorry, but I've had enough of this attitude that I'm supposed to somehow come up with HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS on a regular basis, and spend half of it on stuff that only meets one out of several cateogries and that I will NEVER USE.
I wish I could buy everything I want within 24 hours of it showing up in the store, I really do. But that's even less realistic than expecting guy-stuff to take off, or skimpwear to stop showing up. It's not going to happen, and I really, really resent being essentially told I should bankrupt myself, or else be called a hypocrite. I'm not a hypocrite for wishlisting stuff I can't afford, and anyone who thinks otherwise had better get over themselves.
NEVER apologize for your "status" as a customer! We all purchase what we can afford, given that which we need to be creative. Non-pro's (like me)... those who are hobbyists... have limitations. We have a budget ... limits on what we buy. DAZ, however, is a vendor, they will present that which will draw us to buy. That's our consumer society. No fault, no foul; but... DAZ must realize that the majority (it seems) are hobbyists, not professionals. Perhaps they could "survey" wishlists and put those on sale, irrespective of genre or vendor. Today's Flash sale was indicative of that ideal... as many are. But, We are a vulnerable group as we buy on "spec". "Gee, that looks like something I'll use later." So, we put it on a wishlist, or, buy it and put it in our runtime... it might be months before that product see's the light-of-day.
One thing I've found... anything I buy on first release, goes on deep discount 3 to 6 months later. Buyers have patience.
Unfortunately, this is not the first thread where I've seen people essentially told "I don't care how good your reasons are, if you don't buy *everything* that might maybe kinda sorta meet your stated requirements - even if you can't afford it, don't actually need it and will not actually use it because it doesn't fit your prefered genres - immediately, you're a lying hypocrite who doesn't actually want X"
And I'm tired of it.
And yes, that is exactly how some specific posters are coming across to me, some of whom have come across this way before.
But you're right. I shouldn't have to appologize for not having the money to rush out and get everything right away.
Prices have gone up significantly recenlty. I can't afford a 20 dollar outfit, or some of the new 40 evironment sets which are being released. I haven't bought many gen 3 pose sets, either, or gen 3 clothing.
I refuse to apologize for not buying your stuff. Just like I don't apologize to authors on amazon for not buying their books immeadiatly. That's just the way it is.
It seems like even if I do buy PA's products early to 'prove it sells,' then I still hear that 'men's stuff doesn't sell' or "non skimpwear doesn't sell." Even though, yeah I bought it. So my sale means nothing either way.
I'm buying stuff I need, and wishlisting stuff I don't need immeadiatly, or cannot afford, because the price is too high. That's just the way it is.
I honestly believe they were talking about the most vocal people in this and many other threads posting time and again about skimpwear, lack of skins, wrong characters, and everything thing else and then not supporting something that comes out. I doubt that was a general knock on people wishlisting things.
I know for me, if I can't afford to shop, I'd save my complaints about the choices until I was ready to spend. I made a comment in the Eva 7 thread about the choices in the Pro bundle because I WAS ready to spend and only wound up buying Eva and a few other things because the Pro bundle didn't have what I would use.
Like I said, I don't think their comments were directed at everyone in general.