The [Disco Chives] Misplaced Parrot Complaint Thread

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  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,942

    it is fascinating how differently our brains are wired

    I know many people without an inner voice that narrates when you read

    quite a few of them are dyslexic too, when one I knew read stuff her lips moved, they don't hear a famous person or actor's voice when reading an article interviewing them etc like I do

    or get earworms stuck in their heads

  • beregarberegar Posts: 269
    edited March 3

    WendyLuvsCatz said:

    I think there is more to this as I knew someone online who had your lack of a mind's eye as well as face blindness not even recognising her own husband unless he spoke or wore clothing she knew.

    Yet she is very artistic 

    what she does excell at is storytelling with very descriptive details as that is how I believe she recalls stuff in her imagination.

    associating things with other things seems very important 

    otherwise I cannot help sadly as I am the opposite daydreaming like Walter Mitty to the point of even endangering myself driving or running into lampposts 

    (I no longer drive but still sometimes distract myself badly on the footpath, you probably wouldn't run into some poor stranger so definitely advantages for both brain wirings)

    Luckily I don't have face blindness. It's just the visualisation part I have trouble with. I'd like to think that I'm also good at written storytelling and even more so when it comes to technical fantasy writing, as I like writing fantasy scenarios, and I'm in the middle of writing a customized d20OGL based ruleset AND a campaign setting around it.

    It's not the imagination part I've trouble with, it's the visualization. Maybe this makes no sense but for me "imagination" has nothing to do with mental images. I thought it was jus a visual metaphor based on people seeing things with eyes in real life, like the "mind's eye" and not something people actually see in their head - or maybe inspired by dreams since I still see dream imagery (because apparently it's produced by a different brain process).

    I used to be avid reader. I have read Lord of The Rings like 11 times when I was a kid but this largely changed when the visual novels and computer games advanced to a stage where they actually produced impressive visuals. I get much more out of them than any book with text only.

    It's the same for 3D stuff. I build 3D scenes based on a transcript in my head. Like "Camp in a forest where a weary ranger sits next to a fire, sipping tea from a mug". I don't need any visual imagery to construct that. I know the elements that go in it and I know how the character should look without having an image popping in my head because there are a lot of associations with each word in the short description. For example "weary" invokes other words like "sagging posture, hanging head, partially closed eyes". A cup of tea invokes words like "slightly tanned liquid with maybe a few herbal leaves in it because we are talking about a fantasy herbal and not modern tea".

    Where the variabililty comes is that do I also associate weary with a rugged old man with a bushy beard because it goes together with a ranger (a stereotype of a fantasy ranger) or perhaps a hooded aragon-style figure. This can change in the middle of the creation process since I don't have a fixed reference point.

    I can get stuck into this conceptual world as easily as you can into your imaginary. For example concerning the previous systemic writing I often focus on the flow of words, sentence structure and the *tone* and keep iterating them in my head while letting my body autopilot the tasks (i.e. doing work) that don't demand much mental effort or focus. I often do this while I drive or walk work to a point I can't remember anything about the trip itself.

    Post edited by beregar on
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,942
    edited March 3

    I do see actual images but I cannot say they are accurate, not like a photograph

    AI art probably is closer to what I see cheeky

    a lot of misremembering and embellishment goes on in my brain at least

    don't get started on the dreams I have surprise who needs drugs

    Post edited by WendyLuvsCatz on
  • beregarberegar Posts: 269
    edited March 3

    LeatherGryphon said:

    I'm not an artist, I don't visualize images, I imagine the possibility of the image.   I can remember what an elephant is supposed to look like, and I can analyticaly plan a scene with one, but I don't see it until it exists on paper or display.  It seems that my "visualization" skill is rooted more in music.  I go through periods of the day hearing familiar music, and even tinkering with it as it plays over and over in my brain.   Sometimes I get so twisted up in it that I have to find a distraction to break me out of the cycle of repetitions & variations.  I used to try to play some of my internal variations on piano, but was not very good at it, although perhaps a little better than my native stick-figure artistry.  To that end, Poser and DAZ came to the rescue for my illustration needs.smiley  

    Also, I don't remember people visually, but by voice and personality  And when close enough, by smell.  Those things I can do, but please, don't ask me to remember a name  Impossible.sad

    It sounds like there's a level of aphantasia there. It also has degrees which go from "full lack of mental images, not even in dreams" to "visualizing a blurry image". About 1-5% of people have it so it's not like it's terribly rare on a global scale, and the numbers might be even larger because the distinction between having it and not having is not always clear cut. Some just have poor visualization ability and many others go without realizing they have it, because it's not like your ability to visualize mental images comes up often. Those who have it don't question it and those who don't have it just think it's a metaphor.

    I should also point out that aphantasia usually means inability to visualize things in mind. Auditory aphantasia also exists but I can't recall if they are related at all. For example I have the "inner voice" and I definitely get ear worms but I've somewhat lacking ability to reproduce sounds in my mind. You know, when people say "I can hear my mother scolding me" after doing something they should have done sans the mother being present. I also assumed this was an auditory metaphor but maybe it is not?

    Edit: I should clarify that my inner voice is not some actor or a person talking. It's "the other me" talking to myself. You know, like you talking to yourself within your own mind but it still being separated from you, and not something you can control. I distinguish this voice from me reading aloud to myself in my mind, like I do when writing this text.

    Post edited by beregar on
  • beregarberegar Posts: 269
    edited March 3

    NylonGirl said:

    Anyway, I think it's interesting how much (being unable to fill the mind with images) would create (the ability to fill the mind with everything else). Maybe it's just as good. Or one of those "blessings in disguise". On the other hand, the people who talk about blessings in disguise are often the same kind who tell you there's no benefit to being rich over being poor. I suppose I've thouroughly fallen off this conversation wagon by now.

    Honestly I've no idea how much of a blessing or a curse it is. I can't get repulsed by someone telling me "visualize someone shoving a big steaming pile of ¤%#%¤ into your mouth". I mean the thought is disgusting but it's just words. There's no image, feel, smell or tactile sensation in any of that.

    This doesn't btw mean that I'm not afraid of ghosts and darkness - because I am. The things that lurk there that my mind conjures up are #"%# scary. Doubly so because you can't see them. Jump scares function perfectly well on me and if I watch a horror movie I don't sleep next night because my mind conjures up monsters in every corner, behind doors, in mirrors etc. They are just not *visual* monsters. They are just terrifying presences. Basically the fear of unknown.

    I also have weak recollection of my childhood and things that are in the past quickly fade away from my memory (oh, another visual metaphor?) which I guess can be a blessing? It's mostly the negative things I remember though - if I remember something.

    It doesn't feel like a blessing though...

    Post edited by beregar on
  • beregarberegar Posts: 269
    edited March 3

    Another sudden relevation - and maybe going even more off tangent. I wonder if my aphantasia is also one of the reasons why I write long posts (or paragraphs in general) about subjects that I don't have the word association model for - like this one.

    The way I create associations based on words means I've to clarify the sentences with a lot of words, because if I don't, then it brings up the wrong association. I'd imagine (without, you know, having the image) that if you can similarly associate words with images, you can just pull the image from your mind, and get the same result without as many words. What you can't do is put the image on a paper (or in this case on a forum post). This is not good for technical writing if you assume everyone just has the same mental image attached to the word.

    Words usually have clear definitions. Mental images almost certainly don't?

    By comparison when I write instructions about a subject I'm very familiar with, I tend to believe in "short is better because no one has patience to read long ones, and you can just pull all the missing information from that single word alone when you put it into context with the other words".

    This is how language works, right? I mean it's just not me?

    Post edited by beregar on
  • LeatherGryphonLeatherGryphon Posts: 11,263
    edited March 4

    On occasions, when coming down from under the influence of anesthesia in the hospital, I "space out" and actually see controllable images as if salt were sparsely sprinkled on a black piece of paper, with the salt grains forming dynamic images of what I was thinking about.  The most impressive was a two dimensional vision of a b/w flower garden with a door in the wall, then morphing into a 3D version and I opened the door and "walked" through, and then the scene turned into a pointillist version of the head of Einstein.  And as I thought of other subjects, I could make the image change deliberately, and could add motion to them.  Just white stars in a black field making images like a nightime drone b/w "fireworks" show.   One time when it happened, I mentioned it to the nurse and she got all worried, but I shoo'ed her away saying "During my hippie phase I had a lot of experience with hallucinations, and as hallucination go, these are quite fun".   These days, that's about as far as my internal visualizations go, black & white pointillist images... that have to be paid for by insurance.frown 

    However, that was nothing compared to my hippie psychedelic images(50 years ago), which were times when my internal visiualizations went into overdrive, but thankfully, never frightening, just distortions and illusions.  Under those conditions I've played card games where I could look at my hand and change what I see to whatever I wanted.  The internal images would override the real images.  I didn't really have five Aces in my hand, and the next minute it would be a Royal Flush or then just a jumble of nothing.  And you haven't lived until you've calmly walked over a sea of hallucinogenic snakes in your yard at night.surprise  The key is knowing that they are just illusions.  As is everything, on a deeper level(Aummm...).yes  So I can safely say that I am not incapable of "seeing" things in my mind, it just takes preparation and a nudge.frown

    Post edited by LeatherGryphon on
  • beregarberegar Posts: 269

    LeatherGryphon said:

    However, that was nothing compared to my hippie psychedelic images(40 years ago) which were times when my internal visiualizations went into overdrive, but thankfully, never frightening, just distortions and illusions.  Under those conditions I've played card games where I could look at my hand and change what I see to what ever I wanted.  The internal images would over ride the real images.  I didn't really have five Aces in my hand, and the next minute it would be a Royal Flush or then just a jumble of nothing.  And you haven't lived until you've calmly walked over a sea of hallucinogenic snakes in your yard at night.
    surprise  The key is knowing that they are just illusions (as is everything, but on a deeper level).yes  So I can safely say that I am not incapable of "seeing" things in my mind, it just takes preparation.frown

    Hmm. I've never taken drugs (or even been drunk) but I had visual hallucinations when I spent a month or so in 40 degree fever. Can't recall anything about them now since it was like 30 years ago. I just know I had them. I also used to game and after a week of 16 hour gaming sessions the game would continue behind my eyes when I closed them. This is probably the closest thing I can get to seeing images while awake other than in that nebulous state between sleep and wake.

    I think I had really vivid imagination when I was a kid but this was mostly in dreams and in that between space, when paintings would come alive, or there would be a light shining under a closed door and behind that closed door there was a green eyed doll. I also have a vague memory that I might have experienced mental images when I originally read Silmarillion and imagined the two trees but with fairies around them... though this might have been in a dream. I've had a few lucid ones long ago but nowadays my dreams are uncontrollable and I don't remember most of them.

     

  • LeatherGryphonLeatherGryphon Posts: 11,263

    I sometimes get into doing picture puzzles, and go at it for hours.  And spend a lot of time scanning for particular shapes of knobs & holes.  Then while making dinner I'll get a flash of a particular shape of knob or hole as I glance around the kitchen.  My brain is still looking for that damn piece.indecision

  • This is why I prefer reading non-fiction over fiction, especially things like fantasy or alien sci-fi. If there's not an image I can look up for reference, I have no idea what a thing looks like. I can read and retain the words that something is described as, and if I see it afterward can identify it clearly based on those words. But for the life of me, you cannot describe something to me and bring an image to mind.

  • LeatherGryphonLeatherGryphon Posts: 11,263

    Non-complaint: (so far) I've decided to catch up on the "Foundation" TV series on Apple TV.  Signed up for the one week free access to catch "Napoleon" and discovered that "Foundation" was there too, so I'm bingeing.  So far, "Foundation" has been entertaining, but not much like I remember from reading it a couple of times over the last 60 years (read the entire  7-book series twice)   But then I'm only about 5 episodes into the TV series.  There's so much more eye candy & visuals there, it's nice to have actual characters to help keep track of what's happening to whom, despite a couple of characters having changed sex from the book, but there's so much plot enhancement/massaging that it seems unfamiliar.  Will be curious to look up reviews of it and see what they do with the overall plot arch.

  • ShimrianShimrian Posts: 496

    @LeatherGryphon - if you haven't seen it yet, I highly recommend watching Silo on apple+ while you have the sub. It's also a book adaptation and a few things were changed to adapt to TV (since you can't get internal dialogue), but so far it's still very good and close to the books.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 40,656

    ...I have what's something of the opposite: synesthesia, whereby I experience more than a single sense simultaneously.  This usually manifests itself in seeing images, shapes, and colours while listening to music or example.  

    Before I got heavily into classical music a friend of mine used different symbols to analyse a work such as a sonata, concerto or fugue to help me better understand the structure  it didn't take long before I developed a pretty good sense of various compositional forms with little in the way of academic study.  When I began music theory I would fall back on this system which accelerated my understanding of more complex forms, styles, and harmonies..

    I rarely had trouble visualising things in my mind which carried into my traditional art purists often coming up with what "DA refers to for it's AO engine as "dream ups" but with a far more control over the results. I actually played around with it the other night and even setting rather precise and detailed parameters, the results never came anywhere close to matching the image I had in my mind. It was a fun little exercise (and I used up nearly a third of my" free" parameters"), but I just couldn't take it very seriously as none of the works felt like they were "my creations". Now for someone really good with words (and not a dyslexic like myself) it may actually bear more fruitful results (I would love to see what McGyver could come up with)

    Anyway yes it is tough at times as well as even a non musical sounds can evoke a colour or image.  Despite being dyslexic with regard to words (and not numbers), I have little trouble with "earwigs", In fact I can "play" an entire  symphonic work phase by phrase with the full instrumentation as if I am listening to it on a set of headphones   This sometimes keeps me awake at night, particularly when it is a composition of my own I have been working on   When working on a story or game scenario I sit back and visually play a given scene or sequence out in my mind and afterwards, a couple variations to see what makes more sense.  Translating that to words is another matter entirely.

    This makes me more of a visually minded person which again has its good and not so good sides.  There are times I get so frustrated trying to describe what I see with words that I wish I could directly share the visuals and sounds see and hear. 

  • beregarberegar Posts: 269
    edited March 4

    kyoto kid said:

    ...I have what's something of the opposite: synesthesia, whereby I experience more than a single sense simultaneously.  This usually manifests itself in seeing images, shapes, and colours while listening to music or example. 

    What surprised me is that people can actually have both aphantasia and synesthesia, and I've read (but can't cite the source) that people with aphantasia have higher tendency towards synesthesia and autism, but to my knowledge I've neither. At least I don't recognize any of the common signs of autism such as impaired social skills, or difficulties in communication, and definitely not the more extreme signs like stacking or body movements.

    I have a tendency towards liking routines, and I get easily overwhelmed by sounds, such as multiple people speaking (because my brain tries to follow all conversations simultaneously), but these are something I can consciously override with a bit of effort and changing routines doesn't bring me discomfort. Routines for me are there just so that I can autopilot through them and not put much focus into the "boring stuff".

    I wonder about people with the actual opposite of aphantasia - it's called hyperphantasia. It must be weird to be able to conjure entire real life scenes in your head to a point where you can move and rotate objects in your mind and even see how it affects the light and shadows. I can't even begin to imagine how it works.

    Post edited by beregar on
  • TJohnTJohn Posts: 11,039
    If I have something that doesn't hurt, I'd like to know what it is...
  • NylonGirlNylonGirl Posts: 1,558

    I think one strange problem this group might have is we all have such oddities about us that no one knows if they should believe half of it. And who knows if they should believe the other half?

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,942

    TJohn said:

    If I have something that doesn't hurt, I'd like to know what it is...

    hugs Tjohn very gently 

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,942

    I got my chair today

    they left out the instructions, I contacted customer support

    after I made this video they emailed me a PDF

  • TJohnTJohn Posts: 11,039

    TJohn said:

    If I have something that doesn't hurt, I'd like to know what it is...

    hugs Tjohn very gently 

    Thank you. Ow...
  • beregarberegar Posts: 269

    WendyLuvsCatz said:

    I got my chair today

    they left out the instructions, I contacted customer support

    after I made this video they emailed me a PDF

    ...and a box of chocolate chip cookies as an apology? Oh wait, you can't email those! You can only mail them (what a silly notion in this new era of AI). Nevermind! Carry on!

  • beregarberegar Posts: 269
    edited March 5

    Anyone else feels like living from a "paycheck to paycheck" even though they have a decent pay? I mean my income is quite a bit above average (for my country) and I still feel like all my money goes down the sink of "unavoidable living expenses" as of late.

    I'm currently in the "I want, WAH!" mood for a lot of stuff but I'm waiting for my paycheck - because I put most of the money from the previous one in reserve and will do the same for the next. For a good reason, too, as I'm hiring a contractor to replace the lower floor windows (3 in total) which cost like 3700€. This hopefully helps with the insane 450€-750€ monthly electricity bills that I've been "enjoying" this winter. The joys of owning an old house - and it's not even a big house! I mean I've got two air-source heat pumps but obviously those do very little when the temperature is -20 and below.

    I should have a pretty good idea where all the money goes, and I do! Because I budget and make plans! Hell, the car alone costs about 1500€/year in gas, mandatory taxes, mandatory insurance (I skipped the part the non-mandatory because my car is old, so if I crash it, I get nothing), mandatory check ups and so on. I pay more for the car just existing under my name than I do for driving it!

    Add the property taxes, home insurance, municipal waste bill, (very) small loan installments, water bills and the highly unpredictable electricity bills... and I'm like, what? Food prices have also gone up so much that 200€ no longer covers my monthly food and daily goods expenses (when averaged over a year).

    When I checked last year the average monthly expense was 1670€ which means that I'm still firmly on the plus side of things BUT I dare not go on any sort of extravagant spending spree, or have some form frivolous (but fun) summer vacation trip abroard, or my savings go the way of the Dodo - and every other year there seems to be some huge money sink which taps severely into those savings. Usually related to the house. Can't also forget that the income about halves when I retire - assuming we have any sort of government supported retirement by the time it happens to me.

    I dunno how people with actual small income do it. I guess they find someone to share the expenses with?

    /Rant

    Post edited by beregar on
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,942

    they make choices others may not need to make

    in my case I chose my chair and a TV I bought earlier over dentures and live with lots of missing teeth blush

    I am old enough with clear skin that  nobody thinks I am a meth addict at least wink

  • Sfariah DSfariah D Posts: 25,815

    I am currently unemployed so I don't have regualar bi-weekly paychecks.

    Also my housing is still up in the air.  I don't know if I am moving or not.  I can't find work until I find out if I am moving or not.  Part of me wants to move, but I am also afraid the next place won't be that great either.

  • beregarberegar Posts: 269
    edited March 5

    Sfariah D said:

    I am currently unemployed so I don't have regualar bi-weekly paychecks.

    Also my housing is still up in the air.  I don't know if I am moving or not.  I can't find work until I find out if I am moving or not.  Part of me wants to move, but I am also afraid the next place won't be that great either.

    Sorry to hear that! Unemployment is also a thing I constantly prepare for. I've worked for 24 years now (another twenty to go) and the first 15 were more or less working in part time jobs, and from contract to contract. The first 10 or so with a pitiful 1300-1700€/month pay (which is even less after taxes) with uncertain future about continuation of the contract. I finally lucked with a "permanent" contract but my company goes through labor negotiations pretty much every year nowadays, so who knows... We just finished one in December and now have another one coming up in March.

    I've a lot of catching up to do now that I actually have a decent salary... but I never know when my job will be the next one on the cutting board. All in the name of the almighty profit (may it be merciful on our wallets)!

    Always gotta prepare for the future misfortunes and make smart choices over the frivolous fun ones - that's my life summed up.

    (Also we usually get paid once a month here so you gotta plan for entire month in advance anyway and budget for the fixed expenses you know are coming)

    Post edited by beregar on
  • beregarberegar Posts: 269

    WendyLuvsCatz said:

    they make choices others may not need to make

    in my case I chose my chair and a TV I bought earlier over dentures and live with lots of missing teeth blush

    I am old enough with clear skin that  nobody thinks I am a meth addict at least wink

    That's oof. You shouldn't have to trade health for basic comforts. At least here the public health care (thanks to the wellfare state) still looks (if halfassedly) after people in that regard. The only "health" expenses that I've to worry about are OTC stuff like glasses, vitamin D-supplements (in winter) and LAB probiotics. Also my company has a decent healthcare plan which is further supplemented by (company paid) insurance I opted for in lieu of recreation money. Another reason to try to stay employed!

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,942

    beregar said:

    WendyLuvsCatz said:

    they make choices others may not need to make

    in my case I chose my chair and a TV I bought earlier over dentures and live with lots of missing teeth blush

    I am old enough with clear skin that  nobody thinks I am a meth addict at least wink

    That's oof. You shouldn't have to trade health for basic comforts. At least here the public health care (thanks to the wellfare state) still looks (if halfassedly) after people in that regard. The only "health" expenses that I've to worry about are OTC stuff like glasses, vitamin D-supplements (in winter) and LAB probiotics. Also my company has a decent healthcare plan which is further supplemented by (company paid) insurance I opted for in lieu of recreation money. Another reason to try to stay employed!

    Australia free healthcare but dental doesn't count 

  • AgitatedRiotAgitatedRiot Posts: 4,339

    So Bullet met the dog next door when he jumped into his yard—a 6-foot privacy fence—almost in a single bound. He caught the lattice at the top and climbed the rest of the way.

    20240305_103132.jpg
    4000 x 3000 - 3M
  • NathNath Posts: 2,732

    Not complaining: I just found out that Substance Painter is included in the Adobe plan I have from work. Niiiice....

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,942

    AgitatedRiot said:

    So Bullet met the dog next door when he jumped into his yard—a 6-foot privacy fence—almost in a single bound. He caught the lattice at the top and climbed the rest of the way.

    oh I hope this wasn't in a bad way crying 

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 40,656

    ...retired here on a meagre monthly pension that only sees one adjustment per year (and that is often offset by something like a rent increase or the power utility raising rates). Like Wendy I have healthcare fully covered. but it doesn't include dental or eye care.  I get a small stipend for groceries but that usually makes it only halfway to two thirds of the month  after that its out of pocket. I could lower my food bill and not purchase so much in the way of natural/organic items but then it mean eating a lot of over processed, and otherwise unhealthy junk.. 

    Hence my Daz purchases tend to be pretty light (though today I spent a of amount of 20$ and change as discounts worked out nicely to get a few things off the wishlist which included a couple Stonemason sets that have been "collecting dust"). Being that they reintroduced Double Tuesday tokens  it netted me 4 tokens for the next purchase.

    No "piled up" carts for me as I still stick to my routine of only purchasing items that I actually have a need for and will use.  

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