Bored about Bikinis, lingerie and underwear for female characters

bigh

SnowSultan said:

I don't completely disagree with you Male-M3dia, but I'd still like to know what harm it does to bring on a vendor that might only earn a quarter of what you do. It's still money for DAZ, money for him, and more variety in the store.

 

@bigh: this guy: http://smashingrenders.deviantart.com/   ; All cute stuff (mostly bears and Nintendo fan art), but he's extremely fast, can animate beautifully, and even does affordable commissions.

thank you !

Richard Haseltine

The thing that would help would be not an influx of nwe vendors but an influx of new buyers - more people buying content, even if the pattern of consumption matched that of the current market, would, make more niches viable.

Richard Haseltine

lee_lhs said:

You have to supply webspace for the product, you have to supply bandwidth (may it be for actual downloads) or for the images/text on the website for the product. You have to keep it in your registry, and make sure it shows up in some sales and not in others. For some of these tasks, you have programs and hardware, for other you have people, but in both cases, it's creating costs.

This is the non-physical shelf-space, which are costs to the company hosting the product, in this case DAZ3D. They only cover these costs when they actually sell a product. No sale, no money, but still "shelf-costs".

Of course, for the single product, this isn't gargantious costs. But if you have several thousands, or even more, this adds up. I assume, that would be a reason why the other big market place culls non-sellers after a while - they are simply too expensive.

Just a thought, you know.

Don't forget QA costs. Also, I suspect per-unit support costs would be higher for low-sellers as there would be fewer forum members with the item to offer help.

SnowSultan

Richard Haseltine said:

The thing that would help would be not an influx of nwe vendors but an influx of new buyers - more people buying content, even if the pattern of consumption matched that of the current market, would, make more niches viable.

 

Heh, no...it would mean PAs would crank out even more of the same sexy stuff because there would be more people buying them.

 

Well one thing we can all agree on; if vendors only make what consistently sells and there is no incentive to try anything new or bring on merchants who might be willing to try, things will never change. We will continue to get pinup poses, fantasy outfits with cutouts that even I cannot find a use for, and pasty-white skin textures until the cows come home. In a business sense, that's a good thing. For creative-oriented customers, it is not.

LeatherGryphon

I've given in to the to notion that "they make what sells", but let's not forget that "they make what's easy for them" too.  After one has made a few styles of something it's easy to just tweak and refit their existing line to keep cranking out new but nominally different items.  i.e. item XYZ no longer sells but change it a tiny bit, rename it, increase the price and one might have another winner.  Why build another house when all you need is new wallpaper or a new roof?  It works for electronic gadgets, why not pseudo clothes?  I don't necessarily blame the PAs, a lion has a hard time becomming a vegetarian.  However, I do shake my head in dismay at the buying public for not seeing the writing on the wall.

And I totally reject the notion of "supporting" my favorite artist.  I LOVE Stonemason's stuff and have a few items of his but I don't buy his stuff just to support him.  He's good enough to stand on his own without my help.  As for the rest of the PAs I barely have any name recognition at all until I get a crappy product from one, or see so much carbon copy stuff come from them that I remember and think "oh yeah, him/her... same ol, same ol, boooring)

BeeMKay

Richard Haseltine said:

The thing that would help would be not an influx of nwe vendors but an influx of new buyers - more people buying content, even if the pattern of consumption matched that of the current market, would, make more niches viable.

 

Honestly... a bunch of "specialized" items might actualy lure new buyers to this page. I can take myself as an example. I visit Hivewire because of their Harry Horse, and while that is the main reason I go there, I do occasionaly buy another product there that catches my eye.

It could be the same here, if you have some content that you don't get elsewhere. A "Quality Line" of content, that is supplementing the regular skimpfest. But the problem with such a content would be, that DAZ3D would probably have to buy it of the PA, as sale numbers will most likely be lower than your regular stuff.

Timbales

PsychoNaut said:

I'd do it.  But...  every time I open Zbrush to make clothes, a monster emerges on the canvas.  And another couple hours of time are gone and another toothy, clawed beast with spikes and a dreadful disposition slithers its way off the desktop to devour some poor plebian.  

That said I never tire of bikinis and hot girls (and guys).  

This is an important point I think people tend to forget - the Artist in Published Artist. One has to do the things they love and inspire them, or else the end work is not good.

I think all of us have been in a situation where you have been asked to do a render for someone and you've struggled with it because it didn't inspire you. 

Male-M3dia

lee_lhs said:

You have to supply webspace for the product, you have to supply bandwidth (may it be for actual downloads) or for the images/text on the website for the product. You have to keep it in your registry, and make sure it shows up in some sales and not in others. For some of these tasks, you have programs and hardware, for other you have people, but in both cases, it's creating costs.

This is the non-physical shelf-space, which are costs to the company hosting the product, in this case DAZ3D. They only cover these costs when they actually sell a product. No sale, no money, but still "shelf-costs".

Of course, for the single product, this isn't gargantious costs. But if you have several thousands, or even more, this adds up. I assume, that would be a reason why the other big market place culls non-sellers after a while - they are simply too expensive.

Just a thought, you know.

Pretty much. And this is why DAZ has less vendors than other stores; to have higher quality, more in-demand items for sale. I see more harm in the store's reputation to lower the bar to bring on low selling items and vendors. There's not much point adding content that only a tiny portion of consumers will use. I would guess a business is in business to make money, and wise investment of resources, such as web space and bandwidth plays into those decisions. 

BeeMKay

Male-M3dia said:

lee_lhs said:

You have to supply webspace for the product, you have to supply bandwidth (may it be for actual downloads) or for the images/text on the website for the product. You have to keep it in your registry, and make sure it shows up in some sales and not in others. For some of these tasks, you have programs and hardware, for other you have people, but in both cases, it's creating costs.

This is the non-physical shelf-space, which are costs to the company hosting the product, in this case DAZ3D. They only cover these costs when they actually sell a product. No sale, no money, but still "shelf-costs".

Of course, for the single product, this isn't gargantious costs. But if you have several thousands, or even more, this adds up. I assume, that would be a reason why the other big market place culls non-sellers after a while - they are simply too expensive.

Just a thought, you know.

Pretty much. And this is why DAZ has less vendors than other stores; to have higher quality, more in-demand items for sale. I see more harm in the store's reputation to lower the bar to bring on low selling items and vendors. There's not much point adding content that only a tiny portion of consumers will use. I would guess a business is in business to make money, and wise investment of resources, such as web space and bandwidth plays into those decisions.

*chuckles* Well, that would mean you'd end up with lots of "high quality skimpwear", because that's the "in demand item".

Don't get me wrong... and I'm sure you didn't mean it as it sounded, but DAZ3D already has a lousy reputation due to the content. Let's just say that the only difference between here and RR is that they do sell the anatomical stuff there, and they don't sell that here. That's about as good as the reputation is from the people I talked to.

What would give it a better reputation would be that HQ line, but it would have to include specifically "low seller potential" stuff, like "regular" clothing, male clothing, "quality characters", for example. That wouldn't diminish the value of the mass products that "everyone" buys, but it would perhaps draw in a crowd of shoppers that is nowadays... "shocked" by both the advertisement and the majority of content.

Male-M3dia

lee_lhs said:

Male-M3dia said:

lee_lhs said:

You have to supply webspace for the product, you have to supply bandwidth (may it be for actual downloads) or for the images/text on the website for the product. You have to keep it in your registry, and make sure it shows up in some sales and not in others. For some of these tasks, you have programs and hardware, for other you have people, but in both cases, it's creating costs.

This is the non-physical shelf-space, which are costs to the company hosting the product, in this case DAZ3D. They only cover these costs when they actually sell a product. No sale, no money, but still "shelf-costs".

Of course, for the single product, this isn't gargantious costs. But if you have several thousands, or even more, this adds up. I assume, that would be a reason why the other big market place culls non-sellers after a while - they are simply too expensive.

Just a thought, you know.

Pretty much. And this is why DAZ has less vendors than other stores; to have higher quality, more in-demand items for sale. I see more harm in the store's reputation to lower the bar to bring on low selling items and vendors. There's not much point adding content that only a tiny portion of consumers will use. I would guess a business is in business to make money, and wise investment of resources, such as web space and bandwidth plays into those decisions.

*chuckles* Well, that would mean you'd end up with lots of "high quality skimpwear", because that's the "in demand item".

Don't get me wrong... and I'm sure you didn't mean it as it sounded, but DAZ3D already has a lousy reputation due to the content. Let's just say that the only difference between here and RR is that they do sell the anatomical stuff there, and they don't sell that here. That's about as good as the reputation is from the people I talked to.

What would give it a better reputation would be that HQ line, but it would have to include specifically "low seller potential" stuff, like "regular" clothing, male clothing, "quality characters", for example. That wouldn't diminish the value of the mass products that "everyone" buys, but it would perhaps draw in a crowd of shoppers that is nowadays... "shocked" by both the advertisement and the majority of content.

I would think that would fall under the opinion category. ;) The point of the thread is why certain types of clothing were created and the answer so far is that the majority of customers want that over other types of clothing. We should try to keep negative comments out of the discussion though.

SnowPheonix

Richard Haseltine said:

The thing that would help would be not an influx of nwe vendors but an influx of new buyers - more people buying content, even if the pattern of consumption matched that of the current market, would, make more niches viable.

You are absolutely right and what DAZ should focus on is what will bring that 'influx of new buyers'... and I think a lot of the old buyers are telling you that first and foremost you guys need to start making real looking skins for your characters.. Now with Iray, I can make everything in my pictures 'photorealistic' and that means the characters skins must be photoreal... when your customers hit render, our characts should look like photographs instead of cartoons and until you address the cartoonish nature of the most of the characters, few people will be able to make the amazing looking pictures that would draw every artist straight to beating a path to your door. 

After all.... its not up to your customers to bring you more customers... you have to make the products that attracts them.  "If you build it, they will come."  I've been saying the same thing on this forum for more than a year now... we have the capacity to create amazingly real characters but unfortunately too many people have been staring at these fake looking cartoon girls you guys pump out everyday instead of ones that look like real detailed, multicolored skinned human beings.  We are almost their... keep building it but we gotta have attention to the smallest details.

Have a great day.. You guys are doing a bang up job already.. :)  I know people are already working on it from my end.

SpyroRue

"I see more harm in the store's reputation to lower the bar to bring on low selling items and vendors. There's not much point adding content that only a tiny portion of consumers will use."

Theres no growth without risks, and if it means daz seeks out New fresh blood PAs willing to tackle the really uncharted areas in the 3D realm, even if they are slow producers, then what is there to loose? Yes there has to be quality standards... something I see has bounced UP and DOWN here at daz. Quality has nothing to do with the type/themes of content a PA creates for. And on that note, how in the world is a PA who makes content that deviates from this current Same-Same skimp market right now, automatically considered bad quality? Sorry, but I do not see Luthbel's beautifully imagined outfits bringing down Daz's reputation, because its not skimp and apparently would sell less than Victoria 7's latest fishnet stockings and cut up mini skirt.

Content that deviates from this threads title will never be possible, if it's avoided or gets a possibly reduced effort when produced on the assumption "it sells badly, so I wont bother". Not trying to argue with anyone, I just dont see the logic. Risks must be taken for improvements. If no risk is taken, nothing ever changes. Its the exact same thing that made Iray possible in Daz Studio  

BeeMKay

Male-M3dia said:

I would think that would fall under the opinion category. ;) The point of the thread is why certain types of clothing were created and the answer so far is that the majority of customers want that over other types of clothing. We should try to keep negative comments out of the discussion though.

 

Agreed. This is one of these type of threads, where there can't be happiness for all in the end.

FSMCDesigns

lee_lhs said:

Male-M3dia said:

lee_lhs said:

You have to supply webspace for the product, you have to supply bandwidth (may it be for actual downloads) or for the images/text on the website for the product. You have to keep it in your registry, and make sure it shows up in some sales and not in others. For some of these tasks, you have programs and hardware, for other you have people, but in both cases, it's creating costs.

This is the non-physical shelf-space, which are costs to the company hosting the product, in this case DAZ3D. They only cover these costs when they actually sell a product. No sale, no money, but still "shelf-costs".

Of course, for the single product, this isn't gargantious costs. But if you have several thousands, or even more, this adds up. I assume, that would be a reason why the other big market place culls non-sellers after a while - they are simply too expensive.

Just a thought, you know.

Pretty much. And this is why DAZ has less vendors than other stores; to have higher quality, more in-demand items for sale. I see more harm in the store's reputation to lower the bar to bring on low selling items and vendors. There's not much point adding content that only a tiny portion of consumers will use. I would guess a business is in business to make money, and wise investment of resources, such as web space and bandwidth plays into those decisions.

*chuckles* Well, that would mean you'd end up with lots of "high quality skimpwear", because that's the "in demand item".

Don't get me wrong... and I'm sure you didn't mean it as it sounded, but DAZ3D already has a lousy reputation due to the content. Let's just say that the only difference between here and RR is that they do sell the anatomical stuff there, and they don't sell that here. That's about as good as the reputation is from the people I talked to.

What would give it a better reputation would be that HQ line, but it would have to include specifically "low seller potential" stuff, like "regular" clothing, male clothing, "quality characters", for example. That wouldn't diminish the value of the mass products that "everyone" buys, but it would perhaps draw in a crowd of shoppers that is nowadays... "shocked" by both the advertisement and the majority of content.

I agree, I work in retail management for a large chain and we have lots of "niche" items that are considered point of difference than our competitors. As a DAZ consumer, I don't want to shop at a place where every PA has a bottom line, I need to sell this by this time mentality for every product they produce. I want creativity, passion and vision to be involved. One thing I have learned for myself in creating commercial mesh for games, when it starts to feel like work, it's time to move on to something different. Nothing worse for me when creation starts to become mundane and tedious because of deadlines and such.

To be fair, DAZ does not have consistent "higher quality" on it's items than other stores, so that reputation thing comes from other areas instead like the free DS software and flagship figures. And if you want a wise investment of resources, such as web space and bandwidth, keep the niche products and do away with the forums and/or the galleries if it is that much of a problem..

Serene Night

I think bringing in new buyers would help. When I hear that men's content doesn't sell, I have to wonder what advertising is being used to bring in artists who want more men's content.

When I am on the web and see DAZ products advertised. It is almost always a scantily clad female I see advertising female figures. If you want to attract users who want to render men, you won't be rendering beautiful women in bikinis. =-)

 

 

Oso3D

Has anyone considered doing Kickstarter or Patreon stuff for vendoring?

Kickstarter is great for 'put your money where your mouth is.'

 

nicstt

sriesch said:

Valandar said:

..., well over 50% of its lifetime sales are usually made in the two week intro, barring unusal or bizarre circumstances, or absolute universal appeal...

Does anybody know why this is for certain? 

I would have thought that new customers who do not yet have it and were not around for the intro sale would be buying it at roughly the same rate as old customers, thus making two weeks of sales just a miniscule fraction of the sale percentages compared to sales throughout the rest of time minus those two weeks. 

Are there very few new customers?  Or do most products get "old" and become less desireable somehow?  (I do see this in some cases, for example accessories for older figures, or due to changing file formats or software, etc., and I do see some really old products that are fine but the promo isn't as flashy as they are now, but would have thought there were plenty of products for which aging doesn't apply.)  Or do old products just get buried out of sight under new products so nobody can find them or they aren't immediately on customer's minds the way newly advertised products are?  Or something else?  I'm quite curious.

At one one time, it's likely the majority of customers are going to buy it at release due to there being only a limited number of new customers in relation to the customer base.

Novica

Serene Night said:

I think bringing in new buyers would help. When I hear that men's content doesn't sell, I have to wonder what advertising is being used to bring in artists who want more men's content.

When I am on the web and see DAZ products advertised. It is almost always a scantily clad female I see advertising female figures. If you want to attract users who want to render men, you won't be rendering beautiful women in bikinis. =-)

 

 

AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!!  You never see muscular, bare chested men in ANY of DAZ's banners across the web. Or dressed men. It's Botox Boob Babe- again.  

Male-M3dia

SpyroRue said:

"I see more harm in the store's reputation to lower the bar to bring on low selling items and vendors. There's not much point adding content that only a tiny portion of consumers will use."

Theres no growth without risks, and if it means daz seeks out New fresh blood PAs willing to tackle the really uncharted areas in the 3D realm, even if they are slow producers, then what is there to loose? Yes there has to be quality standards... something I see has bounced UP and DOWN here at daz. Quality has nothing to do with the type/themes of content a PA creates for. And on that note, how in the world is a PA who makes content that deviates from this current Same-Same skimp market right now, automatically considered bad quality? Sorry, but I do not see Luthbel's beautifully imagined outfits bringing down Daz's reputation, because its not skimp and apparently would sell less than Victoria 7's latest fishnet stockings and cut up mini skirt.

Content that deviates from this threads title will never be possible, if it's avoided or gets a possibly reduced effort when produced on the assumption "it sells badly, so I wont bother". Not trying to argue with anyone, I just dont see the logic. Risks must be taken for improvements. If no risk is taken, nothing ever changes. Its the exact same thing that made Iray possible in Daz Studio  

I think the point is that the risk will be not worth it if the majority of the buying public buying habits do not change. Bringing in new PAs just so they can sell 10 items a piece and get discouraged is not growth. Increasing the actual demand and purchasing power of the customers so that those items affect the bottom line is really the goal. Vendors simply can't or should be asked to bear this burden. That's really in the customer's hands.

Male-M3dia

Also on Luthbel's items: PAs sometimes spend anywhere to a month to 3 months on highly detailed items, so for an established PA some people don't have a problem to pay him $30 for the item. However, for new PAs, it's highly doubtful that you will get people to pay that much even though the time and effort involved justifies the cost. This is why some PAs start with lesser items to see how support is before committing to higher effort products, so the support needs to be there to encourage those vendors to do more detailed efforts. If that support isn't there, neither will be the products.

Leana

timmins.william said:

Has anyone considered doing Kickstarter or Patreon stuff for vendoring?

It has been suggested multiple times before. It seems like a good idea on paper, but there are a few basic things which make it complicated:

In order to have something to show to the potential backers, the creator has to start working on the product (at least concept pictures) before launching the campain. So 1) if the campain fails, the creator has done that work for nothing, and 2) another creator could use those ideas to create a competiting product. Point 2 may not seem that important, but the campaign will only bring a base income and the creator would probably want to sell that product at a content store after it's ready so having a competiting product released would still hurt them.

You'd also need to get enough people interested in that particular product for that particular figure (remember all those "I didn't buy it because it wasn't exactly how I wanted it" or "because it wasn't for my prefered figure" comments?). 

And those people would need to be ready to wait for the creator to complete it before they get it. A lot of customers are impulse buyers or buy an item because they need it right now, not because they want it in a few weeks/months.

Oso3D

I, for one, would be willing to back established PAs based on concept art. And the point of a kickstarter is for creators to mitigate risk.

If people don't go for it? Then they don't and you move on.

 

It seems ideal for those items the PA wants to make but isn't sure there is an actual market for.

 

Leana

timmins.william said:

It seems ideal for those items the PA wants to make but isn't sure there is an actual market for.

Maybe, maybe not. There might be cases where there would be a good number of people who would buy a product if it was available right now but not enough people who are ready to buy it in advance....

Timbales

I would consider collaborating with or commissioning a product with a PA for an upfront fee and a cut of the sales if it goes to market.

Daikatana

Novica said:

Serene Night said:

I think bringing in new buyers would help. When I hear that men's content doesn't sell, I have to wonder what advertising is being used to bring in artists who want more men's content.

When I am on the web and see DAZ products advertised. It is almost always a scantily clad female I see advertising female figures. If you want to attract users who want to render men, you won't be rendering beautiful women in bikinis. =-)

 

 

AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!!  You never see muscular, bare chested men in ANY of DAZ's banners across the web. Or dressed men. It's Botox Boob Babe- again.  

This is a very valid point.  If advertising is only aimed at one part of a possible market, you are only going to get buyers from that market.  Both women and men have equal ability to be creative and the really neat thing about that is the fact that each individual brings their own flavor to a project or enterprise.  Maybe if the ads were marketed more equally between the genders it might bring that influx of new buyers with more varied tastes.

Oso3D

Leana said:

timmins.william said:

It seems ideal for those items the PA wants to make but isn't sure there is an actual market for.

Maybe, maybe not. There might be cases where there would be a good number of people who would buy a product if it was available right now but not enough people who are ready to buy it in advance....

Sure, but if the problem is that a number of products are too risky to bother creating, getting long-sighted customers to actually prove interest seems a good idea to me. Most of the objections sound like the objections that have been proven wrong in other industries.

 

Again, I assume this would only be a viable path for the more established names.

DzFire

Novica said:

Serene Night said:

I think bringing in new buyers would help. When I hear that men's content doesn't sell, I have to wonder what advertising is being used to bring in artists who want more men's content.

When I am on the web and see DAZ products advertised. It is almost always a scantily clad female I see advertising female figures. If you want to attract users who want to render men, you won't be rendering beautiful women in bikinis. =-)

 

 

AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!!  You never see muscular, bare chested men in ANY of DAZ's banners across the web. Or dressed men. It's Botox Boob Babe- again.  

 Um, on the front page ;)

larsmidnatt

Daikatana said:

Novica said:

Serene Night said:

I think bringing in new buyers would help. When I hear that men's content doesn't sell, I have to wonder what advertising is being used to bring in artists who want more men's content.

When I am on the web and see DAZ products advertised. It is almost always a scantily clad female I see advertising female figures. If you want to attract users who want to render men, you won't be rendering beautiful women in bikinis. =-)

 

 

AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!!  You never see muscular, bare chested men in ANY of DAZ's banners across the web. Or dressed men. It's Botox Boob Babe- again.  

This is a very valid point.  If advertising is only aimed at one part of a possible market, you are only going to get buyers from that market.  Both women and men have equal ability to be creative and the really neat thing about that is the fact that each individual brings their own flavor to a project or enterprise.  Maybe if the ads were marketed more equally between the genders it might bring that influx of new buyers with more varied tastes.

DAZ  homepage suggests they make products that fit many industries and uses. From software perspective maybe. However the content sold is pretty much for people who like to render naked white women. Some might see this as an identity crisis. The homepage marketing does not jive with the content on display in the storefront. 

larsmidnatt

Even when the product is not a naked white lady or skimpy clothes, Daz advertising often puts a barely dressed lady in the scene. I mentioned this in the past, and I am more than aware why they do it.  Take for example 3 environmental pieces with the fancy Daz logo. Notice how 2 out of 3 have women showing off their thighs :)

While the cross-examination desk promo image is clean, the other two have a totally different vibe..Seems like they are scenes for adult entertainment *chuckles* So even innocent environments are victim :(

My not so clear point is that I think it's confusing for people outside this sphere to understand Daz. And Daz panders the market they are used to having, but may not be able to break away from if they don't do something proactively about it. Just my opinion. And no, I can't give a complete solution for the business. And I don't hate naked ladies, so I am certainly guilty as charged. Can I be arrested by that police officer now?

Mattymanx

Sex sells.