Beta for DazCentral, your new Content Manager

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  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,253
    edited May 2020
    mindsong said:
    mrinal said:
    mindsong said:
    Sevrin said:

     

    mrinal said:

    Plugin installation/update support could have been added to SmartContent. V4/M4 capability and content development is pretty much frozen wrt Daz store, so once installed via DIM/manual don't require further maintenance. Doesn't justify building an entire "parallel" product for it.

    Yeah, I don't think ease-of-use is the point of this, but rather DRM.

    ...

    Never did see an answer to the multiple questions about Daz Central and ... 'foreign' content. This continued silence is likely to become an answer in itself.

    --ms

    That question is way easier asked than answered. Just to give an idea of the complexity involved:

    Automated access -
    Most marketplaces are designed and optimized for manual interactions and not for automated bulk access using any tool. Not all sites have the need nor the capability to handle automated downloads. In fact, several of these marketplaces may have safeguards to prevent such automated bulk access in order to avoid spikes of overload or prevent any DOS attack to their servers. Daz may be handling this scenario by routing calls from DIM/Studio to different servers than those that are used to access content catalog/description using web browser. So if you try to circumvent such site-wide measures using a tool, you risk getting flagged as a malicious user.

    Proprietary metadata -
    3rd party marketplaces sell their 3D content according to formats supported by popular tools used by professionals. Each additional format require additional effort from their publishers to support that format. For the few sites that support the Daz format (such as duf files) outside Daz, there is a severe lack of formalization to provide metadata that would facilitate categorization and searching inside studio. Publishers just get away with providing a path to access their content in the content library in a readme file and that have been deemed sufficient so far. As revolting as it may sound, but the support for arbitary manual installation of content diminishes the requirement for formal metadata. So in the absence of Daz prescribed metadata, your content is "invisible" to any tool that relies on the presence of it.

    Of course, there are further concerns regarding standardization of - access to content "repositories", federated content search/discovery using content "registries". But those challenges are way beyond the simple hurdles I mentioned above.

    Sure - then a simple "no" would be fine.

    I never stated or implied in any way that the request was trivial. As a business decision, the cost to DAZ of dealing with what you describe is completely relevant.

    At the same time, virtually everyone in here (not new users, trust me, I know the names - rough guess pegs 95% to 5+ year users), owns and uses content from Rendo, Hivewire, Pre-DAZ-RDNA, PoserWorld, etc., let alone the zillions of *randomly* packaged freebies from sharecg and other sources... So the question to us not-new users is probably one of *the* features that would still interest us most! That's what I would expect 'we heard your voices' to reflect, and the question still goes unanswered.

    Proof of this need is the existence of incredibly sophisticated tools like Riverside Arts's Content Wizard here at the store (and a few variations) that have been written to help us create home-made DIM packages and Smart-Content Meta-Data. Perhaps Riverside will be able to extend their great product to integrate with this tool, which would be great for everyone.

     

    The original question is still legit, and still hasn't been answered formally by a DAZ rep anywhere I can see, and I find that telling - in information and attitude, but that's just me.

    Either a simple 'we may someday', or 'sorry, no' or even 'sorry, no, DAZ doesn't do foreign data' would be *fine* with me, or... better yet, 'yeah, that's coming, but it's pretty complicated, given the many variations of foreign data out there. We may add support for the fairly regimented Poser Runtimes like we still sell at the store here first, and see how that goes... but we're going to work get the core under control first...'

    just sayin'

    Given the recent comments from DAZ_RawB that indicate that it is for *new* users (which is fine), starting the announcement out with "We've heard your voices" really begs the question, though doesn't it.

    Thanks for the response.

    --ms

    When Studio 4.9 was released with the integrated Encrypted Daz Connect (they meant DRM but folks don't like DRM), they said they had done all the changes to make it easier for new users to find stuff; the forum went into melt-down. This hasn't been the same, but I'm getting the same vibe; obviously it's just my opinion, but there are a number of comments that have reinforced my feeling. There are no comments that have reassured me.

    I was actually quite interested in this, and curious to see what it did. It fell down on the forced restart.

    ... Hopefully Daz will sort it out, and we'll be able to use DIM as normal, even when trying this out. Ideally being able to use both would be the way forward.

    Personally, why wasn't DIM improved? It does most of what it says on the tin really well. It's only issue is search, but even that is not too bad, and being able to use regex is helpful for those that know what it is and how to create search terms.

    Post edited by nicstt on
  • mindsongmindsong Posts: 1,616

    This is priceless. DAZ hasn't yet produced a good Content Manager. postgresql cms still doesn't work on a Mac. Now you're introducing DAZCentral which won't work on a Mac. Has DAZ stopped supporting Macs? Shouldn't you get one product working before moving onto a replacement?

    PostgreSQL does work on the Mac, though there have recently been some (fixable) configuration issues that seem to affect new installs.

    mindsong said:
    Sevrin said:

     

    mrinal said:

    Plugin installation/update support could have been added to SmartContent. V4/M4 capability and content development is pretty much frozen wrt Daz store, so once installed via DIM/manual don't require further maintenance. Doesn't justify building an entire "parallel" product for it.

    Yeah, I don't think ease-of-use is the point of this, but rather DRM.

    ding ding ding...

    You can't ding ding ding something that plainly isn't correct, and has been confirmed to be incorrect.

    In my read, I didn't see any overt confirmation of that. When DAZ_RawB writes something like "No, DRM will never be part of the new DazCentral system", then I'll raise my cynical eyebrows and admit that "hmmm, they weren't trying to smuggle it in again, silly me..."

    (FWIW, I understand and even support the DRM motivation, but as an honest customer that saw the 'Connect' fiasco unfold, my response isn't exactly unprovoked)

    But let me offer a beer-bet that cynically predicts that DRM *will* be integrated someday - as will direct store purchasing features - both fine by me. Just note that I'm betting in favor of DAZ's interests, not the user-base's.

    You on?

    mindsong said:

    exactly who asked for this? anyone?

    I could see this as a good long-term strategy for DAZ and its future customers, but I honestly don't think the voices in these forums were asking for this 'feature' over other improvements  - e.g. clean DS shutdowns, animations that load the way they were saved, BVH loading/saving that works, etc...

    Of course I understand that priorities are likely to differ and the future is not the past, even if for its own sake. The natural tension of the marketplace continues. Vote accordingly.

    I would recommend to the mothership that manual downloads and DIM remain enabled over the long-term, else another 'connect'-like event is likely to be looming should that change.

    Never did see an answer to the multiple questions about Daz Central and ... 'foreign' content. This continued silence is likely to become an answer in itself.

    --ms

    It is for new users who have trouble with the options in DIM, as explained above. Since it uses the same system as DIM (just with a streamlined UI, as explained above) it will presumably not do anything with content that isn't set up to work in DIM - I dion't know if it will work with the small number of items from other sites thata re set up to work with DIM, though.

    Excellent idea! Good thinking on the part of DAZ.

    Per my comments ("good for DAZ and future customers"), I *can* see the logic/motivation of this tool. And FWIW, I use and like DIM for my download management.

    But... As I stated in a recent previous post, when you tell a veteran userbase/audience in the first 4 lines of a forum announcement that 'We heard your voices', then a few posts later describe the tool as 'being designed for new users', the flurry of commentary that it has generated in this crowd doesn't surprise me at all.

    This product simply was not designed for 95% of *us*. And that's fine and it's good to for us to know.

    And I think it's safe to assume that my interests in using it to import foreign data probably won't be found here, even if they never actually answer the question - it's implied. New users won't need that. Fine.

    I'm pragmatic and blunt, which often comes across as mean or vindictive when I sense hidden agendas or plain BS, but in most of my commentary, deleted or otherwise, there are usually truths that might be worth discussing. I just don't wrap 'em with a pretty bow anymore.

    --ms

  • mrinalmrinal Posts: 620
    edited May 2020

    [not relevant anymore]..

    Post edited by mrinal on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 75,797

    I don't think anyone is wilfully withholding an answer to the question about third-party content, but I doubt it has been tested so it's waiting on someone giving it a go.

    Don't forget that Daz Rawb said above that DIM and Daz Central are the same base core, so I doubt this is a matter of development costs (and I'd hold out hope that cool stuff added to DC will find its way into DIM too). I think the "you" who "spoke" would eb the silent(ish) group who use the content and applications but don't post on the forums.

    I'm pretty sure that DIM and Daz Central won't introduce some kind of DRM - they are dealing with plain zips, albeit with a particular structure - but I wouldn't bet on  there never being a return to DRM (I get sent links to the industrial-scale warez sites that are leaching on Daz content).

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,350

    Has there been an offocial answer about the login issues and the 0KB un-installer?

    - Greg

  • ChakradudeChakradude Posts: 228

    Found my install paths for downloads were reverted to my C: drive. And only because of a major Windows 10 update today. My drive was maxed out. Thanks. It took a bit, and finally found a slew of 'Custom' paths added to my DIM that were not there yesterday. Deleted them, uninstalled today's downloads, and reinstalled to my F: drive.

    Now, how the heck do you uninstall DAZ Central? I don't want a program that is going to override my paths and preferences behind my back.

    Mary

    Thanks for posting this! I have fought long and hard to get a working content archetecture on my d drive, the very last thing I need is what you just described! Not going on my main PC render machine! I would consider trying it on my mac but....Daz didn't even say it was coming to mac soon;) to bad cause it looks cool.

  • scorpioscorpio Posts: 7,886

    Has there been an offocial answer about the login issues and the 0KB un-installer?

    - Greg

    Not that I have seen. 

  • xyer0xyer0 Posts: 4,397
    edited May 2020

    After being bought by new owners, WalMart began locking behind glass several items. In order to make a purchase, customers would have to locate and wait for an "associate" to unlock and retrieve the item so they could stand in a separate line and purchase those items. WalMart may have avoided losing money through theft, but much of the difference was lost by longtime customers deciding to shop elsewhere, not to mention the ill will it engendered.

    Bean counters and suits will insist on DRM, but artistic types are not like normal people (which is why they are the first to be rounded up), and they will reject/resist these moves whenever feasible. Learn from history: DRM fails, one way or another. 
     

    Post edited by xyer0 on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 75,797
    xyer0 said:

    After being bought by new owners, WalMart began locking behind glass several items. In order to make a purchase, customers would have to locate and wait for an "associate" to unlock and retrieve the item so they could stand in a separate line and purchase those items. WalMart may have avoided losing money through theft, but much of the difference was lost by longtime customers deciding to shop elsewhere, not to mention the ill will it engendered.

    Bean counters and suits will insist on DRM, but artistic types are not like normal people (which is why they are the first to be rounded up), and they will reject/resist these moves whenever feasible. Learn from history: DRM fails, one way or another.

    This is not a DRM tool. These diversions are distracting from discussion of what is being offered.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 75,797
    scorpio said:

    Has there been an offocial answer about the login issues and the 0KB un-installer?

    - Greg

    Not that I have seen. 

    There is a security update that means soem passwords are not accepted and need updating - that's why I have mentioned in several places that short or simple passwords may need to be cghanged (as many of you had already discovered, of course)..

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,350
    scorpio said:

    Has there been an offocial answer about the login issues and the 0KB un-installer?

    - Greg

    Not that I have seen. 

    There is a security update that means soem passwords are not accepted and need updating - that's why I have mentioned in several places that short or simple passwords may need to be cghanged (as many of you had already discovered, of course)..

    Thanks I had just been looking in this thread since the problem only popped up immediately after installing DazCentral.

    - Greg

  • scorpioscorpio Posts: 7,886
    scorpio said:

    Has there been an offocial answer about the login issues and the 0KB un-installer?

    - Greg

    Not that I have seen. 

    There is a security update that means soem passwords are not accepted and need updating - that's why I have mentioned in several places that short or simple passwords may need to be cghanged (as many of you had already discovered, of course)..

    Yes but initially when the problem occurred for people the answer was 'its a server issue', I got the solution through trail and error but nothing official has been stated as to why this change suddenly became neccassary and was not apparently know about.

  • 3dOutlaw3dOutlaw Posts: 2,450

    Well I just saw, and am trying it...

    Things to be aware of:

    1. It kicks into a restart of your computer without warning.  I was able to cancel that as I have many things running, and when it asked to shut them down I canceled the reboot.  Then it finished installing
    2. Once I opened it up, it said I did not have DS installed and started installing without asking me and got to 14%.  I cancelled, as I do have DS installed, and after cancelling, it seems to reflect that.
    3. When I hit the X to close it, it does not close...needs a task manager kill
    4. When you hit "install" on an item, it just starts installing and you get a progress bar.  No info on where it is installing.

    There is a plugins tab, and on my it has "Starship Sky Hammer", "Keiko 6 Ponytail", "Fighting Monk"...many more?  Are these plugins?

    This is quite "beta"...and a little too over-simplified for me.  Good luck with it!  This is just FYI/feedback, as I uninstalled.

  • GiGi_7GiGi_7 Posts: 1,274
    3dOutlaw said:

    Well I just saw, and am trying it...

    Things to be aware of:

    1. It kicks into a restart of your computer without warning.  I was able to cancel that as I have many things running, and when it asked to shut them down I canceled the reboot.  Then it finished installing
    2. Once I opened it up, it said I did not have DS installed and started installing without asking me and got to 14%.  I cancelled, as I do have DS installed, and after cancelling, it seems to reflect that.
    3. When I hit the X to close it, it does not close...needs a task manager kill
    4. When you hit "install" on an item, it just starts installing and you get a progress bar.  No info on where it is installing.

    There is a plugins tab, and on my it has "Starship Sky Hammer", "Keiko 6 Ponytail", "Fighting Monk"...many more?  Are these plugins?

    This is quite "beta"...and a little too over-simplified for me.  Good luck with it!  This is just FYI/feedback, as I uninstalled.

    Erase data base information too. All the info. Even the store Ids created with daz example scripts were annihilated. Erase DIM information too.

  • mindsongmindsong Posts: 1,616

    I don't think anyone is wilfully withholding an answer to the question about third-party content, ...

    Here we disagree. I think they would very much *like* to give an answer that they simply can't afford, given the limited resources available to them. Probably the right call, but be honest about it. By-and-large, this is a super-reasonable community of really smart people who can both handle the reality of trade-offs.

    ... but I doubt it has been tested so it's waiting on someone giving it a go.

    I would counter-speculate that nobody in the dev group has been explicitly tasked to work on the ability to import native renderosity/hivewire zipfiles into the DIM or DAZCentral core. really. and I get that, but the assumption that there's already something in there to 'give a go' ... hmmm. nope. not buying it. makes no sense. I''d love to be wrong here.

    Don't forget that Daz Rawb said above that DIM and Daz Central are the same base core, so I doubt this is a matter of development costs (and I'd hold out hope that cool stuff added to DC will find its way into DIM too).  ...

    DIM can't natively import foreign data of any kind! Was clearly never designed to. In fact, it still cannot properly handle DAZ Bryce (tm)  or DAZ Carrara (tm) content zipfiles after 5 years! (and yes, even *this* makes sense to me, however much I don't like it).

    And getting useful content and smart-data for foreign data into the DAZ database took Riverdside Art months of work and study according to his/her own product backstory. I'm sure those development costs were quite substantial to them.

    Per @mrinal's salient description of the complexity of this import capability, I would disagree that development costs aren't relevant here, and a counter that it has *everything* to do with development costs, and rightly so. It may still be worth doing (for existing customers), or it may never be worth doing (for new customers) - it's a complex ROI estimation, but I can't, without some common-sense-based push-back believe the idea that it's already in the core and we just need to wait for the code to mature. Not without some substantiation (anything hint/indication all would be welcomed). The existing DIM options and natural market tensions don't align with this representation of the current situation.

    Re: DIM<->DAZCentral symbiosis - I also sincerely hope the improvements in the core are bi-directional - double win for DAZ too. Based on the early returns, I'll continue to watch with a cautious eye, saving my older installers as we go.

    ... I think the "you" who "spoke" would eb the silent(ish) group who use the content and applications but don't post on the forums.

    Are you speculating that there's a large number of silent users that have tried and really like the new DAZ Central tool, and haven't experienced any of the problems described in here?

    Sounds like another beer-bet to me. A good many of the folks in this thread that have tried this new tool and had problems are some of the most DS-savvy veterans in our user-community. These are the best of the best, and many are blue-blood DAZ supporters to the core. The early returns are mixed, but it is a beta.

    All I have to go on is market forces and the comments in this thread, but I know how I'll be betting.

    I'm pretty sure that DIM and Daz Central won't introduce some kind of DRM - they are dealing with plain zips, albeit with a particular structure - but I wouldn't bet on  there never being a return to DRM (I get sent links to the industrial-scale warez sites that are leaching on Daz content).

    I don't even know where to start on this (I sure they won't but bet they will), other than appreciating that the data-theft is a real problem to which I have no good answer.

    What I want with my data (import/export/control/flexibility), is exactly what makes the data so easy to steal. I think the "grey line" will always be making it hard enough to not be easy to steal, while making it easy enough for legit customers like me to still reach our intended cross-platform data-transfer workflows and goals. It's a tough one for sure, and it's tough for everyone in all of the content and media-based industries.

    There's a fascinating dynamic in the broader marketplace, where the "have's" can and do pay, and the "have-nots" filch and steal, and the "in-betweens" define the dynamics of battleground each day. Open-source, I-tunes, phone-services, DAZ free app w/paid content - all trying to establish their footings in a very very fluid context. I'm sure it will all look very different in 10 years, and yet somehow it will be the same :)

    What's encouraging is the ever-rising invoice number count each day in the store, which indicates to me that many other honest and good people like us are still paying fair value for quality goods and services.

    cheers,

    --ms

  • mindsongmindsong Posts: 1,616
    mrinal said:

    [not relevant anymore]..

    but appreciated when originally posted.

    be well,

    --ms

  • FixmypcmikeFixmypcmike Posts: 19,013
    mindsong said:
     

    DIM can't natively import foreign data of any kind! Was clearly never designed to. In fact, it still cannot properly handle DAZ Bryce (tm)  or DAZ Carrara (tm) content zipfiles after 5 years! (and yes, even *this* makes sense to me, however much I don't like it).

    Admittedly I don't use Bryce or Carrara much, but I've never had problems installing their content with DIM.

    mindsong said:

    Are you speculating that there's a large number of silent users that have tried and really like the new DAZ Central tool, and haven't experienced any of the problems described in here?

    No, I think that problems installing and finding content are still the biggest issue new users face.  There are a lot of these in the New Users forum, and there are probably a lot of new users who don't use (or even know about) the forums and submit help tickets about it.  I definitely got the impression long ago that it was the single biggest source of customer support tickets.  I don't know if that's still the case, but it seems to have been the driver behind developing DIM, and then Connect, and now DazCentral, so I suspect it still is.

  • mindsongmindsong Posts: 1,616
    mindsong said:
     

    DIM can't natively import foreign data of any kind! Was clearly never designed to. In fact, it still cannot properly handle DAZ Bryce (tm)  or DAZ Carrara (tm) content zipfiles after 5 years! (and yes, even *this* makes sense to me, however much I don't like it).

    Admittedly I don't use Bryce or Carrara much, but I've never had problems installing their content with DIM.

    In a word, it doesn't work. Never has, really - at least for native B/C content. Some power-users swear by it for the DAZ/Poser content that they use in Carrara, which bears mention. Given that this new tool is based on the DIM core, perhaps Carrara/Bryce will benefit and get some attention here too. (anyone know if DAZ Central has menu/install options for Bryce or Carrara or Hexagon? Any success in using them, if so?)

    I love DIM for the download management for these tools, but manually install from there - especially now that I customize my stuff so much anyway. The point is that DIM is, has, will be, and probably should be DS oriented - as this is clearly DAZ's core business direction.

    To remake my original point (without snarkiness), can you get DIM or DAZ Central to install a hivewire or rendo zipfile? Do you expect this functionality in the near future? The question is valid, and still hasn't really been answered. I won't count on it as I review the placement of this new resource in my toolkit. And that's OK.

    mindsong said:

    Are you speculating that there's a large number of silent users that have tried and really like the new DAZ Central tool, and haven't experienced any of the problems described in here?

    No, I think that problems installing and finding content are still the biggest issue new users face.  There are a lot of these in the New Users forum, and there are probably a lot of new users who don't use (or even know about) the forums and submit help tickets about it.  I definitely got the impression long ago that it was the single biggest source of customer support tickets.  I don't know if that's still the case, but it seems to have been the driver behind developing DIM, and then Connect, and now DazCentral, so I suspect it still is.

    Absolutely. In my TL;DR comments, I do actually acknowledge this, and acknowledge DAZ for their choice addressing that future. But it is clearly not intended or designed around the needs of veteran users (who would frequent any of the forums). That's fine, but it wasn't clear who DAZ meant when asserting 'we heard your voices' in the announcement. I assumed they meant us.

    I could see and look forward to advanced features being added over time to address many of the installation process subtlties, but DAZ _RawB clarified the current intent, and now many of us can move on, knowing what DAZCentral is, and how we might integrate it as it matures.

    Thanks for the response, and I'm gonna leave this topic, as the horse I beat is long-dead.

    The best of success to those who embrace this this new utility. Options are always appreciated.

    cheers,

    --ms

  • xyer0xyer0 Posts: 4,397
    xyer0 said:

    After being bought by new owners, WalMart began locking behind glass several items. In order to make a purchase, customers would have to locate and wait for an "associate" to unlock and retrieve the item so they could stand in a separate line and purchase those items. WalMart may have avoided losing money through theft, but much of the difference was lost by longtime customers deciding to shop elsewhere, not to mention the ill will it engendered.

    Bean counters and suits will insist on DRM, but artistic types are not like normal people (which is why they are the first to be rounded up), and they will reject/resist these moves whenever feasible. Learn from history: DRM fails, one way or another.

    This is not a DRM tool. These diversions are distracting from discussion of what is being offered.

    Please pardon me. You mentioned DRM, and I quote: 

    "I'm pretty sure that DIM and Daz Central won't introduce some kind of DRM - they are dealing with plain zips, albeit with a particular structure - but I wouldn't bet on  there never being a return to DRM (I get sent links to the industrial-scale warez sites that are leaching on Daz content)."

    and that is the only reason I said anything. I was not attempting to distract from the discussion.

  • FixmypcmikeFixmypcmike Posts: 19,013
    mindsong said:
    mindsong said:
     

    DIM can't natively import foreign data of any kind! Was clearly never designed to. In fact, it still cannot properly handle DAZ Bryce (tm)  or DAZ Carrara (tm) content zipfiles after 5 years! (and yes, even *this* makes sense to me, however much I don't like it).

    Admittedly I don't use Bryce or Carrara much, but I've never had problems installing their content with DIM.

    In a word, it doesn't work. Never has, really - at least for native B/C content. Some power-users swear by it for the DAZ/Poser content that they use in Carrara, which bears mention. Given that this new tool is based on the DIM core, perhaps Carrara/Bryce will benefit and get some attention here too. (anyone know if DAZ Central has menu/install options for Bryce or Carrara or Hexagon? Any success in using them, if so?)

    I disagree.  DIM, from the beginning, was intended to be and built to be program agnostic.  Packages for products that don't use the standard DS/Poser content locations need to be set up correctly -- I know I encountered many Bryce packages that were set up incorrectly.  I reported them and they were fixed.  I wouldn't be surprised if someone tried to install a faulty package and concluded that DIM couldn't do it, but AFAICT it can.

    mindsong said:

    I love DIM for the download management for these tools, but manually install from there - especially now that I customize my stuff so much anyway. The point is that DIM is, has, will be, and probably should be DS oriented - as this is clearly DAZ's core business direction.

    To remake my original point (without snarkiness), can you get DIM or DAZ Central to install a hivewire or rendo zipfile? Do you expect this functionality in the near future? The question is valid, and still hasn't really been answered. I won't count on it as I review the placement of this new resource in my toolkit. And that's OK.

    DIM can.  Obviously it can't download from other stores -- I can't imagine Rendo or HW or any other store letting Daz3D build that ability into DIM, let alone the work on their end to feed the data into DIM.  But some content creators at other stores have provided DIM-compatible zip files (if the brokerage allowed it), and many end users have created DIM-compatible zips for products from other sources.  There are several PA products here to assist in doing so.  While DIM will install metadata if it is present, it isn't required.  As for DazCentral, I don't know how it installs things (which is a showstopper for me personally, being a control freak) -- we've been told it uses the DIM core, but given that it launches DS and shows the product in Smart Content, I don't know how it handles products without metadata, or products that don't have the DS/Poser content format.  I recall it only showing DS and Hexagon (although it picked up the paths for Bryce and Carrara from my DIM settings), so it presumably is set up to work with Hexagon.

    mindsong said:
    mindsong said:

    Are you speculating that there's a large number of silent users that have tried and really like the new DAZ Central tool, and haven't experienced any of the problems described in here?

    No, I think that problems installing and finding content are still the biggest issue new users face.  There are a lot of these in the New Users forum, and there are probably a lot of new users who don't use (or even know about) the forums and submit help tickets about it.  I definitely got the impression long ago that it was the single biggest source of customer support tickets.  I don't know if that's still the case, but it seems to have been the driver behind developing DIM, and then Connect, and now DazCentral, so I suspect it still is.

    Absolutely. In my TL;DR comments, I do actually acknowledge this, and acknowledge DAZ for their choice addressing that future. But it is clearly not intended or designed around the needs of veteran users (who would frequent any of the forums). That's fine, but it wasn't clear who DAZ meant when asserting 'we heard your voices' in the announcement. I assumed they meant us.

    Yes, I agree completely -- the thread title and first post should have made clear that this was for new users.  It's certainly not "your new Content Manager" for me, and I think it won't fit the needs of most veteran users.

  • UHFUHF Posts: 400

    Near as I can tell, this doesn't do anything useful.

    The only feature I need is the ability to determine if a product has been updated since I last downloaded it.  i.e. a remedial level of revision control that has been availble planet wide for the last 50 years or so.  Heck, even putting a version number on downloaded files would be incredibly massively horrifically monsterously valuable.  I CRAVE THAT.

    I don't and most likely never will use so called 'smart content' as it requires the maintenance and sorting of materials as well as a duplication of the existing database (the file system).   It also suffers from massive clutter so.. meh.

    Maybe I'm wrong... does Daz Central handle normal use of Daz Content?  Namely moving files around and sorting content?

     

     

  • mindsongmindsong Posts: 1,616
    mindsong said:
    mindsong said:
     

    DIM can't natively import foreign data of any kind! Was clearly never designed to. In fact, it still cannot properly handle DAZ Bryce (tm)  or DAZ Carrara (tm) content zipfiles after 5 years! (and yes, even *this* makes sense to me, however much I don't like it).

    Admittedly I don't use Bryce or Carrara much, but I've never had problems installing their content with DIM.

    In a word, it doesn't work. Never has, really - at least for native B/C content. Some power-users swear by it for the DAZ/Poser content that they use in Carrara, which bears mention. Given that this new tool is based on the DIM core, perhaps Carrara/Bryce will benefit and get some attention here too. (anyone know if DAZ Central has menu/install options for Bryce or Carrara or Hexagon? Any success in using them, if so?)

    I disagree.  DIM, from the beginning, was intended to be and built to be program agnostic.  Packages for products that don't use the standard DS/Poser content locations need to be set up correctly -- I know I encountered many Bryce packages that were set up incorrectly.  I reported them and they were fixed.  I wouldn't be surprised if someone tried to install a faulty package and concluded that DIM couldn't do it, but AFAICT it can.

    mindsong said:

    I love DIM for the download management for these tools, but manually install from there - especially now that I customize my stuff so much anyway. The point is that DIM is, has, will be, and probably should be DS oriented - as this is clearly DAZ's core business direction.

    To remake my original point (without snarkiness), can you get DIM or DAZ Central to install a hivewire or rendo zipfile? Do you expect this functionality in the near future? The question is valid, and still hasn't really been answered. I won't count on it as I review the placement of this new resource in my toolkit. And that's OK.

    DIM can.  Obviously it can't download from other stores -- I can't imagine Rendo or HW or any other store letting Daz3D build that ability into DIM, let alone the work on their end to feed the data into DIM.  But some content creators at other stores have provided DIM-compatible zip files (if the brokerage allowed it), and many end users have created DIM-compatible zips for products from other sources.  There are several PA products here to assist in doing so.  While DIM will install metadata if it is present, it isn't required.  As for DazCentral, I don't know how it installs things (which is a showstopper for me personally, being a control freak) -- we've been told it uses the DIM core, but given that it launches DS and shows the product in Smart Content, I don't know how it handles products without metadata, or products that don't have the DS/Poser content format.  I recall it only showing DS and Hexagon (although it picked up the paths for Bryce and Carrara from my DIM settings), so it presumably is set up to work with Hexagon.

    mindsong said:
    mindsong said:

    Are you speculating that there's a large number of silent users that have tried and really like the new DAZ Central tool, and haven't experienced any of the problems described in here?

    No, I think that problems installing and finding content are still the biggest issue new users face.  There are a lot of these in the New Users forum, and there are probably a lot of new users who don't use (or even know about) the forums and submit help tickets about it.  I definitely got the impression long ago that it was the single biggest source of customer support tickets.  I don't know if that's still the case, but it seems to have been the driver behind developing DIM, and then Connect, and now DazCentral, so I suspect it still is.

    Absolutely. In my TL;DR comments, I do actually acknowledge this, and acknowledge DAZ for their choice addressing that future. But it is clearly not intended or designed around the needs of veteran users (who would frequent any of the forums). That's fine, but it wasn't clear who DAZ meant when asserting 'we heard your voices' in the announcement. I assumed they meant us.

    Yes, I agree completely -- the thread title and first post should have made clear that this was for new users.  It's certainly not "your new Content Manager" for me, and I think it won't fit the needs of most veteran users.

    some good points/corrections - I must of given up before the DIM issues were fixed.

    thanks for the response/thoughts.

    --ms

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 75,797
    UHF said:

    Near as I can tell, this doesn't do anything useful.

    The only feature I need is the ability to determine if a product has been updated since I last downloaded it.  i.e. a remedial level of revision control that has been availble planet wide for the last 50 years or so.  Heck, even putting a version number on downloaded files would be incredibly massively horrifically monsterously valuable.  I CRAVE THAT.

    DIM already does this, for installed content and for content with the zip (or at least the matching .dsx file) in the Downloads folder.

    UHF said:

    I don't and most likely never will use so called 'smart content' as it requires the maintenance and sorting of materials as well as a duplication of the existing database (the file system).   It also suffers from massive clutter so.. meh.

    The file system isn't a database, which is the whole point - the CMS (of which Smart Content is only a part) allows organisation without moving fiels around, which means things can be duplicated (placed in more than one category) for a minimal amount of additional data.

    UHF said:

    Maybe I'm wrong... does Daz Central handle normal use of Daz Content?  Namely moving files around and sorting content?

     

  • SpottedKittySpottedKitty Posts: 7,232
    UHF said:
    The only feature I need is the ability to determine if a product has been updated since I last downloaded it.  i.e. a remedial level of revision control that has been availble planet wide for the last 50 years or so.  Heck, even putting a version number on downloaded files would be incredibly massively horrifically monsterously valuable.  I CRAVE THAT.

    Seconded.

    Ironically, the previous system of content downloads, the last major change before DAZ switched from executable installers to the current system of zip downloads, did incorporate a sort of version number in the file name. It was handy, but it fell down a bit with download sizes so big they needed to be split into multiple installers.

    Something else that was done a few store changes before that (in the pre-DIM days, so everyone had to download manually) was putting a column for the "last updated" date in the store downloads page. This one fell down because DAZ kept forgetting to update the "last update" data.

  • Between DIM and searching the store with the DAZ Deals browser addon, I think there is more functionality for the way I do things, but I'm glad that DAZ has created something for new users. 

     

  • N_R ArtsN_R Arts Posts: 1,084

    I've only just checked the Products section of my account, and found this. 

    After reading this thread, I'll be sticking with DIM. 

    Someone said about DRM and third-party content. Imagine getting rid of all of the competition, so that your product is the only thing left... (I'm not aiming that at Daz, it's just DRM in general). 

    Although, if this DRM thing is making a comeback, I won't be supporting it. I like my Content Library the way it is.

     

  • mavantemavante Posts: 734

    Still installing and organizing manually like its 1999.

    Thanks Daz, but no thanks.

    laughyescool

  • UHFUHF Posts: 400

    Richard... All I can do now to see if something has been updated is to redownload it, and count bytes.  Revision control from Daz and managed by daz is a complete and total fail.   For instance.. Keicy in the store has an update coming.. I dunno when.  I dunno if its there.. I cant tell at all.  So Richard I've downlaoded it like 4 times now, just to check.  Nope not updated.    (This would be less of a concern if you folks tested products.. But I constantly find bad files, and broken content.  Its so bad that I have a test library to bring in your products and verify them. Note: This is the reason you now have an update for Keicy.)

    There's another update coming for another product in your store (a bug I identified for the developer while I was testing it), and I was told that it would take like 35 days for that update to see your other customers. Oh and there's another update coming for another product with missing files that I found.  The list goes on and on.

    Other websites can tell me if there's been an update since I downloaded. Other websites display verson numbers which are useful even if they aren't part of the file name.. And clearly, I'm not the only person who's noticed that this is a real concern. (see above)

    And stop claiming a file system isn't a database.  It is.  From my perspective keeping and maintaining two data bases is just more work.  I'd still need to be familiar with both (the mess of installs and cleaned management database) in order to integrate other content.

    The only place I can't clean up right now is the parameter settings inside Genesis.  Its not too bad, but there are days... unhappy days... when I'm rummaging around in there trying to find where a morph was hidden.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 75,797
    UHF said:

    Richard... All I can do now to see if something has been updated is to redownload it, and count bytes.  Revision control from Daz and managed by daz is a complete and total fail.   For instance.. Keicy in the store has an update coming.. I dunno when.  I dunno if its there.. I cant tell at all.  So Richard I've downlaoded it like 4 times now, just to check.  Nope not updated.    (This would be less of a concern if you folks tested products.. But I constantly find bad files, and broken content.  Its so bad that I have a test library to bring in your products and verify them. Note: This is the reason you now have an update for Keicy.)

    There's another update coming for another product in your store (a bug I identified for the developer while I was testing it), and I was told that it would take like 35 days for that update to see your other customers. Oh and there's another update coming for another product with missing files that I found.  The list goes on and on.

    Other websites can tell me if there's been an update since I downloaded. Other websites display verson numbers which are useful even if they aren't part of the file name.. And clearly, I'm not the only person who's noticed that this is a real concern. (see above)

    I said Install Manager and Connect show if there is an update, if you are manually downloading then there is no indicator. You can use DIM to download but not to install if you want update notices with manual installation.

    UHF said:

    And stop claiming a file system isn't a database.  It is.  From my perspective keeping and maintaining two data bases is just more work.  I'd still need to be familiar with both (the mess of installs and cleaned management database) in order to integrate other content.

    The file systerm isn't a relational database, if you prefer - as far as the user is concerned it's just a list of containers with conrtent. If you used categories you would not need to do anything with the file system, just add to/rearrange the categories.

    UHF said:

    The only place I can't clean up right now is the parameter settings inside Genesis.  Its not too bad, but there are days... unhappy days... when I'm rummaging around in there trying to find where a morph was hidden.

     

  • UHFUHF Posts: 400

    The file system is a database, Richard is how Daz and Poser have always used it.  If you have new ideas that are different from how you use it, its probably not best to redfine its existing use.  There are plenty of solutions that satisfy your relational database desires while also continuing to use the software as it has always been used.  Off the top of my head,  just put all the files in a nice neat location, and put links to them where we traditonally and always have messed them around. (That would even play nice with your encryption.)   Another viable solution would be to put definition files (txt) in the directories that describe what's there.  Then if they got moved, you'd easily find them again.

     

    I guess I'll attempt to try DIM.  Of course failed, and I've wasted an hour so far with the official advice from Daz baing to uninstall everything (hunt for databases, and attempt to cause it to function.  Wow an aweful lot of people have had issue with it over the years.  (..and that didn't suprise me.)

    https://helpdaz.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/207496406-I-Cannot-Sign-Into-Daz-Connect-and-I-Get-a-Login-Failure-in-Daz-Studio-4-9

    After that I'll need to read all the documentation to attempt to configure it, and then it wants to download things?  And put them places?  Then I manually install my downloads, delete those downloads, and\or put them in my backups... and then Daz will magically tell me what version I have downloaded?

    Version numbers are like 5 characters, and you already track what I have.  Why so hard?

     

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