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Dawn looks reasonable.. always nice to have something that doesn't look just like every other Photoshopped female figure on a magazine cover.
I'll grab the starter pack Payday and fiddle around. :coolsmile:
Haters gonna hate.(shrug)
I want to have your babies. :lol:
Well here is a line up I did a while back for those interested to see the comparisons. To me, the best comparison is always to look at a model untextured to see the actual mesh shape and differences.
While that's a nice comparison Z using the V6 and Gia in there isn't really fair since they are both MORPHS of the Gene02F base. Dawn and your G2F are both BASE figures and thus fair. Too me they look very similar.
Folks keep saying that Dawn looks mannish. Well as a gay man that knows what a transgender person looks like up close and personal I can say that Dawn is all girl. Her arms area thicker and yes her shoulders are a bit wider to compensate for the thicker arms but her hips and legs are very similar to Genesis 02F so I don't get why folks are ripping this new figure up so much. Trust me when I say this... look at all your girl friends arms and tell me how many have perfectly toned skinny arms? Most don't. Most have thicker arms, bigger hips and a booty. One of my dearest girl friends is a very voluptuous woman and she's more of an average shape for today's world. As much as I wished so took better care of herself the fact remains that women of today's world could NEVER measure up to this sort of standard that this community is holding these base shapes too!
^^Unfortunately, that is predominantly what the market demands. Probably 95~98% of the 3d market demands for a woman fall under one of these categories:
A. Hot photoshopped model from a magazine cover
B. Hot and/or beefy model from a fantasy novel cover/ Marvel comicbook
C. Hot teen or young adult from a manga
Generally there is little variation in what is desired in any of these save body softness, muscle tone, lack;/degree of tan, and size/shape of eyes/face (and Dawn isn't trying to cover category C)
the fact remains that women of today’s world could NEVER measure up to this sort of standard that this community is holding these base shapes too!
While it's probably more severe with the female models, it's not as if the men of today could measure up to Michael 3 or 4 Base, either. The amount of muscle tone on Michael 4 base's arms is about what I've seen in the average college athlete (NOT bodybuilder), and the average modern male is by no means an athlete. In fact, both Michael 3 and 4 base possess very athletic body types, and they're also taller (though to a lesser degree) than the average male. And then of course there's the weight issue in the industrialized world (esp. the USA)
That problem has been recognized over on the Hivewire forums as well. It appears that one of the morphs already released for Dawn (Alexis, by 3D Universe) has JCM's that resolve that problem, and the suggestion has been raised that Alexis should be incorporated into the starter package.
Dawn with Dvl_Lvd's free Doe morph for Dawn, Mada's V4 Florabelle outfit autofitted to Dawn, Sarsa's Dawn basetexture with AoA SSS set to Wholemilk, Osaka hair by 3dCelebrity and my faerie ears. I think she's cute.
Agree to a degree that it is not fair comparing her to V6 and Gia, but to me its valid. You see, Dawn is a character, like V4, like V5 and V6. Just that the character is infused into the base. V6 and Gia use a universal base. So end result is you are comparing the character, not the base. Do we refer to Dawn as a base, or a character? That is how I look at it. Had they said yes Dawn is a base mesh and not a character, then fine, a V6 and Gia comparison is unfair and would be valid to only compare her to G2F. Most dont look at G2F as a character because she has no identity, I think that is the only difference. It's like saying she can only be compared to V4 and not the V4 shape for Genesis.
I see your point of view but if Dawn were renamed to Hivewire Base then then what?? Dawn would simply be a base figure and nothing more. If you add in a nice texture and hair style and clothing to the Genesis Female or the Genesis 02 Female base you then have added "identity" to those bases as well.
Ye it all depends on how you look at it and peoples views will always be different lol. To me be it base character or whatever doesn't mean much, only the end appearance, since that is what I am going to render.
Zev0, for me the big part of my attachment to Dawn is that she is a base with character/personality (that I like) instead of being just a base. I know it is irrational but I guess this is the way it works in this situation. From technical standpoint I'd compare her to other bases, because morphpacks tend vary more wildly and there will be always some morphpack character that does something better than a base figure, be it softer or more defined, older or younger, more realistic vs. more idealized body. Only comparison of character morphpacks like Alexis to other 3DUniverse realistic young females or some Thorne/Sarsa characters could work because they are more or less same character across different platforms.
YUP
Can't wait for Cath's Darren for Dawn..... I think folks will realize how brilliant this woman (Cath) really is with her skills.
I see your point of view and understand, like I said people will look at it differently, others just won't care.
JCMs? In my opinion, the rig and weight mapping should've been better. It's not just that one joint either. The whole torso looks awful when bent forward. The feet when bent backward reminds me of default V4's feet (and that's not a good thing).
Edit.
Just to clarify. What I mean is that fixing joint bending problems because of pivot point problems should be done through re-rigging, not JCMs.
Well, I agree with you on all counts :D
It's certainly possible to get good renders out of Dawn, even though, as I said, I don't really like the figure very much. A good artist can hide the most drastic shortcomings ^^
Well, that's actually the problem. Does Dawn look to you like she doesn't conform to today's beauty standards? To me, she looks like a photo model whose breast now consist entirely of silicon. Except her arms. She has the shoulders of a Ukranian weight lifter and the arms of a fifty year old butcher's woman.
I am exaggerating (a lot), of course, but it's that clash of styles (mostly) why she looks so weird to me. If you want an average woman, go for that. If you want a model, go for that. If you want an athlete, go for that. But don't frankenstein both together :D Particularly not for a base character.
----
The whole 'anatomically corretc thing is another can of worms. Dawns creators have stated that they're gonna leave that part of the third parties. I am not sure, but to me that sounds like code for 'lets let the Renderotica folks handle the adult stuff'. Which is a terrible idea, because most content over there is not very good. But even if it was, all 'additions' to V4 I've seen over there require the user to jump through a gazillion hoops to the textures right for every custom character.
Now I'm not saying that the future of a figure rests on it's potential in 3D porn, but I always had the impression that that is a market you might not want to dismiss either.
But the main question is, what dawn can do better than gn and gn2 despite load natively in poser? It's like the image that posted Puntomaus, she is cute but the thing is this figure could have been done with genesis alone with less effort, and its possible with best results.
Also seems gn2 is very underated by people and artists, almost seems people hates her, but they really tried her? It's just amazing the quality renders u can do with gn2 with so few effort even if u are just amateur. I am not pro in this world and i achived renders of 10 min that almost looks like real life with gn2.
In my opinion, my feelings for her started out, Blah-blah - and then went towards excited as I gave the possibility of her more thought, wishing to get in on developing characters for her.
However.... I spent an entire DAY and a half with her. From that time, I feel that she most certainly needs more work. I tried to morph her face into various features I often use, and her NOSE is a WRECK! Worse NOSE ever when it comes to morphing and shaping.
While I like her mouth as she is, only the most experienced character creators will be able to challenge it. As I'm just learning, I found it difficult to work with. But I'll continue to try.
Her forearms and hands bend wrong as well. And I've found other morphing issues.
To be fair, all new characters come out the gate with serious issues. Perhaps in a year or two, she will be sensational. But for now, I won't be investing in her. MECH4D is doing an amazing job on the male version, WOW - talk about looking good. I WILL no doubt invest in him if he doesn't come off too much like M4 - I don't really need another M4.
Right now, my attention is on V4 with all the fixes - because with them, she is outstanding! For Poser and Daz Studio. If I'm not using V4+Fixes, I'm using Gen2F or V6 - I positively LOVE V6 and I hope that Daz spends time with directing more support and content for her. Clothing issues exist for V6 & Genesis figures, and we all know why. But if I had to choose between the two - Genesis2, V6 hands down.
Because my primary focus is REALISM... Dawn falls waaaay short. She can't touch V4w/fixes nor can she touch V6 - right now that is, but I'm certain they're working on improving as we speak. Because of V4 & fixes... they have one heck of a battle ahead. It's not V6 they have to come up against, but V4 and fixes... due to them, SHE - V4 is even V6's competition!
Victoria 4 w/Fixes & Morphs.... is still the WINNER by YARDS...
1.) She works in Poser and Daz Studio
2.) She morphs face wize, better than Genesis & Dawn - the variety is amazing as to how she can look.
3.) She has support galore, content galore
4.) Clothing fits her wonderfully without the vacuum curse that Genesis and Gen2 is suffering under
5.) TOO many people are MORE THAN satisfied with the results they get with her
6.) People are broke and times are hard
Dawn has one helluva MOUNTAIN to climb... and V6 is only so far head, while V4 stands at the top smiling. Right now as things stand, SHE cannot be TOUCHED by either.
For now... my money goes towards V4 and V6... that's where I will remain. In Poser I use my Fixed-V4-all-morphs-loaded. In Daz Studio I use Genesis2-V6 and sometimes Genesis V5... this is going to be the case for many. My concern is for the vendors that took off and jumped onto the boat of Dawn - she's going to grow, but not as well as SOME may need her to.
Time will tell...
I think that Genesis2 & V6 are the BEST YET so far! SHE is AMAZING! Just not enough stuff out yet for her, but it's coming along. She's hated possibly because she still doesn't work well in Poser. If her content started matching V4's in clothing and ethnic characters, I would stop using V4 altogether, but V6 - doesn't have enough BLACK characters.
I was hyped to start making them for Dawn, but I think I will do it for V6 instead - since she is my favorite.
...exactly. How useful was the base V4 without the Morphs++ or Base Genesis without the Evolution Morphs. or G2F without the Body/head morphs? My test, try to make a petite preteen character with the base, it can't be done without the additional morphs or scripting your own custom ones.
The Dawn Starter Morphs are in effect her "++" or "Evolution" morphs.
However even with their base morph expansion both V4 and Genesis I still needed additional morphs whether via character or extra/"Elite"expansions to create the petite character for my story work. Looking at the Starter Morphs the basis for that is already there in the "Breast Gone" morph (in my previous post I was mistaken about this being part of the base character - apologies) which wasn't available with V4 or Genesis/G2F. Dialing down the breast size on these two figures, even with the basic morph expansions, usually resulted in the mesh collapsing and distorting after a certain point (which also affected clothing fits). To get a more petite/nearly flat chested appearance required either one of Thorne/Sarsa's fey characters, one of Jamminwolf's "age stepped" characters, and/or Steph4 and the NPMs for V4. For Genesis. it was YT5 Julie (or through the Gen X plugin, Steph4 and the NPMs).
Clothing support for DAZ Dawn is worse than DAZ V4 clothes. Apparently because the weight mapping is different you need a different figure file for DAZ and well as different textures. Given how few PAs bother to produce DAZ mats, this makes it even less likely they will bother with DS.
Really? Wow, that sucks. Yeah, it does sound like Dawn will be a Poser-only product unless the staff can fix the cross-platform rigging issue... Looks like we're going to see how it feels to be on the DSON importer-side of things...
But seriously, I can't think of any other major figure that does this. All the other 3rd party figures I can think of are either mostly compatible with DAZ (or even more compatible if you count free fan scripts/addons), are fully compatible thanks to the PA teaming up with someone who knows their way around DAZ, or they just keep the model exclusive to Poser.
I mean no offense to the creators of Dawn, but these problems make her seem like a very amateurish product. OTOH, to play devil's advocate, maybe things aren't actually as bad as they look-- maybe the creators hit the wall with making Dawn work and translate between both programs, gave up, and released the product as-is (with a free starter version like what DAZ did with Genesis) on the hopes that either fans will create free workarounds, or even better, that someone in the shadows emerges and gives them advice on how to fix the rigging and weight-mapping problem (and in best-case scenario, joins the Dawn PA team). And then the original Dawn starter and commercial products would be fixed and free updates would be provided for those who purchased her before. But who knows.
Also seems gn2 is very underated by people and artists, almost seems people hates her, but they really tried her?
Maybe they're like me, and hate her because she barged in and, within a 2 week period, made her predecessor obsolete after just a 2-3 year run. This despite being a mere 1/3rd as versatile, and having been released with next to no support because shge was kept top secret from all but a few privelaged PAs before being rushed out the door, rather than wait until her male counterpart and a few more characters and morphs were up and ready by the PAs who were left out of the loop.
Oh, I think Genesis 02 Female is brilliant in the rigging and weight mapping areas, no doubt about it but I'm with allot of folks, clothing and morph support out of the gate was allot to be desired. Plus being a male mesh person again with releasing the female mesh first is and always will be off putting to me. Dawn might have her issues but Cath is busily creating a male character with textures and plenty of clothing options to make getting the Dawn base worth while to have SOMETHING that can be the male counterpart to Genesis 02 Female for the time being.
There were no secrets about G2F...all the pa's knew she was coming in advance of her release.
Nothing was rushed
Off topic and I don't mean to derail (great discussions going on here). In the realm of ethnic characters, there is definitely a lack on Gen1 and Gen2 of those sadly. If you do develop some nice ones for G2F / V6, keep us in mind. :) We're always looking for PAs to do high quality work if it can meet the, admittedly very high, standards of our product development team and QA.
Oh, I think Genesis 02 Female is brilliant in the rigging and weight mapping areas, no doubt about it but I'm with allot of folks, clothing and morph support out of the gate was allot to be desired. Plus being a male mesh person again with releasing the female mesh first is and always be off putting to me. Dawn might have her issues but Cath is busily creating a male character with textures and plenty of clothing options to make getting the Dawn base worth while to have SOMETHING that can be the male counterpart to Genesis 02 Female for the time being.
I think I should agree, V6 had prolly the worst marketing ever on a figure by daz, I also was suprised that gia was realeased and now seems girl 6 before M6, but i think they will release M6 and will be so amazing as V6.
I suppose its al politics, it's like there is a fight daz vs SM and they don't notice that are dividing the audience, its seems like in videogames, u are from xbox, ps3 or both?
Tell me if i am wrong but i start to think that the ideal world would be that daz realeases their figures natively for poser, SM allow it and artists make their items compatible for both programs, the problem in this ideal world is that seems that none of the three parts would give up, and seems dawn was born to repair this, but i think will fail if things don't change a lot.
Off topic and I don't mean to derail (great discussions going on here). In the realm of ethnic characters, there is definitely a lack on Gen1 and Gen2 of those sadly. If you do develop some nice ones for G2F / V6, keep us in mind. :) We're always looking for PAs to do high quality work if it can meet the, admittedly very high, standards of our product development team and QA.
Absolutely! I'm very picky - they would have to be outstanding, I've already purchased photos and working to get my book done, once I do, I'll be turning my attention to making Ethnic characters, REALISTIC classy and stunning... or else I can't use them. My mind is racing, and my plan is absolute - V6 is who I'm going with because she's lovely!
i gave a try playing with Dawn once she was released... not impressed that much and the fact she's not compatible with Genesis or Victoria 4 makes her totally useless to my eyes like some other figures like Michelle or Terai Yuki
since i already dislike Genesis 2 and it's descendants, i'll keep on playing with Genesis and will consider, sometimes, to get some Genesis 2 stuff since there is a better compatibility between them (thanks to Sickleyeld)
Not sure how the topic moved to a comparison of Dawn to Genesis. Whenever I try to use DSON Genesis or G2F in Poser I usually end up thinking hey why am I doing this here... all the tools I use for Genesis are in DAZ Studio. So for me going forward I think it will be Genesis/Genesis 2 characters in DAZ Studio ... and Dawn or V4 in Poser. So I don't think Dawn is going that far for DAZ Studio (I downloaded but only installed the Poser version) but I see her as a good companion for V4 in Poser (only after all the tools are released to make use of everybody's vast V4 content for Dawn). But yea V4 is safe... her reign will continue and her legacy as one of the best 3D models ever made is secure.
While I'd agree that Dawn needs more work (and words "Bigger and better morphpacks!" should be written in 300pt font anywhere she is) I'd disagree on several points.
If she is given a better range of morphs than defaults and starter morphpack (which are too few in number to be compared to Evolution or Morphs++ pack) her nose and mouth aren't any harder to morph than any other figure. I didn't touch ZBrush on purpose there, but shaping wasn't any difficult if her morph amount would be around Genepool. Just instead of going from softer to more defined you go a different route.
V4 default bends aren't good as my picture in this tread could show and are certainly more limited than either Genesis, G2F or Dawn have out of box. I might incur a lot of hate for saying that but I think V4 is holding the evolution of both Poser and DS figures back and should be made unavailable somehow to new buyers for things to start finally progress out of her in, at least, mapping departments, and for vast majority of 3rd party vendors to get out of comfort zone six years old. People tend to cling to what is familiar, and, for example, if there will be no ban/penalty on boobsacks in clothes they'd keep doing boobsacks in clothing because it is what familiar since early days and easier for them to make. I'm talking only from my own experience but switching to weightmapping from traditional rigging wasn't easy - lots to learn, some stuff might work better, some stuff doesn't work at first, - but I like weightmapping more now even if ghost handles are still a PITA to make.
Dawn, at least, has one black character on release and I don't recall without doing research any other major female figures since and including V4 having the same on day 1. I also liked that her initial clothes aside of inevitable bikini included sensible tee, jeans and combat boots. I can dress her like a amateur journalist or undercover cop which I, as I recall, I couldn't have done with any other DAZ3D female figures and their release content upon release.
I would completely disagree that V4 face morphs better than Genesis. Only with extreme morphing I was able to get rid of puffier (for the lack of better word) V4 face. I know people were successful in turning V4 into many unrecognizable things but I remember a big contest thread where they tried just that, get rid of default V4 look and make her unpredictable because default look infused and still infuses most of V4 characters. I don't recall the need for same thread for Genesis and with huge Genepool neither I do recall a deliberate need to get rid of his default shape in my processes - defaults just go away naturally.
Clothing-wise Genesis was and still is the most balanced figure. While a lot of stuff for it was still skimwear, there was a noticeable increase in sensible wear, and a fact that females could wear male things only benefited both. With G2F the vast majority of releases are skimwear of pretty bad quality (no morphs, boobsacks), and I bet Girl 6 will come with outfits that nothing more than stripper boots, ridiculously cut dress with open midriff and long gloves; I don't even think it would be a single outfit like that.
While I'd agree that Dawn in need of some improvements, people who made her aren't new to creating and, more importantly, maintaining figures - this is why first time in years I have something like faith in addition to irrational attachment. I doubt that after release those guys would sit all happy with themselves twiddling thumbs and do nothing to improve this figure. This intermediate period between release and first major updates is the most difficult because some vendors would want to play it safe too and bottle up half-way returning to what is familiar. V4 herself went through V.1 and V.2 version and it wasn't until several years later she got her first armpit fixing JCMs (which were, if I'm not mistaken, done by Will Dupre as Christmas 24 giveaway).
As for G2F I don't hate her as a figure, I just extremely dislike what she represents, which is an overhyped stagnation, at my opinion. She is slightly improved in skin/rig from Genesis - not same big jump Genesis improved on V4 or V4 on V3 or V3 on V2. She has mostly Genesis mesh, somewhat adjusted Genesis-like UVs, again, nothing (r)evolutionary new, and yet she presented almost like a second coming of important religious figure. Nothing new in technology (what about inventing weightmaps that autoadjust along the rigging, um?) and a lot of functionality was lost or intentionally omitted that shouldn't be ever lost or omitted. I'd wait until Genesis 3 generation, to see if things'd improve there. 'Genesis' 2 generation feels lost to me and, despite all possible preparations, extremely rushed due to how insignificant on a scale of previous generations G2F improvements are and how much should have been done by DAZ3D or commissioned for release but never was done or commissioned.
I suppose its al politics, it’s like there is a fight daz vs SM and they don’t notice that are dividing the audience, its seems like in videogames, u are from xbox, ps3 or both?
Actually, it's more like the gamecube-PS2-Xbox split. Before which you already had the N64-Playstation-Sega split (but Sega was dying by that point because they made the mistake of releasing a new console every 2 friggin' years-- not only did this bankrupt them, but it also drove away fans and 3rd party developers alike who couldn't keep up.) Come to think of it, the customer end of the Sega situation is comparable to the V4 - Genesis - V6 problem. The hatred seen in some customers for V6 stems from the fact that so many customers just shelled out the cash to make their Genesis library awesome, and here comes along a new model they have to buy, and now they have to re-purchase a bunch of products just to make her work. And then you hace the folks who already re-purchased their V4 library for Genesis, and NOW they have to do the same in order to make V6 as versatile as her precedessors-- and even then she won't have the versatility of Genesis 1 (unless you count the technique for transferring Genesis's morphs to Genesis 2).
DAZ_Jon, if you are watching this thread, can I inquire on DAZ3D position on redistributable (but still very properly RTEncoded against DAZ3D materials and not working without them) clones of V4/Genesis for Dawn?