3Delight Surface and Lighting Thread

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  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,904

    I was never able to make that happen, and the overhead of setting up point based properly ... faster to just set it up in Iray.

    (I frequently hit the problem of spending hours setting up point based, it still was too slow, and then switching to Iray)

     

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,904

    But a slightly less realistic 3DL is often really awesome, so whoopdedoo. ;)

     

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,151

    I think my brain exploded TWICE trying to take in all that info in the PDF!  lmao

  • Takeo.KenseiTakeo.Kensei Posts: 1,303
    RAMWolff said:

    Hi,

    Looking for some advice.  I'm so ensconced in using iRAY that I've forgotten how to achieve reflections in the eyes of human figures in 3DL.  I'm NOT working with DAZ figures so help in understanding what will give me the best reflective quality to areas like the Cornea, Sclera, Iris and Pupil would be most helpful in a more "every figure" sort of way. 

    Also, I'm trying to keep it simple so not using any of the advanced shader systems, mostly what ever the "Default" DAZ 3Delight Shader system provides.  I get all messed up when I try to use the SSS and Uber advanced.  Simple is what I'm after but something that looks pretty good, esp in mid-range or close up camera shots.

    If I need to fake it I have maps created for that as well but I'd prefer to get something out of reflections from lights in the scene if possible.

    Thanks so much!

    Richard

    No need to fake and you should be able to get that with the available shaders in DS. Here is the base idea : put reflection and specular on the cornea and make it transparent. On the Sclera just add reflection

    I used Ubersurface on the Cornea and Sclera. Set Index of Refraction at 1.36 (1.33 is water)

    Cornea : Opacity at 1%.  Reflection, Refraction and Specular Active. Reflection => Raytraced and adjust strength ( 0-20 % ). Also adjust specular parameters to your liking

    Sclera : Opacity at 100%. Reflection and specular active. I tested at Reflection strength at around 10%

    If you want to use IBL lighting, put an uberenvironment light then put a map in the ambient channel of the environment sphere and set it as Visible in Render

    Any lights should be seen either via specular channel or reflection channel

    Oh, question -- in expert folks' opinion, which skin shader base is 'best'?

    HSS, Uber, AoA SSS, ... other?

    'Best' being defined as looking good and easy to work with.

    Hands down I'd say mine, but I'm the only one who can play with. Otherwise, I barely used AOA because I find it tooooooo slow. So in the DS available shaders I'd say Ubersurface

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,151
    edited July 2017

    Thanks so much.  I have to agree, the shader I downloaded from ShareCG was good but SO SO slow.  I waited 7 minutes for it to even start rendering the skin so I had to back out of that, thank god for Ctl Z, yikes.  So not fully understanding "put reflection and specular on the cornea"?  Are there settings you can recommend me playing with.  SO no maps just turning on those two channels with all else set to default? 

    Do you have an pupil settings you can share to get a glint?  These are my current settings but what I'm getting is the geometry lit up so you see the angular striations showing up, esp in close ups and that's pretty ugly...

     

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  • Takeo.KenseiTakeo.Kensei Posts: 1,303
    edited July 2017

    Be sure to have no ambient in the shaders.

    Did it again with base G3F to be sure of the settings

    I think I forgot to mention to activate Raytrace in the Environment sphere

    So with G3F I selected all AOA surface and replaced them with Ubersurface with Ctrl+Click

    G3F has eyemoisture which is used for the eye raytraced reflection by default. I disabled Reflection on that surface for the example but it can be used for the whole eye reflection and refraction

    I used DS default HDR "DTHDR-Ruins" to light the scene with UE in occlusion with directional shadow mode.

    The Iris and Pupils should be pure diffuse surface. Disable other effects.

    When rendering you should have something like the following

    If you adjust the Cornea corretely, the sunlight from the HDR map should show in the eyes

    Then if you add a distant light in the front that should also show up


    Post edited by Takeo.Kensei on
  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,151

    Pretty happy with all my fussing around.  Thanks to everyone.  This is going to be a toon pack for Hivewire so this result is pretty much on par with my results I achieved using the iRay engine, maybe even better... I am, and have been, using the UberEnvironment 2 for most of the lighting.  I have one additional spot light in the scene aimed right at his eyes. 

    Thanks again SO much!

     

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  • Takeo.KenseiTakeo.Kensei Posts: 1,303

    RAMWolff said:

    Pretty happy with all my fussing around.  Thanks to everyone.  This is going to be a toon pack for Hivewire so this result is pretty much on par with my results I achieved using the iRay engine, maybe even better... I am, and have been, using the UberEnvironment 2 for most of the lighting.  I have one additional spot light in the scene aimed right at his eyes. 

    Thanks again SO much!

    Happy for you. Good luck then with your package

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,151
    edited July 2017

    Thank you.  I think I actually got a good working plain old 3DL set of settings that look pretty good.  I'm all about simplicity so I try my best to avoid SSS and all that when I can.... whatcha' think? 

     

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  • Takeo.KenseiTakeo.Kensei Posts: 1,303
    RAMWolff said:

    Thank you.  I think I actually got a good working plain old 3DL set of settings that look pretty good.  I'm all about simplicity so I try my best to avoid SSS and all that when I can.... whatcha' think? 

     

    I think that SSS is overused and overated in Poser and DAZ community. I don't think it is a determinant factor for a good render and even less for a toon render.

    I didn't try toon rendering for a long time but I think I would expect fast render time for such thing. A workflow with the Ubershaders may not be optimal for that matter but that's actually the best you can get inside DS if you don't design your own shaders.

    I didn't check if there is a way to do it but I think the fastest would be an OpenGL toon render with customized shader codes considering today's Gfx card power

    With 3dl, to get quick renders, you must avoid as much as possible occlusion, and all raytraced effect. If you can limit that just to non blurry reflections in the eyes that should be quick enough. There is certainly a possibility to have a good balance between speed and features

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,151

    Agreed.  My only niggle with my final result above is that I could NOT get the Sclera to reflect properly regardless of what I tried to do.  I worked every slider, must have done 10 or more test renders and the eyewhite just remains matt.  Grrrrrrrrrrr

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,904

    Yeah, for my more artistic filtering things, occlusion and SSS are almost always pointless. I'm also finding that at the 1080 resolution, my 3DL renders are competing decently with Iray (because I can double the size before running various art filters and it doesn't matter).

    Is it technically feasible for 3DL to use GPU at all? (Not for Daz, but just generally speaking)

    Because that would be cool.

     

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,904

    It seems to me that a lot of AO-based lighting is a HUGE process hog, and most of the time I'm better off just setting up more lights.

    Is that accurate?

     

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,151

    I'd just use UberEnvironment2.  Works very well for most of my needs when using 3DL

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,904

    Most ao is slower, imo, whether aoa or ue2

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,151

    hmmm, not finding that at all with UE2. 

     

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933

    Is it technically feasible for 3DL to use GPU at all? (Not for Daz, but just generally speaking)

    Nope, at least not yet. See, the 3Delight devs are working for the VFX scene, and for the movie industry it's still more feasible (cheaper and faster) to set up Linux render farms running max core CPUs than play with GPU - VRAM limitations are a huge issue. Production scenes can have terabytes of resources like textures and models.

    Maybe it will happen in the future, just not yet.

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933
    RAMWolff said:

    Thanks so much for the links.  I think I have that PDF somewhere but can't find it so redownloaded it.  :-)

    You're welcome!

    RAMWolff said:

    I think my brain exploded TWICE trying to take in all that info in the PDF!  lmao

    It took me at least a year to write it IIRC, so it probably lends itself best to being read gradually as well =)

    RAMWolff said:

    Agreed.  My only niggle with my final result above is that I could NOT get the Sclera to reflect properly regardless of what I tried to do.  I worked every slider, must have done 10 or more test renders and the eyewhite just remains matt.  Grrrrrrrrrrr

    Eyewhites are tricky, even in the full physically based mode that I run. One thing that may be is that your diffuse is a bit too white and it sort of overpowers the reflection. I guess toon style calls for brighter scleras, but you could try playing with the balance of diffuse and reflection strengths to see if it may bring out highlights more without getting the surface too dark overall.

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933

    It seems to me that a lot of AO-based lighting is a HUGE process hog, and most of the time I'm better off just setting up more lights.

    Is that accurate?

    Depends. "Artist time" vs "CPU time", that sort of thing. We've all seen fairly photorealistic VFX done way before AO/IBL was common. But that look often meant literally dozens, if not hundreds of lights. Remember that test image by Mathaeus on the Softimage board? 50 spots with deep shadow maps... true'n'oldschool.

    http://www.si-community.com/community/viewtopic.php?p=35283#p35283

    So whichever way you do your stuff is up to you =)

    And then everyone will have their own idea of acceptable rendertime. For instance, I render using my shaders only, GI, pathtracing and all that. Average rendertime for an approx 1200x1800 render of mine (full environment, not just a figure in the middle of nowhere) is around an hour on my laptop (specs in signature). 1.5+ hour if there is something intensive like a mirror covering the whole wall. It's perfectly fine with me. When I rendered on my older laptop in 2012 using vanilla shaders and AO only, I got about the same rendertimes.

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933
    RAMWolff said:

    Thanks so much.  I have to agree, the shader I downloaded from ShareCG was good but SO SO slow.  I waited 7 minutes for it to even start rendering the skin so I had to back out of that, thank god for Ctl Z, yikes. 

    That's the downside of the old REYES way of doing SSS (the only way vanilla DS shaders can do it ATM), without the "irradiance" channel and the SSS shading rate being an important factor. If you use physically correct SSS scales in this scenario, you need low (computationally intense) shading rates. And when you add any sort of "global illumination" even if it's just AO, the prepass may take this long. It will proceed at a normal pace once it's done, but yeah if you're not used to it, it may seem a problem.

    The trick to gain speed here is rebalance the diffuse/SSS for using a higher (more translucent) SSS scale that can work with a higher shading rate. I used to be very much against this (some people may remember =D) back then when REYES was the only option we had and I wanted my faery-like translucent skins without much diffuse. These days when I have to go back to the vanilla DS for some tests (usually when other people request something), I will also use at least a 0.15 scale and a shading rate of 4, and some balanced diffuse.

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,151

    Hi,

    Yes, I tried making the Sclera darker but that didn't do anything to show a highlight so not sure what else to try. 

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933
    RAMWolff said:

    Hi,

    Yes, I tried making the Sclera darker but that didn't do anything to show a highlight so not sure what else to try. 

    :(

    Could it be it's just an unlucky light/camera angle combination? And what have you tried, raytraced reflection, maps or specular highlights only?

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,151

    Not tried the specular only trick but yea, I have UE2 with a nice map in both channels (light and the UE have the same map so when I rotate it you can see the lighting difference at different angles so I've tried a few of those to try to get some highlights on the Sclera but nada. 

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933
    RAMWolff said:

    Not tried the specular only trick but yea, I have UE2 with a nice map in both channels (light and the UE have the same map so when I rotate it you can see the lighting difference at different angles so I've tried a few of those to try to get some highlights on the Sclera but nada. 

    So you did enable raytracing of the environment sphere like Takeo described and enabled reflection on the sclera, right? Otherwise it won't really work.

    You could plug the same map in the reflection colour of the DS default. It will look sort of reversed, though, as compared to when you put this map onto a DS primitive sphere (the UE2 sphere may or may not be UV-mapped differently, I honestly don't remember). If you did decide to use UberSurface on the sclera, it will look better (then the map goes not into the colour but in the dedicated "reflection map" slot, and the reflection mode is "environment map"). But with UberSurface you will need to set up that artistic Fresnel...

  • Takeo.KenseiTakeo.Kensei Posts: 1,303
    RAMWolff said:

    Agreed.  My only niggle with my final result above is that I could NOT get the Sclera to reflect properly regardless of what I tried to do.  I worked every slider, must have done 10 or more test renders and the eyewhite just remains matt.  Grrrrrrrrrrr

    Should work. Just activate reflection.

    The tricky part is that sclera is white. So only a very bright light can be seen. Tested by rotating UE by -75 deg in the Y axis and putting a distant light coming from the left

    I've also put a red sphere and tube in front. You barely see the sphere on the sclera

    If you have a look at your own sclera you'll barely see reflection too. Only bright light

    Yeah, for my more artistic filtering things, occlusion and SSS are almost always pointless. I'm also finding that at the 1080 resolution, my 3DL renders are competing decently with Iray (because I can double the size before running various art filters and it doesn't matter).

    Is it technically feasible for 3DL to use GPU at all? (Not for Daz, but just generally speaking)

    Because that would be cool.

     

    I don't really see the point of an other GPU path tracer with all the limitation going with it. There was a dead project from Nvidia to do a Renderman compliant GPU renderer. It's not very advanced and you need an old Nvidia Card. Seek for Gelato

    There is also an other project in the same vein and still alive but I can't remember the name

     

    It seems to me that a lot of AO-based lighting is a HUGE process hog, and most of the time I'm better off just setting up more lights.

    Is that accurate?

     

    Just AO is still OK. It's AO + transmap that can be very slow. Or raytracing multiple diffuse and specular bounce

    Just adding light is tricky. You don't get the same shading. You can try but I find that very difficult

    First with just one IBL

    Second with two distant light and one spotlight.

    For me there is a loss in time and quality. With a close up render there's not even a possible comparison

    It really depends on the type on shading and render you want. There may be some useable case

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 40,656
    edited July 2017
    RAMWolff said:

    hmmm, not finding that at all with UE2. 

     

    ...the last render i did with UE2 took sixteen and a half hours. the longest Iray render was around 7 hours. (and I'm rendering on the CPU with only 10.7 GB of available memory, a good chunk of which is taken by the scene file and Daz programme so oft times it dumps to even slower swap mode). 

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,151

    Thanks but as mentioned, I'm not using any SSS or any fancy shmancy shaders... just the defaults for the 3DL side of things as it's not my main rendering engine of choice.  IIRC the ability to turn reflection off and on is under that shader system.  Reflection is set to 94%, Color is pure white, nothing, flat.  Shouldn't but that's what I'm getting! 

  • Takeo.KenseiTakeo.Kensei Posts: 1,303
    RAMWolff said:

    Thanks but as mentioned, I'm not using any SSS or any fancy shmancy shaders... just the defaults for the 3DL side of things as it's not my main rendering engine of choice.  IIRC the ability to turn reflection off and on is under that shader system.  Reflection is set to 94%, Color is pure white, nothing, flat.  Shouldn't but that's what I'm getting! 

    Make sure reflection works : disable all lights then render. If your sclera stays black then something is wrong

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,151

    So leave the Sky Dome on or turn EVERYTHING off?  With EVERYTHING off there is no bounce so there is nothing to reflect. 

  • Takeo.KenseiTakeo.Kensei Posts: 1,303

    The skydome must be visible of course

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