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3Delight Surface and Lighting Thread

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  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,890
    edited December 1969

    Bulge .4 or 1.0 and why?

  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited December 1969

    It has to do with the way Daz eyes have been done since Gen4. By default, the cornea is flat and the iris is too big. The adjustments make the eye shape far more natural. I have a PDF called V4 Eyes Workshop that details this, but, it's very old and I doubt there is a working link for it. I don't know why Daz did nothing to the eyes but that's the way it is.

    CHEERS!

  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029
    edited April 2015

    All three eyes still looks way too 'toonish'. Doesn't fit with the skin around that area.

    Rogerbee said:

    That's true, but, you don't always have something to reflect in the screen and they don't always look good when all you get is a reflection of the lights in the scene.

    That's easy enough to solve. Enable the UE2 environment sphere or load a test scene. Even on an empty scene (without any background), raytraced reflection will actually pickup the 'checkered' pattern of the alpha background.

    And no, the iris will not look 'bigger' if you enable refraction in the cornea (with an IOR of 1.4).

    Post edited by wowie on
  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited December 1969

    Don't get what you mean,

    Anyway with regard to what William was asking, it so happens we were discussing it almost exactly a year ago:

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/21611/P435

    CHEERS!

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933
    edited December 1969

    Rogerbee said:

    I had another crack at Rob's eyes and loaded the same shader and settings for the cornea as I did the eye reflection. I previously left out the cornea as I thought that just the eye reflection would be enough.


    The reflections look good, but the materials appear somewhat too bright overall. What would happen if you dial down diffuse strengths on sclera and iris? Won't their brightness be more realistic?


    --------

    zarcondeegrissom said:

    I've often looked at figures, and wished there was a 'Ray-trace' reflection option to go with all the pseudo environment maps.

    Incredibly it is there. Just not in the publicly available DS shaders. Oh, okay, right: there are a few shader mixer networks like those Jepe used for his Sheetz IIRC, but they aren't done the easy and elegant "2015" way (because shader mixer seems to be stuck closer to 2010 as far as 3Delight goes).

    And I counted your vote for the thread name =)

    --------

    Even on an empty scene (without any background), raytraced reflection will actually pickup the 'checkered' pattern of the alpha background.

    Sounds curious... Do you have an example render?

    And no, the iris will not look 'bigger' if you enable refraction in the cornea (with an IOR of 1.4).

    The pupil will. At least, with my iris morphs it does look bigger under a refractive cornea =) The iris obviously stays the same.

  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029
    edited April 2015

    Rogerbee said:

    Don't get what you mean,

    The sclera should be just a tad darker near the eyelids and no brighter than the skin (and actually be a bit darker since the eye surface refracts a bit of light. The outer iris should be quite dark, which is what you get if you set the cornea to use refraction at 1.4. And as mustakettu pointed out, the pupil does get a bit bigger (since it's magnified by the refraction).

    Most of it can be from plain ambient occlusion, but having too high color values or strength can cause problems.

    Anna doesn't have the best sclera around (way too 'bright'), but here's a render. This is generally the V6AnnaSSS preset with Photo Studio Kit 2, although I have tweaked the skin/lip fresnel a bit (I think it was 90% for the 1st specular, 2nd specular was unchanged) and changed the 2nd diffuse roughness to 2, so the skin looks more rough

    Anna.jpg
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    Post edited by wowie on
  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029
    edited December 1969

    Mustakettu85 said:

    Sounds curious... Do you have an example render?

    This is with IPR. Non IPR is the same. See the checkered pattern on the shoes?

    IPR.jpg
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  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited December 1969

    I was toying with Anna and I dialed down the diffuse on the sclera and irises to 75% with a diffuse colour of 128 128 128 and I dialled the refraction IOR to 1.4 on the cornea and eye surface. She does have green eyes, but, they reflect so much of the background colour that they match that for colour. Is that normal!?

    Here's a render and the skin is dialled from Mustakettu's tutorial

    CHEERS!

    Anna_Musk_MAT.jpg
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  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited December 1969

    Rob and Bjorn now, same diffuse, same IOR. They look good to me. I remember Wowie saying that Bjorn's sclera looked a bit blue, well, I think that's the background colour reflected in them.

    CHEERS!

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    Bjorn_Eyes.jpg
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  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited December 1969

    Bjorn's eye close up. is this correct!?

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  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited April 2015

    Ok, I tried a different pose and a different camera angle. Then I put a diffuse colour of 157 157 157 in. I think it's ok, what do you think!?

    CHEERS!

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    Post edited by Rogerbee on
  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited April 2015

    Rob from another angle and I wasn't feeling the irises, so I swapped them for a pair of Anna's and dialled the size to the same as Bjorn's.

    CHEERS!

    PS (In case anyone is wondering if Rob's head is from a character, it isn't, I dialled it myself not long after I got M6. He reminds me a little of Eddie Murphy.)

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    Post edited by Rogerbee on
  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,412
    edited April 2015

    Rogerbee said:
    Rob from another angle and I wasn't feeling the irises, so I swapped them for a pair of Anna's and dialed the size to the same as Bjorn's.

    CHEERS!

    PS (In case anyone is wondering if Rob's head is from a character, it isn't, I dialed it myself not long after I got M6. He reminds me a little of Eddie Murphy.)

    that is incredible.

    My biggest issue with canned eye reflections, is that they often don't match the lights around the face, and that lack of consistency ruins the illusion of real (giving it that toon feel). Worse off, the reflections may not match the visible scene at all, lol.

    Thanks for the info, and some day, I'll figure out what check boxes are for the eye reflection only, so a saved material preset dose NOT over wright a figures other eye attributes, to say nothing of the rest of the body and skin textures.

    First problem first. Why dose this "Daz Dragon LE" look so bad. The feet look good, the head not so much, and the body is just horrid.
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/798521/
    I tried all the mat options I had, and the Tutorial mat looked the best (used in that render).

    (EDIT)
    Mustakettu85, Me and "Spaghetti Land" just don't get along. I'd rather just do up the correct reflection settings in the "Daz Default" shader, on whatever surface it is supposed to be on.

    If you find me hogtied with shader patch cords somewhere around the forum, I had attempted to do something in Shader Mixer, lol.

    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029
    edited April 2015

    Rogerbee said:
    Rob and Bjorn now, same diffuse, same IOR. They look good to me. I remember Wowie saying that Bjorn's sclera looked a bit blue, well, I think that's the background colour reflected in them.

    Rob looks best, but still too white. The actual texture has a lot of redness in the sclera. But frankly, they all look way too different from the skin.

    I thtnk that's where the problem is. If you look at the color values for the sclera via an image viewer/editor, you'll notice eye textures differ a lot from each other. Just like skin, you need to correct those and try to get the same level of luminance in the render. Getting the correct luminance for each set was a really hard work for the eyes, particularly since all eye sets must also work with all skin sets.

    Sclera isn't and shouldn't be reflective That's should be done in either the eye reflection surface or the cornea. Same goes for the iris

    Here are ones I really like:
    JFK
    http://zhaomenglong.cgsociety.org/art/portrait-jfk-realistic-3d-1230432

    Nana
    http://www.danroarty.com/

    Javert
    http://www.cgtrader.com/gallery/project/the-javert

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    Post edited by wowie on
  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,412
    edited April 2015

    wowie said:
    Rogerbee said:
    Rob and Bjorn now, same diffuse, same IOR. They look good to me. I remember Wowie saying that Bjorn's sclera looked a bit blue, well, I think that's the background colour reflected in them.

    Rob looks best, but still too white. The actual texture has a lot of redness in the sclera. But frankly, they all look way too different from the skin.

    I thtnk that's where the problem is. If you look at the color values for the sclera via an image viewer/editor, you'll notice eye textures differ a lot from each other. Just like skin, you need to correct those and try to get the same level of luminance in the render. Getting the correct luminance for each set was a really hard work for the eyes, particularly since all eye sets must also work with all skin sets.

    Sclera isn't and shouldn't be reflective That's should be done in either the eye reflection surface or the cornea. Same goes for the iris

    Here are ones I really like:
    JFK
    http://zhaomenglong.cgsociety.org/art/portrait-jfk-realistic-3d-1230432

    Nana
    http://www.danroarty.com/

    Javert
    http://www.cgtrader.com/gallery/project/the-javertAs often as I have quoted him (JFK) in conversation, I like. The eyes do look good as well.

    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited December 1969

    zarcondeegrissom said:
    that is incredible.

    My biggest issue with canned eye reflections, is that they often don't match the lights around the face, and that lack of consistency ruins the illusion of real (giving it that toon feel). Worse off, the reflections may not match the visible scene at all, lol.

    Thanks for the info, and some day, I'll figure out what check boxes are for the eye reflection only, so a saved material preset dose NOT over wright a figures other eye attributes, to say nothing of the rest of the body and skin textures.

    First problem first. Why dose this "Daz Dragon LE" look so bad. The feet look good, the head not so much, and the body is just horrid.
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/798521/
    I tried all the mat options I had, and the Tutorial mat looked the best (used in that render).

    (EDIT)
    Mustakettu85, Me and "Spaghetti Land" just don't get along. I'd rather just do up the correct reflection settings in the "Daz Default" shader, on whatever surface it is supposed to be on.

    If you find me hogtied with shader patch cords somewhere around the forum, I had attempted to do something in Shader Mixer, lol.


    Thanks,

    I have no idea what's up with the dragon, I've never worked with them, even though I own some.

    CHEERS!

  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited December 1969

    wowie said:

    Rob looks best, but still too white. The actual texture has a lot of redness in the sclera. But frankly, they all look way too different from the skin.

    I thtnk that's where the problem is. If you look at the color values for the sclera via an image viewer/editor, you'll notice eye textures differ a lot from each other. Just like skin, you need to correct those and try to get the same level of luminance in the render. Getting the correct luminance for each set was a really hard work for the eyes, particularly since all eye sets must also work with all skin sets.

    Sclera isn't and shouldn't be reflective That's should be done in either the eye reflection surface or the cornea. Same goes for the iris

    Here are ones I really like:
    JFK
    http://zhaomenglong.cgsociety.org/art/portrait-jfk-realistic-3d-1230432

    Nana
    http://www.danroarty.com/

    Javert
    http://www.cgtrader.com/gallery/project/the-javert

    Thanks,

    Regarding Bjorn, what I actually meant was that the reflection of the background colour in the eye reflection was making his sclera look blue. Dialling Rob back shouldn't be a problem, I'll try darker for him.

    Oh yeah, Bjorn comes with a set of normal maps, BUT, you can't use the .tif's in Ubersurface2 as they come out weird, you have to save them as .psd's and it likes them then. Here's a render, but, I can't actually tell any difference! In the AoA shader you can dial their strength, but you can't in UberSurface2.

    CHEERS!

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  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited April 2015

    Dialled Rob back a bit. I also redid Anna as I forgot the desaturated diffuse maps, they work best with Mustakettu's settings. Her eye diffuse is now 100 100 100.

    CHEERS!

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    Post edited by Rogerbee on
  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933
    edited December 1969

    zarcondeegrissom said:

    Mustakettu85, Me and "Spaghetti Land" just don't get along. I'd rather just do up the correct reflection settings in the "Daz Default" shader, on whatever surface it is supposed to be on.


    Disclaimer: I have a huge headache now so I will not sound as politically correct as I usually do.

    To the Nine Corellian Hells with shader mixer, really! LOL I hope it becomes a useful tool for Iray users, but any serious 3Delight user should forget about it. Unless the RSL bricks get a major overhaul.

    Either way, if you just learn the basics of RSL - Renderman Shading Language - you will be able to write shaders in normal human-readable code without spaghetti.

    -------------

    If you look at the color values for the sclera via an image viewer/editor, you'll notice eye textures differ a lot from each other. Just like skin, you need to correct those and try to get the same level of luminance in the render.

    I have run into this, too.

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933
    edited April 2015

    Rogerbee said:
    Dialled Rob back a bit. I also redid Anna as I forgot the desaturated diffuse maps, they work best with Mustakettu's settings. Her eye diffuse is now 100 100 100.


    The skin and lighting look really sweet here, but there's still something weird about the eye reflection... Could it be that you have forgotten to enable Fresnel on it?

    ---------

    zarcondeegrissom said:

    Thanks for the info, and some day, I'll figure out what check boxes are for the eye reflection only, so a saved material preset dose NOT over wright a figures other eye attributes, to say nothing of the rest of the body and skin textures.


    It might be easier if you save it as a shader preset rather than a mat one. Then you'd need to select the eye surface before applying, but it would be transferable between figures.

    As for the SubDragon, are you using its free lo-res textures? That may be the issue.

    ---------

    Rogerbee said:

    Oh yeah, Bjorn comes with a set of normal maps, BUT, you can't use the .tif's in Ubersurface2 as they come out weird, you have to save them as .psd's and it likes them then. Here's a render, but, I can't actually tell any difference!

    I can't say for sure but it seems to me that normal maps tend to be superfluous if you already have bump and displacement, and all that on a Sub-D model. In gamedev, normal maps were preferred because one type of them can smooth low-poly contours, but I don't even remember if it's the same type we can use in DS.

    ---------


    Sounds curious... Do you have an example render?

    This is with IPR. Non IPR is the same. See the checkered pattern on the shoes?

    Yes I see now... I can't explain why it would be possible, though. I need to see if "3Delight" and "scripted 3Delight" are different in that regard.

    Post edited by Mustakettu85 on
  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,412
    edited April 2015

    Yes Kettu, the SubDragon (2 or LE?). Slaying the Dragon Dragon, Mat Attacking Dragon, are about as bad on the body. The "Sample" mat was over all the worst of the three options, and I went with the Attacking Dragon for that render. I was about to look to see if there was options, that did not involve me breaking the bank on getting the Dragon3 before my budget allowed, lol.

    Granted, 1024x1024 is not entirely great, however I've had better looking surfaces with far smaller mats.
    256x256 tiles on the floor http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/761164/
    My test chamber floor tiles are only 100x100 pixels in size. Tho this is more then just turning Smoothing Off in the surface tab.

    Now, looking at the SubDragon diffuse mat, it is far more lively then the render turned out. It has color and good contrast. The render, it's like all the life was sucked out of the thing, and all colors completely washed out.

    It may simply be that the Gloss/reflection settings were for a far dimmer scene then where I have the Dragon. (EDIT, Oh-yea, way to much velvet and specular, with no maps in some by default).

    SubDragonLE_DroppedSpecAmount_AndVelvetNotShown_001.png
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    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited April 2015

    Mustakettu85 said:
    Rogerbee said:
    Dialled Rob back a bit. I also redid Anna as I forgot the desaturated diffuse maps, they work best with Mustakettu's settings. Her eye diffuse is now 100 100 100.


    The skin and lighting look really sweet here, but there's still something weird about the eye reflection... Could it be that you have forgotten to enable Fresnel on it?

    ---------

    I don't think I enabled Fresnel on any of the reflective bits, what settings do you recommend!?

    ---------


    Oh yeah, Bjorn comes with a set of normal maps, BUT, you can't use the .tif's in Ubersurface2 as they come out weird, you have to save them as .psd's and it likes them then. Here's a render, but, I can't actually tell any difference!


    I can't say for sure but it seems to me that normal maps tend to be superfluous if you already have bump and displacement, and all that on a Sub-D model. In gamedev, normal maps were preferred because one type of them can smooth low-poly contours, but I don't even remember if it's the same type we can use in DS.

    Bjorn as standard comes with normal maps already in there and I think it's the same with Anna. They're an option on Gia. Still, they don't seem to make any difference anyway so I may as well take them out.

    I also spent an afternoon baking Dave's SSS maps to use with everyone else, only to find that the figures look better without them, LOL, you live and learn!

    CHEERS!

    Post edited by Rogerbee on
  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,412
    edited December 1969

    OK, looked at the Spec, Color, and Bump maps. Even tried a few different options like using the bump as a spec strength, lol. I think I at least figured out exactly what's going on. Looking at a cropped section of the original, the dark areas between the scales on the face, is far darker then on the neck. It's just enough discontinuity to ruin the visual effect of them being part of the same object/figure.

    Now, the specular gloss, on the top of the neck, and wings, is fine, tho when altering the map settings, I inadvertently eliminated that gloss. So I'm going back to fussing with the maps. Simple things like opening the spec map in IrfanView, and setting the contrast to 32 (or so), and saving that as an alt mat to play with.

    I think I made her upset, when I misspelled her name... Rafaga not Rafage

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  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,412
    edited December 1969

    There was allot of unfinished items I decided to work on as well, like some of the claws in the ground, the sliver of the outfit next to Rafaga's elbow making it look like a fracture in the mats, etc.

    As for the SubDragonLE (I think), I decided to revert back to the beginning, and set Velvet back to the defaults, along with the Specular values. Then I decided the Spec map, was just not working after looking at some of yesterday's results, so I made a new set of Spec maps for the Head, Body and Wings. I also tries to fix the lack of detail a bit with the wing and (Diffuse) body color maps.

    The Color maps, I simply opened them up in IrfanView, and ran the "Sharpen" thing. I had messed with contrasts on the map yesterday, and that just threw the colors off. The problem primarily being, regardless of the size of the maps, they simply lacked detail. A crude way to get around that, was to pas the maps threw a "Sharpen" process of any kind.

    The spec maps on the other hand, had a rather dark area on the dragons back, even with scales there. The Bump maps had less of that, so I decided to try to use them instead. The reason for Implementing such a map on Both Spec Strength channels, is that in between the scales, there just is not going to be a lot of reflected light down in the crevices, just as it already is on the head.

    Now the other adjustment. The Specular strengths was set to 15% everywhere, with no strength maps at all. So the crevices between the scales was glowing on the body, especially with the UE2 light coming from everywhere. There was a map in one spec color channel, that I ended up removing, as it combined with a strength map, ended up only making the dragons belly glow, and the sides and back looking rather dark everywhere.

    With the new Specular strength maps, the former setting of 15% was way to week, so I set them both at 100% plus the Strength map. I also raised the Specular color on the one channel from whatever it was up to (240r 222g 180b) as that was also a tad dark with the new strength map.

    Adding Detail to the bump. Well actually I left the Bump map and min/max alone. I did take the new Spec-map and drop it in Displacement, and dialed that in as well (Remember to turn Displacement ON, lol).

    Now for the Dragons Eyes, lol. I'll read up on that again, as the all out test render runs.

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  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited April 2015

    It's the same with mine, this is very much a stripped back version of the creature. It's texture sizes are way down on what they should be. The head is 512x512 and the rest is 1024x1024. The full version in the store has all the full textures and should render better. The LE's are throwaways and are best used for test or tutorial renders.

    I have the full version of Millenium Dragon 2 and it has all the right textures, check it out:

    CHEERS!

    EDIT:

    Ah, I see you're now using UberSurface on it, probably a smart move, I was still using the default shader when I tested the Subdragon. Let me know what your settings are and then I'll apply them to mind and also the big fella.

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    Post edited by Rogerbee on
  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited December 1969

    Ok, I tried everything you did and the eventual test render is below. I have a feeling this is as good as we're going to get.

    CHEERS!

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  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited April 2015

    Had another play, I set the bump to min -0.035 and max 0.025 and set displacement to min 0 max 0.4. Oh, the skin has a glossiness of 75% with Fresnel set to 91%, fall off 2 and sharpness 15%.

    Are we there yet!?

    CHEERS!

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    Post edited by Rogerbee on
  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited December 1969

    Here's the big fella with those settings.

    CHEERS!

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  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,412
    edited April 2015

    Looks good Rogerbee.

    I doubled the size of the Body (1024x1024 to 2048x2048) and Wing (512x512 to 1024x1024) mats, and tried the Contrast and Sharpen trick again. Yes throw away dragon, is kind of sad sounding for such a cute animal.

    I have the tutorial version, and the store is of NO help with the Add-on texture sets, as It claims I don't have a dragon??? So I decided it was not worth spending money on something that may not work... Thus I'm fussing with the mats that came with the Slay the Dragon tutorial, or was it that dragon tower tutorial, lol. Using the "MAT Attack Dragon" preset mats.

    In any case. Color mats contrast set to 16, and sharpened. ALL The Body and Wing mats got a second Sharpen. Bump, as outlined above, for both the bump and Displacement. Specular maps Brightened to 96, and contrasted to 96, and sharpened. (yes I reverted back to the Specular maps for the specular). Velvet strength is using the new Specular maps, to control where the Velvet is.

    I did not touch the; Horns, InnerMouth, Toungue, Claws, Teeth (yet), and Eyes (yet).

    So here is the original, and the What I'm happy with till I get the Dragon3.
    (EDIT added settings screen-caps.)
    (EDIT2, I'm backing off on the Displacement to -0.1 +0.1 min/max, to get rid of them black spots)

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    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited April 2015

    Just did what you did, and he-e-llo! Worked like a charm, get in!

    Write a full tutorial and post that, it'll be a winner!

    CHEERS!

    PS (Why bother with velvet? That is essentially for peach fuzz on human skin and dragons are reptiles. I never use velvet anywhere.)

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    Post edited by Rogerbee on
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