3Delight Surface and Lighting Thread

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  • dHandledHandle Posts: 617

    That's a fun scene, Kyoto!

    Question:  How would you go about making the helicopter blades look properly blurry?

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 40,656

    ...thanks.

    The model came with a rotor blur setting. The other way would be to do a motion blur on the blades but that could increase render time.

    I did a scene of a person riding a motorcycle with motion blur once using one of the Yosemite HDRIs.  Not very complex and only needed 5 frames, but it took over sixteen and a half hours to render as I was also using UE.

     

  • mahhenmahhen Posts: 73

    Is it anyway possible that someone could make 3delight surfaces settings picture like this iray one http://toyen-art.deviantart.com/art/Daz-Studio-Iray-Skin-Shader-Settings-Outdated-532976349   For any character g2, g3 or victoria7. Any of these are fine for me, i just need one that i can actually use.. Right now the factory settings for 3delight are completely unusable. All look sort of grey and dead. It might be also partly lighting or render settings problem.  i use free render settings scripts and gamma correction is 2.2 like it's recommendet in forums. And i use standard camera and it's headlamp for test renders.  Most of  iray versions looks beatiful or atleast usable on standar surfaces settings they come and even 3delight  versions look almost natural in viewpoint, but when i render they are dead looking. Dont know why. I usually use iray, but look at my hair addon makes it heavy and it crashes often and also some content is easier to use in 3delight . so i want to use 3delight. so this problem im having is brobably just lack of my skills and it might be something that is easyly  fixed  (hopefully), some adjusting?.  Or alternatively i need surfaces settings list (or picture of them) that i can use and some information that do i need to use for example something like uber surfase base. I tryed example in the page-1 and character looked better, mayby litle too clossy, but ok, i used genesis3 female, So if someone have fine tuned and adjusted settings that would be nice. Or information how to fix my grey and dead characters. For example when you load in your computer g2 or g3 3delight surfaces version and use just a standard camera and test render does that render look for every one gray and dead is it 3delight problem or it just me. Dont need anything perfect just something usable.
     

  • mahhenmahhen Posts: 73

    Is it anyway possible that someone could make 3delight surfaces settings picture like this iray one http://toyen-art.deviantart.com/art/Daz-Studio-Iray-Skin-Shader-Settings-Outdated-532976349   For any character g2, g3 or victoria7. Any of these are fine for me, i just need one that i can actually use.. Right now the factory settings for 3delight are completely unusable. All look sort of grey and dead. It might be also partly lighting or render settings problem.  i use free render settings scripts and gamma correction is 2.2 like it's recommendet in forums. And i use standard camera and it's headlamp for test renders.  Most of  iray versions looks beatiful or atleast usable on standar surfaces settings they come and even 3delight  versions look almost natural in viewpoint, but when i render they are dead looking. Dont know why. I usually use iray, but look at my hair addon makes it heavy and it crashes often and also some content is easier to use in 3delight . so i want to use 3delight. so this problem im having is brobably just lack of my skills and it might be something that is easyly  fixed  (hopefully), some adjusting?.  Or alternatively i need surfaces settings list (or picture of them) that i can use and some information that do i need to use for example something like uber surfase base. I tryed example in the page-1 and character looked better, mayby litle too clossy, but ok, i used genesis3 female, So if someone have fine tuned and adjusted settings that would be nice. Or information how to fix my grey and dead characters. For example when you load in your computer g2 or g3 3delight surfaces version and use just a standard camera and test render does that render look for every one gray and dead is it 3delight problem or it just me. Dont need anything perfect just something usable.
     

  • mahhenmahhen Posts: 73

    Ok, i played with surfaces setting and human surfase base and got something that look natural (diffuse color was major problem, noob problem i know, but something that is a problem for every noob) . But i'm still having problems with very white skin. For example something like macro skin (fingers look normal color, but chest/sholder area is too grey). i have tryed everything even lighting but when i render the skin has too mush grey in it. I cant do anything with diffuce, not if if i want to keep it white. So surfaces setting for very light color skin would be nice or some advice how do i reduce greynes. 

    well anyways i like the speed of 3delight, it make trial and error test renders a lot lot faster than iray. so i'll keep trying.

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,412
    edited December 2016

    From what I've seen around, using 'Linear workflow' (the name is somewhat deceptive after looking at all the steps involved, lol), are you undoing the sRGB gamma of ALL the maps before feeding them into Daz Studio? Many maps are in sRGB and need a Gamma offset of 0.454545... done to them before sending them to render (with GC on), and the colors in the color boxes as well in the surface setting tab (along with other stuff).

    Admittedly, It is way more headache then I'm willing to put up with along with other difficulties with the interface when stuff is in such off shades going into a scene (what you see in the view field is not what your going to get).

    One other thing I've noticed, is that many PAs do not use the same 'formula' for making maps, so the settings that work well on many figures from one PA may not look good at all on other PAs figures. And some PAs appear to use drastically different formulas for varying shades of skin tone (light vs darker skin tones), so a single mat settings that works on one figure may not work well on figures from the same PA.

    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • mahhenmahhen Posts: 73

    Thank you, i hadn't even noticed that there is gamma in surfaces also. I thought gamma was only a render settings thing, but this explains a lot. I have been having many dark or overexposed items in scene. Even some hdr images have been overexposed. Have to check them also. Thanks again, this makes my rendering a lot easier. smiley

  • Thank you, i hadn't even noticed that there is gamma in surfaces also. I thought gamma was only a render settings thing, but this explains a lot. I have been having many dark or overexposed items in scene. Even some hdr images have been overexposed. Have to check them also. Thanks again, this makes my rendering a lot easier. smiley

    Hi. I don't know how keen you are on reading, but I have a multi-page tutorial here that explains how I did skin with the UberSurface shaders. If you dislike reading, you can just flip through the pages till you come to images that have small print next to them. That small print gives you shader settings and important render settings.

    http://www.sharecg.com/v/76566/gallery/3/PDF-Tutorial/Subsurface-Scattering-in-3Delight-for-DS

  • mahhenmahhen Posts: 73

    Thanks Mustakettu85 i am definitely going to read that and 43 pages isnt too long. When you have been reading forums using google which feels like being in library and reading pages from here and there, its nice to have information in one plase. I have also put some tutorials in my wishlist in daz store, but when you have over 250 items on that list tutorial tend to stay there when you buy "must have items". Thanks againsmiley

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 40,656

    ...so what if you don't have Uberseurface/Ubersurface2?  I never got them when they originally came out as I was still working on a 32 bit duo core system and using anything "Uber" would usually result in a render crash.  By the time I got my 64 Bit system up and running, AoA released his SSS shader which was later incorporated into the Daz Programme.

  • uberSurface comes with DS.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 40,656

    ...back then (Daz 2.3 - 3.0 days) I recall it was a separate product.  Eventually it and HSS became integrated like the base AoA SSS shader was.

  • uberSurface has never been a separate product, HSS was.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 40,656

    ...even the original (Paid) release of 3.0?.

  • Thanks Mustakettu85 i am definitely going to read that and 43 pages isnt too long. When you have been reading forums using google which feels like being in library and reading pages from here and there, its nice to have information in one plase. I have also put some tutorials in my wishlist in daz store, but when you have over 250 items on that list tutorial tend to stay there when you buy "must have items". Thanks againsmiley

    You're most welcome =) I made this tutorial exactly because I believe in two things: a) information in one place is the easiest to work with (there is a reason handbooks have existed for decades); b) fundamental knowledge should be available to everyone.

  • kyoto kid said:

    ...so what if you don't have Uberseurface/Ubersurface2?  I never got them when they originally came out as I was still working on a 32 bit duo core system and using anything "Uber" would usually result in a render crash.  By the time I got my 64 Bit system up and running, AoA released his SSS shader which was later incorporated into the Daz Programme.

    So, as Richard explained, you do have UberSurface because you have DS4.

    The foundations - the theory on SSS scale, groups etc, and general techniques - are universal.

    Besides, you have the same "skin" presets in AoA SSS (the dropdown box) as UberSurface2. These presets come from real-world scatter values measured by Jensen et al for their scientific publication on the topic of SSS modelling.

    What AoA SSS does not have out of the box is Fresnel attenuation of specular.

    It also will give you longer render times out of the box because of how shader mixer does certain things. There is an easy fix, though. I have mentioned it in the lab thread and elsewhere. If I have enough time during the New Year break, I'll put up a small PDF for those who need detailed guidance.

    There are also two "modes" in AoA SSS: "pre-SSS" and "post-SSS". The "pre-SSS" mode is closest to what UberSurface1/2 use.

    Other than that, it's fairly similar.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 40,656
    edited December 2016

    ...didn't really get into using Daz 4.x until I built my 64 bit system. I could barely even render a single figure with a simple background in 4.0 on my old system without it crashing, so I continued working in 3.0/3.1 as well as even 2.3 at times.  As I mentioned on the old system I pretty much avoided anything with the "Uber" prefix as well as any of the Elite textures since they ate up too much of the limited memory I had available.

    Anything that involves actually going into the shader mixer I pretty much avoid as to my eyes it looks like the proverbial basket of yarn that the cat got into.  I find Carrara's shader system to be much more intuitive.

     

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,151

    Hi,

    Looking for some advice.  I'm so ensconced in using iRAY that I've forgotten how to achieve reflections in the eyes of human figures in 3DL.  I'm NOT working with DAZ figures so help in understanding what will give me the best reflective quality to areas like the Cornea, Sclera, Iris and Pupil would be most helpful in a more "every figure" sort of way. 

    Also, I'm trying to keep it simple so not using any of the advanced shader systems, mostly what ever the "Default" DAZ 3Delight Shader system provides.  I get all messed up when I try to use the SSS and Uber advanced.  Simple is what I'm after but something that looks pretty good, esp in mid-range or close up camera shots.

    If I need to fake it I have maps created for that as well but I'd prefer to get something out of reflections from lights in the scene if possible.

    Thanks so much!

    Richard

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933
    RAMWolff said:

    Hi,

    Looking for some advice.  I'm so ensconced in using iRAY that I've forgotten how to achieve reflections in the eyes of human figures in 3DL.  I'm NOT working with DAZ figures so help in understanding what will give me the best reflective quality to areas like the Cornea, Sclera, Iris and Pupil would be most helpful in a more "every figure" sort of way. 

    Also, I'm trying to keep it simple so not using any of the advanced shader systems, mostly what ever the "Default" DAZ 3Delight Shader system provides.  I get all messed up when I try to use the SSS and Uber advanced.  Simple is what I'm after but something that looks pretty good, esp in mid-range or close up camera shots.

    If I need to fake it I have maps created for that as well but I'd prefer to get something out of reflections from lights in the scene if possible.

    Thanks so much!

    Richard

    A few generic pointers you may find helpful.

    Pupils should always be fully matte and black in real-world humans because they are holes and humans have no "tapetum lucidum" like dogs, cats and other animals. The only time you need anything else is if you're trying to replicate the "red eye" effect from flash photography =)

    Traditionally Poser vendors used cornea transparency maps and/or the same maps in the ambient slot set up to white colour to achieve a reliable illusion of "catchlights"'. Not sure it works well with a refractive cornea, though.

    Theoretically you can use the DS default shader to get you raytraced reflection in the eyes (for cornea and sclera) with the right Fresnel attenuation - don't use reflection maps and set the refraction IoR to 1.33 (you don't have to enable the refraction). But then you will need something to reflect, like a skydome with an HDR map or at least a primitive plane behind the camera (tricky to set up right).

    The lights in DS are "delta" lights, they are processed by a different shadeop (function), not reflection. They need the specular slot. I remember using a glossiness about 85% and probably the "glossy plastic" shading model for the cornea with passable results. Might work for sclera, too. But it was aaaages ago.

    An old Pixar trick to emulate caustics (glints) on the iris is to use a concave iris model and add some specular to its surface. https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Blender_3D:_Noob_to_Pro/Creating_Pixar-looking_eyes_in_Blender

     

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,151

    Hi,

    Thanks for the tips.  Yea, I've tried all of that.  I'm still seeing a very flat looking eye for the most part until I introduce the fake maps, which works the trick but some folks are picky and will prefer the eyes to reflect their surroundings.  Quite frustrating.  I'm glad for iRAY and hope someday most of my clients will want just iRAY and I can drop 3DL.  Tired all the stress of trying to figure all this out for each rendering engine... my brain is not wired for all this stuff!  lol

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933
    RAMWolff said:

    Hi,

    Thanks for the tips.  Yea, I've tried all of that.  I'm still seeing a very flat looking eye for the most part until I introduce the fake maps, which works the trick but some folks are picky and will prefer the eyes to reflect their surroundings.  Quite frustrating.  I'm glad for iRAY and hope someday most of my clients will want just iRAY and I can drop 3DL.  Tired all the stress of trying to figure all this out for each rendering engine... my brain is not wired for all this stuff!  lol

    Well, that DS default shader is extremely limited, y'know. And the default light shaders that DS has aren't exactly the bee's knees either.

    I'm sorry you have those "picky" clients. If I were you, I'd just tell them that if they want to work with 3Delight, they need to actually learn to lookdev for it themselves or pay someone to develop proper 2017 shaders for them since the latter is out of your sphere of competence. You shouldn't feel bad about that last bit. Very few people can be generalists in the sense of handling shader authoring AND rigging/morphing.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,904

    Oh, question -- in expert folks' opinion, which skin shader base is 'best'?

    HSS, Uber, AoA SSS, ... other?

    'Best' being defined as looking good and easy to work with.

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933

    Oh, question -- in expert folks' opinion, which skin shader base is 'best'?

    HSS, Uber, AoA SSS, ... other?

    'Best' being defined as looking good and easy to work with.

    From the store: UberSurface2 because it gives you a very nice way to deal with SSS and proper Fresnel attenuation of specular.

    Free:

    http://www.sharecg.com/v/76970/gallery/21/DAZ-Studio/Subsurface-Skin-Shader - also has proper Fresnel attenuation of specular (I checked the spaghetti - the specular layers share the IoR found in the Specular2 slot) and a gazillion of useful options to finetune the final skintone. Because of all those options, may be a bit on the "difficult" side, but IMO it is way easier to get usable results from than AoA Subsurface.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,904

    I have us2... any tips on proper settings?

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933

    I have us2... any tips on proper settings?

    Sure, anything you may need is here: https://www.sharecg.com/v/76566/view/3/PDF-Tutorial/Subsurface-Scattering-in-3Delight-for-DS

    If you're after specific presets but not theory, then go to pp. 32 and 33. The skin materials I describe there are very translucent; if you want a more "rugged" look, you could play with enabling diffuse and adjusting the diffuse and SSS strengths.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,904

    As always, thank you!

    The other issue I often run into is transmap hair but I don't think there's much you can do about that. :)

    (and yes, I already know to change occlusion etc)

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933

    PS These materials were developed for an AO-based environment, without any bounce light, so they use pure white multipliers which is obviously not a good thing if there is indirect light. Just dial all white swatches down to like RGB224 if you're using any GI, doesn't matter exactly which (point-based, photon, you still need realistic albedo then).

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,904

    I avoid bounce in 3dl; if I want the extra realism I can do it much faster in Iray.

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933

    As always, thank you!

    The other issue I often run into is transmap hair but I don't think there's much you can do about that. :)

    (and yes, I already know to change occlusion etc)

    You're welcome!

    Nope, not much, true. LAMH is often faster to render than many complex transmapped models. Though you need to survive all the crashes related to actually styling it, of course =D

    I avoid bounce in 3dl; if I want the extra realism I can do it much faster in Iray.

    Okay; the point-based method is not that slow in vanilla DS, though.

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,151

    Thanks so much for the links.  I think I have that PDF somewhere but can't find it so redownloaded it.  :-)

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