3Delight Surface and Lighting Thread

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  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited April 2015

    Rogerbee said:
    Rogerbee said:
    This is my next little project, it's the Sanctum Arts Horde figure and it deserves to be given the full UberSurface2 treatment. This will be fun!

    CHEERS!

    PS (The render shows it as it loads.)

    Yep, looks like Poser only mats forced down Studio's throat, lol. I've had my share of ripping out my hair over similar situations, only to discover that the rigging also needed to be completely redone from scratch.

    It looks like that figure is missing allot of strength control mats.

    Actually, the figure loads and performs better in DS than it did in Poser, all the maps are there, they just need a decent shader. All Sanctum Arts stuff looks better. Their Grim armour looked great, in Poser the helmet lenses were just transparent holes, in DS there were proper lit lenses. The beard hair on the Horde just sat there and looked silly in Poser, whereas there are control morphs for it in DS. It is odd then that they were distributed by Poser vendors and not here in Daz. Whatever, we'll never know now as Sanctum Arts are long gone, which is a crying shame, as I would love to have seen Marine armour from them.

    CHEERS! Breakfast didn't sit well with me, so I had to lay down for a bit, feeling better now.

    A bit of glossiness, as is on the nose, is good. The body needs that velvet (peach-fuzz efect) with gloss turned off almost completely. I don't think they would look correct if both were everywhere.

    Also, Atticus Bones fur pelt would look awesome on that... If it could be turned into a proper mat for the fella.
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/690946/
    Hmmm.

    I'll get to the MAT later, however, I discovered that I could play with the figure more. He is now high resolution, sub divided and, get this, weight mapped! He's now saved as a .DUF with all morphs intact and the hair is fitted and saved as .DUFs too. In effect he is now a full and proper modern Daz figure! Now I need to reload and save all the poses and we're laughing! After that I'll get to the MAT. If only Sanctum Art would agree to the figure being re-released in this format......

    CHEERS!

    EDIT:

    If only there was a way to get the M4 UV onto him, I could use RawArt's Manwolf texture on him........

    Post edited by Rogerbee on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    Rogerbee said:
    EDIT:

    If only there was a way to get the M4 UV onto him, I could use RawArt's Manwolf texture on him........

    There's a thread on building clones...it's a pretty long one and I don't remember if there is information in it on doing UV transfers or not. Of course if you are pretty decent with Photoshop you could do the manual cut and paste method.

  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029
    edited April 2015


    It won't take them long to get to the 99th one.

    Neat suggestion, although I didn't like that movie that much ;) Kate Winslet's hair had some nifty colours in it, of course.

    Hell, I loved that movie. But for most people, the 3delight Laboratory, Tips and Tricks probably be more informative.

    Testing lights on a very different scene.

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  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,412
    edited April 2015

    wowie said:

    It won't take them long to get to the 99th one.

    Neat suggestion, although I didn't like that movie that much ;) Kate Winslet's hair had some nifty colors in it, of course.

    Hell, I loved that movie. But for most people, the 3delight Laboratory, Tips and Tricks probably be more informative.

    Testing lights on a very different scene.Nice!

    I had noticed when I went to do a final render of that Dragon, I forgot to click the On/Off thing for the reflection on the eyes, lol. Final version is at DA, and a jpg from the render cache is over at the EJ Rafaga thread.
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/801234/
    I left the DazDefault shader on the teeth and claws, and dialed in a bit of reflection, and removed the map in the Specular color and killed all bump and displacement, to get a cleaner reflection.

    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    Other than being a little too 'white', it's looking pretty good. I like the middle one the best as it seems to have more 'realistic' shadows, There doesn't seem to be a very stong/bright sun (background is somewhat hazy (DOF?)), so that implies to me a bit of overcast...hence softer shadows.

    I'm guessing it's not a full GI setup, so no bounce...that's probably what's missing the slight greenish tint from the grass and leaves.

  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited December 1969

    wowie said:

    It won't take them long to get to the 99th one.

    Neat suggestion, although I didn't like that movie that much ;) Kate Winslet's hair had some nifty colours in it, of course.

    Hell, I loved that movie. But for most people, the 3delight Laboratory, Tips and Tricks probably be more informative.

    Testing lights on a very different scene.

    They look fantastic!

    CHEERS!

  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited December 1969

    mjc1016 said:
    Rogerbee said:
    EDIT:

    If only there was a way to get the M4 UV onto him, I could use RawArt's Manwolf texture on him........

    There's a thread on building clones...it's a pretty long one and I don't remember if there is information in it on doing UV transfers or not. Of course if you are pretty decent with Photoshop you could do the manual cut and paste method.

    Eeeee, that sounds complicated!

    CHEERS!

  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited April 2015

    Ok, I've been working away on a MAT for my Horde and below is what I've done so far. The shader is US2 with Kettu's settings. The gloss is turned off on the body to give the skin a more dog-like look and I did use some velvet on the nose and lips to get that wet look. I haven't done the inside of the mouth and teeth yet, has anyone got any suggestions for settings!?

    CHEERS!

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    Post edited by Rogerbee on
  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029
    edited December 1969

    mjc1016 said:
    Other than being a little too 'white', it's looking pretty good. I like the middle one the best as it seems to have more 'realistic' shadows, There doesn't seem to be a very stong/bright sun (background is somewhat hazy (DOF?)), so that implies to me a bit of overcast...hence softer shadows.

    I'm guessing it's not a full GI setup, so no bounce...that's probably what's missing the slight greenish tint from the grass and leaves.

    Thanks.

    Middle one is supposed to be more hazy/cloud sky and the distant light is less powerful with far less sharp shadows. The lower one is the full outdoor setup. The first one is somewhere in between.

    The background is KHPark of course. :) And you can do full GI with it, I just chose not to, due to the grass not having any shading override controls.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    wowie said:
    The background is KHPark of course. :) And you can do full GI with it, I just chose not to, due to the grass not having any shading override controls.

    And since you probably don't wan to wait until NEXT Saturday for it finish...probably a good idea.

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933
    edited December 1969

    Rogerbee said:

    It won't, the tone is just right, people take in what you say and learn and that is what is needed for any tutorial.

    Here's to hoping!

    And...
    “Now,” said Benji mouse, “to business.”

    Ford and Zaphod clinked their glasses together.
    “To business!” they said.

    “I beg your pardon?” said Benji.

    Ford looked round.
    “Sorry, I thought you were proposing a toast,” he said.
    --Douglas Adams, H2G2

    Rogerbee said:
    Ok, I've been working away on a MAT for my Horde and below is what I've done so far. The shader is US2 with Kettu's settings. The gloss is turned off on the body to give the skin a more dog-like look and I did use some velvet on the nose and lips to get that wet look. I haven't done the inside of the mouth and teeth yet, has anyone got any suggestions for settings!?

    Love this. Scary leathery creature! What would it look like with more "infernal" colour to the glow in its eyes?

    As for mouth, I'd say the Ketchup SSS setting could work, and adding around 40% sharpness to specular to make it more "slick".

    -------

    Hell, I loved that movie. But for most people, the 3delight Laboratory, Tips and Tricks probably be more informative.

    Testing lights on a very different scene.

    Lovely scene! Is that AoA's grass? I haven't yet done any extensive testing, but it (being displacement-only, no transmaps) seemed to be okay with GI speed-wise.

    -------

    Here's a test of that old Poser figure James. I absolutely love the default face shape and the expression morphs; for me, they're the easiest to use. But the body rigging is not so good and geometry wasn't obviously built with 3Delight's raytraced SSS in mind (or any SSS, for that matter). I also have no idea what's wrong with his eyes, seems like the iris is indented around the perimeter??

    I need to check out the JamesG2 version and see if it got better without breaking the good points...


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  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933
    edited December 1969

    So I made a new thread for us to migrate to (in case you fill up this one while I'm away):

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/55128/

    Have a yet another caustics teaser to go with that =)

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  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,412
    edited April 2015

    Thanks Kettu, the Caustics look good there. I was off trying to figure out why Photometric lights were not behaving in 3delight, and working fine in Iray, lol.
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/55127/
    That's just me I guess, it ended up in the wrong forum, lol. I think? or is that not a 'Commons' like topic? All fixed, thanks.

    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933
    edited December 1969

    Thanks Kettu, the Caustics look good there. I was off trying to figure out why Photometric lights were not behaving in 3delight, and working fine in Iray, lol.
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/55127/
    That's just me I guess, it ended up in the wrong forum, lol. I think? or is that not a 'Commons' like topic? All fixed, thanks.

    Thanks =) I'm trying to come up with more interesting scenes for caustics than just vases and rings... Any ideas?

    The Commons is like "anything goes" LOL And where everything drowns...

    I would say the most transferable light rig would be a "physical" one: a mesh light. There are 3Delight area light shaders for DS, and Iray can use "emissive" materials.

    You can't make the mesh light invisible in Iray, it seems, though. Not with the "cutout opacity" control, at least.

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,412
    edited April 2015

    Thanks Kettu, the Caustics look good there. I was off trying to figure out why Photometric lights were not behaving in 3delight, and working fine in Iray, lol.
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/55127/
    That's just me I guess, it ended up in the wrong forum, lol. I think? or is that not a 'Commons' like topic? All fixed, thanks.

    Thanks =) I'm trying to come up with more interesting scenes for caustics than just vases and rings... Any ideas?

    The Commons is like "anything goes" LOL And where everything drowns...

    I would say the most transferable light rig would be a "physical" one: a mesh light. There are 3Delight area light shaders for DS, and Iray can use "emissive" materials.

    You can't make the mesh light invisible in Iray, it seems, though. Not with the "cutout opacity" control, at least.

    The uber lights don't work in Iray, and the Iray Emissive lights don't work in 3delight, thus not exactly what I was hoping to achieve. Tho I think I just figured out a cruel cheat, lol. Photometric Iray Massive Soft-box fill-in lights. Testing render now.
    (Yep)
    Just have to figure more out, lol.

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  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    Thanks Kettu, the Caustics look good there. I was off trying to figure out why Photometric lights were not behaving in 3delight, and working fine in Iray, lol.
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/55127/
    That's just me I guess, it ended up in the wrong forum, lol. I think? or is that not a 'Commons' like topic? All fixed, thanks.

    Thanks =) I'm trying to come up with more interesting scenes for caustics than just vases and rings... Any ideas?

    The Commons is like "anything goes" LOL And where everything drowns...

    I would say the most transferable light rig would be a "physical" one: a mesh light. There are 3Delight area light shaders for DS, and Iray can use "emissive" materials.

    You can't make the mesh light invisible in Iray, it seems, though. Not with the "cutout opacity" control, at least.

    Not only that you can have one light usable in 3 renderers (and two exporters)...3DL, with a shader, Luxrender (both Luxus and Reality) and Iray. For Luxrender and Iray you can even attach the same IES file to it, so it would basically be the same light in both.

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,412
    edited April 2015

    mjc1016 said:
    Thanks Kettu, the Caustics look good there. I was off trying to figure out why Photometric lights were not behaving in 3delight, and working fine in Iray, lol.
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/55127/
    That's just me I guess, it ended up in the wrong forum, lol. I think? or is that not a 'Commons' like topic? All fixed, thanks.

    Thanks =) I'm trying to come up with more interesting scenes for caustics than just vases and rings... Any ideas?

    The Commons is like "anything goes" LOL And where everything drowns...

    I would say the most transferable light rig would be a "physical" one: a mesh light. There are 3Delight area light shaders for DS, and Iray can use "emissive" materials.

    You can't make the mesh light invisible in Iray, it seems, though. Not with the "cutout opacity" control, at least.

    Not only that you can have one light usable in 3 renderers (and two exporters)...3DL, with a shader, Luxrender (both Luxus and Reality) and Iray. For Luxrender and Iray you can even attach the same IES file to it, so it would basically be the same light in both.I like the sound of that, especially if all I need to do as a user, is select the render engine, lol.

    For now, it's just my test chamber vs Iray and 3delight. (Yes, that is the Photometric Spotlights filling in for the large Uber panels, that otherwise would not function in Iray) Added a 3Delight run of the same exact lights and everything, except the mirror ball.

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  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029
    edited December 1969


    Lovely scene! Is that AoA's grass? I haven't yet done any extensive testing, but it (being displacement-only, no transmaps) seemed to be okay with GI speed-wise.

    Yup. Twiddle with it a bit so it has more variations. Haven't tried using bounceGI or indirect light yet, but even with UE2's AO mode, it can be pretty slow if you have a lot of them viewable. So theoretically speaking, it should be slower with UE2 indirect light or bounceG (even with your script).

    It does tend to be faster if you don't have a lot of variations, but then the grass will look more like a uniform rug.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    wowie said:

    Lovely scene! Is that AoA's grass? I haven't yet done any extensive testing, but it (being displacement-only, no transmaps) seemed to be okay with GI speed-wise.

    Yup. Twiddle with it a bit so it has more variations. Haven't tried using bounceGI or indirect light yet, but even with UE2's AO mode, it can be pretty slow if you have a lot of them viewable. So theoretically speaking, it should be slower with UE2 indirect light or bounceG (even with your script).

    It does tend to be faster if you don't have a lot of variations, but then the grass will look more like a uniform rug.

    I think the best/quickest grass I've seen was something Alessandro did as a demo for LAMH. But I'm not sure something that's designed primarily for small scale things like a head, is going to be the best way to do hair...and if you want variation, you'll have to stack a couple slightly differing layers, because it would be too difficult to make enough variation with what are basically hair grooming tools.

    And without a native particle/curve interface there aren't going to be any reasonable (time to render) grass solutions in DS...especially when adding full GI.

  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029
    edited December 1969

    mjc1016 said:

    I think the best/quickest grass I've seen was something Alessandro did as a demo for LAMH. But I'm not sure something that's designed primarily for small scale things like a head, is going to be the best way to do hair...and if you want variation, you'll have to stack a couple slightly differing layers, because it would be too difficult to make enough variation with what are basically hair grooming tools.

    And without a native particle/curve interface there aren't going to be any reasonable (time to render) grass solutions in DS...especially when adding full GI.

    One thing at a time. If I had to chose, I'd rather have a good and fast GI implementation rather than grass.

    Of course, I'm not saying a good grass/fur/hair generator is needed. I'd love to have something like the Ivy Generator or Greeble blocks with instancing support. I saw a demo of a tool in SoftImage that lets you actually build vines just by painting on the scene. With those things, you can pretty much use procedural geometry for everything. Plus they can actually respond to environment variables (wind, gravity etc). There's also tools like SpeedTree of course, which have been available for real time purposes for quite a while.

    The grass shader is rather quirky for my taste. For custom variations, you either use masks or as you said, stack one prop over the other, with each having their own settings. Definitely no match for the tools above, but for just adding a little omph to your DS renders, they're good enough.

  • RogerbeeRogerbee Posts: 4,460
    edited April 2015


    Rogerbee said:
    Ok, I've been working away on a MAT for my Horde and below is what I've done so far. The shader is US2 with Kettu's settings. The gloss is turned off on the body to give the skin a more dog-like look and I did use some velvet on the nose and lips to get that wet look. I haven't done the inside of the mouth and teeth yet, has anyone got any suggestions for settings!?

    Love this. Scary leathery creature! What would it look like with more "infernal" colour to the glow in its eyes?

    As for mouth, I'd say the Ketchup SSS setting could work, and adding around 40% sharpness to specular to make it more "slick".

    -------

    Thanks. I'll give that a try. I did notice one slight problem in that you get glare on the neck just below the ears and behind the jaw. This is because the face texture zone encompasses that part where it would be a part of the torso on G2. Not much I can do about that. I'll leave the fur as it is as experiments with UberSurface didn't yield good results.

    CHEERS!

    PS (See you in the new thread!)

    Post edited by Rogerbee on
  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933
    edited December 1969

    The uber lights don't work in Iray, and the Iray Emissive lights don't work in 3delight, thus not exactly what I was hoping to achieve.

    No, look: you load identical geometry for your mesh lights. Say, they are planes. You make two (or three, as Mjc suggests) of them, all occupying the same space, same coordinates, rotations etc. Then you load an UberArea on one, an Iray emissive on another, and a Lux emissive on the third. Give them descriptive names via "Object - Scene Identification" menu (to easily see which one is for what renderer).

    Save this out as a scene subset for later access.

    Then depending on what you want to render in, you just set the non-relevant meshes to "invisible" in the Scene tab or Parameters tab. One-click solution.

    One day I'll post a comparison scene in the new thread. I just can´t be bothered to do anything with Iray right now (because I want its "material mixer" to work first... and I also need some good documentation to read, like something where the physical meaning of Iray's "translucency" is explained).

    I guess that starting with 4.8 it should also be possible to dynamically call one shader or the other via scripting (depending on the active renderer), but I'd rather wait till there are script samples up for something like this.

    --------


    Of course, I'm not saying a good grass/fur/hair generator is needed. I'd love to have something like the Ivy Generator or Greeble blocks with instancing support. I saw a demo of a tool in SoftImage that lets you actually build vines just by painting on the scene. With those things, you can pretty much use procedural geometry for everything. Plus they can actually respond to environment variables (wind, gravity etc). There's also tools like SpeedTree of course, which have been available for real time purposes for quite a while.

    LAMH can do instancing, according to its docs. So if you have grass props, you could roll a few distributions for each separately and combine them. I haven't tried it yet, though.

    I wonder if it's possible to get T.Luft's free and open-source Ivy Generator ( http://graphics.uni-konstanz.de/~luft/ivy_generator/ ) and package it as a DS plugin.

    See y'all in the new thread!

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    I guess that starting with 4.8 it should also be possible to dynamically call one shader or the other via scripting (depending on the active renderer), but I'd rather wait till there are script samples up for something like this.

    --------

    Yeah, I can't wait, either...but right now, you can make ones for Luxrender, at least for Luxus, and 3DL that work, but it requires using Eluxur (the ShaderMixer plugin for Luxus). But until 4.8 is 'official' a tri-renderer (or more) would have to be hand crafted, at least on the scripting and I'm not good enough at scripting to pull it off, although with Kettu's help I am getting better at it.

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,412
    edited April 2015

    Kettu, sounds good if your just clicking one eyeball in the scene tab. If it's three area lights, and three spot lights being turned off, and six others being turned on, when switching between render engines, it dos become a bit of a drag. Especially when there parented to other things like a tree.

    It's just so much easier to mess with lights that just work in both, so you only need to select the render engine, rather then thumbing threw a tree of lights.

    I did have some success, tho Studio is still in beta, and it's taking advantage of a few issues with how Iray and 3delight treat lights in the current beta.
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/802074/

    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933
    edited December 1969

    Kettu, sounds good if your just clicking one eyeball in the scene tab. If it's three area lights, and three spot lights being turned off, and six others being turned on, when switching between render engines, it dos become a bit of a drag.

    Nope, doesn't have to be.

    You use a null to parent all your stuff to (then it's the master null that gets a meaningful name), and then you run this script on the null:

    https://sites.google.com/site/mcasualsdazscripts4/mcjselectallmychildren

    And then, you go to the Parameters tab and flip the "Visible" switch for all of them.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 97,513
    edited December 1969

    Kettu, sounds good if your just clicking one eyeball in the scene tab. If it's three area lights, and three spot lights being turned off, and six others being turned on, when switching between render engines, it dos become a bit of a drag.

    Nope, doesn't have to be.

    You use a null to parent all your stuff to (then it's the master null that gets a meaningful name), and then you run this script on the null:

    https://sites.google.com/site/mcasualsdazscripts4/mcjselectallmychildren

    And then, you go to the Parameters tab and flip the "Visible" switch for all of them.

    Or select the lights, Create>New Group and just use the eyeball on the group.

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,933
    edited December 1969


    Or select the lights, Create>New Group and just use the eyeball on the group.

    Thank you Richard! It's awesome to know that there is a layer-like functionality in DS these days!

  • dHandledHandle Posts: 617
    edited June 2016

    Rendered the same scene twice ; one with UE2 and the other with AoA's Ambient light.  Had a 3 point light rig set up, and left the settings on it the same.

    The interesting thing to me is the difference in skin tone, which I didn't adjust at all.

    Not sure which one I like better.

    Opinions?

     

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  • MarshianMarshian Posts: 1,460

    I like the second one better but the skin does look a little tiny bit gray/lifeless around the neck- maybe turn your main light source up a little?

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 40,656
    edited June 2016

    ...yeah am considering looking back to 3DL again.  Do not have the funds for a powerful enough GPU to make Iray really efficient.  Furthermore I miss being able to use a lot of "in render" effects.

    I still really like the AoA lights, even though flagging SSS surfaces is now broken.

    Here is the 3DL version of a scene I also rendered in Iray.  In the 4.8 Beta it took all of 14 minutes to render at 1,600 x 1,200. In Iray it took over 2.5 hours and all of the textures looked flat even though I increased the bump and displacement. This used the AoA ambient light one AoA distant lights and one wide beam low intensity AoA spotlight below the ground plane to simulate GI bounce on the shelter.and girls.

     

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