You've been heard. Response re: 4.9 and Encryption
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The problem is DRM only works for pirates who are motivated enough to buy product if it becomes a little harder to get it free, but aren't motivated enough to look harder for it.
What happened to the dozens of posts and threads that were merged into this one... ? I can't find any of them...
EDITED... Never mind I missed the answer.
The other issue is that even if you can not get the encrypted item for free, the nature of this business is that there are several other very similar items that can be pirated for free. Can you see a user of pirated content spending real money to get a slightly different looking piece of skimpwear rather than just use one of the many others they can get for free. Same thing applies to most characters, and quite a lot of props. The item would have to be quite unique to make the reluctant purchaser open his wallet.
Good point. Take that trenchcoat... it's very nice and a good style, but there are a few similar to it, and... I might be wrong, but I think Wilmap has one similar to it for FREE, even. Legitimately free, that is.
Edit: Yeah, this one:
https://www.wilmapsdigitalcreations.co.uk/view_product.php?id=79
(Mind you, I would guess that the Daz one has more morph options and movement and so on... but, well, when people face 'costs money and encrypted' vs. 'free and not encrypted'...)
Here's an interesting article about methods that reduce piracy of digital content.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151007/14402732471/right-way-to-stop-piracy.shtml
the title of this thread is misleading, by the way. i didn't need to read this. i'd rather voice my opinion with my wallet, bean counters can scratch their heads why i'm noy buying
topic is more like
'Your DRM concerns here: '
.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that you don't need to buy every Victoria clone and her special bikini?
But yes, totally agree. Fun purchases have become "oh I could dial that in myself with a bit of work." It's not even an avoiding DRM thing - it's more do I want an encrypted file that also requires me to use the new Connect thing which requires 4.9 which requires breaking most of the character shaders since very few updated ones are available?
Every time I get email notifications for this thread I keep reading different things. "You've been heard" keeps becoming "you've been hired!" and "you've been had!" since I'm more glancing at than rather reading the title.
This article summarises everything so well. The top rated comment thing at the bottom especially.
i think you've nailed it "Fun"
fun, where's the fun going? this is a hobby, needs "the fun"
Only Iray shaders which used certain features of the Uber iray Shader are affected by the change - at least some of which have been updated, others may well be updated though it is of course too soon to count on that.
This sums up my feeling on piracy vs DRM encryption.....
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush
Meaning
It's better to have a lesser but certain advantage than the possibility of a greater one that may come to nothing.
Origin
This proverb refers back to mediaeval falconry where a bird in the hand (the falcon) was a valuable asset and certainly worth more than two in the bush (the prey).
I am a DAZ falcon who has spent a lot of money here. The DAZ prey are those pirates and new users they seek is how I feel.
This sums up my feelings on locked down software and proprietary hardware platforms in the consumer segment.....
Mirrors on the ceiling
Pink champagne on ice
And she said
We are all just prisoners here
Of our own device
And in the master's chambers
They gathered for the feast
They stab it with their steely knives
But they just can't kill the beast
Last thing I remember
I was running for the door
I had to find the passage back to the place I was before
Relax said the night man
We are programed to receive
You can check out any time you like
But you can never leave
The Eagles "Hotel California" rest in peace Glenn Frey
Arguably this is an almost argument for connect (to some extent ignoring the whole drm bruhaha here). I think part of the rationale for connect itself was 'ease of use, especially for new users who may not be savvy to the ins and outs of how everything works'. How well that works depends on how easy everyone finds connect, but Connect is certainly one step closer to just click and install, you don't even have to leave the program.
And its not like netflix and spotify don't encrypt their files either, I mean I assume you can't just find the temp video/music file and save it for all eternity.
I've been reading about All Things Encrypted on these forums with great interest, given my propensity to lurk, and not actively post. I'm happy to say that my upgrade to 4.9 was painless, and that everything worked fine for me. For today, DIM still works, 3Delight is still supported, so all is well with the world.
For now. DIM is 98% of the reason I shop here versus other content stores. Not having to manually unzip and install content files means that Daz wins my business 9.8 times out of 10.
While I loathe DRM as much as the next guy (my id on steam is ihateintrusivedrm if you're a pc gamer) I've come to grudgingly accept it's inevitability in my digital life. If I want access to some of the top shelf programs from the mega-corporations, I have to deal with it. (Adobe and Steam being two prominent examples.) I'm aware that in some cases there are alternatives, such as the GIMP, but in my own experience I simply prefer Photoshop. Similarly, some PC games can only be played via Steam. That said, I support GOG whenever I can. But I digress.
I'm not eager to embrace the transition from content ownership to content renting, but there are a couple of scenarios where I could see it working.
For $x a month subscription fee, I get access to all the content in the entire store, encrypted. I am ashamed to admit how much I've spent here over the years, and x per month is almost certainly going to be cheaper for me, in all but the longest time horizons. (Think Netflix, or even Adobe.) So I could possibly work with that. The other scenario that could work: encrypted content is sold at a signifigant reduction. I simply can't place value on items that I'm renting (even for a ridiculously long time-horizon). Simply put, with DRM in place someone else owns the content, not me. I can be locked out at any time, what I do with that content can be data mined at any time, and at someone else's whim, I have to ask some remote server's permission to use that content. All of which means - it ain't mine. I certainly don't believe that any of that will happen -- I get nothing but a good vibe from the good folks here at Daz. But that doesn't change the fact the DRM-content is rented, not owned.
I definitely prefer owning my content, but we'll see how things go.
I prefer buying to renting, in a scheme like Daz/CGI, because it provides more incentive to make new cool stuff.
With something like Photoshop, there's mostly just the one product, and an incentive to spiff it up but not a pressing need to make new/better stuff.
Just one of those things -- not all models work the same with all venues. Like, you can only compare DRM in different spaces so much before the vagaries of how a different business works comes into play. Netflix has a bunch of key differences -- for one thing, it's purely a consumer/passive product. Netflix is also far downstream from content creation (although that's starting to change a bit).
Yes, and I know how to manually fix them. But why would I deliberately put myself in a position where I have fix each thing I bought? At some point I'm sure the odds will tip in favour of it being easier to upgrade than not, but that sure isn't right now when I only see a few figures have been updated (despite being told that most of them have been done... they aren't available on DIM. Are there more on Connect?)
Will, the point I was mostly trying to make is that I already deal with some form of DRM out on the interwebs, whether I like it or not. So I can't say that I will *never* support Daz going encrypted only. There are situations where I could. I'm not eager to, and I don't want to, but I'm not ready to pull the trigger and say "I'm done with Daz." That day might come, but I want to see how things play out.
When I mentioned Netflix, I was thinking: imagine the cost of owning every single movie or tv show that they have to offer, vs. paying a flat monthly fee to watch as much as you want. Similarly, imagine how much it would cost you to buy every piece of content in the Daz store, versus freely being able to use as much of it as you want, for a flat monthly fee. That's the way I was comparing them. The Adobe comparison probably is a little bit weaker but, you can opt to rent the entire CC suite or just Photoshop, based on your needs, and when you don't need it, you don't have to rent it anymore.
That *could* work here...not the way I'd want it to go, but it could work.
As long as it doesn't change things, the best I can see happening is that DAZ will stop marketing them as Encrypted, since Connect works just as well with unencrypted content; as far as I know, the only differences between something distributed via DAZ Connect and DIM are how the items are layed out in folders and the accompanying database layouts for each.
[Just imagine the appropriate quotes from the last few posts are here; things keep breaking.]
I agree that it'd be a super simple idea to have click and install functionality (ie Connect) - except that doesn't really work unless all of your content is coming from one place, and never needs to be edited etc. I could live with Connect (thanks to manual categories and being able to remove the Smart Content tab) but the idea of downloading everything again to move it there isn't appealing. And why add a whole new system if we're not all going to be using it eventually? Manual download and DIM do essentially the same thing, but Connect is completely separate. It makes no sense to keep the old ones running for any longer than you have to.
I use Steam too, but I don't touch the files (because there's not much reason to with a game) and I don't buy AAA games. I do buy lots of indie and otherwise on sale games for low prices (less than an item at Daz!) and I accept the risk of it all disappearing, slim as it is. But I wouldn't feel good putting real investment into it. I also pay for Adobe, but I get a good deal and it means for the first time I can access Photoshop without paying thousands in advance, which I could never do.
A couple of games come to mind with the subscription thing: In the Western world, League of Legends is free to play, but you need to earn or pay for characters (other than a free rotation) and must pay money for skins (texture packs~) In the Eastern countries, the game is free to play with all champions and skins unlocked for everyone, since most people play it via net cafes and a different sort of deal was worked out. Similarly in the West you buy Diablo 3 as an upfront cost and then that's it, whereas the new China launch has the game free but now provides in-app purchases in that region only if you want more features in it.
Going on from that (and other subscription systems) a subscription system really would only make sense if the store were free, or at least all of it at at least PC+ prices (encrypted, available as long as you have your subscription going.) I know there'd be a lot of customers that wouldn't like that, though I'd be super curious to see how the normal unencrypted purchase system vs encrypted rent everything free or cheap went (not including old customers who have most of what they want already.)
But paying the same price for extended rent of encrypted products (as said above, all DRM is rental, no matter how long the term) ? That are only slight variations on everything else on the market and in our libraries already? That's a tough sell for me. I'm sure a lot of people will pick it up for various reasons, but it just doesn't feel worth it.
If DAZ content was rented on a monthly basis and the customer did not retain the rights to the files after a lapse in subscription the Netflix analogy would make sense.
Daz also probably doesnt have nearly the userbase size for the Netflix/Spotify method of a subscription getting you everything I mean it could potentially sort of work with PC or DO's, and honestly a flat rate per month for either of those might not actually be the most hideous thing, but the infastructure for such a thing would really not work. Either the objects are actually cloudy and somehow not saved on your computer so no editing anything, or the files are saved but somehow can be removed once your not paing the subscription (impossible and super big brother). For the PA stuff, I can't even begin to guess how that would work.
But I mean thats good news if you're one of the folks who hate subcription based stuff, in the case of the Daz store, it would really never work.
I'm really not one to talk about the merits of netflix or spotify though, I don't have either. I still buy CDs and copy them to my computer in lossless formats. We have a really nice cd player and speakers too, although, thankfully, I haven't gone full audiophile yet.
@Lx I think at some point Daz mentioned somewhere that the userbase has a relatively high turnover rate, So there will be plenty who dont have a full organized runtime. I think the idea is that people whove been around know enough to make things work, so set up somthing that coddles people who don't.
I'm glad that they're keeping the old systems around; I use the content library primarily and after someone pointed out that I could essentially drag the new connect installed stuff into the content library and continue on as I always have, I was much happier about it.
Since a subscruption/rental service isn't on the table, and seems unlikely to be on the table, that's a purely academic discussion.
Just the question this time.
"IF after a reasonable time, encryption is found to not increase sales or reduce piracy, will DAZ remove it?"
It is a hypothetical question, and as such I doubt you will get an offical answer for it. However, if they did see sales dropping as a result of this, I suspect they would simply stop selling the content in encrypted format, there would be little to be gained by removing the functionality around it now that it is already in place.
OK Disclaimer...I know nothing or at least very little about encryption.
so please answer in a non tech way
If I buy a model AND download it on my hard drive, will there be >>>ANY<<< chance that Daz will prevent me
access to it, even if it is already on my hard drive.
If the answer is yes, that is not acceptable
regardless of your reasons...totally unacceptable
I pay PREMIUM price for excellent models, after I bought them
I expect unrestricted use of them as per the usage agreement.
Without fail.
sorry, that is how business works
If DAZ Studio thinks your computer's configuration has changed enough to be considered a different machine (they have not specified what exactly but it might be RAM, CPU serial number, Operating Sytem version, network adapter ID, etc.). You would be prevented from using your encrypted content until you sign back into DAZ Connect and reauthenticate your computer.
Ok I can understand the problem.
Here is my answer...no, don't even try it.
If that only effected stuff I had NOT YET downloaded...fine
If it effects what is on my hard drive already..hell no and I will justify it.
I have models in those file that have been significantly altered by me to the point
that they are now my sole property along with models purchased from other legal sources.
They have no rights to what is on MY hard drive.
Just want to make sure I understand this correctly.
If an Item is not encrypt, then I can still purchase and use it like in 4.6
Besides the latest updates , 4.9 is needed for encrypted items, and can not be used in versions earlier then 4.9
It is possible to export encrypted, as unencrypt, as another format then DUF
If you have to reregister it is necessary only to reconnect to the Daz servers. Note that this affects only encrypted content, not the unencrypted content installed via connect or via DIM..
DS 4.9 is not just encrypted content, if that's what you mean. You can export encrypted content as you can any other kind of content once it is in DS.
Hey Steve, Can you please edit your first post please. I think you chose a dark color for the text and your's is the only text that is not showing up properly for me. I have to highlight the entire post to see the text! Every one elses post shows up fine!