You've been heard. Response re: 4.9 and Encryption

TesseractSpace

Here's a question, why do people assume the situation is DRM or doing nothing? Are there truly no other options? I know CD Projekt RED seems to have had success with direct appeal to the decency of their customers. Then again, I suppose not everyone has a hit game like the Witcher 3 bringing in buyers enough to make up for whatever losses they might be experiencing. And they're in an industry where DRM is the norm and pretty much infamous so they stand out... Well it's still a thought.

 

I do kinda wonder what the actual numbers of lost purchases really are. Not the 'every copy is a lost sale' rhetoric used to justify investing in DRM but the actual number of people who would have bought the item. (which would admittedly be impossible to know, sadly)  

 

 

acanthis

Khory said:

lx said:

Sorel said:

To be fair, it is a vocal few >_>

"A vocal few have issues with this new version, whereas vocal support is even smaller. Most don't know or don't care or can't be bothered to say anything."

Or have been called names and so have opted out of too much discussion.

I have followed all of these threads from the very beginning and I don't recall any name calling, except possibly directed at DAZ. Actually, I respect those people who love DAZ and DRM. They have as much right to be heard as everyone else in this "debate". I just don't agree with them.

Petercat

Comment removed by author. Issue resolved.

TesseractSpace

Petercat said:

barbult said:

Petercat said:

Sorel said:

To be fair, it is a vocal few >_>

Of the population on this thread? Not so few.

My objection was mostly to the part, "who want to have their feelings hurt."

Adding "want to" was unneeded, childish, and gratuitously insulting.

If Steve had said "who have their feelings hurt", I wouldn't have even mentioned it.

But for this to come from the freakin' Director of Marketing??!! Un-freaking-believable.

"who want to have their feelings hurt"???? Where did you read that? I think you may be misquoting.

 

That was a direct cut-and-paste from Steve's comment. It appears to have been changed since then.

Yeah, think he might have realized just how insulting and patronizing that turn of phrase was. Hoping that was just him being tired and/or out of sorts, I'd really hate to think that he really thinks that

 

Added: He's apologized. I'd remove the above but I dislike erasing posts just to hide the past. Editing is for fixing typos not changing history.

lx_2807502

TesseractSpace said:

Here's a question, why do people assume the situation is DRM or doing nothing? Are there truly no other options? I know CD Projekt RED seems to have had success with direct appeal to the decency of their customers. Then again, I suppose not everyone has a hit game like the Witcher 3 bringing in buyers enough to make up for whatever losses they might be experiencing. And they're in an industry where DRM is the norm and pretty much infamous so they stand out... Well it's still a thought.

 

I do kinda wonder what the actual numbers of lost purchases really are. Not the 'every copy is a lost sale' rhetoric used to justify investing in DRM but the actual number of people who would have bought the item. (which would admittedly be impossible to know, sadly)  

 

 

I keep asking how people are figuring out how many sales are actually being lost. No one's answered how they could possibly know yet, but they'd have to raise prices because of it? It's a bit confusing.

 

Standard disclaimer: don't really care if DRM is there with the right checks in place (which is happening) nor do I support piracy. Connect is still undesirable for many reasons.

Petercat

I've always believed that when you are right, you never back down, no matter the cost.

When you are wrong, you admit it, back off, and change your actions so as to become right.

stebloke

I am sorry, but this is just not good enough for me. I assumed this was the type of response we would get and it saddens me to see I was right. But I just can't in all good conscience ever part with money for any product that has any kind of DRM on it. No matter what Daz say (or any other company that uses DRM) I just don't trust 100% that I would still be able to use that content way into the future. I can see at least that Daz seem to be more trustworthy than most, and are trying to put assurances in place, but I have no reason to fully believe that both they and the company they have contracted to release the de-cryptor will follow through on their promises. When I buy something, I want to know 100% guaranteed that I own it for good. I'm a stubborn old git, and this will never change.

I had hoped that in several months time the purchases of DRM content would be so low that Daz would maybe reconsider their stance. But I highly doubt that will happen, as too many people seem to be ok with what is happening. I obviously can't say for sure, but now I can't see a future that does not involve Daz putting DRM on all their new content, or why else would they even start down this road?

What this all means is that it's pointless for me to spend any more money here at all. Even on items with no DRM. Because if this is the route they are taking then I may as well get out now. I'm getting sort-of-similar flashbacks to how I felt when Steam first started to grow. I saw how potentially dangerous that platform was, and was more and more disappointed the more people came to accept it. But can you imagine what would happen if Steam suddenly went under and everyone lost access to all those games? That's how I feel about anything with DRM on it, so that's why I don't buy it. And all the people who do accept it are only going to put themselves in that risky position.

I know what I've spent on this hobby is peanuts compared to most, and the loss of my money will not hurt Daz in the slightest, but for someone with my views this is my only real course of action.

And for people bringing up the analogy about a store checking receipts at the door, DRM is nothing like that at all. If someone checks your receipt at the door, that's fine. Because once you are out, that product is yours. Normal DRM is more akin to having to go back to the store and show your receipt every time you want to use the product. I know what Daz have implemented is less insistent than that, and you only need to "show the receipt" once each time you install, but it is still annoying and frustrating.

For me personally, it's either no DRM, or no sale.
Sorry Daz. I guess good luck to you, but I'm out.

Petercat

stebloke said:

I am sorry, but this is just not good enough for me. I assumed this was the type of response we would get and it saddens me to see I was right. But I just can't in all good conscience ever part with money for any product that has any kind of DRM on it. No matter what Daz say (or any other company that uses DRM) I just don't trust 100% that I would still be able to use that content way into the future. I can see at least that Daz seem to be more trustworthy than most, and are trying to put assurances in place, but I have no reason to fully believe that both they and the company they have contracted to release the de-cryptor will follow through on their promises. When I buy something, I want to know 100% guaranteed that I own it for good. I'm a stubborn old git, and this will never change.

I had hoped that in several months time the purchases of DRM content would be so low that Daz would maybe reconsider their stance. But I highly doubt that will happen, as too many people seem to be ok with what is happening. I obviously can't say for sure, but now I can't see a future that does not involve Daz putting DRM on all their new content, or why else would they even start down this road?

What this all means is that it's pointless for me to spend any more money here at all. Even on items with no DRM. Because if this is the route they are taking then I may as well get out now. I'm getting sort-of-similar flashbacks to how I felt when Steam first started to grow. I saw how potentially dangerous that platform was, and was more and more disappointed the more people came to accept it. But can you imagine what would happen if Steam suddenly went under and everyone lost access to all those games? That's how I feel about anything with DRM on it, so that's why I don't buy it. And all the people who do accept it are only going to put themselves in that risky position.

I know what I've spent on this hobby is peanuts compared to most, and the loss of my money will not hurt Daz in the slightest, but for someone with my views this is my only real course of action.

And for people bringing up the analogy about a store checking receipts at the door, DRM is nothing like that at all. If someone checks your receipt at the door, that's fine. Because once you are out, that product is yours. Normal DRM is more akin to having to go back to the store and show your receipt every time you want to use the product. I know what Daz have implemented is less insistent than that, and you only need to "show the receipt" once each time you install, but it is still annoying and frustrating.

For me personally, it's either no DRM, or no sale.
Sorry Daz. I guess good luck to you, but I'm out.

Sorry to hear that, stebloke. If you stick with 4.8 (probably 4.9 as well) and the existing non-encrypted stuff, you'll be okay. That's what I'm going to do, as DAZ can never take that away from me. (My art computer never has, and never will go online, so encryption is preventing me from purchasing those items anyway).

But seriously, there is no need to abandon a decent 3D graphics program because future content might be encrypted!

cherpenbeck

No DRM for me, too, but I'll happily continue to buy old, non DRM content (and some of these old figures and clothing look definitely better than the new generation, just remembering the tube-like sleeves so many of the new garments have).

SpyroRue

Wow so that's all you Daz_people have gotten from the observably overwhelming response of your community, in this short yet apparently test conclusive timeframe?  I don't know why I am so surprised really. It was clear from day one that you'd made up your minds long ago and nothing was ever going to change it. Congrats on the success of 4.9, it must have download figures similar 4.8 and 4.7 when they launched. A shame it has nothing to do with users approving DRM Encrypted content. Thanks Daz for the good times, but I wont be following you down this road, you're on your own.

 

 

Cris Palomino

Barbult, I recommend putting a ticket with just what was discussed here so it gets on their list to go over.  Even though Daz is actively monitoring, I would go that extra step just to be sure.  :)

TesseractSpace said:

Petercat said:

barbult said:

Petercat said:

Sorel said:

To be fair, it is a vocal few >_>

Of the population on this thread? Not so few.

My objection was mostly to the part, "who want to have their feelings hurt."

Adding "want to" was unneeded, childish, and gratuitously insulting.

If Steve had said "who have their feelings hurt", I wouldn't have even mentioned it.

But for this to come from the freakin' Director of Marketing??!! Un-freaking-believable.

"who want to have their feelings hurt"???? Where did you read that? I think you may be misquoting.

 

That was a direct cut-and-paste from Steve's comment. It appears to have been changed since then.

Yeah, think he might have realized just how insulting and patronizing that turn of phrase was. Hoping that was just him being tired and/or out of sorts, I'd really hate to think that he really thinks that

Considering how many times I've posted things and then as I reread them after posting, have gone and changed and reworded things up to a dozen times realizing I actually meant to say something another way, or decided it was better put another way or adding something I forgot.  Many people do that.  And thank goodness we have the ability to do that because some of us would be cherry-red with mistakes we made with posting and had no edit recourse.  I've made some whole-word -typos that made me think I had a multiple personality disorder and one of them was having fun with me when I was typing.  

I've been a PA with Daz since 2001.  My first SKU was 370.  I was one of the first moderators when Daz began their forums.  I've had a lot of dealings with Daz and those working there and they are good people.  I have stayed with Daz because I've never seen a company that bends so far backwards for their customers. They have made errors and always tried to make things right when it comes to sales and other things that concern their customers.  It's far too easy to ascribe wrong doing, mal-intent, corporate-speak when you're dealing with a company and a handful of names.  I wish you guys had the ability to know these people as some of us, PAs and mods, do.  The information that was presented by Steve may not address everything, but it is certainly showing that they are listening and working on things.  It's only been a week and you already have gotten some official word.   

People have a tendency to get into it and rile each other up.  Ok, that's good, you' make your opnions heard.  Don't let it become circular.  Circles just keep moving, but never go anywhere but around and around.  Decide what you're going to do or wait and listen to what's happening and reports from those that are working with Connect.  It's a work in progress.  Have respect for one another.  Step away when it gets to be too much.  Report to the mods when you feel someone is out of line instead of responding in the forums.  Help us help you.

(Edited, and of course, the thing I typed wrong was the word "typos".  LOL!)

Taoz

 

Cris Palomino said:

Barbult, I recommend putting a ticket with just what was discussed here so it gets on their list to go over.  Even though Daz is actively monitoring, I would go that extra step just to be sure.  :)

TesseractSpace said:

Petercat said:

barbult said:

Petercat said:

Sorel said:

To be fair, it is a vocal few >_>

Of the population on this thread? Not so few.

My objection was mostly to the part, "who want to have their feelings hurt."

Adding "want to" was unneeded, childish, and gratuitously insulting.

If Steve had said "who have their feelings hurt", I wouldn't have even mentioned it.

But for this to come from the freakin' Director of Marketing??!! Un-freaking-believable.

"who want to have their feelings hurt"???? Where did you read that? I think you may be misquoting.

 

That was a direct cut-and-paste from Steve's comment. It appears to have been changed since then.

Yeah, think he might have realized just how insulting and patronizing that turn of phrase was. Hoping that was just him being tired and/or out of sorts, I'd really hate to think that he really thinks that

Considering how many times I've posted things and then as I reread them after posting, have gone and changed and reworded things up to a dozen times realizing I actually meant to say something another way, or decided it was better put another way or adding something I forgot.  Many people do that.  And thank goodness we have the ability to do that because some of us would be cherry-red with mistakes we made with posting and had no edit recourse.  I've made some whole-word -ypos that made me think I had a multiple personality disorder and one of them was having fun with me when I was typing.  

I've been a PA with Daz since 2001.  My first SKU was 370.  I was one of the first moderators when Daz began their forums.  I've had a lot of dealings with Daz and those working there and they are good people.  I have stayed with Daz because I've never seen a company that bends so far backwards for their customers. They have made errors and always tried to make things right when it comes to sales and other things that concern their customers.  It's far too easy to ascribe wrong doing, mal-intent, corporate-speak when you're dealing with a company and a handful of names.  I wish you guys had the ability to know these people as some of us, PAs and mods, do.  The information that was presented by Steve may not address everything, but it is certainly showing that they are listening and working on things.  It's only been a week and you already have gotten some official word.   

People have a tendency to get into it and rile each other up.  Ok, that's good, you' make your opnions heard.  Don't let it become circular.  Circles just keep moving, but never go anywhere but around and around.  Decide what you're going to do or wait and listen to what's happening and reports from those that are working with Connect.  It's a work in progress.  Have respect for one another.  Step away when it gets to be too much.  Report to the mods when you feel someone is out of line instead of responding in the forums.  Help us help you.

Well said.   

Petercat

Cris Palomino said:

Barbult, I recommend putting a ticket with just what was discussed here so it gets on their list to go over.  Even though Daz is actively monitoring, I would go that extra step just to be sure.  :)

TesseractSpace said:

Petercat said:

barbult said:

Petercat said:

Sorel said:

To be fair, it is a vocal few >_>

Of the population on this thread? Not so few.

My objection was mostly to the part, "who want to have their feelings hurt."

Adding "want to" was unneeded, childish, and gratuitously insulting.

If Steve had said "who have their feelings hurt", I wouldn't have even mentioned it.

But for this to come from the freakin' Director of Marketing??!! Un-freaking-believable.

"who want to have their feelings hurt"???? Where did you read that? I think you may be misquoting.

 

That was a direct cut-and-paste from Steve's comment. It appears to have been changed since then.

Yeah, think he might have realized just how insulting and patronizing that turn of phrase was. Hoping that was just him being tired and/or out of sorts, I'd really hate to think that he really thinks that

Considering how many times I've posted things and then as I reread them after posting, have gone and changed and reworded things up to a dozen times realizing I actually meant to say something another way, or decided it was better put another way or adding something I forgot.  Many people do that.  And thank goodness we have the ability to do that because some of us would be cherry-red with mistakes we made with posting and had no edit recourse.  I've made some whole-word -ypos that made me think I had a multiple personality disorder and one of them was having fun with me when I was typing.  

I've been a PA with Daz since 2001.  My first SKU was 370.  I was one of the first moderators when Daz began their forums.  I've had a lot of dealings with Daz and those working there and they are good people.  I have stayed with Daz because I've never seen a company that bends so far backwards for their customers. They have made errors and always tried to make things right when it comes to sales and other things that concern their customers.  It's far too easy to ascribe wrong doing, mal-intent, corporate-speak when you're dealing with a company and a handful of names.  I wish you guys had the ability to know these people as some of us, PAs and mods, do.  The information that was presented by Steve may not address everything, but it is certainly showing that they are listening and working on things.  It's only been a week and you already have gotten some official word.   

People have a tendency to get into it and rile each other up.  Ok, that's good, you' make your opnions heard.  Don't let it become circular.  Circles just keep moving, but never go anywhere but around and around.  Decide what you're going to do or wait and listen to what's happening and reports from those that are working with Connect.  It's a work in progress.  Have respect for one another.  Step away when it gets to be too much.  Report to the mods when you feel someone is out of line instead of responding in the forums.  Help us help you.

I agree with you that there are a lot of exceptionally good people here, both at DAZ and among the commenters on the forums. In fact, I can only think of two (out of sooooo many) who have been rude, insulting, or condescending here in the forums. That's one of the reasons that I am sticking with Daz3D.

It is also one of the reasons that I am puzzled over your switch to encrypted content. If you were a bunch of jerks who had disdain for your customers, it would be understandable. But you're not, and it isn't.

I'm not sure if repeating our unhappiness over and over again is circular, or a desperate attempt to convince the decision makers at Daz to change their minds.

Oops... had to use that useful "edit" button mself.

Arrgh... Never mind.

lx_2807502

Cris Palomino said:

Barbult, I recommend putting a ticket with just what was discussed here so it gets on their list to go over.  Even though Daz is actively monitoring, I would go that extra step just to be sure.  :)

TesseractSpace said:

Petercat said:

barbult said:

Petercat said:

Sorel said:

To be fair, it is a vocal few >_>

Of the population on this thread? Not so few.

My objection was mostly to the part, "who want to have their feelings hurt."

Adding "want to" was unneeded, childish, and gratuitously insulting.

If Steve had said "who have their feelings hurt", I wouldn't have even mentioned it.

But for this to come from the freakin' Director of Marketing??!! Un-freaking-believable.

"who want to have their feelings hurt"???? Where did you read that? I think you may be misquoting.

 

That was a direct cut-and-paste from Steve's comment. It appears to have been changed since then.

Yeah, think he might have realized just how insulting and patronizing that turn of phrase was. Hoping that was just him being tired and/or out of sorts, I'd really hate to think that he really thinks that

Considering how many times I've posted things and then as I reread them after posting, have gone and changed and reworded things up to a dozen times realizing I actually meant to say something another way, or decided it was better put another way or adding something I forgot.  Many people do that.  And thank goodness we have the ability to do that because some of us would be cherry-red with mistakes we made with posting and had no edit recourse.  I've made some whole-word -ypos that made me think I had a multiple personality disorder and one of them was having fun with me when I was typing.  

I've been a PA with Daz since 2001.  My first SKU was 370.  I was one of the first moderators when Daz began their forums.  I've had a lot of dealings with Daz and those working there and they are good people.  I have stayed with Daz because I've never seen a company that bends so far backwards for their customers. They have made errors and always tried to make things right when it comes to sales and other things that concern their customers.  It's far too easy to ascribe wrong doing, mal-intent, corporate-speak when you're dealing with a company and a handful of names.  I wish you guys had the ability to know these people as some of us, PAs and mods, do.  The information that was presented by Steve may not address everything, but it is certainly showing that they are listening and working on things.  It's only been a week and you already have gotten some official word.   

People have a tendency to get into it and rile each other up.  Ok, that's good, you' make your opnions heard.  Don't let it become circular.  Circles just keep moving, but never go anywhere but around and around.  Decide what you're going to do or wait and listen to what's happening and reports from those that are working with Connect.  It's a work in progress.  Have respect for one another.  Step away when it gets to be too much.  Report to the mods when you feel someone is out of line instead of responding in the forums.  Help us help you.

I whole-heartedly believe the people we see posting from Daz (and the moderators) are trying super hard to deliver the best things they can. I'm not so sure about the higher up parts from things I've read, but there's only one side of a story around and so no way to know either way. Regardless, I like Daz, and that is what has caused me to spend so much money here.

The new changes though ... I believe they're made with good intentions, but that doesn't make them the right changes. Connect is too complicated, and designed for new users, but also tries to force experienced users onto it. If you happen to like Connect, that's great. Right now you can ignore it too - unless you want encrypted content.

The reasons given for adding DRM are also good intentions, but lacking in any sort of actual evidence. 

I completely agree with Daz's good intentions. They are things they think will help their customers, that should help their customers. I just think the specific attempts to achieve those intentions are a bit the opposite of good.

stebloke

Petercat said:

stebloke said:

I am sorry, but this is just not good enough for me. I assumed this was the type of response we would get and it saddens me to see I was right. But I just can't in all good conscience ever part with money for any product that has any kind of DRM on it. No matter what Daz say (or any other company that uses DRM) I just don't trust 100% that I would still be able to use that content way into the future. I can see at least that Daz seem to be more trustworthy than most, and are trying to put assurances in place, but I have no reason to fully believe that both they and the company they have contracted to release the de-cryptor will follow through on their promises. When I buy something, I want to know 100% guaranteed that I own it for good. I'm a stubborn old git, and this will never change.

I had hoped that in several months time the purchases of DRM content would be so low that Daz would maybe reconsider their stance. But I highly doubt that will happen, as too many people seem to be ok with what is happening. I obviously can't say for sure, but now I can't see a future that does not involve Daz putting DRM on all their new content, or why else would they even start down this road?

What this all means is that it's pointless for me to spend any more money here at all. Even on items with no DRM. Because if this is the route they are taking then I may as well get out now. I'm getting sort-of-similar flashbacks to how I felt when Steam first started to grow. I saw how potentially dangerous that platform was, and was more and more disappointed the more people came to accept it. But can you imagine what would happen if Steam suddenly went under and everyone lost access to all those games? That's how I feel about anything with DRM on it, so that's why I don't buy it. And all the people who do accept it are only going to put themselves in that risky position.

I know what I've spent on this hobby is peanuts compared to most, and the loss of my money will not hurt Daz in the slightest, but for someone with my views this is my only real course of action.

And for people bringing up the analogy about a store checking receipts at the door, DRM is nothing like that at all. If someone checks your receipt at the door, that's fine. Because once you are out, that product is yours. Normal DRM is more akin to having to go back to the store and show your receipt every time you want to use the product. I know what Daz have implemented is less insistent than that, and you only need to "show the receipt" once each time you install, but it is still annoying and frustrating.

For me personally, it's either no DRM, or no sale.
Sorry Daz. I guess good luck to you, but I'm out.

Sorry to hear that, stebloke. If you stick with 4.8 (probably 4.9 as well) and the existing non-encrypted stuff, you'll be okay. That's what I'm going to do, as DAZ can never take that away from me. (My art computer never has, and never will go online, so encryption is preventing me from purchasing those items anyway).

But seriously, there is no need to abandon a decent 3D graphics program because future content might be encrypted!

Oh no, that's not what I meant. I will of course continue to use what I've already got. But anything new will have to come from other stores, or I may even have to (shock horror) learn how to make content myself at long last. I just can't even consider rewarding Daz with more of my money for going in a direction I am fundamentally uncomfortable with.

Petercat

lx said:

 

I completely agree with Daz's good intentions. They are things they think will help their customers, that should help their customers. I just think the specific attempts to achieve those intentions are a bit the opposite of good.

Good line. I hope you don't mind if I use it in my webcomic!

"a bit the opposite of good"...heh-heh.

lx_2807502

Petercat said:

lx said:

 

I completely agree with Daz's good intentions. They are things they think will help their customers, that should help their customers. I just think the specific attempts to achieve those intentions are a bit the opposite of good.

Good line. I hope you don't mind if I use it in my webcomic!

"a bit the opposite of good"...heh-heh.

Thank you; I'm working on my positivity! You're quite welcome to steal it. I mean copy it. I mean

Petercat

stebloke said:

Petercat said:

Sorry to hear that, stebloke. If you stick with 4.8 (probably 4.9 as well) and the existing non-encrypted stuff, you'll be okay. That's what I'm going to do, as DAZ can never take that away from me. (My art computer never has, and never will go online, so encryption is preventing me from purchasing those items anyway).

But seriously, there is no need to abandon a decent 3D graphics program because future content might be encrypted!

Oh no, that's not what I meant. I will of course continue to use what I've already got. But anything new will have to come from other stores, or I may even have to (shock horror) learn how to make content myself at long last. I just can't even consider rewarding Daz with more of my money for going in a direction I am fundamentally uncomfortable with.

I can respect that. One word of advice, when shopping on other sites, use a disposable debit card. Some of them have had checkout security problems in the past, and I can't recall which ones. The credit card I use here has a tiny maximum balance, because all of the short-term sales here make replacing a disposable one difficult.

tl155180

DAZ_Steve said:

Just a couple of points I'd love to clarify: 4.9 works fine, even if you choose to use DIM rather than Daz Connect. Daz Connect is pretty much like DIM inside Studio, and non encrypted files transferred with Daz Connect are, as the name implies, not encypted. So people can use 4.9 and/or Daz Connect without buying or using encypted products. That was done for ease of use, especially for new users, and to prevent the need for another application. Rather you like or hate Daz Connect, please know that we are attempting to make the experience easier for new users so as to grow the community. As to claims of greed, control, etc. Etc. Around encryption, let me just say: nonsense. If people were not illegally distributing content, and as such undermining Daz, PAs, and honest customers, we would not have taken these steps. This is not a technical nor political challenge anyone would desire. As much as a vocal few have their feelings hurt due to trust issues, I ask that you imagine shopping at your favorite store and watching shoplifters simply walk out with product. Then seeing the store owners, who refuse to check receipts at the door because they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, and hear the owners state that they may have to raise prices due to all of the theft. Costco checks my receipt on the way out. I am honest, but I know this is because some people are not. Everyone in this forum has locks on their doors. I hope your neighbors are not offended by this. People keep discussing our motives. Ask yourselves what they are. Why would we create this tense discussion? Why would we add to that a legal promise to ensure you will always be able to use your content and decrypt it, and even promise such a solution gets handed out if we ever break our promise and charge for decryption? This does not gain us money. It stops theft. Plain and simple.

Its always nice to see when Daz takes notice of its customers' concerns (even if they are the detested "vocal few") and I do note and appreciate whenever I see this happen - eg when the recent "Free Weekend" sale was amended to free (with purchase) on the banner. However, this has only addressed one of my many concerns and so I still won't be buying encrypted content.

Your analogy, Steve, is a poor one. If someone walks out of a store with a physical product then they have deprived the store owners of the chance to sell that particular item. That is genuine theft and money is lost. However, the correct analogy here would've been a shoplifter walking into a store, inspecting a product and then using a special device to copy that item exactly and then walk out with the copy. Nothing was lost in that process other than a potential sale that might've happened if they weren't able to copy it. That is infringement of intellectual property rights. But assuming that pirates will start paying for products even if they are somehow unable to crack your encryption is, at best, wishful thinking.

The lock analogy is also poor. Your house is your own; when you put a lock on it you're protecting what you own, as well as your own life. Your neighbours have no right to access your house. If, however, you sold your house to your neighbours you would have to give them complete access to it and move out yourself, relinquishing control of the property. You do not just give them a temporary copy of the key and then keep changing the locks every so often so that they have to keep coming back to you for a new copy. What you are doing with DRM is letting us rent your products while you retain overall control and ownership over our bought copies. I have no interest in renting a product from you.

That said, its good that you're looking into a way to allow us to decrypt these items for good after we've first downloaded them - if we could do that through DIM though and not have to have our DS version connected online then I would potentially re-consider my position. I have no interest in a version of DS that has online access.

I've highlighted the section to which I particularly took offense. What you're saying there is that we - the law-abiding, honest customers - are being held responsible for what the pirates are doing. You are blaming us for the actions of a corrupt minority and holding us accountable. You're saying that because people are stealing your intellectual rights and you can't be bothered / can't afford to chase them down over it you're going to have to blanket punish everyone for it and treat us all as criminals to be on the safe side. Well, just so you know, I object to that reasoning.

Chohole

tl155180 said:

 

I've highlighted the section to which I particularly took offense. What you're saying there is that we - the law-abiding, honest customers - are being held responsible for what the pirates are doing. You are blaming us for the actions of a corrupt minority and holding us accountable. You're saying that because people are stealing your intellectual rights and you can't be bothered / can't afford to chase them down over it you're going to have to blanket punish everyone for it and treat us all as criminals to be on the safe side. Well, just so you know, I object to that reasoning.

I can assure you that DAZ 3D does have an active Copyright Abuse section staffed by people who spend their whole working day issueing DMCA take down notices. Which is why we do ask people to report any copyright abuse they spot on warez sites, for them to follow up on

tl155180

Chohole said:

tl155180 said:

 

I've highlighted the section to which I particularly took offense. What you're saying there is that we - the law-abiding, honest customers - are being held responsible for what the pirates are doing. You are blaming us for the actions of a corrupt minority and holding us accountable. You're saying that because people are stealing your intellectual rights and you can't be bothered / can't afford to chase them down over it you're going to have to blanket punish everyone for it and treat us all as criminals to be on the safe side. Well, just so you know, I object to that reasoning.

I can assure you that DAZ 3D does have an active Copyright Abuse section staffed by people who spend their whole working day issueing DMCA take down notices. Which is why we do ask people to report any copyright abuse they spot on warez sites, for them to follow up on

Thanks Chohole. Yes, I'm sure they do. I was partly referring to an earlier post in the previous thread where a Daz employee (I think it was Steve) said that DRM was necessary because chasing down and prosecuting pirates is very difficult and often not worth doing.

As I never, ever visit warez sites I'd never actually come across anything to report. I'm also not going to go out of my way to do so and help out considering Daz is telling me that they suspect me of being a criminal myself.

acanthis

tl155180 said:

Chohole said:

tl155180 said:

 

I've highlighted the section to which I particularly took offense. What you're saying there is that we - the law-abiding, honest customers - are being held responsible for what the pirates are doing. You are blaming us for the actions of a corrupt minority and holding us accountable. You're saying that because people are stealing your intellectual rights and you can't be bothered / can't afford to chase them down over it you're going to have to blanket punish everyone for it and treat us all as criminals to be on the safe side. Well, just so you know, I object to that reasoning.

I can assure you that DAZ 3D does have an active Copyright Abuse section staffed by people who spend their whole working day issueing DMCA take down notices. Which is why we do ask people to report any copyright abuse they spot on warez sites, for them to follow up on

Thanks Chohole. Yes, I'm sure they do. I was partly referring to an earlier post in the previous thread where a Daz employee (I think it was Steve) said that DRM was necessary because chasing down and prosecuting pirates is very difficult and often not worth doing.

As I never, ever visit warez sites I'd never actually come across anything to report. I'm also not going to go out of my way to do so and help out considering Daz is telling me that they suspect me of being a criminal myself.

And so the story continues. In a previous post on the old thread (one a post that mysteriously disappeared) I set out why I wasn't interested in all of this debate about the reasoning behind the introduction of DRM. I'm a customer and I buy what I want to buy; I don't buy what I don't want to buy, and I don't want to buy DRM. So it's very simple for me.

But, as DAZ keep on going back to this justification argument, I do wonder that if they are losing such vast sums of money to piracy, how do they stay in business and manage to offer so many deep discount sales? It doesn't add up to me, but I'd better leave it there as this is getting into speculation.

[Edited to clarify meaning]

Cris Palomino

acanthis said:

tl155180 said:

Chohole said:

tl155180 said:

 

I've highlighted the section to which I particularly took offense. What you're saying there is that we - the law-abiding, honest customers - are being held responsible for what the pirates are doing. You are blaming us for the actions of a corrupt minority and holding us accountable. You're saying that because people are stealing your intellectual rights and you can't be bothered / can't afford to chase them down over it you're going to have to blanket punish everyone for it and treat us all as criminals to be on the safe side. Well, just so you know, I object to that reasoning.

I can assure you that DAZ 3D does have an active Copyright Abuse section staffed by people who spend their whole working day issueing DMCA take down notices. Which is why we do ask people to report any copyright abuse they spot on warez sites, for them to follow up on

Thanks Chohole. Yes, I'm sure they do. I was partly referring to an earlier post in the previous thread where a Daz employee (I think it was Steve) said that DRM was necessary because chasing down and prosecuting pirates is very difficult and often not worth doing.

As I never, ever visit warez sites I'd never actually come across anything to report. I'm also not going to go out of my way to do so and help out considering Daz is telling me that they suspect me of being a criminal myself.

And so the story continues. In a previous post on the old thread (one that mysteriously disappeared) I set out why I wasn't interested in all of this debate about the reasoning behind the introduction of DRM. I'm a customer and I buy what I want to buy; I don't buy what I don't want to buy, and I don't want to buy DRM. So it's very simple for me.

But, as DAZ keep on going back to this justification argument, I do wonder that if they are losing such vast sums of money to piracy, how do they stay in business and manage to offer so many deep discount sales? It doesn't add up to me, but I'd better leave it there as this is getting into speculation.

If you mean this thread, http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/69752/no-encrypted-for-me/p1 it didn't mysteriously disappear; it was closed as Daz was going to create this one to make an official announcement.

Peter Fulford

hphoenix said:

DAZ_Steve said:

As to claims of greed, control, etc. Etc. Around encryption, let me just say: nonsense. If people were not illegally distributing content, and as such undermining Daz, PAs, and honest customers, we would not have taken these steps. This is not a technical nor political challenge anyone would desire. As much as a vocal few have their feelings hurt due to trust issues, I ask that you imagine shopping at your favorite store and watching shoplifters simply walk out with product. Then seeing the store owners, who refuse to check receipts at the door because they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, and hear the owners state that they may have to raise prices due to all of the theft. Costco checks my receipt on the way out. I am honest, but I know this is because some people are not. Everyone in this forum has locks on their doors. I hope your neighbors are not offended by this. People keep discussing our motives. Ask yourselves what they are. Why would we create this tense discussion? Why would we add to that a legal promise to ensure you will always be able to use your content and decrypt it, and even promise such a solution gets handed out if we ever break our promise and charge for decryption? This does not gain us money. It stops theft. Plain and simple.

 

 

And using the word 'theft' is disingenuous.  What is really happening here is Copyright Violation, specifically the illegal reproduction of copyrighted artwork/media content.  "Theft" requires that someone be deprived of legally owned property.  But as we all know, one sounds better to support the argument for DRM/Encryption since it is a much more invasive act, even if it is NOT accurate.  If someone does illegally download a copy of something DAZ offers for sale, it does not deprive any of the legitimate purchasers of their legally bought copy.  No loss of property, no theft.

 

I think any "reasonable person" (whose grandad used to ride the Clapham Omnibus) would be quite happy with "theft" being used to describe the antics of software piracy. I'm certainly content with its use, no matter any technical or legal inaccuracy. Even if there are other reasons for DRM (which I will still not be surprised to see down the road), it will impact theft to some degree.

 

acanthis

Cris Palomino said:

acanthis said:

tl155180 said:

Chohole said:

tl155180 said:

 

I've highlighted the section to which I particularly took offense. What you're saying there is that we - the law-abiding, honest customers - are being held responsible for what the pirates are doing. You are blaming us for the actions of a corrupt minority and holding us accountable. You're saying that because people are stealing your intellectual rights and you can't be bothered / can't afford to chase them down over it you're going to have to blanket punish everyone for it and treat us all as criminals to be on the safe side. Well, just so you know, I object to that reasoning.

I can assure you that DAZ 3D does have an active Copyright Abuse section staffed by people who spend their whole working day issueing DMCA take down notices. Which is why we do ask people to report any copyright abuse they spot on warez sites, for them to follow up on

Thanks Chohole. Yes, I'm sure they do. I was partly referring to an earlier post in the previous thread where a Daz employee (I think it was Steve) said that DRM was necessary because chasing down and prosecuting pirates is very difficult and often not worth doing.

As I never, ever visit warez sites I'd never actually come across anything to report. I'm also not going to go out of my way to do so and help out considering Daz is telling me that they suspect me of being a criminal myself.

And so the story continues. In a previous post on the old thread (one that mysteriously disappeared) I set out why I wasn't interested in all of this debate about the reasoning behind the introduction of DRM. I'm a customer and I buy what I want to buy; I don't buy what I don't want to buy, and I don't want to buy DRM. So it's very simple for me.

But, as DAZ keep on going back to this justification argument, I do wonder that if they are losing such vast sums of money to piracy, how do they stay in business and manage to offer so many deep discount sales? It doesn't add up to me, but I'd better leave it there as this is getting into speculation.

If you mean this thread, http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/69752/no-encrypted-for-me/p1 it didn't mysteriously disappear; it was closed as Daz was going to create this one to make an official announcement.

Not the thread. Sorry, my wording wasn't clear. The post vanished but I did not receive the usual explanation as to why.

Chohole

Note to all

Please bear in mind that the dev team is small, and very busy working on the code. Taking time to respond directly to users would pull them away from that which is why it is support, QA, and even the forum team who handle that (often with a crib-sheet from the devs).

Chohole

acanthis said:

Cris Palomino said:

acanthis said:

tl155180 said:

Chohole said:

tl155180 said:

 

I've highlighted the section to which I particularly took offense. What you're saying there is that we - the law-abiding, honest customers - are being held responsible for what the pirates are doing. You are blaming us for the actions of a corrupt minority and holding us accountable. You're saying that because people are stealing your intellectual rights and you can't be bothered / can't afford to chase them down over it you're going to have to blanket punish everyone for it and treat us all as criminals to be on the safe side. Well, just so you know, I object to that reasoning.

I can assure you that DAZ 3D does have an active Copyright Abuse section staffed by people who spend their whole working day issueing DMCA take down notices. Which is why we do ask people to report any copyright abuse they spot on warez sites, for them to follow up on

Thanks Chohole. Yes, I'm sure they do. I was partly referring to an earlier post in the previous thread where a Daz employee (I think it was Steve) said that DRM was necessary because chasing down and prosecuting pirates is very difficult and often not worth doing.

As I never, ever visit warez sites I'd never actually come across anything to report. I'm also not going to go out of my way to do so and help out considering Daz is telling me that they suspect me of being a criminal myself.

And so the story continues. In a previous post on the old thread (one that mysteriously disappeared) I set out why I wasn't interested in all of this debate about the reasoning behind the introduction of DRM. I'm a customer and I buy what I want to buy; I don't buy what I don't want to buy, and I don't want to buy DRM. So it's very simple for me.

But, as DAZ keep on going back to this justification argument, I do wonder that if they are losing such vast sums of money to piracy, how do they stay in business and manage to offer so many deep discount sales? It doesn't add up to me, but I'd better leave it there as this is getting into speculation.

If you mean this thread, http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/69752/no-encrypted-for-me/p1 it didn't mysteriously disappear; it was closed as Daz was going to create this one to make an official announcement.

Not the thread. Sorry, my wording wasn't clear. The post vanished but I did not receive the usual explanation as to why.

Due to the amount of traffic some who made posts which were removed as responses to other posts did not receive email notifications.  Hence they would appear to have mysteriously disappeared.

Blame it on Macavity.

ekstrarandom

I'm still using 4.8 mainly because I've grown up in Africa and know from experience that it is usually the brave front-runner wildebeests that get eaten by the crocodiles in their annual migration. (Also if 4.9 did something horrible to my laptop that may require a reinstall of work related software - I will lose my job and my two cats and I will be living under a bridge)

Moving to 4.9 will also depend on the answers to my two concerns below:

Concern Topic One:
-------------------------------
My most valuable tools are "Skin Builder", "Save and Share for Skin Builder", "Lie-baker" and "Skin Overlay" (awesome products!)
DAZ_Steve said in the beginning of this thread:
"Obviously this does not address some of the other issues such as scripts and tools that work on un-encrypted content.  But those are solved in other ways.  We are working (and will continue to work) with developers who have this need, in order to show them how to do it with encrypted content."

a) Am I correct to assume that since I'm only using Genesis 1 and therefore older content, that these products will be functioning in 4.9 - or can there be other compatibility issues?
b) Will these products be supported in future releases?

c) Will a product like "Let it Snow" still work in 4.9?

Concern Topic Two:
-------------------------------
I use Daz for illustration purposes and my style is the opposite of Iray realism, in fact I spend a huge amount of time and effort just to make things look less realistic.
I exclusively use Genesis 1 and the 3delight rendering engine and are very dependent on the following products:
"AOA Subsurface Gummy & Plastic Shaders", "AOA Subsurface Toon Shaders", "pwToon", "Visual Style Shaders" and "Camera Magic: ToonyCam Pro"

In another thread DAZ_Kevin said:
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/69709/daz-studio-4-9-daz-original-figure-skin-material-optimization#latest
"Future Daz Original figures and characters (in or out of the release bundles) will release with both sets of materials for the time being, as people upgrade to the new Daz Studio 4.9."

I am VERY concerned about the "for the time being"
a) Is Daz planning to stop support for 3delight in the future? - although this question was asked in another forum thread, it was to my knowledge never directly answered, so I'll appreciate if one of the Daz-connected people (pun intended) here, can answer this with a simple yes or no.

b) Will these products be fully compatible with 4.9?
c) Will these products be supported in future releases?

frogimus

Thank you @Chris Palomino for the post a page or 2 back. Respect +1 to you.

I think we should all bear in mind that the DAZ staff that post in the forums are employees and are (most likely) not the decision makers. I'm sure that even DAZ_Steve was trying to sugar coat the bitter pill he was tasked to give us. He didn't make the decision, but it was his job to deliver it to us. "Don't shoot the messenger" definitely applies here.

@petercat - good advice/warning about the security on other sites. I do all my ecommerce through Paypal. They have been great at catching fraudulent transactions and fixing them.

acanthis

tl155180 said:

 

Chohole said:

acanthis said:

Cris Palomino said:

acanthis said:

tl155180 said:

Chohole said:

I can assure you that DAZ 3D does have an active Copyright Abuse section staffed by people who spend their whole working day issueing DMCA take down notices. Which is why we do ask people to report any copyright abuse they spot on warez sites, for them to follow up on

Thanks Chohole. Yes, I'm sure they do. I was partly referring to an earlier post in the previous thread where a Daz employee (I think it was Steve) said that DRM was necessary because chasing down and prosecuting pirates is very difficult and often not worth doing.

As I never, ever visit warez sites I'd never actually come across anything to report. I'm also not going to go out of my way to do so and help out considering Daz is telling me that they suspect me of being a criminal myself.

And so the story continues. In a previous post on the old thread (one that mysteriously disappeared) I set out why I wasn't interested in all of this debate about the reasoning behind the introduction of DRM. I'm a customer and I buy what I want to buy; I don't buy what I don't want to buy, and I don't want to buy DRM. So it's very simple for me.

But, as DAZ keep on going back to this justification argument, I do wonder that if they are losing such vast sums of money to piracy, how do they stay in business and manage to offer so many deep discount sales? It doesn't add up to me, but I'd better leave it there as this is getting into speculation.

If you mean this thread, http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/69752/no-encrypted-for-me/p1 it didn't mysteriously disappear; it was closed as Daz was going to create this one to make an official announcement.

Not the thread. Sorry, my wording wasn't clear. The post vanished but I did not receive the usual explanation as to why.

Due to the amount of traffic some who made posts which were removed as responses to other posts did not receive email notifications.  Hence they would appear to have mysteriously disappeared.

Blame it on Macavity.

Ah, OK. So it didn't mysteriously disappear, it only appeared to mysteriously disappear. Got it.