You've been heard. Response re: 4.9 and Encryption

barbult

Fixmypcmike said:

Taozen said:

I was looking for the Connect FAQ and had a hard time finding it:

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/65509/daz-connect-faq/p1

How about putting it up as a sticky?

It is a sticky.

I think that some people spend 99% of their forum time in the Commons (like me). The FAQ sticky was probably not noticed, because it is a sticky in the Daz Studio Discussion forum, rather than the Commons, where this message is. 

Oso3D

TesseractSpace said:

I don't think mitigation is enough given how blatant the change in situation is and I still won't pay for any product with DRM, any product sold in order to promote a DRM item, any product by a PA who has products with DRM whether or not it's a DAZ Original, or any product made by someone who advocates DRM. Again, I find I take exception to the implied loss of trust involved. Still it doesn't do any good to mis-state DAZs position when it has actually been stated.

I think that's a little unfair to PAs, given they have absolutely 0 say in this and have no control over whether their stuff is encrypted. Unless you demand all vendors to cease selling their content to Daz.

 

Serene Night

I'm glad Smart Content will be improved. One thing I think is confusing is when you use Smart Content and select "All"  everything does not show up. You must instead go to available to find all content. That is very confusing to me. Why is all not all? And why are a lot of things in all, but not everything.

Anyway, I think improving that would be very helpful.

Petercat

We may have been heard, but we haven't been listened to!

The overwhelming majority of comments on the locked thread were anti-DRM/encryption/Connect-only, yet the answer from Daz has been basically, "We're sticking our fingers in our ears and singing! La-la-la-la!"

"Solution: We have developed and fully tested a utility which will decrypt, and save in non-encrypted formats, Daz products on a customer’s computer."

And just how long will it be before the hackers come up with the exact same thing? If Daz can do it, someone else can as well.

And what about those of us who can not, or will not, ever have their art computers online, even once? *crickets*.

These threads are pointless. Daz will not get rid of DRM/encryption/Connect-only, no way, no how. Even if it cut their sales by a margin that they couldn't ignore, piracy is an emotional issue. "Someone is stealing our property, we must DO SOMETHING no matter what it costs!"

They might hear our concerns, but they're not listening.

Despite the number of people who have stated that they will never purchase encrypted products, the folks at Daz seem to think that we're bluffing. I'm not.

Petercat

Peter Fulford said:

icecrmn said:

Peter Fulford said:

 

 

Cris Palomino said:

Frank__ said:

Crackers will crack DRM, not because of getting some 3d-models for nothing, but because of the challenge of cracking DRM. The usual thieves will use their code to crack DAZ-products and post them on the usual sites.

I thought the DAZ DRM would last about 3 month, but I've read somewhere - maybe at DAZ - that the encrypted stuff is already available un-encrypted. (How much time you spent on establishing the already-cracked-DRM-funnies, while someone could work on animation-stuff on Studio, Genesis 3 in Carrara - I digress.

 

The whole better handling of content, content updates, smart content etc. for beginners could have been implemented without the DRM-stuff. So your points 2 and 3 are obsolete.

 

The things that were found were products that were meant to be encrypted only and were, for a short time, on DIM.

 

Just think, if the DAZ encryption/DRM really, really works, they'll be able to give up the laborious 3D content business and sell their super-007-Q secrets to government security agencies and high profile persons with private email servers.

 

the best crypto teams on Earth are saying in 2 years it will be uncrackable.

 

"The area's secure, Ripley."

Probably less news on what the best de-crypto teams on Earth are saying.

 

 

Cinavia (Blu-Ray copy protection) was said to be unbreakable. Slysoft has broken it.

TesseractSpace

timmins.william said:

TesseractSpace said:

I don't think mitigation is enough given how blatant the change in situation is and I still won't pay for any product with DRM, any product sold in order to promote a DRM item, any product by a PA who has products with DRM whether or not it's a DAZ Original, or any product made by someone who advocates DRM. Again, I find I take exception to the implied loss of trust involved. Still it doesn't do any good to mis-state DAZs position when it has actually been stated.

I think that's a little unfair to PAs, given they have absolutely 0 say in this and have no control over whether their stuff is encrypted. Unless you demand all vendors to cease selling their content to Daz.

 

I know it's harsh, but the PA's have more pull and more lines of communication than most of us have. Maybe if some of them expressed dissatisfaction with this state of affairs it might get through. After all, my pitiful purchases are a drop in the bucket compared what is brought in through their sales. Even if they're just casually asking DAZ to please not use a product they made to promote DRM it'd likely have more impact than the customers who've stated intent to leave.  

 

The usual problem of an individual dealing with a business, they hold nearly all the cards, and this gesture pathetic as is, is the only thing I can do to try to convince them they've made a mistake. I'm below the notice of the company, so I try in the little way I can to maybe get the notice of the individuals who work with the company.

 

I know that customers can always organize to make a bigger statement than they could as individuals, but I'm just getting too burnt out and tired. Like I said in a prior thread, if this is the direction of the market then perhaps it's time after 15 years to get out of this.  Kinda sad that as fairly noticeable segments of the gaming industry abandon DRM, someone felt they needed to introduce it here.

 

BTW: if anyone at DAZ cares, your store tab brings up bad flashbacks of the Content Paradise tab in Poser. Were there really customers asking for that? Did anyone say: "I just hate having to go start my web browser when I want to buy something in the middle of making a scene!"? Just a nitpick...

Oso3D

Well, I can certainly agree with 'don't buy encryption' because that sends a clear message. Particularly if you DO buy un-encrypted. That's my plan.

I just don't think PAs have that much influence. Maybe a few do, but...

 

barbult

I don't object to a store tab in the application. I can close it if I don't want to see it. But I DO object to the fact that is shows incorrect prices! Even when I'm logged in, I don't see PC+ discounts.

Petercat

Christen said:

Gr00vus said:

I won't be buying any DRM encumbered products from DAZ/DAZ PAs. There isn't anything that can be done to change that.

+1

+2

Well since everyone feels the need to announce their plans, I'll join in.

No DRM for me. Not now, not ever. Make all of the insulting, condescending remarks that you want. There it is.

I am one of those that like DIM. If it ever goes away, then there will be no difference between Daz3D and the other websites as far as ease of use goes. They are already getting a slice of my 3D money, they'll just get a bigger one.

lx_2807502

barbult said:

I don't object to a store tab in the application. I can close it if I don't want to see it. But I DO object to the fact that is shows incorrect prices! Even when I'm logged in, I don't see PC+ discounts.

I object to its existence (and have sent in detailed feedback but nothing seems to have changed) because it's inferior to the web store in every possible way - except that it has a dark background, which the web store no longer has the ability to offer. Prices have issues, product images are tiny, making it harder than ever to see the overstylised renders, you don't get to compare multiple items, group things for deals, see what those deals are anyway...

I'm trying to imagine the user who is in such a mad rush to get a piece of content that they can't tab to a browser for more information or to see what sales are on or if they can combine it with another purchase.

DAZ_Steve_2154153

Just a couple of points I'd love to clarify: 4.9 works fine, even if you choose to use DIM rather than Daz Connect. Daz Connect is pretty much like DIM inside Studio, and non encrypted files transferred with Daz Connect are, as the name implies, not encypted. So people can use 4.9 and/or Daz Connect without buying or using encypted products. That was done for ease of use, especially for new users, and to prevent the need for another application. Rather you like or hate Daz Connect, please know that we are attempting to make the experience easier for new users so as to grow the community. As to claims of greed, control, etc. Etc. Around encryption, let me just say: nonsense. If people were not illegally distributing content, and as such undermining Daz, PAs, and honest customers, we would not have taken these steps. This is not a technical nor political challenge anyone would desire. As much as a vocal few have their feelings hurt due to trust issues, I ask that you imagine shopping at your favorite store and watching shoplifters simply walk out with product. Then seeing the store owners, who refuse to check receipts at the door because they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, and hear the owners state that they may have to raise prices due to all of the theft. Costco checks my receipt on the way out. I am honest, but I know this is because some people are not. Everyone in this forum has locks on their doors. I hope your neighbors are not offended by this. People keep discussing our motives. Ask yourselves what they are. Why would we create this tense discussion? Why would we add to that a legal promise to ensure you will always be able to use your content and decrypt it, and even promise such a solution gets handed out if we ever break our promise and charge for decryption? This does not gain us money. It stops theft. Plain and simple.

Petercat

timmins.william said:

Well, I can certainly agree with 'don't buy encryption' because that sends a clear message. Particularly if you DO buy un-encrypted. That's my plan.

I just don't think PAs have that much influence. Maybe a few do, but...

 

This +1

I, like you, am not planning on leaving DAZ. I will still buy unencrypted products (over 400 in my wish list!) I just won't buy encrypted.

DustRider

First, thanks for your response. It's good to know Daz 3D is listening.

Unfortunately, this doesn't address my concern with using content installed via connect, or encrypted content in Carrara. As a user of both Carrara and DS (and sometimes Poser), not being able to use these products directly in Carrara, or in some instances (for example the Troubadour) use it in Carrara at all (exporting a posed and clothed figure from DS to Carrara is simply not an acceptable work around for me), is not good. If the item can not be used in Carrara, then to me, the item is not as valuable as one that can be. Likewise, I tend to evaluate Carrara only items as somewhat less valuable than cross compatible items. This means that I will probably not be purchasing many (if any) encrypted items, and connect only content will be pretty much the same.

Now I'm not saying I won't purchase any, because if a particular item is something that I really like, then it may have more value to me, and I may be willing to only use it in DS. However, for the most part, going forward, without Carrara support, encrypted, or connect only will probably mean no sale for me. Unfortunately, Carrara users are once again ingored.

lx_2807502

DAZ_Steve said:

Just a couple of points I'd love to clarify: 4.9 works fine, even if you choose to use DIM rather than Daz Connect. Daz Connect is pretty much like DIM inside Studio, and non encrypted files transferred with Daz Connect are, as the name implies, not encypted. So people can use 4.9 and/or Daz Connect without buying or using encypted products. That was done for ease of use, especially for new users, and to prevent the need for another application. Rather you like or hate Daz Connect, please know that we are attempting to make the experience easier for new users so as to grow the community. As to claims of greed, control, etc. Etc. Around encryption, let me just say: nonsense. If people were not illegally distributing content, and as such undermining Daz, PAs, and honest customers, we would not have taken these steps. This is not a technical nor political challenge anyone would desire. As much as a vocal few want to have their feelings hurt due to trust issues, I ask that you imagine shopping at your favorite store and watching shoplifters simply walk out with product. Then seeing the store owners, who refuse to check receipts at the door because they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, and hear the owners state that they may have to raise prices due to all of the theft. Costco checks my receipt on the way out. I am honest, but I know this is because some people are not. Everyone in this forum has locks on their doors. I hope your neighbors are not offended by this. People keep discussing our motives. Ask yourselves what they are. Why would we create this tense discussion? Why would we add to that a legal promise to ensure you will always be able to use your content and decrypt it, and even promise such a solution gets handed out if we ever break our promise and charge for decryption? This does not gain us money. It stops theft. Plain and simple. We have been and will work with the community to resolve technical problems created by encryption. There will be some who have technical concerns. There will be some who have philosophical concerns. There will also be some who really don't want content to be harder to gain through illegal channels.

The steps you're currently taking with encryption have mostly eased my concerns; I just don't see it being as valuable to me as content that isn't locked into the Connect system (which encrypted or not, I don't want anything to do with because I can manage my content better than your software.) So if the content isn't either considerably cheaper or does something other content can't, I don't want to be locked into Connect (encrypted or not.) 

Having to create a third content management tab to fix the mess made of the existing two isn't inspiring news either. What was a simple problem is becoming even more complicated.

While I don't much care if something is encrypted or not anymore, I do disagree with the "we have to raise prices if we don't encrypt it" statement. There is no possible way I can imagine that you can quantify that. Yes, things are getting stolen, but those things are also still in the store. The only loss is in how many of those thefts would have been sales, which I can't find a way to objectively identify as a number. Can you? Or is it just the idea that all those thieves will buy encrypted content when they can't steal it?

Petercat

DAZ_Steve said:

Just a couple of points I'd love to clarify: 4.9 works fine, even if you choose to use DIM rather than Daz Connect. Daz Connect is pretty much like DIM inside Studio, and non encrypted files transferred with Daz Connect are, as the name implies, not encypted. So people can use 4.9 and/or Daz Connect without buying or using encypted products. That was done for ease of use, especially for new users, and to prevent the need for another application. Rather you like or hate Daz Connect, please know that we are attempting to make the experience easier for new users so as to grow the community. As to claims of greed, control, etc. Etc. Around encryption, let me just say: nonsense. If people were not illegally distributing content, and as such undermining Daz, PAs, and honest customers, we would not have taken these steps. This is not a technical nor political challenge anyone would desire. As much as a vocal few have their feelings hurt due to trust issues, I ask that you imagine shopping at your favorite store and watching shoplifters simply walk out with product. Then seeing the store owners, who refuse to check receipts at the door because they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, and hear the owners state that they may have to raise prices due to all of the theft. Costco checks my receipt on the way out. I am honest, but I know this is because some people are not. Everyone in this forum has locks on their doors. I hope your neighbors are not offended by this. People keep discussing our motives. Ask yourselves what they are. Why would we create this tense discussion? Why would we add to that a legal promise to ensure you will always be able to use your content and decrypt it, and even promise such a solution gets handed out if we ever break our promise and charge for decryption? This does not gain us money. It stops theft. Plain and simple.

The owners would have to raise prices so that they could replace the stolen stock so that it would be there for customers to purchase. Are you trying to make us believe that you have a limited supply of trenchcoats, and every one that is pirated means one less available for sale?

This does not gain you money, it costs you in sales to people who would purchase it were it not  for encryption. It certainly does not stop theft! The history of DRM has proven that.

 

Sorel

To be fair, it is a vocal few >_>

lx_2807502

Sorel said:

To be fair, it is a vocal few >_>

"A vocal few have issues with this new version, whereas vocal support is even smaller. Most don't know or don't care or can't be bothered to say anything."

Petercat

Comment removed by author. Issue resolved.

WendyLuvsCatz

I do not like DRM and just try to avoid buying DRM too

likewise over at Reallusion I use iClone but buy very few of their DRM products I do buy stuff I can export to Carrara mostly,

will be the same thing with DAZ

it may cost more for pipeline versions but at least there is that option

Poser and Carrara useable versions of otherwise connect only items would find their way in my cart.

fixmypcmike

Let's all drop the personal attacks, please.

WendyLuvsCatz

for what its worth all my workmates buy their movies on DVD from a guy at work who illegally downloads them, even my bosses

they all think I am freaking mad because I buy mine from a shop

I do however get very angry about compulsery zoning stopping me from watching USA bought DVD's I cannot buy here in Australia on my Oceana zone 4 DVD fortunately I do have a multizone one too.

enforced by Sony corporation to supposingly stop piracy from DVD's bought from China but my illegal DVD buying co-workers never need worry do they, I am paying the producers not them.

lx_2807502

fool said:

for what its worth all my workmates buy their movies on DVD from a guy at work who illegally downloads them, even my bosses

they all think I am freaking mad because I buy mine from a shop

I do however get very angry about compulsery zoning stopping me from watching USA bought DVD's I cannot buy here in Australia on my Oceana zone 4 DVD fortunately I do have a multizone one too.

enforced by Sony corporation to supposingly stop piracy from DVD's bought from China but my illegal DVD buying co-workers never need worry do they, I am paying the producers not them.

Region locking has done quite a bit of damage to gaming too: so much so that almost every company has dropped it altogether.

Being Australian brings about a whole separate range of issues... the "Australia tax" the new GST import tax, the worthless dollar...

Khory

lx said:

Sorel said:

To be fair, it is a vocal few >_>

"A vocal few have issues with this new version, whereas vocal support is even smaller. Most don't know or don't care or can't be bothered to say anything."

Or have been called names and so have opted out of too much discussion.

Petercat

Fixmypcmike said:

Let's all drop the personal attacks, please.

Sorry. Will do.

Thanks for the comment, by the way. Sometimes I need to have the ol' reins jerked a bit. Especially when the jerk is... me.

namffuak

My pennyworth - I'm running 4.9 becausae it fixes some "interesting" hangs I was getting with Iray where it would loose contact with my GPU. Will I use Connect? Not likely - my internet access is dial-up so there is just no way I can do large downloads at home. I have managed to connect and authenticate, but I can't at this time even do the metadata downloads - I keep getting timeout errors (bug report submitted).

I'll continue using DIM offsite and copying the files over for install (by DIM); if I ever get a better internet connection, I'll re-think Connect.

TesseractSpace

Thing is, stores do let people walk out, sometimes even though they have good reason to suspect them of theft, because they don't want to lose business by accidently accusing an innocent person. Costco may check reciepts but they've consistently done so for as long as I've heard and they don't come to my house to check them again. You've added this after over a decade of the market not having DRM. And again, DRM is basically a statement that we're all guilty till your system proves us innocent.

The door lock is a poor analogy, though I suppose if you wanted us to feel locked out I know I've been feeling that way since my database reset, so mission accomplished I guess.

Again it's not me having a lock on the door, it's you putting a lock on there and giving me a balsawood key that I have to hope doesn't break when I try to use it. Right now I'm stuck crawling in through the window. 

DAZ is not my neighbor, we are not peers. The business relationship enshrined in the EULA is not one of equals. My neighbors also have no license to use my property and I give them no reason to desire to do so. The presence of a lock on my front door defines a different social contract and is not the same as your DRM. I am not placing a lock on something my neighbor has paid for the right to use.

I know it's not gaining you money, but I also know how little chance you have of slowing theft down more than briefly with this method. As well, I know how frequently the numbers involved in piracy are exaggerated in order to justify such measures. And no matter how much you promise we won't be locked out, the most you can promise is that we won't be permanently locked out, which is small comfort when you're stuck outside waiting on your locksmith.

Edited to remove reference to removed post

namffuak

Another ha'penny - DAZ has stated their position, and we aren't going to talk them out of it; continuing attempts to do so is just flailing in the wind.

Do I think DRM and/or encryption stops piracy? In the long run, no.

Do I think DRM and/or encryption causes problems for legitimate purchasers? Yes.

Am I seeing any issues with the way my activities are being restricted by DAZ's decisons? Right now, no.

I'll worry about the future when the future arrives.

acanthis

AlienRenders said:

"You've been heard."

Correction: You've been 100% completely ignored.

 

Yes, a definite +1 on that (+1000, actually!!).

My position is unchanged. I will not, under any circumstances whatsoever, buy DRM'd content. In fact, I have spent nothing here since the release of 4.9, which I will not install because it has been bloated out with functionality that I neither need nor want.

Thanks for the update, Steve. I wish you and DAZ all the best in the future with your new direction.

Taoz

barbult said:

Fixmypcmike said:

Taozen said:

I was looking for the Connect FAQ and had a hard time finding it:

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/65509/daz-connect-faq/p1

How about putting it up as a sticky?

It is a sticky.

I think that some people spend 99% of their forum time in the Commons (like me). The FAQ sticky was probably not noticed, because it is a sticky in the Daz Studio Discussion forum, rather than the Commons, where this message is. 

Yes, I meant in the Commons. They used to place all important stickies here because people didn't visit the other forums very much (which probably still is the case). And I think if it had been here it might have reduced the number the comments and questions in the Connect threads.

barbult

I was asked to delete my reply, so I did.