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  • hphoenixhphoenix Posts: 1,325
    Pendraia said:
     I think that maybe the important part of your sentence was the last bit an overwhelming number of people that simply did not get it or wanted it, but their way.

    Though their not understanding DIM is why this creates problems for them in most cases.  I'd better stop, though, we're drifting away from topic.  :) 

    And this is paramount to understanding what type of customer they are.  I'm sorry, but if they cannot (or will not) understand something as simple as DIM, they will NOT stay with DS or any other 3D system.  They are simply too complex, and those kinds of customers want 'point and click' functionality.  3D art doesn't work that way.  Creating even a simple scene can take hours.  They'll buy a few things, realize they don't want to spend that much time learning about lighting, shading, composition, etc., and leave.  But they are the very first to file an issue complaining about how hard it is to install something.

    You've let analytics override good judgement, I'm afraid.  If you think this is going to retain those 'new' customers, I think DAZ is in for a rude surprise......

     

  • lxlx Posts: 2,991

    lx and Pendraia:  In your comments about liking categorization, are you referring to the new one in DS 4.9?  That was a little fuzzy to me.

    No, there is a Categories section in Content Library (not Smart Content) that allows you to make your own folder structure, and assign your products to one or more of those folders as you please. So far as I know it didn't receive any changes in 4.9, sadly, since it has so much potential to allow users to organise their content however they want in a non-destructive fashion.

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,948
    edited January 2016

    lx and Pendraia:  In your comments about liking categorization, are you referring to the new one in DS 4.9?  That was a little fuzzy to me.

    I haven't installed 4.9 yet. I'm referring to how it works in 4.8. I'm in the middle of project and don't want to jinx myself by upgrading while working on it...as I don't have to use connect in DS4.9 I will most likely upgrade but I'm still waiting on all the migration bugs to be ironed out. I rely heavily on categories in the Content Library and have created my own I don't want to lose them. I do not use smart content in 4.8

     

    Post edited by Pendraia on
  • sapatsapat Posts: 1,735

    Yep, Lynsey is a totally awesome character with great MU and lip colors, and now I can't download her cuz I don't want to be forced into a different version of a program than what I prefer to use.  I don't want to be controlled by a higer authority and told I can't have access to products unless I get with the program.

    I don't use DIM....I don't use Smart Content, and don't use many of the other 'controlling' features that Daz wants me to use.

    How about I just offer to pay for her like any other character I buy here and can do my preferred manual download?

    Whatever..........nono

  • DanaTADanaTA Posts: 11,722
    lx said:
    Pendraia said:

    RawB said: Going over the experience for new users it seemed that DIM was an awkward and hard to manage system that overcomplicated things for the users. Sometimes the software has to get smarter so the users don't have to


     
    I always found DIM extremely easy to use and I'm very surprised by this statement on a number of levels. As a teacher I find the idea of dumbing things down like this offensive as it implies people should be kept in the dark rather than sharing the knowledge. Just because a user doesn't understand a system doesn't mean that they are not smart or that the system is too difficult. It simply means that they haven't had the system explained to them. Most of your current vendors would have learnt the skills they did by being exposed to them gradually starting with how to install things. People have to start somewhere. This may well rebound on you in the long term if your users aren't given the opportunities to develop skills where will you new vendors come from? Surely rather than go to  the expense of revamping a system it would be more effective to provide tutorials for people to learn. Speaking as someone who used to help new users on this site I would still prefer to educate people to use a system than to dumb the system down. People live up to your expectations of them just like kids in a school environment...
     

     

    Just want to quote this a thousand times, because I too thought DIM was extremely simple and intuitive, and I'm really sick of software dumbing things down and taking options away. And software not having a proper manual. Once again, the beginner's section of the Daz manual and tutorials are REALLY good. Then after day 1 it's a wasteland of silence, trial and error, and asking questions on forums for other customers to do the helping. I'd have preferred the money spent on Connect went on a user manual for the existing features, if that had ever been an option.

    Being a mod, I can certainly tell you that the sheer number of times we have had to try and explain DIM is mind-numbing to say the least.  While I wholeheartedly agree with you that I, too, found DIM easy to use (especially as I use as intended), there was an overwhelming number of people that simply did not get it or wanted it, but their way. 

    DIM is very simple to use.  I fought it at first, but when I finally decided to try it, I was pleased with how simple it is.  Now and then it has it's annoyances, but mostly I like it.

    As for those others...it's very difficult to learn something when you don't want to!  I'd like to see the actual statistics in this.  How many actually needed explanations?  If it were, say, one thousand people...that would be one tenth of one percent of what DAZ3D had previously claimed it was its user base.  I would not call that enough to warrant a change.  Even if it were ten thousand people, that would still be only one percent, still too low to go through the time and trouble to make such a change.  And somehow I doubt you replied to ten thousand people, one or two at a time, to explain it.

    Dana

  • hphoenixhphoenix Posts: 1,325

    Well, I just started a list of the PAs who have released Encrypted DAZ-Connect ONLY content.  I won't be buying anything they release or sell at this point, even if it is non-encrypted.  I don't agree with DRM, in any shape or size, no matter what you call it.


    I do hope it was their decison, and not DAZs, to make these particular releases this way.  I would hate to punish them for the actions of their distributor.  But if they support it, well.......

     

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 32,665
    hphoenix said:

    Well, I just started a list of the PAs who have released Encrypted DAZ-Connect ONLY content.  I won't be buying anything they release or sell at this point, even if it is non-encrypted.  I don't agree with DRM, in any shape or size, no matter what you call it.


    I do hope it was their decison, and not DAZs, to make these particular releases this way.  I would hate to punish them for the actions of their distributor.  But if they support it, well.......

     

    No PAs have released encrypted content.  If you check you will see that all the products that are encrypted are Daz Originals, 

  • hphoenixhphoenix Posts: 1,325
    Chohole said:
    hphoenix said:

    Well, I just started a list of the PAs who have released Encrypted DAZ-Connect ONLY content.  I won't be buying anything they release or sell at this point, even if it is non-encrypted.  I don't agree with DRM, in any shape or size, no matter what you call it.


    I do hope it was their decison, and not DAZs, to make these particular releases this way.  I would hate to punish them for the actions of their distributor.  But if they support it, well.......

     

    No PAs have released encrypted content.  If you check you will see that all the products that are encrypted are Daz Originals, 

    Funny, their names are listed on the products in the artist field along with the "Daz Originals".  Do they not have anything to do with the products?

     

  • I'm still using 4.8.  Upon seeing the first Connect-only items in the store, even the designation looked like nothing but a proverbial four-letter word that I want nothing to do with.

    I'm going to save a lot of money on content from now on, and I couldn't be happier.  :)

  • namffuaknamffuak Posts: 3,218
    hphoenix said:
    Chohole said:
    hphoenix said:

    Well, I just started a list of the PAs who have released Encrypted DAZ-Connect ONLY content.  I won't be buying anything they release or sell at this point, even if it is non-encrypted.  I don't agree with DRM, in any shape or size, no matter what you call it.


    I do hope it was their decison, and not DAZs, to make these particular releases this way.  I would hate to punish them for the actions of their distributor.  But if they support it, well.......

     

    No PAs have released encrypted content.  If you check you will see that all the products that are encrypted are Daz Originals, 

    Funny, their names are listed on the products in the artist field along with the "Daz Originals".  Do they not have anything to do with the products?

     

    Well - they created it - and then they sold all rights to it to DAZ - so they're out of the loop, and DAZ can give it away, charge an exhorbitant amount for it, or anything inbetween. The artis name stays on it because a great number of us know and respect the artists and their work and make purchasing decisions based on who actually created a product. But it isn't theirs anymore.

  • LeanaLeana Posts: 7,186
    hphoenix said:
    Chohole said:
    hphoenix said:

    Well, I just started a list of the PAs who have released Encrypted DAZ-Connect ONLY content.  I won't be buying anything they release or sell at this point, even if it is non-encrypted.  I don't agree with DRM, in any shape or size, no matter what you call it.


    I do hope it was their decison, and not DAZs, to make these particular releases this way.  I would hate to punish them for the actions of their distributor.  But if they support it, well.......

     

    No PAs have released encrypted content.  If you check you will see that all the products that are encrypted are Daz Originals, 

    Funny, their names are listed on the products in the artist field along with the "Daz Originals".  Do they not have anything to do with the products?

    They created it, and then sold it to DAZ for a flat fee. Now they don't own it anymore and have no say in what DAZ does with it, including choosing how it is distributed.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 32,665
    lx said:

    lx and Pendraia:  In your comments about liking categorization, are you referring to the new one in DS 4.9?  That was a little fuzzy to me.

    No, there is a Categories section in Content Library (not Smart Content) that allows you to make your own folder structure, and assign your products to one or more of those folders as you please. So far as I know it didn't receive any changes in 4.9, sadly, since it has so much potential to allow users to organise their content however they want in a non-destructive fashion.

    The Content Library received changes as well. Read the first few posts of the release thread.

  • lxlx Posts: 2,991
    edited January 2016
    Chohole said:
    lx said:

    lx and Pendraia:  In your comments about liking categorization, are you referring to the new one in DS 4.9?  That was a little fuzzy to me.

    No, there is a Categories section in Content Library (not Smart Content) that allows you to make your own folder structure, and assign your products to one or more of those folders as you please. So far as I know it didn't receive any changes in 4.9, sadly, since it has so much potential to allow users to organise their content however they want in a non-destructive fashion.

    The Content Library received changes as well. Read the first few posts of the release thread.

    I stand corrected! There are some nice new changes. That said the things I was referring to were from 4.8 and the Categories system is still a thing you either find by accident one day or never really know the abilities of or use. I still maintain that if users moving physical files around is such a problem in Studio, then why is that the way the Content Library works by default, rather than having it all display as non-destructive Categories and having a 'view in explorer' context option? There's no reason to have the main Content Library view physically modify the files, and since it's such a natural action to new users, it's always likely to cause problems. 

    Note: the solution is not to remove the Content Library (Smart Content should never ever replace being able to organise your own library) but only to remove the direct physical references to files in Content Library, replacing them with Category references.

    And to make it more obvious how to back up your library and the references (which I didn't know you could do until people complained about losing their categories in the beta.)

    And to make it more obvious how to restore (I think someone told me where to find my Categories backup file on disk but I don't remember and Studio sure isn't helping me find out.)

     

    Post edited by lx on
  • IceCrMnIceCrMn Posts: 1,019
    lx said:
    Chohole said:
    lx said:

    lx and Pendraia:  In your comments about liking categorization, are you referring to the new one in DS 4.9?  That was a little fuzzy to me.

    No, there is a Categories section in Content Library (not Smart Content) that allows you to make your own folder structure, and assign your products to one or more of those folders as you please. So far as I know it didn't receive any changes in 4.9, sadly, since it has so much potential to allow users to organise their content however they want in a non-destructive fashion.

    The Content Library received changes as well. Read the first few posts of the release thread.

    I stand corrected! There are some nice new changes. That said the things I was referring to were from 4.8 and the Categories system is still a thing you either find by accident one day or never really know the abilities of or use. I still maintain that if users moving physical files around is such a problem in Studio, then why is that the way the Content Library works by default, rather than having it all display as non-destructive Categories and having a 'view in explorer' context option? There's no reason to have the main Content Library view physically modify the files, and since it's such a natural action to new users, it's always likely to cause problems. 

    Note: the solution is not to remove the Content Library (Smart Content should never ever replace being able to organise your own library) but only to remove the direct physical references to files in Content Library, replacing them with Category references.

    And to make it more obvious how to back up your library and the references (which I didn't know you could do until people complained about losing their categories in the beta.)

    And to make it more obvious how to restore (I think someone told me where to find my Categories backup file on disk but I don't remember and Studio sure isn't helping me find out.)

     

    I brought up making the Content Library completely dynamic a few months ago myself. I still think it would be a fantastic way to allow users to shuffle stuff to their hearts  desire and not have any affect on the actual files themselves.

    The basic framework for something like that is in place now, so we are heading in the right direction :).

    For those reading this that haven't heard of this yet., In 4.9 you can drag and drop stuff from the Smart Content pane to the Content Library Pane and Studio will make a special file link that you can shuffle around the Content Library pane as you please without affecting the actual file.This works with the new encrypted items as well as any old non-encrypted items.

    You can also go the opposite direction, drag and drop stuff from the Content Library pane to the Smart Content pane, and Studio will make the database entries for you. This works in 4.8 as well as 4.9.

     

    ps., unfortunately, these posts are buried at the bottom an encryption discussion thread were they most likely won't be seen :(

  • lxlx Posts: 2,991
    icecrmn said:
    lx said:
    Chohole said:
    lx said:

    lx and Pendraia:  In your comments about liking categorization, are you referring to the new one in DS 4.9?  That was a little fuzzy to me.

    No, there is a Categories section in Content Library (not Smart Content) that allows you to make your own folder structure, and assign your products to one or more of those folders as you please. So far as I know it didn't receive any changes in 4.9, sadly, since it has so much potential to allow users to organise their content however they want in a non-destructive fashion.

    The Content Library received changes as well. Read the first few posts of the release thread.

    I stand corrected! There are some nice new changes. That said the things I was referring to were from 4.8 and the Categories system is still a thing you either find by accident one day or never really know the abilities of or use. I still maintain that if users moving physical files around is such a problem in Studio, then why is that the way the Content Library works by default, rather than having it all display as non-destructive Categories and having a 'view in explorer' context option? There's no reason to have the main Content Library view physically modify the files, and since it's such a natural action to new users, it's always likely to cause problems. 

    Note: the solution is not to remove the Content Library (Smart Content should never ever replace being able to organise your own library) but only to remove the direct physical references to files in Content Library, replacing them with Category references.

    And to make it more obvious how to back up your library and the references (which I didn't know you could do until people complained about losing their categories in the beta.)

    And to make it more obvious how to restore (I think someone told me where to find my Categories backup file on disk but I don't remember and Studio sure isn't helping me find out.)

     

    I brought up making the Content Library completely dynamic a few months ago myself. I still think it would be a fantastic way to allow users to shuffle stuff to their hearts  desire and not have any affect on the actual files themselves.

    The basic framework for something like that is in place now, so we are heading in the right direction :).

    For those reading this that haven't heard of this yet., In 4.9 you can drag and drop stuff from the Smart Content pane to the Content Library Pane and Studio will make a special file link that you can shuffle around the Content Library pane as you please without affecting the actual file.This works with the new encrypted items as well as any old non-encrypted items.

    You can also go the opposite direction, drag and drop stuff from the Content Library pane to the Smart Content pane, and Studio will make the database entries for you. This works in 4.8 as well as 4.9.

     

    ps., unfortunately, these posts are buried at the bottom an encryption discussion thread were they most likely won't be seen :(

    You can also (even in 4.8) right click your library in Content Library and click make category from folder and subfolders, and then you'll have a complete copy of your library right there that you can arrange and drag drop to your heart's desire too. It even has a sneaky hidden function to back it up and theoretically restore. Why this isn't the default as you said I don't know, because it makes so much more sense both for users and Daz support. 

  • StrixowlStrixowl Posts: 301
    sapat said:

    Yep, Lynsey is a totally awesome character with great MU and lip colors, and now I can't download her cuz I don't want to be forced into a different version of a program than what I prefer to use.  I don't want to be controlled by a higer authority and told I can't have access to products unless I get with the program.

    I don't use DIM....I don't use Smart Content, and don't use many of the other 'controlling' features that Daz wants me to use.

    How about I just offer to pay for her like any other character I buy here and can do my preferred manual download?

    Whatever..........nono

    EXACTLY !! I just wanna make art. Not spend so much time dealing with all this crazy stuff we don't need. Just getting over Windows 10 now this.

  • IceCrMnIceCrMn Posts: 1,019

    Smart content is no more a "controlling" feature than a card catalog is a "controlling" feature at the library.
    They both do the same job.One is a lot faster than the other though. :)

    You can still go directory diving in the Content Library if you want.It's still there.

    DIM/Connect just make it easier to download, install and update your stuff. I have nearly 1000 items from Daz in my library, and my collection looks like a starter set compared to some of the others that have been here longer than me.There is no way I'm going to try and keep all that updated one at a time on my own.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 10,389
    icecrmn said:

    Smart content is no more a "controlling" feature than a card catalog is a "controlling" feature at the library.
    They both do the same job.One is a lot faster than the other though. :)

    You can still go directory diving in the Content Library if you want.It's still there.

    DIM/Connect just make it easier to download, install and update your stuff. I have nearly 1000 items from Daz in my library, and my collection looks like a starter set compared to some of the others that have been here longer than me.There is no way I'm going to try and keep all that updated one at a time on my own.

    All true, but you're conveniently ignoring the DRM aspect.

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,948
    edited January 2016
    icecrmn said:
    lx said:
    Chohole said:
    lx said:

     

     

    I brought up making the Content Library completely dynamic a few months ago myself. I still think it would be a fantastic way to allow users to shuffle stuff to their hearts  desire and not have any affect on the actual files themselves.

    The basic framework for something like that is in place now, so we are heading in the right direction :).

    For those reading this that haven't heard of this yet., In 4.9 you can drag and drop stuff from the Smart Content pane to the Content Library Pane and Studio will make a special file link that you can shuffle around the Content Library pane as you please without affecting the actual file.This works with the new encrypted items as well as any old non-encrypted items.

    You can also go the opposite direction, drag and drop stuff from the Content Library pane to the Smart Content pane, and Studio will make the database entries for you. This works in 4.8 as well as 4.9.

    Thanks for the info...someone else mentioned that you could drag things from the Smart content pane to me recently. If I understand how categories work(please correct me if I'm wrong) that's how it works for putting links from both the DS and the poser content libraries. It's like it creates an instance of it not that it duplicates copies of the file. I will often create more than one category for something for example a hair would go in a general hair category but also within a people/figure/hair/category so I can find it whichever way I look. 

     

     

    Post edited by Pendraia on
  • IceCrMnIceCrMn Posts: 1,019

    For most of us, the first stop for all the content we buy is going to be Daz Studio anyway.At that point the encrypted content works just like any others. You can export it over the various bridges and out to all the same formats as  non-encrypted content if you are wanting to use it in another program.You can still edit the textures and maps if you want as awell. 

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,948

    If you said that a few years back I would have agreed but now for me at least that's not true...my money is spent for the most part here or at the Hive but I also spend quite a bit these days at RDNA and Rendo...in fact they have some really good stuff for Gen3 and the other figures I use. RDNA just released a beautiful figure for Gen3 female it's in their current newsletter. I don't really buy into the iconic characters though all the pro packs and even the starter packs are just too expensive especially with the Australian dollar where it is. Years back I bought stuff as it was released and owned pretty much everything but when you have 100's of gb's of runtime you start to be a little bit more choosy or at least I have. I'm not sure that I will buy into encrypted content...

  • IceCrMnIceCrMn Posts: 1,019
    Pendraia said:

    If you said that a few years back I would have agreed but now for me at least that's not true...my money is spent for the most part here or at the Hive but I also spend quite a bit these days at RDNA and Rendo...in fact they have some really good stuff for Gen3 and the other figures I use. RDNA just released a beautiful figure for Gen3 female it's in their current newsletter. I don't really buy into the iconic characters though all the pro packs and even the starter packs are just too expensive especially with the Australian dollar where it is. Years back I bought stuff as it was released and owned pretty much everything but when you have 100's of gb's of runtime you start to be a little bit more choosy or at least I have. I'm not sure that I will buy into encrypted content...

    :) 

    what I meant was that we will be installing and using the content in Studio first, not that the Daz Store would be the first choice for shopping.

    I shop at other stores , but I like whats being done here, so I shop here the most.We all have our individual preferences, and thats a good thing :)

    I'm planning on my tax returns this comming week, so I'm going to get to go on a shopping spree soon. Can't wait.

    I may miss out on some of the freebies that are available now, but I plan to get an annual membership, and the new dragon outfit for G3F is tops on my list.

  • lxlx Posts: 2,991

    I'm shopping here a lot less, mostly because I've already bought all the "essentials" to make whatever I want. Since then I've just been buying things I think look cool or fun, because the death of the Australian Dollar has made shopping online very painful. Buying encrypted content isn't appealing to me, but honestly I was already winding down on purchases. This'll just be another reason for me to tell myself "no, I don't actually need this new item." Though for me instead of going to other stores I've been learning other software to make my own things so that I don't have to wait for someone to release a thing I happen to need/want.

  • Strixowl said:
    sapat said:

    Yep, Lynsey is a totally awesome character with great MU and lip colors, and now I can't download her cuz I don't want to be forced into a different version of a program than what I prefer to use.  I don't want to be controlled by a higer authority and told I can't have access to products unless I get with the program.

    I don't use DIM....I don't use Smart Content, and don't use many of the other 'controlling' features that Daz wants me to use.

    How about I just offer to pay for her like any other character I buy here and can do my preferred manual download?

    Whatever..........nono

    EXACTLY !! I just wanna make art. Not spend so much time dealing with all this crazy stuff we don't need. Just getting over Windows 10 now this.

    It's not like the current DRM/encryption is doing anything to curb the availability of said product outside of the daz shop anyway. It's the same story as with game protections. For years pirates have had it better, while customers suffered under draconian DRM schemes. Only recently with the birth of denuvo has the tide changed a bit, at least for the part of the industry that embraces DRM. If you're going to do encryption, in an attempt to curb piracy, you better go all out. Otherwise pirates still get it, while customers get annoyed. If you're going to have annoyed customers, at least cut off the pirates completely.

    I've only recently started using daz for anything other than posing reference for drawing. Just bought a couple of manuals on rigging for making custom content. If I'm not mistaken, it will be harder to open up daz content directly in 3rd party apps for learning/dissecting purposes? Anything encrypted will have to be exported first. I also remember reading some old poser tutorials on rigging/modification and they were all about doing direct edits in the files with text editors. That kind of direct hacking is no longer possible?

  • jestmartjestmart Posts: 4,010

    The odds are the 3rd party apps couldn't read the duf files directly anyways so you still had to export first.

  • DarkpageDarkpage Posts: 8
    edited January 2016
    jestmart said:

    The odds are the 3rd party apps couldn't read the duf files directly anyways so you still had to export first.

    I just checked and all the various .d** files are text files and can be opened by any text editor. They contain all kinds of interesting information.
    The only non editable files are the HD morphs.

    Post edited by Darkpage on
  • jestmartjestmart Posts: 4,010

    You can read them but if it is not built in or there is an importer script/utility then the other 3D apps can't use them anyways.

  • jestmart said:

    You can read them but if it is not built in or there is an importer script/utility then the other 3D apps can't use them anyways.

    Right, you probably missed the part where I mentioned the old poser tutorials talked about hacking the values directly in a text/hex editor.

  • PetercatPetercat Posts: 2,180
    Petercat said:
    Pendraia said:

    You can of course return it within 30 days, the Compatible Software field has been like this for several years now.

    You can return it within 30 days, all right...

    Unless it is a sale item, or PC+, or...

    This is incorrect.  Those terms are always clearly stated in the ad banners and sales promo ad pages.  If you don't want the possibility of not being able to return because of those terms, you simply don't buy during a sale that excludes them for refund.  

    Confuse me your nitpickiness does.

    How is what I said incorrect? I didn't state that it wasn't said in the ad banners and sales promos ad pages.

    I don't mind being told that I am wrong, as long as I am actually wrong!

    Just because I might not include every possible exigency does not mean that I am wrong. Let me be anal for a moment:

    You cannot return every purchase within 30 days. Some items, such as many sale and PC+ items cannot be returned. To be certain, you must read the ad banners and sales promos ad pages and decide if the risk of not being able to return a defective or unwanted product is acceptable to you.

    Happy now? Sheesh. So much for brevity.

  • FixmypcmikeFixmypcmike Posts: 18,329
    Petercat said:
    Petercat said:
    Pendraia said:

    You can of course return it within 30 days, the Compatible Software field has been like this for several years now.

    You can return it within 30 days, all right...

    Unless it is a sale item, or PC+, or...

    This is incorrect.  Those terms are always clearly stated in the ad banners and sales promo ad pages.  If you don't want the possibility of not being able to return because of those terms, you simply don't buy during a sale that excludes them for refund.  

    Confuse me your nitpickiness does.

    How is what I said incorrect? I didn't state that it wasn't said in the ad banners and sales promos ad pages.

    I don't mind being told that I am wrong, as long as I am actually wrong!

    Just because I might not include every possible exigency does not mean that I am wrong. Let me be anal for a moment:

    You cannot return every purchase within 30 days. Some items, such as many sale and PC+ items cannot be returned. To be certain, you must read the ad banners and sales promos ad pages and decide if the risk of not being able to return a defective or unwanted product is acceptable to you.

    Happy now? Sheesh. So much for brevity.

    PC+ items can be returned.

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