Encryption discussions go here

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  • PetercatPetercat Posts: 1,857
    Pendraia said:

    You can of course return it within 30 days, the Compatible Software field has been like this for several years now.

    You can return it within 30 days, all right...

    Unless it is a sale item, or PC+, or...

  • Lucky ColtLucky Colt Posts: 1
    edited January 2016

    I've rarely ever felt the need to post, though I do read the forums from time to time, but I feel as though I need to have my voice heard this time.  I buy quite a bit of content from the store and am very disappointed in this DRM scheme that's been implemented.  There's already a new product that I would love to buy that's come out that is Connect only, one that I will unfortunately not be purchasing.  I just can't support DRM of any form.  I feel as though I'm a pretty loyal customer to DAZ, but this is a direction that I'm not happy with.  And if, as I fear it will eventually, all of the products end up becoming exclusive to Connect, I will have to take my business elsewhere.  My PC+ will be expiring sometime next month, but I'm not sure if I'll be resubbing after this.

    I hope that this decision is rethought, though it feels as though the ink is already dried and finalized.

    Post edited by Lucky Colt on
  • Petercat said:
    Pendraia said:

    You can of course return it within 30 days, the Compatible Software field has been like this for several years now.

    You can return it within 30 days, all right...

    Unless it is a sale item, or PC+, or...

    This is incorrect.  Those terms are always clearly stated in the ad banners and sales promo ad pages.  If you don't want the possibility of not being able to return because of those terms, you simply don't buy during a sale that excludes them for refund.  

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,927

    That's true Chris I have seen it clearly mentioned. So it seems that if it's something that states Daz 4.9 that for the moment I won't be buying unless I can verify it works in 4.8...which is a pity as I like the hoodie in the rebellious teen product...I've never liked the idea of buying and returning a product anyway unless the product doesn't work as stated. I wouldn't be able to justify it to myself in this case. I have asked the question in the thread for that outfit so I'll stop derailing this one...

  • lxlx Posts: 2,916
    Pendraia said:

    That's true Chris I have seen it clearly mentioned. So it seems that if it's something that states Daz 4.9 that for the moment I won't be buying unless I can verify it works in 4.8...which is a pity as I like the hoodie in the rebellious teen product...I've never liked the idea of buying and returning a product anyway unless the product doesn't work as stated. I wouldn't be able to justify it to myself in this case. I have asked the question in the thread for that outfit so I'll stop derailing this one...

    Anything that came out before 4.9 is still going to work in 4.8, and that was released the day before.

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,927

    Thanks LX...I might wait for confirmation from the vendor though as I don't like to buy and then return.

  • Ken OBanionKen OBanion Posts: 1,414

    Okay, I have just installed DAZ Studio 4.9 on one of my computers (it isn't going onto my MAIN 3D system till it has been thoroughly worked over and has had the absolute crap beat out of it), and I had Hell's own time getting it to recognize my content libraries -- I maintain two; one on a network share, and another on an external drive that goes "walkabout" with whatever machine I happen to be toting around with me on any given day.  I suspect that the basic problem is that the external drive is seriously out-of-sync, but I can fix that.  But that isn't my issue....

    My concern basically involves disaster recovery.  Let's say, for example, that a disk containing my content does the old 'Johnny Storm' schtick -- 'Flame on, torch!' and all that -- and ends up as little more than a heavily-charred paperweight.  If I have a lot of encrypted content, how difficult will it be to recover from that?

    My understanding is that DAZ Connect downloads everything to a specified directory on the local hard drive.  Okay, so far, so good; I can back up that directory, archive its contents, and otherwise do what any self-respecting paranoid would normally do to preserve his data.  As long as those downloaded file aren't automatically deleted after installation (which DIM will do if you neglect to clear that checkbox).  I have yet to find an equivalent option in DAZ Connect, but come on, give me a break; I'm still exploring here....

    Anyway, when it comes to encrypted content, here's the question: when DAZ Connect downloads and installs content, does it also download that 'offline authorization file', which, I am assuming, contains a decryption key that DAZ Connect uses to decrypt the downloaded file?  Does that authorization file follow the download to the download directory?  In other words, will I be able to do an offline re-install of content that DAZ Connect has installed previously, or will I have to go online, and re-install everything through DAZ Connect?  And if that authorization file does not follow the content file, then whose what am I going to have to kiss to get another decryption key, to allow me to do an offline recovery?

  • FixmypcmikeFixmypcmike Posts: 17,301

    Merged with the main thread on encryption.

  • Hello:

    I really should have taken part in the latest beta, if only to voice my concerns about UI visibility and the new Connect feature.  Well now there just seems to be no nice way to say it.  I'm just gonna have to be DAZ's newest rash.  You're welcome!  wink

    First of all, "Connect" is DRM.  I'm not saying it's a bad thing.  The term has been misused.  If all this is (ostensibly) being done on behalf of the PAs, then it really is "Digital Rights Management."  I'm good with that, so let's call it what it is and not go to the ends of the Earth to sanitize our words. 

    By the way, I do understand the desire to protect the intellectual property and physical work of the PAs.  I have no problem with this, and in fact I support it wholeheartedly.  Because when it comes down to it, the PAs are the lifeblood of the DAZ ecosystem.  Without the imagination and willingness of the PAs to bring successful, working products to this marketplace, DAZ would just be a pretty but empty red-brick building in Utah and Victoria and Michael would be sitting in the unemployment line.  In their skivvies, 'cause there would be no clothing for them to wear.

    I also think it's high time DAZ fixed the messy content categorization database.  I've downloaded and installed DS 4.9 and I look forward to seeing how well that works for me.  If content organization/categorization has indeed been improved, I'll forgive a lot.  Okay, but I can't forgive small font sizes that can't be changed by the end-user; THAT is still unforgivable in 2016.

    But all is not necessarily champagne, chocolate, and roses.  Here are my concerns about the new content connect feature.  Oh, by the way, "you don't have to use Connect" is an empty argument to me.  This new feature is moving very quickly and let's face it:  It's going to eventually replace DIM and manual installation methods.  Really, that is baked in.  Why else would DAZ spend so much development and marketing labor to make this happen?  For that reason, we need to talk about this and we need to talk about it NOW, even if some of us plan to avoid Connect for the time being.

    1.  I share Ken Obanion's worry about crypto keys on my hard drive and how that may complicate my own personal disaster recovery strategy.  Based on my reading of the FAQ and the DAZ_ postings, it sounds like it "should not" punish legitimate users.  But it's healthy to be suspicious of new DRM strategies, so I am.  We'll see.

    2.  Along those same lines, I am concerned about all the different ways a person can upgrade to a new computer.  I basically use the aforementioned disaster recovery "recovery" procedures (doing a "redeploy" or "bare metal restore" from backups onto the new system) to move my stuff; rarely needing to reinstall Windows on a new computer.  I'm still not so sure that this won't break the new DRM.  But I'll reserve my judgment for now, and we'll see.

    3.  I don't like the fact that DIM functions are being moved into DS because it combines two unlike functions in potentially awkward and hard-to manage ways.  It just overcomplicates DAZ Studio from a system design, logic, and programming perspective. 

    And this brings up a serious management concern for me:  Aren't we always being told that the DAZ development teams are small and don't have time to do this or that?  They supposedly don't even have time to bring Hexagon, Bryce, or Carrara into the 21st century.  Carrara; the main competitor to Blender and other "do it all" software!  So to make it all better, we've built a big complicated mousetrap in Studio?  Is DAZ hiring more developers?

    4.  Disruption of current practices.  As an end-user, I eventually found a way to use DIM to the most efficient effect.  I have two computers and have devised a method to "sneakernet" a download hard drive from one system to the other and back again.  It's a reliable way to sync both systems with each other.  This ensures a few things for me:  A) both systems are in sync with each other and I will never be stopped by an asset missing on either system at the most inopportune moment.  B) ensures that I have on hand another backup media type for some emergency situations.  C)  I can download stuff to either system, but only have to download to ONE system, then later sync the two systems at a time of my choosing.  The sync is faster than downloading and goes both ways, so I never have to worry about what got downloaded to either system; eventually they will all be synced to a common state.

    I don't think the content connect feature will let me continue with that strategy; and I think the new "feature" may actually make it worse in the long run.  I'm also concerned that the connect process will make me download and install one thing at a time; and do it once for each computer that I use.  Ugh; that would be a more tedious way of doing things, especially on days I've bought a couple of bundles, each containing several component products.  Furthermore, Connect's so-called benefit of only downloading "changed components" is really a non-benefit for me, because downloading my content has never really been a pain, and has never been on my list of "must fix" things (like, ahem; adjustable font sizes).

    My concerns may be premature.  Now that I have 4.9, I'll get into the details and see how it works in practice.

    I never did get access to the 3 freebie "connect" items when I made my latest purchase, which included Gia.  I just didn't know it was available, so I don't know what to do next.  Connect wasn't rushed.  It's been in the pipeline for several months and I've seen the beta threads as proof of that.  But still, some information has not made its way to all end-users.  Again, the result of a complex change being made to the product.

    One of my favorite CEOs, Herman Cain, has a great saying:  "Stop workin' on the wrong things!"  I sure hope that DAZ has not made the mistake of working on the wrong things, and I sincerely hope that everything works out okay for the PAs, DAZ, and most importantly, for all legitimate DAZ end-users.  Good luck to us all.

  • SimonJMSimonJM Posts: 5,034
    ...
    My understanding is that DAZ Connect downloads everything to a specified directory on the local hard drive.  Okay, so far, so good; I can back up that directory, archive its contents, and otherwise do what any self-respecting paranoid would normally do to preserve his data.  As long as those downloaded file aren't automatically deleted after installation (which DIM will do if you neglect to clear that checkbox).  I have yet to find an equivalent option in DAZ Connect, but come on, give me a break; I'm still exploring here.
    ...

    Having asked pretty much exactly that a while back I was told that, in effect, there ARE no install files; what is downloaded goes straight into your content, so once it's there that's it.

  • DAZ_RawbDAZ_Rawb Posts: 551

    Hello:

    I really should have taken part in the latest beta, if only to voice my concerns about UI visibility and the new Connect feature.  Well now there just seems to be no nice way to say it.  I'm just gonna have to be DAZ's newest rash.  You're welcome!  wink

    First of all, "Connect" is DRM.  I'm not saying it's a bad thing.  The term has been misused.  If all this is (ostensibly) being done on behalf of the PAs, then it really is "Digital Rights Management."  I'm good with that, so let's call it what it is and not go to the ends of the Earth to sanitize our words. 

    I'm going to disagree with you here. Daz Connect isn't "Digital Rights Management", it really is an improved version of DIM built in to Daz Studio. The encryption portion of Daz Connect could be defined as DRM but you may see me call it "encryption" instead because there are a lot of restrictions in DRM that the encryption parts of Daz Connect don't restrict, such as:

    - Unlimited number of installs

    - Multiple simultaneous connections

    - Able to work offline

    - Can install offline

    - No expiration date on a machine authorization

    - Unlimited number of machine authorizations

    - No need to un-authenticate different machines

    - Content authorizations do not expire

    - Export is fully functional

    - No restrictions of third party content

    So, that huge list of things that Daz Connect encryption doesn't do that DRM systems typically do is why I personally refer to the product encryption components of Daz Connect just as "encryption" instead of DRM. 

    By the way, I do understand the desire to protect the intellectual property and physical work of the PAs.  I have no problem with this, and in fact I support it wholeheartedly.  Because when it comes down to it, the PAs are the lifeblood of the DAZ ecosystem.  Without the imagination and willingness of the PAs to bring successful, working products to this marketplace, DAZ would just be a pretty but empty red-brick building in Utah and Victoria and Michael would be sitting in the unemployment line.  In their skivvies, 'cause there would be no clothing for them to wear.

    I also think it's high time DAZ fixed the messy content categorization database.  I've downloaded and installed DS 4.9 and I look forward to seeing how well that works for me.  If content organization/categorization has indeed been improved, I'll forgive a lot.  Okay, but I can't forgive small font sizes that can't be changed by the end-user; THAT is still unforgivable in 2016.

    But all is not necessarily champagne, chocolate, and roses.  Here are my concerns about the new content connect feature.  Oh, by the way, "you don't have to use Connect" is an empty argument to me.  This new feature is moving very quickly and let's face it:  It's going to eventually replace DIM and manual installation methods.  Really, that is baked in.  Why else would DAZ spend so much development and marketing labor to make this happen?  For that reason, we need to talk about this and we need to talk about it NOW, even if some of us plan to avoid Connect for the time being.

    1.  I share Ken Obanion's worry about crypto keys on my hard drive and how that may complicate my own personal disaster recovery strategy.  Based on my reading of the FAQ and the DAZ_ postings, it sounds like it "should not" punish legitimate users.  But it's healthy to be suspicious of new DRM strategies, so I am.  We'll see.

    2.  Along those same lines, I am concerned about all the different ways a person can upgrade to a new computer.  I basically use the aforementioned disaster recovery "recovery" procedures (doing a "redeploy" or "bare metal restore" from backups onto the new system) to move my stuff; rarely needing to reinstall Windows on a new computer.  I'm still not so sure that this won't break the new DRM.  But I'll reserve my judgment for now, and we'll see.

    If you are to backup and restore to a new machine then all you need to do in order to access encrypted content is to connect a single time to get your keys on to the new machine. If you don't have any encrypted content then there will be a prompt to reconnect, but if you cancel it you can still load all of your non encrypted content.

    3.  I don't like the fact that DIM functions are being moved into DS because it combines two unlike functions in potentially awkward and hard-to manage ways.  It just overcomplicates DAZ Studio from a system design, logic, and programming perspective. 

    Going over the experience for new users it seemed that DIM was an awkward and hard to manage system that overcomplicated things for the users. Sometimes the software has to get smarter so the users don't have to.

    And this brings up a serious management concern for me:  Aren't we always being told that the DAZ development teams are small and don't have time to do this or that?  They supposedly don't even have time to bring Hexagon, Bryce, or Carrara into the 21st century.  Carrara; the main competitor to Blender and other "do it all" software!  So to make it all better, we've built a big complicated mousetrap in Studio?  Is DAZ hiring more developers?

    Do you know anyone that is looking?

    4.  Disruption of current practices.  As an end-user, I eventually found a way to use DIM to the most efficient effect.  I have two computers and have devised a method to "sneakernet" a download hard drive from one system to the other and back again.  It's a reliable way to sync both systems with each other.  This ensures a few things for me:  A) both systems are in sync with each other and I will never be stopped by an asset missing on either system at the most inopportune moment.  B) ensures that I have on hand another backup media type for some emergency situations.  C)  I can download stuff to either system, but only have to download to ONE system, then later sync the two systems at a time of my choosing.  The sync is faster than downloading and goes both ways, so I never have to worry about what got downloaded to either system; eventually they will all be synced to a common state.

    I don't think the content connect feature will let me continue with that strategy; and I think the new "feature" may actually make it worse in the long run.  I'm also concerned that the connect process will make me download and install one thing at a time; and do it once for each computer that I use.  Ugh; that would be a more tedious way of doing things, especially on days I've bought a couple of bundles, each containing several component products.  Furthermore, Connect's so-called benefit of only downloading "changed components" is really a non-benefit for me, because downloading my content has never really been a pain, and has never been on my list of "must fix" things (like, ahem; adjustable font sizes).

    If you share the files on a network filesystem, or having some other system sync the contents of the data/cloud directory Daz Connect will reuse you existing downloaded files when things are installed instead of grabbing them again from the servers. This also works for encrypted files as long as both machines are logged in to the same Daz account.

    My concerns may be premature.  Now that I have 4.9, I'll get into the details and see how it works in practice.

    I never did get access to the 3 freebie "connect" items when I made my latest purchase, which included Gia.  I just didn't know it was available, so I don't know what to do next.  Connect wasn't rushed.  It's been in the pipeline for several months and I've seen the beta threads as proof of that.  But still, some information has not made its way to all end-users.  Again, the result of a complex change being made to the product.

    One of my favorite CEOs, Herman Cain, has a great saying:  "Stop workin' on the wrong things!"  I sure hope that DAZ has not made the mistake of working on the wrong things, and I sincerely hope that everything works out okay for the PAs, DAZ, and most importantly, for all legitimate DAZ end-users.  Good luck to us all.

    Thank you, and I know that the feature you are really looking for didn't make it in to this release but Daz Connect isn't the answer to a question nobody was asking. For users that have been with us for a while and understand the details and steps of installing content this might not seem like something that is that useful but new users have continually been struggling with this problem and this should lower the barrier of entry so more people are able to create the art like the rest of you already can.

  • DAZ_RawbDAZ_Rawb Posts: 551

    Okay, I have just installed DAZ Studio 4.9 on one of my computers (it isn't going onto my MAIN 3D system till it has been thoroughly worked over and has had the absolute crap beat out of it), and I had Hell's own time getting it to recognize my content libraries -- I maintain two; one on a network share, and another on an external drive that goes "walkabout" with whatever machine I happen to be toting around with me on any given day.  I suspect that the basic problem is that the external drive is seriously out-of-sync, but I can fix that.  But that isn't my issue....

    My concern basically involves disaster recovery.  Let's say, for example, that a disk containing my content does the old 'Johnny Storm' schtick -- 'Flame on, torch!' and all that -- and ends up as little more than a heavily-charred paperweight.  If I have a lot of encrypted content, how difficult will it be to recover from that?

    We did review the restore from backup case when going through the design of Daz Connect so I came prepared for this test.

    My understanding is that DAZ Connect downloads everything to a specified directory on the local hard drive.  Okay, so far, so good; I can back up that directory, archive its contents, and otherwise do what any self-respecting paranoid would normally do to preserve his data.  As long as those downloaded file aren't automatically deleted after installation (which DIM will do if you neglect to clear that checkbox).  I have yet to find an equivalent option in DAZ Connect, but come on, give me a break; I'm still exploring here....

    Two options for backups of encrypted only content:

    1. Backup the downloaded content. Taking a copy of the data/cloud directory and restoring it on to a new drive or machine is just fine. Nothing but updates will have to be downloaded but you will have to tell Daz Connect to "reinstall" your previously installed products to the the DB in sync with reality (or you could back up the database as well). I am told that this "reinstall" product could be scripted quite easily.

    2. Go with the offline packages and authorization files. Manually download the offline packages and authorizations from your product library and copy them before you put them in the data/cloud/install directory. When it comes time to restore from backup just login once on the "new" computer and copy your offline packages and authorizations into your new data/cloud/install directory and reinstall everything that way. After that you can update any products that are out of date to fetch the latest versions of any files you need.

    Anyway, when it comes to encrypted content, here's the question: when DAZ Connect downloads and installs content, does it also download that 'offline authorization file', which, I am assuming, contains a decryption key that DAZ Connect uses to decrypt the downloaded file?  Does that authorization file follow the download to the download directory?  In other words, will I be able to do an offline re-install of content that DAZ Connect has installed previously, or will I have to go online, and re-install everything through DAZ Connect?  And if that authorization file does not follow the content file, then whose what am I going to have to kiss to get another decryption key, to allow me to do an offline recovery?

    For online installs there isn't an "authorization file" because all of the authorization is handled direcly by the application. Additionally there isn't a zip/package downloaded by the application because files are downloaded from the CDN individually, so they are "installed" directly after they are downloaded.

     

    The offline package and authorization file can be used on multiple machines as long as each of those machines have connected at least once on your account. And while I am a bit flattered about the offer for a kiss you can get as many authorization files as you want without ever having to get your lips near me or any other Daz employee.

  • I've rarely ever felt the need to post, though I do read the forums from time to time, but I feel as though I need to have my voice heard this time.  I buy quite a bit of content from the store and am very disappointed in this DRM scheme that's been implemented.  There's already a new product that I would love to buy that's come out that is Connect only, one that I will unfortunately not be purchasing.  I just can't support DRM of any form.  I feel as though I'm a pretty loyal customer to DAZ, but this is a direction that I'm not happy with.  And if, as I fear it will eventually, all of the products end up becoming exclusive to Connect, I will have to take my business elsewhere.  My PC+ will be expiring sometime next month, but I'm not sure if I'll be resubbing after this.

    I hope that this decision is rethought, though it feels as though the ink is already dried and finalized.

    me too i am very p****ed of at this time for ther moment i consider keeping my platinum but i will spend only enough money to use my vouchers and also i will pay cloe attention to what i buy i dont want this daz connect i want to be able to install what when and where that said wish you a nice day!!!

     

  • Gr00vus said:

    To DAZ and the PAs - I will never buy any 3D art related product from this store or anywhere else that is encumbered with digital restriction managment - what you're calling encryption here. If platinum club products are only offered with digital restriction management, I will cancel my platinum club membership.

    i am entirely with you is that so for platinum??then bye bye.

  • p i guess i return to buy more at rdna and rr.ye

    Kerya said:

    Wellllll - if you bought PoserPro 11 - you are in the same boat as with encrypted DRM content. Which is why I don't buy it ... even when I do like DazStudio AND Poser ...

    SmithMicro assured a poison pill against the "internet connection of the computer your Poser is installed on or deactivation of software" in case they are going down the drain too. Same scenario as yours.

    I don't buy either - neither DRM content nor Poser.

    Well... the matter of activating the main software is one thing. There's that in Poser, as well as in DS. The fact remains that whe I buy stuff  at RDNA or Renderosity, I don't have to go through a DRM to make it work in Poser. Having to buy and install even a damn pair of sneakers through DazConnect and being forced to install it where you're told to "because it delivers a better experience" is bullshit and we all know it. Whenever a company wants to twist your arm into sucking up the DRM poison, they tell you that there'll be an experience improvement. It's just as if you got kidnapped by a weirdo, locked up into a cellar and had a steel collar fit around your neck with a chain to the wall, then to hear said weirdo tell you "On the bright side, I chose nice pastel colors for the walls and look! your collar has a cute little bell on it and I engraved it with your name!" It can happen, but despite what the weirdo says, you're unlikely to *enjoy* that "experience to its fullest.

     

     

  • CybernikesCybernikes Posts: 9
    edited January 2016

    I posted exactly once since 2007 though I have bought thousands in products here.This is my second, (I see the first was moved, though I had thought it erased) I will not use connect, and I will buy nothing further from vendors who make products which are connect only. You lost money tonight Daz, my cart is empty because of connect. You may not care, but these vendors have a right to know about the potential for lost revenue.

    Post edited by Cybernikes on
  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,927
    edited January 2016

    RawB said: Going over the experience for new users it seemed that DIM was an awkward and hard to manage system that overcomplicated things for the users. Sometimes the software has to get smarter so the users don't have to


     
    I always found DIM extremely easy to use and I'm very surprised by this statement on a number of levels. As a teacher I find the idea of dumbing things down like this offensive as it implies people should be kept in the dark rather than sharing the knowledge. Just because a user doesn't understand a system doesn't mean that they are not smart or that the system is too difficult. It simply means that they haven't had the system explained to them. Most of your current vendors would have learnt the skills they did by being exposed to them gradually starting with how to install things. People have to start somewhere. This may well rebound on you in the long term if your users aren't given the opportunities to develop skills where will you new vendors come from? Surely rather than go to  the expense of revamping a system it would be more effective to provide tutorials for people to learn. Speaking as someone who used to help new users on this site I would still prefer to educate people to use a system than to dumb the system down. People live up to your expectations of them just like kids in a school environment...
     

     

    Post edited by Pendraia on
  • lxlx Posts: 2,916
    Pendraia said:

    RawB said: Going over the experience for new users it seemed that DIM was an awkward and hard to manage system that overcomplicated things for the users. Sometimes the software has to get smarter so the users don't have to


     
    I always found DIM extremely easy to use and I'm very surprised by this statement on a number of levels. As a teacher I find the idea of dumbing things down like this offensive as it implies people should be kept in the dark rather than sharing the knowledge. Just because a user doesn't understand a system doesn't mean that they are not smart or that the system is too difficult. It simply means that they haven't had the system explained to them. Most of your current vendors would have learnt the skills they did by being exposed to them gradually starting with how to install things. People have to start somewhere. This may well rebound on you in the long term if your users aren't given the opportunities to develop skills where will you new vendors come from? Surely rather than go to  the expense of revamping a system it would be more effective to provide tutorials for people to learn. Speaking as someone who used to help new users on this site I would still prefer to educate people to use a system than to dumb the system down. People live up to your expectations of them just like kids in a school environment...
     

     

    Just want to quote this a thousand times, because I too thought DIM was extremely simple and intuitive, and I'm really sick of software dumbing things down and taking options away. And software not having a proper manual. Once again, the beginner's section of the Daz manual and tutorials are REALLY good. Then after day 1 it's a wasteland of silence, trial and error, and asking questions on forums for other customers to do the helping. I'd have preferred the money spent on Connect went on a user manual for the existing features, if that had ever been an option.

  • lx said:
    Pendraia said:

    RawB said: Going over the experience for new users it seemed that DIM was an awkward and hard to manage system that overcomplicated things for the users. Sometimes the software has to get smarter so the users don't have to


     
    I always found DIM extremely easy to use and I'm very surprised by this statement on a number of levels. As a teacher I find the idea of dumbing things down like this offensive as it implies people should be kept in the dark rather than sharing the knowledge. Just because a user doesn't understand a system doesn't mean that they are not smart or that the system is too difficult. It simply means that they haven't had the system explained to them. Most of your current vendors would have learnt the skills they did by being exposed to them gradually starting with how to install things. People have to start somewhere. This may well rebound on you in the long term if your users aren't given the opportunities to develop skills where will you new vendors come from? Surely rather than go to  the expense of revamping a system it would be more effective to provide tutorials for people to learn. Speaking as someone who used to help new users on this site I would still prefer to educate people to use a system than to dumb the system down. People live up to your expectations of them just like kids in a school environment...
     

     

    Just want to quote this a thousand times, because I too thought DIM was extremely simple and intuitive, and I'm really sick of software dumbing things down and taking options away. And software not having a proper manual. Once again, the beginner's section of the Daz manual and tutorials are REALLY good. Then after day 1 it's a wasteland of silence, trial and error, and asking questions on forums for other customers to do the helping. I'd have preferred the money spent on Connect went on a user manual for the existing features, if that had ever been an option.

    Being a mod, I can certainly tell you that the sheer number of times we have had to try and explain DIM is mind-numbing to say the least.  While I wholeheartedly agree with you that I, too, found DIM easy to use (especially as I use as intended), there was an overwhelming number of people that simply did not get it or wanted it, but their way. 

  • lxlx Posts: 2,916
    edited January 2016
    lx said:
    Pendraia said:

    RawB said: Going over the experience for new users it seemed that DIM was an awkward and hard to manage system that overcomplicated things for the users. Sometimes the software has to get smarter so the users don't have to


     
    I always found DIM extremely easy to use and I'm very surprised by this statement on a number of levels. As a teacher I find the idea of dumbing things down like this offensive as it implies people should be kept in the dark rather than sharing the knowledge. Just because a user doesn't understand a system doesn't mean that they are not smart or that the system is too difficult. It simply means that they haven't had the system explained to them. Most of your current vendors would have learnt the skills they did by being exposed to them gradually starting with how to install things. People have to start somewhere. This may well rebound on you in the long term if your users aren't given the opportunities to develop skills where will you new vendors come from? Surely rather than go to  the expense of revamping a system it would be more effective to provide tutorials for people to learn. Speaking as someone who used to help new users on this site I would still prefer to educate people to use a system than to dumb the system down. People live up to your expectations of them just like kids in a school environment...
     

     

    Just want to quote this a thousand times, because I too thought DIM was extremely simple and intuitive, and I'm really sick of software dumbing things down and taking options away. And software not having a proper manual. Once again, the beginner's section of the Daz manual and tutorials are REALLY good. Then after day 1 it's a wasteland of silence, trial and error, and asking questions on forums for other customers to do the helping. I'd have preferred the money spent on Connect went on a user manual for the existing features, if that had ever been an option.

    Being a mod, I can certainly tell you that the sheer number of times we have had to try and explain DIM is mind-numbing to say the least.  While I wholeheartedly agree with you that I, too, found DIM easy to use (especially as I use as intended), there was an overwhelming number of people that simply did not get it or wanted it, but their way. 

    But... but...

    Open your Product Library on the site (scary online connectivity ahhh) and then select what you bought. Then download it. Then go to where you downloaded the zip and unzip the contents into your Studio Library. Now make a text file and note down that you did these things. Congratulations, you're officially a human DIM!

    Then again half the questions I've seen asked in the past couple of days were answered in giant letters all over the store page. This is why I don't mod websites anymore. I applaud patient people like you so much.

    Post edited by lx on
  • Thank you Rawb, for your reply.  But I'm solidly with the others here.  Dim was not difficult to deal with, and indeed there's a lot of other software that uses a DIM-like mechanism for downloading purchased content and updates.

    Now, the content categorization?  Another animal entirely.  Nasty.  I hope it really has improved under DS 4.9.

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,927
    lx said:
    Pendraia said:

    RawB said: Going over the experience for new users it seemed that DIM was an awkward and hard to manage system that overcomplicated things for the users. Sometimes the software has to get smarter so the users don't have to


     
    I always found DIM extremely easy to use and I'm very surprised by this statement on a number of levels. As a teacher I find the idea of dumbing things down like this offensive as it implies people should be kept in the dark rather than sharing the knowledge. Just because a user doesn't understand a system doesn't mean that they are not smart or that the system is too difficult. It simply means that they haven't had the system explained to them. Most of your current vendors would have learnt the skills they did by being exposed to them gradually starting with how to install things. People have to start somewhere. This may well rebound on you in the long term if your users aren't given the opportunities to develop skills where will you new vendors come from? Surely rather than go to  the expense of revamping a system it would be more effective to provide tutorials for people to learn. Speaking as someone who used to help new users on this site I would still prefer to educate people to use a system than to dumb the system down. People live up to your expectations of them just like kids in a school environment...
     

     

    Just want to quote this a thousand times, because I too thought DIM was extremely simple and intuitive, and I'm really sick of software dumbing things down and taking options away. And software not having a proper manual. Once again, the beginner's section of the Daz manual and tutorials are REALLY good. Then after day 1 it's a wasteland of silence, trial and error, and asking questions on forums for other customers to do the helping. I'd have preferred the money spent on Connect went on a user manual for the existing features, if that had ever been an option.

    Being a mod, I can certainly tell you that the sheer number of times we have had to try and explain DIM is mind-numbing to say the least.  While I wholeheartedly agree with you that I, too, found DIM easy to use (especially as I use as intended), there was an overwhelming number of people that simply did not get it or wanted it, but their way. 

    Hi Chris, I can certainly understand that with this site being as busy as it is that there would be many times that you would need to explain or point people in the direction of a tutorial. As someone who was involved as a CV when the New users was originally set up I have been in the position of trying to help people here. However, dumbing down a system is a short term solution and will in the long run create more problems than it solves. Having tutorials in a variety of formats so that people can find the one that suits them best would help with this.  I think that maybe the important part of your sentence was the last bit an overwhelming number of people that simply did not get it or wanted it, but their way.  The critical bit is that bolded bit. Wanting it their way is not the same as not understanding...that's two different issues in that sentence. One is about a lack of understanding and the other is unwillingness to do it any way but their own. As a teacher I know all too well the frustration of dealing with people who want to do it their way,  changing the system is not going to change how these people react, though it will just change what they are reacting about. 

    I do recognise how difficult it is to mod or volunteer at a site like this...kudos to you  and all the other mods for doing it.

    Even easier LX is to click download and install...

     

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,927
    edited January 2016

    Thank you Rawb, for your reply.  But I'm solidly with the others here.  Dim was not difficult to deal with, and indeed there's a lot of other software that uses a DIM-like mechanism for downloading purchased content and updates.

    Now, the content categorization?  Another animal entirely.  Nasty.  I hope it really has improved under DS 4.9.

    I must admit to liking the content categorisation system...I know that many people don't use it but I find it allows me to set up within DS my own organisation. No need to worry if anything I shift will break something either. I did initially miss the ability to drop and drag but now once I've installed I just do a scan of new directories and get it to mark the new content. Go the daz or the poser sections to find the files right click, tell it where to create the category and to include sub folders...it's fairly straightforward and easy to do. I wish Poser 14 could do the same...

     

    Post edited by Pendraia on
  • lxlx Posts: 2,916
    Pendraia said:

    Thank you Rawb, for your reply.  But I'm solidly with the others here.  Dim was not difficult to deal with, and indeed there's a lot of other software that uses a DIM-like mechanism for downloading purchased content and updates.

    Now, the content categorization?  Another animal entirely.  Nasty.  I hope it really has improved under DS 4.9.

    I must admit to liking the content categorisation system...I know that many people don't use it but I find it allows me to set up within DS my own organisation. No need to worry if anything I shift will break something either. I did initially miss the ability to drop and drag but now once I've installed I just do a scan of new directories and get it to mark the new content. Go the daz or the poser sections to find the files right click, tell it where to create the category and to include sub folders...it's fairly straightforward and easy to do. I wish Poser 14 could do the same...

     

    I really like the Categorization system too, although I only ever discovered it completely by accident (It also took me ages to realise I could mass categorise folders instead of doing it one by one with that stupid resetting tree.)

    Dragging and dropping does work with it, though it can be super fiddly getting it to work properly since hovering a folder also opens it. With some additions to make it a bit friendlier it would be a much better system than users manually moving files and it offers user customisation unlike Smart Content. I really don't understand why it hasn't been developed into being the main way you view your Content Library if they were so concerned about users moving files, rather than building an entirely new system.

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,927
    lx said:
    Pendraia said:

     

    I really like the Categorization system too, although I only ever discovered it completely by accident (It also took me ages to realise I could mass categorise folders instead of doing it one by one with that stupid resetting tree.)

    Dragging and dropping does work with it, though it can be super fiddly getting it to work properly since hovering a folder also opens it. With some additions to make it a bit friendlier it would be a much better system than users manually moving files and it offers user customisation unlike Smart Content. I really don't understand why it hasn't been developed into being the main way you view your Content Library if they were so concerned about users moving files, rather than building an entirely new system.

    I must admit I discovered that it was easier to do it that way accidently also. I was categorising from the unassigned folder which is a pain but doing it from the daz and poser sections works a treat. Dragging and dropping doesn't merge a file if there is one with the same name already there though so I don't use it all that frequently. I also think it would have been a better way to go in terms of development.

     

  • Cris PalominoCris Palomino Posts: 4,833
    edited January 2016
    Pendraia said:
     I think that maybe the important part of your sentence was the last bit an overwhelming number of people that simply did not get it or wanted it, but their way.

    Though their not understanding DIM is why this creates problems for them in most cases.  I'd better stop, though, we're drifting away from topic.  :) 

    Post edited by Cris Palomino on
  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,927

    Good discussion though...and I understand your frustration with dealing with the sheer numbers of new users. : )

  • KLH22KLH22 Posts: 20

    I've been trying to follow all the discussion on the new DS4.9 and encrypted products. I have also read the sales stuff on the DAZ web site. But there are a number of issues that are not addressed or in the discussions on the forums.

    There are a lot of people  nervous about the new 4.9 version, and with good reason. This change is being done with very little information on how it will all work for the customer.

    With the old system (4.8 and the Daz Install Manager) my normal practice has been to download all product data using the Daz Install Manager and place them in a Separate directory. I then kept the files in this directory current (with any updates) and also backed-up on another drive (2 of them in fact). I have a large number of Daz products purchased from Daz over the years and I don't want all of it installed into Daz Studio all the time (it would take up far too much space). So I just uninstall and later re-install whatever I need.

    This process has worked well.

    Now we come to the DS4.9 version and encrypted products. I have the following critical questions.

    1. What is encrypted (exactly)? Is it still a ZIP file ?

    2. Does the Daz Install Manager download encrypted products too?

    3. Does the Daz Install Manager download encrypted products and overwrite previously downloaded un-encrypted versions ?

    4. If so will it overwrite (and effectively delete) unencrypted product ZIP files when products are migrated to the encrypted format ?

    If this is the case then the Daz Install Manager can no longer be trusted not to destroy a product that the customer has already bought and downloaded.

    5. If I install an encrypted product file into DS4.9 is the product downloaded by DS and stored somewhere on the local PC?.  And if I uninstall a product (to control disk space) and then reinstall it will DS4.9 need to download it again or is it just retrieved from a local storage directory on my PC ?

    6. I use daz products in POSER using the DSON. This work pretty good really. Will encrypted files still work in the same way and be usable in POSER ?

    If someone at daz could answer these question it may help calm people down.

    But at the end of the day, regardless of what ANYONE says, if the customers don't buy it - then DAZ won't do it. That's why the first encrypted products are free.,

     

    Thank you for any help with these questions

    KLH

     

  • KLH22 said:
    1. What is encrypted (exactly)? Is it still a ZIP file ?

    2. Does the Daz Install Manager download encrypted products too?

    3. Does the Daz Install Manager download encrypted products and overwrite previously downloaded un-encrypted versions ?

    4. If so will it overwrite (and effectively delete) unencrypted product ZIP files when products are migrated to the encrypted format ?

    If this is the case then the Daz Install Manager can no longer be trusted not to destroy a product that the customer has already bought and downloaded.

    5. If I install an encrypted product file into DS4.9 is the product downloaded by DS and stored somewhere on the local PC?.  And if I uninstall a product (to control disk space) and then reinstall it will DS4.9 need to download it again or is it just retrieved from a local storage directory on my PC ?

    6. I use daz products in POSER using the DSON. This work pretty good really. Will encrypted files still work in the same way and be usable in POSER ?

    1. if you download in DS the filse are sent one-by-one, they are compressed and then encrypted. If you download the offline packages you get a big sep file (presumably the same for every user, some kind of encrypted archive I believe) and the sea key file which is unique to you.

    2. No

    3. No - DIM products will not be encrytped, even if isntalled via Connect (this wasn't true of the first beta but is true now).

    4. No, and in fact the DIM installed files will not be overwritten at all - but 4.9 will use Connect files in preference to DIM files.

    5. unless you download and store the offlien package then only the active content files are on your machine, if you uninstall those are deleted and would need to be redownloaded.

    6. No, at least for now only DS supports Connect.

  • lx and Pendraia:  In your comments about liking categorization, are you referring to the new one in DS 4.9?  That was a little fuzzy to me.

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