Genesis 8.1 / Victoria 8.1

Matt_Castle

SickleYield said:

but the dhdm file (that is, the HD morph data that goes along with the bone pose) will not work with G8.1 because their geometry is different.

I think you're mistaken; the two have identical topology and vertex order (I can join G8 and G8.1 shapes as shape keys in Blender without issue).

For another example, Genesis 8.1 Female with DaveYabbo's DA-15Y morph applied at Lvl 4 HD (which looks very different in non HD).

Unless there's something fundamentally different about expression HD components compared to shaping HD morphs, it seems like the HD components should load fine.

 

The Blurst of Times

dawnblade said:

Ok, thank you! So the new shader is specifically for Victoria 8.1?

No. I've applied it to Genesis 2, 3, and 8.

It's just a Shader.

Leana

dawnblade said:

ChangelingChick said:

dawnblade said:

Habulin Dati said:

Comparing G8 and G 8.1 (right) females without applying skin shaders and morphs. Looks the same. Why bother?

 

They do look identical. When you say no skin shaders, doesn't 8.1 load with the new PBR shader? I'm not at my computer to try it myself.

No, Genesis 8.1 loads with the original skin and shaders on the new UVs. Victoria 8.1 uses the new shader. 

Ok, thank you! So the new shader is specifically for Victoria 8.1?

No, but Victoria 8.1 is the only character using it so far.

dawnblade

Thank you The Blurst of Times and Leana!

charles_2239525

Removing the 2 folders not only fixes expressions but removes the huge warning error issues and makes characters/scenes load in much less time. If you don't want to remove them that's your purgative. 

frankrblow

Has anyone noticed that things like Fit Control do not work on Genesis 8.1? I'm not going through every post of the last 42 pages to see what else doesn't work on this upgrade of Geneis, but I am going to uninstall Genesis 8.1 from my PC, since I don't really "need" a better face rig.

Mayby the vendors of scripts, etc will update their products to work with 8.1, but I would prefer that Daz3d concentrated on fixing everything that was broken before releasing a new bottomless money-pit generation.

Leonides02

ChangelingChick said:

Matt_Castle said:

My best guess so far is that the expressions have been disabled for simplicity and to avoid PAs needing to support both sets of expression controls with corrective morphs

And there is so much this :D  So far the pose and expression maker reaction has been this:

1. I'll do expressions for both.
2. Starts work on 8.1 Expressions.
3. Goes to make the same ones on 8.
4. Wow, these are so much better on 8.1
5. Nevermind the 8 ones. 8.1 is better. People won't want 8 after they use 8.1

We were also looking at making a converter, but there's no 1 for 1 exchange. There's no simple equivalency to be done. It also slows down loading and animation even more and that's something people have been griping about for a while.

Really? I'm sorry, but none of the expressions I've seen on 8.1. have been that much more impressive vs. G8.

Like, at all. 

 

plasma_ring

Wonderland said:

ChangelingChick said:

Matt_Castle said:

Petra said:

May I ask which data folders have been removed to make the expression work? 

I explain the details here - https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/6427116/#Comment_6427116 - but again, I stress that it's at the user's own risk.

My best guess so far is that the expressions have been disabled for simplicity and to avoid PAs needing to support both sets of expression controls with corrective morphs, but it is possible that they were disabled for a more considerable technical reason (which could be unintentionally goofy facial expressions, or something more serious compatibility wise).

I hadn't directly replied to you yet because, basically, you were right, and I didn't see a need, but I can answer the why some as best I understand it. But you had already mentioned the why yourself-- speed.

Another issue is that not all expressions are the same. If you remove those folders and apply the expressions you have to G8.1, it will not necessarily be the same expressions as on G8. The older expressions will still drive the new expressions controls in most cases which are not identical. In particular I've noticed the eye area being different. They could come up identical, but there's no guarantee of that. 

Matt_Castle said:

My best guess so far is that the expressions have been disabled for simplicity and to avoid PAs needing to support both sets of expression controls with corrective morphs

And there is so much this :D  So far the pose and expression maker reaction has been this:

1. I'll do expressions for both.
2. Starts work on 8.1 Expressions.
3. Goes to make the same ones on 8.
4. Wow, these are so much better on 8.1
5. Nevermind the 8 ones. 8.1 is better. People won't want 8 after they use 8.1

We were also looking at making a converter, but there's no 1 for 1 exchange. There's no simple equivalency to be done. It also slows down loading and animation even more and that's something people have been griping about for a while.

Well, since all my expressions do work I have no intention of upgrading if there’s a fix to remove them. I don’t do animation and I never use expressions at full value and like to create my own using small amounts of others. If the expressions were taken away, I would just never use any G8.1 content or buy any future content for it. So I think it’s a good thing that lets us use all our expressions that we have paid for.., 

I can sort of understand why they would make the decision to disable them for the sake of simplicity, but it seems like this might have been one of the big sticking points for people in deciding to hold off on engaging with 8.1 altogether to make sure they wouldn't lose anything in the long run. I don't know if it would have been better, but I'm curious about what the reaction might have been if they'd just said "8.1's face works differently, so expressions designed for Genesis 8 may not look the same on 8.1." 

Dialed expressions are pretty hit-or-miss for me from character to character as it is, and a smile that looks fine on one shape can turn into a weird grimace if I dial another character in. I hope they leave this fix alone for those of us who are cool with the discrepancies. 

Leonides02

plasma_ring said:

I can sort of understand why they would make the decision to disable them for the sake of simplicity, but it seems like this might have been one of the big sticking points for people in deciding to hold off on engaging with 8.1 altogether to make sure they wouldn't lose anything in the long run. I don't know if it would have been better, but I'm curious about what the reaction might have been if they'd just said "8.1's face works differently, so expressions designed for Genesis 8 may not look the same on 8.1." 

Dialed expressions are pretty hit-or-miss for me from character to character as it is, and a smile that looks fine on one shape can turn into a weird grimace if I dial another character in. I hope they leave this fix alone for those of us who are cool with the discrepancies. 

Well said.

And there is really almost no different in the quality of the expressions between the two, especially if you have Autoface Enhancer.

Visuimag

Eh, I feel like the out-of-the-box smiles and mouth expressions are quite a bit better. As are the blinking (thank goodness) and squinting (both of which look noticeably more natural on 8.1). Genesis 3-to-8 better? Not quite, but a definite upgrade. So yes @ChangelingChick - I'm with you.

SickleYield

Matt_Castle said:

SickleYield said:

but the dhdm file (that is, the HD morph data that goes along with the bone pose) will not work with G8.1 because their geometry is different.

I think you're mistaken; the two have identical topology and vertex order (I can join G8 and G8.1 shapes as shape keys in Blender without issue).

For another example, Genesis 8.1 Female with DaveYabbo's DA-15Y morph applied at Lvl 4 HD (which looks very different in non HD).

Unless there's something fundamentally different about expression HD components compared to shaping HD morphs, it seems like the HD components should load fine.

 

You're right, another PA clued me in via PM too.  Sorry for the error! 

Leonides02

Visuimag said:

Eh, I feel like the out-of-the-box smiles and mouth expressions are quite a bit better. As are the blinking (thank goodness) and squinting (both of which look noticeably more natural on 8.1). Genesis 3-to-8 better? Not quite, but a definite upgrade. So yes @ChangelingChick - I'm with you.

Who's using out-of-the-box anything, though?

The RED Crown

I don't want upgrade to G8.1 until i see How Artists support her .

Frinkky

Habulin Dati said:

Comparing G8 and G 8.1 (right) females without applying skin shaders and morphs. Looks the same. Why bother?

If you're using the same shader/textures, the same morphs and the same pose they will look the same. That's the point. 8.1 is supposed to be a drop-in replacement. You get to use the new FACS system, you get to use the new UV layout (if you use textures that are based on them) and that's it. 

Mark_e593e0a5

jbowler said:

ALLIEKATBLUE said:

ope I have AFE and none of my Z or EJ or P3D expressions work

They depend on the underlying G8 face morphs (brow etc) which don't exist in G8.1.  Most of the expressions I have tried have that problem, even though they still show up under the parameters pane pose controls.

I have some P3D expressions that work, but NONE of the Z expressions do. And I have quite some. At least, Studio should grey them out if they are not compatible with G8.1. In the current setup, its all try end (mostly) error. 

Soto

Habulin Dati said:

Comparing G8 and G 8.1 (right) females without applying skin shaders and morphs. Looks the same. Why bother?

 

They are the same mesh. If both have the same skin and no morphs, of course they look the same.

galien

Matt_Castle said:

Wonderland said:

I’m not sure why others can’t access this.

Because, if correctly installed, G8.1F has two folders (installed by the new Starter Essentials and the updated standard G8F expression pack) at...

data\DAZ 3D\Genesis 8\Female 8_1\Morphs\Daz 3D\Base Pose Head\
data\DAZ 3D\Genesis 8\Female 8_1\Morphs\Daz 3D\Expressions\

... that are full of dummy placeholder morphs that G8.1F is seemingly supposed to pick up in lieu of the standard G8F expression controls, hiding those controls on G8.1F.

Note that I'm not recommending removing these folders, as I'm not certain why this choice was made* - it could well be for valid technical reasons that they break something in someway, or it may simply be to avoid the confusion of two very similar sets of controls on the figure's face. (I'm personally currently using my G8.1F as a guinea pig to see what - if anything - breaks if the old controls are accessible, but as I'm not official Daz staff, this is not a suggestion to screw with your library installs)

However, this is the "why" of why most people cannot access the G8.0F controls on G8.1F - they are seemingly deliberately blocked, assuming your DS and library packages are all up-to-date and working correctly.

* I am avoiding cynical answers for why this was done - when G8.1F is a deliberate attempt at compatibility and continuity, I can't see Daz deliberately wanting to invalidate old expressions for commercial reasons. I can't imagine expression packs are one of their mega-profitable sellers.

I see an issue with the "Mouth Frown" and "Mouth Smile" controllers after deleting the files in these folders.

It looks as if the frown and smile morphs have been split into separate left and right morphs for the new FACS expression primitives and an aggregate parameter added (to dial in both at once) that has the same label as the old Genesis 8 expressions.  This is odd considering the care that has been taken elsewhere to ensure that the new FACS primitives have different labels from the old expressions.

 

Matt_Castle

galien said:.

I see an issue with the "Mouth Frown" and "Mouth Smile" controllers after deleting the files in these folders.

I'll take a look to see what the problem is. It may be that an additional controller can be added to toggle which of the 8.0 or 8.1 morphs is being driven, and thus resolve the issue.

Chumly

Whew!
I've read every post in this thread...

I feel like I need to treat myself to some chocolate or something

The RED Crown

Chumly said:

Whew!
I've read every post in this thread...

I feel like I need to treat myself to some chocolate or something

Choose Popcorn , it is Good for endure headaches . 

Petra

The RED Crown said:

I don't want upgrade to G8.1 until i see How Artists support her .

Well,G8.1, is free so you do not lose anything and can play around with G8.1:)  

The RED Crown

Petra said:

The RED Crown said:

I don't want upgrade to G8.1 until i see How Artists support her .

Well,G8.1, so you do not lose anything and can play around with G8.1:)  

what do you think Petra (G8)

 

ALLIEKATBLUE

Here is my first try at using the new shader on a G8 skin.  This is Modesta.  Not too bad except the eyes need something

galien

Matt_Castle said:

galien said:.

I see an issue with the "Mouth Frown" and "Mouth Smile" controllers after deleting the files in these folders.

I'll take a look to see what the problem is. It may be that an additional controller can be added to toggle which of the 8.0 or 8.1 morphs is being driven, and thus resolve the issue.

That's an interesting idea.

I've taken the simpler approach of altering the labels in "facs_ctrl_MouthFrown.dsf" and "facs_ctrl_MouthSmile.dsf".  I'll test this for a bit to see if there are any issues.

 

Visuimag

Leonides02 said:

Visuimag said:

Eh, I feel like the out-of-the-box smiles and mouth expressions are quite a bit better. As are the blinking (thank goodness) and squinting (both of which look noticeably more natural on 8.1). Genesis 3-to-8 better? Not quite, but a definite upgrade. So yes @ChangelingChick - I'm with you.

Who's using out-of-the-box anything, though?

Uh, why I am, in fact. 

One 8.1 expression applied to pull that off. 

AllenArt

Petra said:

AllenArt said:

Petra said:

My first render with Victoria 8.1.

I think she is very cute.

 

She is cute, but gahhhh....those tattoos. Urgh. 

Not too much of a fan either. The Skin is amazing though and I wish they had made a realistic-looking tattoo to match it. 

Agreed. Love your image tho ;) 

AllenArt

takezo_3001 said:

Here's a quick and dirty render to make the tattoo look more realistic using the makeup toggle, I may have gone a little nuts with the G-Blur, but you get the point!

I think in general they just need to be toned way down - I've never seen tattoos that vivid on anyone - not on something where the color is IN the skin rather than ON it. It just looks weird. 

dlm4001

I have been reading this thread for over an hour, so much information.  I am still not clear on one thing.  If I install the update, will I have ONLY 8.1? Or will I be able to choose 8.0 or 8.1 as the base?  I am not talking about compatibility.  I just want to know if I can load 8.0 for the my own characters and art that I have where facial expressions are part of those projects.  I would like to be able to choose which version to load in.  Can I do that?

ChangelingChick

dlm4001 said:

I have been reading this thread for over an hour, so much information.  I am still not clear on one thing.  If I install the update, will I have ONLY 8.1? Or will I be able to choose 8.0 or 8.1 as the base?  I am not talking about compatibility.  I just want to know if I can load 8.0 for the my own characters and art that I have where facial expressions are part of those projects.  I would like to be able to choose which version to load in.  Can I do that?

Yes, you can still use G8 with G8.1 installed. Choose as you will :D 

PerttiA

dlm4001 said:

I have been reading this thread for over an hour, so much information.  I am still not clear on one thing.  If I install the update, will I have ONLY 8.1? Or will I be able to choose 8.0 or 8.1 as the base?  I am not talking about compatibility.  I just want to know if I can load 8.0 for the my own characters and art that I have where facial expressions are part of those projects.  I would like to be able to choose which version to load in.  Can I do that?

G8.1 does not take away/remove anything.

You just get an additional female character (Genesis 8.1 Basic Female/Genesis 8.1 Female Dev Load)

All your G8.0 characters are safe and you can use G8.0 just as you have been using it.