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Where did my dark theme go ?
gone forever
Rumor, and I do mean Rumor has it. Daz will start 3D printing sunglasses to wear while viewing the forums. Not sure it's true or not yet.
Well ... I am one of those who also prefers dynamic clothing over conforming for most things and don't see that opinion changing any time soon. My lastet project using daz dynamic clothing (alll found here in the daz store) ... I did modify her underdress with a transmap to get the uneven hemline.
LOL ,There " The DnP sites " are driving my crasy with these none stop sites n forums upgrades.
At one time I herd of issues with using conforming cloths as dynamics ,cause if they where modeled with multiple meshes they might fall apart.
but if you could use any conforming cloths as dynamics ,would make every one happy.
I don't quite get what MM has to do with DAZ dynamics but I know since V5 ,DAZ has been making meshes like the high end app's.
All high end app's have dynamics cloths n hair.
& IRADIUM is really going after realism.If you really want realism ya need dynamics cloths n hair.
or talent with sculpting tools ;)
...well for me for it's thumbs down because of it's clunky cryptic keyboard driven UI.
And I agree with JaguarElla, Poser is much more cost effective than Daz's Optitex driven dynamics. I'd pay 50$ for a full cloth dynamics engine plugin that would let me apply dynamics to any clothing, not for one for a dynamic system that is limited only to specific clothing content created with Optitex.
Not so sure this is a valid analysis; my understanding is that anything can be made dynamic in poser (why I tried it, i just dont like poser) so the fact there are only five vendors isn't really an indication. What might be an indication, and its speculation on my part, is how popular poser still is; it is something that Daz doesn't really have.
I consider it worth the cash; hell i'd pay another fifty for the facility to use any clothes; I'd sooner not though Daz, thank you. :) It would actually mean I bought more clothes than I do. I bought tons originally, then discovered how much work, and at the same time got the hang of dynamics.
With dynamics, one gets slight variations in the shape on the same item, even if the poses are similar; other than the need for different shapes when the pose is different, then the shape is exactly the same. This takes effort to alter if that exactness is going to spoil the scene.
Daz should buy out this technology and make it Daz exclusive. This would be huge. It basically can make any item dynamic. If this ended up being Poser only, and it appears to be PC only as well (grumble), I'd have to go back to using Poser again, something I don't want to do. I like saving my money for content, not programs. But I keep bumping up against the dynamic problem in Daz. I want to do my own videos, but the clothing doesn't look right. Conforming is fine for some items, but skirts, coats and other items that should drape look very odd in animations when they don't. Plus the fact that you can have the hair be dynamic with this plugin... WOW.
Obviously it's not a 'click a script and voila' plugin, but the possibilities are amazing.
One thing I've figured out:
You can sort of make conforming outfits into dynamic ones by having them collide with dynamic outfits that are doing mostly what you want. So, for example, maybe a dynamic undershirt to drape down the front, then have a business suit that collides with it.
Take note Daz; something this good, I'd persevere with Poser if they get it and Daz doesn't; if Daz content, isn't easily imported into Poser, I wouldn't be buying Daz content that I couldn't use in Poser.
Wont change anything, DAZ have a contract with Optitex and if they wanted to/could get out of it I would have expected them to have done so by now.
Of course it will; it may change what software I use, it may change my buying habits.
You would think, if they had a contract with Optitex, that they would have to be an agreement as to how much product is provided for sale, too, though. If they don't provide that amount of potential product for sale, then the agreement would/could be nullified. So I doubt it's an agreement preventing Daz from creating an integram 'make anything dynamic' feature.
Personally I expect any dynamics to be added to be done via 3rd party add-ons rather than in house development of Studio. I remember reading in the forums that 2 different groups were working on something, but I think it was a year ago or so when those messages were posted, and still nothing has appeared so far.
...I still question the wisdom of going with a system that is priced way out of reach of, and impractical (as it has a minimum 10 workstation limit) for the customer base that Daz caters to. If they want to keep advancing their product to make it the best in the hobbyist./enthusiast market, they need an open ended dynamics system, whether integrated into the application or available as a plugin at a reasonable price.
Depends, DAZ haven't been their own bosses for several years now, who's to say those face less owners don't also own Optitex, sure would explain why DAZ haven't dropped them, and why they get upset every time the dynamic hacks are mentioned
Hate to burst your bubble, but individually none of us matter to DAZ.
Is dynamic clothing popular among Poser users? I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that Poser users usually use conforming clothing also.
Not anymore, according to vendors on Renderosity. In fact, there are only like 3-4 vendors there who deal in dynamic clothing.
Nowdays, dynamics in Poser are used primarily for long, flowing sleeves and dresses, esp, when one wants to render a character sitting or lying down. Dynamic Poser clothing was far more popular way back in the Poser4~5 era, when conforming clothes didn't have the level of detail or morphs that they do now-- when clothes had more of a “plastic suit” or even “snap on doll clothes” look. Today, dynamic Poser clothing is restricted to just a few vendors, such as Tipol, Arki, Frequency, Optitex, and Clark1984 or whatever his name is (I know I’m forgetting the vendor who makes Poser dynamics for G2F and G2M at Rendo, but I can’t remember his name.) From what I've seen, the falloff in dynamics popularity really gained momentum some time during the Generation 2 era with the really versatile Lourdes and Jim Morris outfits. Generation 3 signalled the end of McDynamic products with outfits like the Tunic, MCD, MFC, and Hooded Cloak. At that point, dynamics were gradually becoming unprofitable to all but a select few dedicated vendors with a great deal of skill, esp. with the huge selection of free dynamic clothing available across the net.
It’s also worth noting however that Arki’s outfits always consist either of a combination of conforming and dynamic items, or consist of hybrid clothes. Also interesting note, is that she includes Daz material presets for the dynamic pieces, as well, for the products she sells on RDNA-- Though, since most of her dynamic clothing pieces on RDNA do come with one or two style morphs, some of them still have some limited use in Daz Studio (in particular, the Black Lotus outer sleeves aren’t half-bad in Studio)
DAZ Poser are the only ones I've ever seen use conforming cloths dresses.
That is largely because these two programs focus on still renders rather than animation. With the professional 3D programs, the emphasis on animation vs. still renders is closer to 50-50. On top of that, your average Blender/3DSMax/C4D user (CUSTOMER, that is) probably possesses a higher level of skill than your average Poser/Daz user. The same does not necessarily apply to vendors of course, since some if not most of them DO use those programs to make some of their products.
Conforming also gives me more options for movement in cloaks and skirts that mere wind effects won't give, and if I need to run a few extra frames to settle out breaks/wrinkles, any multi-directional movement is lost.
You might like some of Arki’s outfits, in that case. Most of them have at least one style morph for the dynamic parts. Not all of them, though. The outer skirt for the Angeloi outfit, for example, only affects some draping vs. poofing, as well as a style morph for the length IIRC. The Black Lotus... accessories, I think... sleeves have some nice wind/draping morphs that actually make it functional in Daz Studio. I cannot speak for any of her other items, however, as I only own the V4/M4 Angeloi sets, the Black Lotus set, and the Desert Rose set. I either haven’t played with or don’t remember any dynamic pieces for the Desert Rose set (are there any? I can’t remember for sure)
More importantly, Spiritfoxy’s textures are breathtaking-- vivid, sparkly... A lot like some of RenaPD’s on Renderosity, but with more glitter.
"
Not so sure this is a valid analysis; my understanding is that anything can be made dynamic in poser (why I tried it, i just dont like poser) so the fact there are only five vendors isn't really an indication. What might be an indication, and its speculation on my part, is how popular poser still is; it is something that Daz doesn't really have."
Anything to a point. All the seams need to be welded and if the item has been created to have thickness there can be some issues where the extra folds make bad things happen. I've seen the "people can do thier own/do anything in poser" line of thinking for years as a reason why dynamics must be more popular than it seems. I just do not belive that is the case. First, there is really very little that people could not do for themselves if they wanted. Yes it would take effort and new skill learning but its doable as evidenced by the fact that the vast majority of content creators started out as users. Yet we still have a thriving market for nearly every aspect that goes into images. Learning and setting up lights is by far easier than setting up a complex dynamic outfit converted from a conforming outfit yet there are light sets released in every marketplace on a regular basis. If there really was strong use of dynamics by the poser comunity everyone would be hyper aware of it and there would be many more products supporting it. That is just the nature if this market. The fact that you see few products and few threads about it is a pretty clear indication that even if anything can be made dynamic and any one could model a dynamic dress it is still not simple enough to beat out conforming clothing for most users. Dynamic hair even less so as I don't think many people do their own and its been ages since I saw a dynamic hair product hit any of the stores.
"You would think, if they had a contract with Optitex, that they would have to be an agreement as to how much product is provided for sale, too, though"
Assuming it is a contract situation and not simply a third party product that was integrated with the program, I would guess there was a number for an initial group of clothing in the contract with an expectation that there would be an income that balanced out the time to continue to make clothing for the market. My guess is that Martin took over after that was completed. I think he did it as much as a hobby as anything else after retiring and selling his company than any other reason. He owned the suite from when he was running his pattern design company in New York so it wasn't a big leap for him to take over making the clothing. I believe he was also the person they suggested for students to contact to get tutoring in use of the program so making dynamics was not his only pull as far as his retirement time goes. No doubt had the products been more successful there would have been more made.
"Personally I expect any dynamics to be added to be done via 3rd party add-ons rather than in house development of Studio. I remember reading in the forums that 2 different groups were working on something, but I think it was a year ago or so when those messages were posted, and still nothing has appeared so far."
I believe your right. I've mentioned before that dynamics is a pretty rarified field code wise and it is being worked on in "free time" from real jobs and responsibilities.
"Depends, DAZ haven't been their own bosses for several years now, who's to say those face less owners don't also own Optitex, sure would explain why DAZ haven't dropped them, and why they get upset every time the dynamic hacks are mentioned"
Where on earth did you hear something like that.. I've personally met the folks that run DAZ and they are right there in the office in Utah on a daily basis. The original owners may have chosen to sell out the company to others several years ago but that the people they sold to are running the company on a day to day basis or even feel the need to be involved in it. Additionaly, even though the owners sold out many of the office staff are the same people who were there when that happened. Nor does ownership make them DAZ. DAZ is a group of people who work to bring products to the market place every single day. DAZ is the folks at the home office, it is the off site staff, and its a couple of hundred PA's all working together sucessfully.
As to them also owning Optitex.. pretty darn unlikely. I know that the company was sold or went to new management (not sure which) a couple of years ago when the top guy retired but I've seen nothing that ever indicated that it would be the people who also own DAZ. Since Optitex is a very successful company in the fashion industry it would be more than a drop in the bucket to obtain it and I am sure we would have heard something at some point about that sort of outlay if it were DAZ related. And were that the case then they would have far better leverage as far as advancing the Optitex system. As I have said before pretty much everyone associated with Studio is aware that there needs to be more realism available to the end user and that means something other than conforming hair and clothing so it is not as if DAZ isn't looking for ways to make that happen.
The issue with the "hacks" is not that they were dynamic..it is that they are hacks of DAZ code that people expected to be able to share freely. It is the same as a hack to a figure and expecting to be able to share the code from the figure simply because you have altered some of it. Why is there a problem with someone wanting to protect their intellectual property?
"Hate to burst your bubble, but individually none of us matter to DAZ."
You would be stunned by how aware they are of individuals around there. I know I was. Can they, or anyone, cater to every individual? Not so much. Nor is it possible to interact with a market this size as individuals. That would be asking to much of them as individuals. That does not mean they are oblivious to all of us as individuals.
Quite informational Khory, thanks for the time you took to write all that out..
Any place that sells to the public ,MickyD's,Walmart ,DAZ etc etc.
All say the customers are always right ,the customers provide are pay checks.
What contract with MM ? is there any actual statements from DAZ or are we guessing about all of this ?
If I was going to do dynamic cloth/hair animations .
Posers dynamic cloth/hair is the same as it was in Poser 5 ,is it not ?
Wasn't the last Poser 10 for games ? Games don't use dynamic cloth/hair ,do they.
I'd see what Blender can do ,but I'm thinking at one time Max,Maya even had cloth/hair Plugs.
So I'm thinking dynamic cloth/hair not the easiest trick to pull off.
I Miss my dark theme
I know my son has several games that must use dynamic clothing for the realism in movement if things like capes and shirt-tails have. I'm specifically thinking of Assasin's Creed and Barman Arkham series's.
Personally, instead of only a subset of funcitons, I'd much prefer a full physics engine.
That way you'd get both hard and softbody (with collisions), fluids and even particles. In a full physics, cloth is just a small part of what is available, and anything (or everything) would potentially be cloth.
Maybe not individually, but they do like our money. As far as the contract goes, if Daz sees something better that can make them some money, they will be happy to support it. It may seem crass to say so, but I know where I spend my money and it's one of the main reasons I use Daz Studio. With it being free and Poser still wanting money, I use Studio so I can spend my money on content and utilities like what VMW is creating. From what I can tell though, it's not going to work with Daz right now. He's using Python scripting. It's also PC only, something that always frustrates me. Due to my job and the industry I'm in, I use a Mac. I can't justify a PC because of that. I also don't like Mac only software either for this commuity. I'd rather we all share in the spoils.
I was reading about how that is done not long ago. Those drapes are pre done which is why you get some very odd clipping sometimes. So it is more of a dynamic component than real on the fly dynamics. On the fly dynamics would be risky (you know they go wrong sometimes) and really hard on peoples computers combined with all the other stuff going on.
Pretty much that yea.. If someone came to DAZ with a good, and afordable for the user, dynamic system I am pretty sure that they would be more than a little thrilled. Nor do I think they would turn away any subsiquent people who brought that sort of system. The trick is finding someone willing to do it.
This guy who's doing the VMW Python script for Poser is pretty cheap. If I remember correctly, he's only gonna charge 50 euros for the final product. He has a demo on Renderosity. Since I'm on a Mac, I can't try it. I own Poser, but it's a Mac serial number and I don't believe it will work on a PC version.
Totally with you on that. And since "Assasin's Creed" and "Barman Arkham" was mentioned, at least the latest titles were powerded by NVIDIA's PhysX engine, so it could be the obvious thing. They already got a license for their Iray, I don't get why they didn't just got that along, too. Maybe they have already, and they only don't say anything about. For most of us even Iradium came out of the blue, didn't it? If there was an announcement about, I didn't get the mail. DS 4.9 or 5.0 maybe? Although I'd never say no to 4.8.060.
To the topic: I really don't like Conforming Cloths better then Dynamic Cloths. I'd prefer dynamic, and also would prefer to have dynamic hair. The last dynamic thing was, if I remember right, the Fairy Queen: Dynamic Royal Dress. And that was more than 15 month ago. I tried iClone, just because of the dynamic stuff, but we couldn't get close friends, just the same as with Poser. I don't like their uninspired user interfaces. (The guys and gals at DAZ who designed that interface did a really great job). And iClone's basic renderer is IMO even a hundred times uglier than 3Delight.
Anyone seen the opening cinematics for Perfect Worlds "Newerwinter" MMO? Yeah, I'm totally aware of that they used a highend software like Maya, NukeX or even HoudiniFX to create that, but if I could achieve just only a fraction of the dynamic cloth and hair quality within Studio, I'd jump in a icosahedron. Regarding the bare optical quality, with the right shader setup you can even achieve something very similar in Iray, except the particle effects, naturally. Even there I'm almost sure they still use a mix of conforming and dynamic cloth.
Or tap into Bullet Physics, which they've already dabbled in for Carrara. Of course Carrara has had excellent dynamic strand hair forever, and they bullet physics softbodies have some limitations as it is implemented now and needs a bit of an update as far as turning back on sliders and controls that are disabled now, but even with the limitations if you know how it's very possible to get a decent dynamic cloth, such as this simple skirt I built and animated very quickly in Carrara a little while back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIAp6vysYZE
(edited to add link to video; I can't figure out how to post an animated gif in the new forum software)
...getting a "page not found" error when clicking on the thumbnail.
They spend Millions making high end games like Assasin's ,Arkham ,Gost etc etc
Wish we had there budget for are 3Ding.We could have all kinds of fun with millions ;)
But are 3D and games 3D is a bit different ,just about every thing you see in a game isn't done like we do.
game are a lot of tricks n illusions ,even the lighting.
but every year they get closer.
DAZ could leave Studio,Carrara,Bryce as seprate app's but also sell Studio,Carrara,Bryce all in one single app.
DAZ could call it the ultimate 3D APP !!! That would be cool.
Wouldn't hurt to ad better box modeling tools to Carrara.
Customers don't matter to any company as individuals; this is a known known, to parapharase Rumsfedlt.
However, the internet has changed that a little bit; it allows those with the same concern to express their agreement. It might ultimately not matter to Daz, and I can live with that, after all I use what suits me; if something comes along that suits me better I'll move on. Daz is currently riding the crest of a wave, a position once occupied by Poser.