Victoria 4 for Genesis 2 Female a post from the PA

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Comments

  • nakamuram002nakamuram002 Posts: 395
    edited December 1969

    It depends on the workflow; are you guys ever saving this stuff as new DUF figures to your library, or do you just Auto-Fit it each time newly?

    I save anything I expect to use often as a figure resource .duf, however if saving as a .duf is necessary for shoe conversion, then I will do so. Since we are trying to fit shoes, perhaps a pair of G2 stockings will work as the mannequin.

  • zigraphixzigraphix Posts: 2,813
    edited December 1969


    The only other route I could take at this point that I can see, is if I moved the toes forward anyway, and then add a bunch of corrective style things as morphs to the G2F foot that wouldn't affect the shape of the shoes, to put the toes back in the shoes.. That might confuse some users, so I'm not sure. I won't rule out that I might eventually do it as an update, but I don't have the time to pursue it immediately.

    Probably a much longer explanation than anyone wanted. :)

    I can never get enough of explanations. :)

    The mannikin idea (described after this quote from the thread) sounds good to me-- I save stuff I plan to use again after it's been converted, so whatever will give the best conversion is usually what I'll go with -- I tend to have projects that need the same outfit on the same character multiple times, e.g. different manga panels.

    Regarding the corrective style morph, though... one thing I've been wondering about is how to have clothes fit in a less clingy way, consistently across morphs. Suppose the shape of the chest was a spandex shape, with the bridge between the breasts, but then a "corrective style morph" is used to get to get the breasts back to the shape the user wants for the render, leaving a gap between the skin between the breasts and the clothes. Would something like that work? I'm just trying to imagine some way of telling clothes, "the body is here, but conform to this stretchy shape around the body."

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 9,390
    edited December 1969

    Hmm, a simplified manikin is an idea, but then the result would have to be Fit To the other figure. So you'd have to load in the manikin, Auto-fit to it.. then unfit it, delete the manikin, and then Fit To the real figure. I dunno. It depends on the workflow; are you guys ever saving this stuff as new DUF figures to your library, or do you just Auto-Fit it each time newly?

    The Skirt clone simply handles things a bit differently in the thigh etc, but it's still a clone shape on the actual figure.

    A low poly manikin for shoes would be different, from that, and would likely require a lot more documentation to go with it, about how to use it, and possibly how to save your results so you wouldn't have to go through a large process using it every time. It wouldn't be very straight-forward, generally speaking.

    I tried this AM to make Genesis 02 F into V4's exact shape by using your V4 shape but getting the hands and feet to match up a well as possible but that was no good at all. What you created seems to mostly work. While the shoes issue is slowly be resolved it's the skirts and other flowy types of clothing like long billowing sleeves & skirts that get no love. I'm sure there isn't an easy answer....

    Like the Sorceress "tunic" for V4, after conversion it still doesn't work very well. Took it into ZBrush to fix the mess and now working on the weight maps. Got the sleeves done but the bottom of the skirt is not good still.

  • MallenLaneMallenLane Posts: 129
    edited December 1969

    Well the reality is that an automated process is never going to be as good as human intervention until AI programs are sufficiently able to think as well as us ;)

    Unfortunately they won't need us probably at that point. (the AI)

  • nakamuram002nakamuram002 Posts: 395
    edited December 1969

    Well the reality is that an automated process is never going to be as good as human intervention until AI programs are sufficiently able to think as well as us ;)

    Unfortunately they won't need us probably at that point. (the AI)

    I take issue with that -- AI Progams are already better than MY human intervention!!!!!!!!

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 58,452
    edited December 1969

    zigraphix said:
    Regarding the corrective style morph, though... one thing I've been wondering about is how to have clothes fit in a less clingy way, consistently across morphs. Suppose the shape of the chest was a spandex shape, with the bridge between the breasts, but then a "corrective style morph" is used to get to get the breasts back to the shape the user wants for the render, leaving a gap between the skin between the breasts and the clothes. Would something like that work? I'm just trying to imagine some way of telling clothes, "the body is here, but conform to this stretchy shape around the body."

    That's pretty much how Clothing Cleavage Modifier for Genesis works - a morph set to AutoFollow to push the clothing out and an opposite morph not set to AutoFollow to pull the Genesis mesh back.

  • MallenLaneMallenLane Posts: 129
    edited June 2013

    Yes, and I did some internal testing with that kind of thing as well. The problem is: a fix of that type doesn't cross multiple combined shapes very well. It can often correct very well for the base shape, but add a different female form with distinctive modifications, and it can become less effective, or have flaws.

    It should, however, be inherently more effective, as that type of solution goes, on G2F than G1. This is because the distance to change is not as great from the base female form, to the new female's shape. So there is less margin for errors to happen in the distance between the two. Hopefully that make sense? This is the same reason why, although there is some breast vacuum on G2F still, yes, it's less so than on G1.

    The more room a morph has to travel from it's basic form to achieve it's shape, the more potential there is for flaws, because a more drastic change is happening, basically speaking.

    Post edited by MallenLane on
  • nakamuram002nakamuram002 Posts: 395
    edited December 1969

    zigraphix said:

    The mannikin idea (described after this quote from the thread) sounds good to me-- I save stuff I plan to use again after it's been converted, so whatever will give the best conversion is usually what I'll go with -- I tend to have projects that need the same outfit on the same character multiple times, e.g. different manga panels.

    Regarding the corrective style morph, though... one thing I've been wondering about is how to have clothes fit in a less clingy way, consistently across morphs. Suppose the shape of the chest was a spandex shape, with the bridge between the breasts, but then a "corrective style morph" is used to get to get the breasts back to the shape the user wants for the render, leaving a gap between the skin between the breasts and the clothes. Would something like that work? I'm just trying to imagine some way of telling clothes, "the body is here, but conform to this stretchy shape around the body."

    How about a "monobreast" mannequin (or set of, to varying degrees) to correct the cleavage problem?

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 5,837
    edited June 2013

    Hmmm, about the toes, I just realized that with toe control if you adjust the individual toes (length, direction) it alters the shape of the shoe. I will look into this and see if there isn't a foot morph I can make that can be created to get the shoes to fit better.

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • MallenLaneMallenLane Posts: 129
    edited December 1969

    If you don't want them to distort the shoe, you need to save them with the auto-follow flag off.

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 5,837
    edited December 1969

    Ye true. I was looking how the morphs can help for a better fit lol, and maybe build something off that info.

  • Jay_NOLAJay_NOLA Posts: 1,145
    edited December 1969

    Looking at the files only the DIM version got the updated version from 6-22-2013. The separate installers were not updated and still have the older version from 6-20-2013.

    Can anything be done to fix that, either update the standalone version or remove the standalone so one doesn't download and install and older version?

  • zigraphixzigraphix Posts: 2,813
    edited December 1969

    Yes, and I did some internal testing with that kind of thing as well. The problem is: a fix of that type doesn't cross multiple combined shapes very well. It can often correct very well for the base shape, but add a different female form with distinctive modifications, and it can become less effective, or have flaws.

    It should, however, be inherently more effective, as that type of solution goes, on G2F than G1. This is because the distance to change is not as great from the base female form, to the new female's shape. So there is less margin for errors to happen in the distance between the two. Hopefully that make sense? This is the same reason why, although there is some breast vacuum on G2F still, yes, it's less so than on G1.

    The more room a morph has to travel from it's basic form to achieve it's shape, the more potential there is for flaws, because a more drastic change is happening, basically speaking.

    Suppose that morph was part of the base figure, so character creators could customize it for each new shape? I guess this would be Genesis 3 or whatever, but I'm wondering if that would be a better starting place for the base figure-- shaped like clothes, and then detail added for particular characters, rather than the base mesh being shaped like a person with all the nooks and crannies. ;) Possibly a bit more work for morph creators, but the clothes would fit so much better....

  • MallenLaneMallenLane Posts: 129
    edited June 2013

    Heh, that approach has crossed my mind before, but it's an unpopular concept. And it also suffers other complications with shapes, just in the opposite direction; ones which possibly make it just as unworkable.

    Post edited by MallenLane on
  • MallenLaneMallenLane Posts: 129
    edited June 2013

    Jay_NOLA said:
    Looking at the files only the DIM version got the updated version from 6-22-2013. The separate installers were not updated and still have the older version from 6-20-2013.

    Can anything be done to fix that, either update the standalone version or remove the standalone so one doesn't download and install and older version?

    I was told the dates don't always change, so I guess you can't always go by that.

    edit: and told just now that they do have the right dates, (22nd) so...

    Post edited by MallenLane on
  • OctaveaOctavea Posts: 25
    edited December 1969

    loveit said:
    so how does work in poser ,we dont have auotofit? and how would you do it

    Here is the tutorial I made for converting clothes to Poser. Hope it makes sense to the Poser users. Follow the link.

    http://cybrea.deviantart.com/art/Poser-Users-V4-to-V6-Tutorial-380680619

  • Jay_NOLAJay_NOLA Posts: 1,145
    edited December 1969

    Just re-downloaded all the files to check the dates again only the DIM version has the update (22nd) the standalone file versions 16559_Victoria4forGenesis2Female_1.0_trx.exe & 16559_Victoria4forGenesis2Female_1.0_trx.zip have are from the previous update on the 20th and didn't get updated.

    Also interesting to note the Poser CF standalone versions isn't available in the downloads. Only a DIM version of the CF files is in the downloads.

    Jay_NOLA said:
    Looking at the files only the DIM version got the updated version from 6-22-2013. The separate installers were not updated and still have the older version from 6-20-2013.

    Can anything be done to fix that, either update the standalone version or remove the standalone so one doesn't download and install and older version?

    I was told the dates don't always change, so I guess you can't always go by that.

    edit: and told just now that they do have the right dates, (22nd) so...

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 4,511
    edited December 1969

    I'm guessing the silence suggests this is a no? But I'm not one to guess so I'll keep mentioning it...

    May I please request that we also get support for the genesis female 2 gens? They don't support the V4 uv's still :(
  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,988
    edited December 1969

    Jay_NOLA said:
    Just re-downloaded all the files to check the dates again only the DIM version has the update (22nd) the standalone file versions 16559_Victoria4forGenesis2Female_1.0_trx.exe & 16559_Victoria4forGenesis2Female_1.0_trx.zip have are from the previous update on the 20th and didn't get updated.

    Also interesting to note the Poser CF standalone versions isn't available in the downloads. Only a DIM version of the CF files is in the downloads.

    Jay_NOLA said:
    Looking at the files only the DIM version got the updated version from 6-22-2013. The separate installers were not updated and still have the older version from 6-20-2013.

    Can anything be done to fix that, either update the standalone version or remove the standalone so one doesn't download and install and older version?

    I was told the dates don't always change, so I guess you can't always go by that.

    edit: and told just now that they do have the right dates, (22nd) so...

    I noticed that the .exe wasn't updated. Wonder if that has anything to do with the disappearing .exe/mac zips of products in general with only the DIM zips being available. Could be they aren't planning to update any more .exe files?

  • nakamuram002nakamuram002 Posts: 395
    edited December 1969

    Jay_NOLA said:
    Just re-downloaded all the files to check the dates again only the DIM version has the update (22nd) the standalone file versions 16559_Victoria4forGenesis2Female_1.0_trx.exe & 16559_Victoria4forGenesis2Female_1.0_trx.zip have are from the previous update on the 20th and didn't get updated.

    Also interesting to note the Poser CF standalone versions isn't available in the downloads. Only a DIM version of the CF files is in the downloads.

    Jay_NOLA said:
    Looking at the files only the DIM version got the updated version from 6-22-2013. The separate installers were not updated and still have the older version from 6-20-2013.

    Can anything be done to fix that, either update the standalone version or remove the standalone so one doesn't download and install and older version?

    I was told the dates don't always change, so I guess you can't always go by that.

    edit: and told just now that they do have the right dates, (22nd) so...

    I just D/L'ed 16559_Victoria4forGenesis2Female_1.0_trx.zip. I see a Materials directory with some V4 UV set files which was not in the original D/L. I guess I must have the update.

  • Jay_NOLAJay_NOLA Posts: 1,145
    edited December 1969

    I downloaded all files when it was first released and when updates were announced.

    The date of the files in the first version was 6-18-2013.

    An update version came out on 6-20-2013 by going by the date in the files.

    Another updated version came out on 6-22-2013.

    Only the DIM version has the newer files from the 6-22-2013 update.

    The standalone installers were last updated on 6-20-2013.

    I just re-downloaded again to check and see if the standalone version gs did get updated after reading your post.


    Jay_NOLA said:
    Just re-downloaded all the files to check the dates again only the DIM version has the update (22nd) the standalone file versions 16559_Victoria4forGenesis2Female_1.0_trx.exe & 16559_Victoria4forGenesis2Female_1.0_trx.zip have are from the previous update on the 20th and didn't get updated.

    Also interesting to note the Poser CF standalone versions isn't available in the downloads. Only a DIM version of the CF files is in the downloads.

    Jay_NOLA said:
    Looking at the files only the DIM version got the updated version from 6-22-2013. The separate installers were not updated and still have the older version from 6-20-2013.

    Can anything be done to fix that, either update the standalone version or remove the standalone so one doesn't download and install and older version?

    I was told the dates don't always change, so I guess you can't always go by that.

    edit: and told just now that they do have the right dates, (22nd) so...

    I just D/L'ed 16559_Victoria4forGenesis2Female_1.0_trx.zip. I see a Materials directory with some V4 UV set files which was not in the original D/L. I guess I must have the update.

  • AdemnusAdemnus Posts: 744
    edited December 1969

    I'm glad you made this product and I bought it on the first day.

    That said, why on earth would it not have existed otherwise? 3 or more new textures released this month were for v4! I'm sort of shocked daz wouldnt rush to support this UV set on their own, as it still seems to be their bread and butter. There may be genesis 1 and 2, and v5 and 6 -but v4's and m4's echoes are felt throughout the products all the way down the line.

  • Dino GrampsDino Gramps Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I'm glad you made this product and I bought it on the first day.

    That said, why on earth would it not have existed otherwise? 3 or more new textures released this month were for v4! I'm sort of shocked daz wouldnt rush to support this UV set on their own, as it still seems to be their bread and butter. There may be genesis 1 and 2, and v5 and 6 -but v4's and m4's echoes are felt throughout the products all the way down the line.

    DAZ's bread and butter is selling content. If G2F/V6 cannot use much of the content out there, it would follow that they would sell more new content compatible with their new figure. I really hate to think that is the reason, but I see no other.

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 4,511
    edited December 1969

    sjhayes2 said:

    DAZ's bread and butter is selling content. If G2F/V6 cannot use much of the content out there, it would follow that they would sell more new content compatible with their new figure. I really hate to think that is the reason, but I see no other.

    The other important reason is the work involved in creating a product that will allow for backward compatibility. That effort is not free.

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 5,837
    edited June 2013

    sjhayes2 said:

    DAZ's bread and butter is selling content. If G2F/V6 cannot use much of the content out there, it would follow that they would sell more new content compatible with their new figure. I really hate to think that is the reason, but I see no other.

    The other important reason is the work involved in creating a product that will allow for backward compatibility. That effort is not free.

    Yes, it does cost Daz and PA's money to make compatible content. So either you can pay a small fee (which I think is more than fair), or just not have support for it at all. Also with backward compatibility, PA's and vendors already take a huge hit in revenue with new content sales because some people prefer to use their older content and feel they don't need to buy newer products. Some consumers just want, but are not willing to pay the fee required for the effort. Bottom line, this is a business and not a charity. With no decent revenue generated off new products, us PA's will simply die off and less new content will be available. But at the same time, we understand how important backward compatibility is to a users investment. It's hard trying to please everybody, and you cannot get it right all the time, because people respond to it differently.

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • nakamuram002nakamuram002 Posts: 395
    edited December 1969

    Jay_NOLA said:
    I downloaded all files when it was first released and when updates were announced.

    The date of the files in the first version was 6-18-2013.

    An update version came out on 6-20-2013 by going by the date in the files.

    Another updated version came out on 6-22-2013.

    Only the DIM version has the newer files from the 6-22-2013 update.

    The standalone installers were last updated on 6-20-2013.

    I just re-downloaded again to check and see if the standalone version gs did get updated after reading your post.

    How are you getting the file dates Jay? All I see is the date of my installation.

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 4,511
    edited June 2013

    Zev0 said:

    Yes, it does cost Daz and PA's money to make compatible content. So either you can pay a small fee (which I think is more than fair), or just not have support for it at all.

    For old folks like myself, how many of us re-purchased music in CD format that they already owned in cassette form? Or VHS to DVD? Getting dozens of V4 UV's onto Genesis 2 cost me less than 1 CD worth of mainstream music.

    Technically one could make their own V4 UV support for Genesis 2, but the hours it would take to do so would be counter productive. So you are paying for the convenience of saving a boat load of time.


    Musicians already take a huge hit in revenue with new music sales because some people prefer to listen to their older music and feel they don't need to buy newer albums. With no decent revenue generated off new albums, Bands will simply die off and less new music will be available.

    I occasionally hear musicians say just about this. Think about how fans perceive this kind of statement? Usually they are not sympathetic for good reason, it sounds like the creators are blaming content people love.

    Post edited by larsmidnatt on
  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 9,390
    edited June 2013

    Zev0 said:
    sjhayes2 said:

    DAZ's bread and butter is selling content. If G2F/V6 cannot use much of the content out there, it would follow that they would sell more new content compatible with their new figure. I really hate to think that is the reason, but I see no other.

    The other important reason is the work involved in creating a product that will allow for backward compatibility. That effort is not free.

    Yes, it does cost Daz and PA's money to make compatible content. So either you can pay a small fee (which I think is more than fair), or just not have support for it at all. Also with backward compatibility, PA's and vendors already take a huge hit in revenue with new content sales because some people prefer to use their older content and feel they don't need to buy newer products. Some consumers just want, but are not willing to pay the fee required for the effort. Bottom line, this is a business and not a charity. With no decent revenue generated off new products, us PA's will simply die off and less new content will be available. But at the same time, we understand how important backward compatibility is to a users investment. It's hard trying to please everybody, and you cannot get it right all the time, because people respond to it differently.

    Well said Z.

    I had all of April's hair redo's that were offered last night. With the discount for previous owners and the coupon applied I paid $37.00 for 6 hair props that were optimized and updated for both Genesis and Genesis 02. I have no complaints about paying a small fee for updated products at all.

    EDIT... Oops.... Sorry, I bought all 4 of the PC items too so subtract about $8.00 from that total. So around $29.00 for all 6 April products....

    Post edited by RAMWolff on
  • zigraphixzigraphix Posts: 2,813
    edited December 1969

    It's worth noting that backwards compatibility also helps keep residual sales higher, i.e. a V4 outfit may still be bought by a new customer wanting to use it on G2F since it can be converted, whereas otherwise fewer new customers would be interested in an older outfit. If there are more new customers coming in to the market than have already bought the older figure, the backward compatibility probably works in the clothing creator's favor.

    It does take considerable effort to provide the clone morph and UV map, though, and that has to be covered somehow. Either the cost would have to be folded into the cost of G2F (which is free) or V6, or it has to be sold separately.

  • Jay_NOLAJay_NOLA Posts: 1,145
    edited December 1969

    If you look in the DIM version zip you can check the date of the Manifest file and the dates of the various Folders in the zip. (I'm looking in the zip and not unzipping it as that can change the folder dates.)

    If you look in the 16559_Victoria4forGenesis2Female_1.0_trx.zip you can look at the date on the Info.plst, intallbuilder, and installbuilder.sh files. The give a date of 6-20-2013. The older ones gave a date of 6-18-2013.

    When the 6-20-2013 version came out I asked in this thread if the standalone versions were updated and were told they were. I also looked carefully at the files and noticed the differences in dates of files between the two..

    It was latter announced that another update was done on the weekend and I downloaded and checked the file dates and the DIM version got updated to 6-22-2013 if you look at the dates on that file and the folder. The DIM version also has a DIM Poser CF that can be downloaded which wasn't in the files from the previous build.

    You can also check the files installed with those in the DIM version and you will see that some in the 6-22-2013 DIM version are newer.

    Hope that helps.

    Jay_NOLA said:
    I downloaded all files when it was first released and when updates were announced.

    The date of the files in the first version was 6-18-2013.

    An update version came out on 6-20-2013 by going by the date in the files.

    Another updated version came out on 6-22-2013.

    Only the DIM version has the newer files from the 6-22-2013 update.

    The standalone installers were last updated on 6-20-2013.

    I just re-downloaded again to check and see if the standalone version gs did get updated after reading your post.

    How are you getting the file dates Jay? All I see is the date of my installation.

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