Victoria 4 for Genesis 2 Female a post from the PA

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Comments

  • StorypilotStorypilot Posts: 1,563
    edited December 1969

    I am glad you didn't stay behind the curtain Mallen.

    Me too. The insight you've added to the discussion here, MallenLane, even in small examples, is invaluable.

  • dan.shivedan.shive Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Genesis 1 is crazy flexible, but it is a jack of all trades and master of none (other than flexing). G2 makes sense to me in that regard.

  • BarubaryBarubary Posts: 1,145
    edited December 1969

    Dammit, did you have to delete the one post I didn't back up ? :D Now I have to rephrase things based on my shabby memory ;)

    OK, let's try this again.

    MallenLane, thanks for the information. I believe DAZ made an incredibly bad and dangerous choice when they decided not to offer backwards compatibility for V4. Thanks for filling that gap. They're lucky they have people like you, Dimension3D, SickleYield, Zev0, Cridgit and a few others.

    Still, even though it is beyond your control, I'm afraid those few extra clicks to convert non-DUF files are going to make a lot of people very unhappy (not really including myself, though).

  • surrealitysurreality Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    MallenLane, I remember talking with you about the chest issues about some of the things you mentioned a few posts back -- and so I was quite thrilled to see Gen2/V6 come out as a result. I had wondered from time to time if that mightn't be partly why she came to be, but it's an advance I am in full support of for those reasons. The other improvements (from my perspective) are pretty much cherries on top. (So I guess you have some company in the trenches when the mob with the pitchforks and torches come calling, at least?)

    There's that old saying: "The jack of all trades is master of none." To me, personally, V6 has taken us leaps and bounds closer to mastery of the female form. Being able to bring over Gen4 Vicky content -- which I almost always typo as Gen$ when my Freudian slip is showing, probably due to the investments I have there ;) -- SO much better than we could with Genesis is, so far as I am concerned, a major reason to strongly consider the upgrade.

    You did a gorgeous job, full stop. Thank you.

    (And no, I haven't abandoned Poser for V6, I'm merrily developing for her in it. :) It's working nicely!)

  • linvanchenelinvanchene Posts: 1,303
    edited November 2013

    edited and removed by user

    Post edited by linvanchene on
  • MallenLaneMallenLane Posts: 129
    edited December 1969

    MallenLane, I remember talking with you about the chest issues about some of the things you mentioned a few posts back -- and so I was quite thrilled to see Gen2/V6 come out as a result. I had wondered from time to time if that mightn't be partly why she came to be, but it's an advance I am in full support of for those reasons. The other improvements (from my perspective) are pretty much cherries on top. (So I guess you have some company in the trenches when the mob with the pitchforks and torches come calling, at least?)

    There's that old saying: "The jack of all trades is master of none." To me, personally, V6 has taken us leaps and bounds closer to mastery of the female form. Being able to bring over Gen4 Vicky content -- which I almost always typo as Gen$ when my Freudian slip is showing, probably due to the investments I have there ;) -- SO much better than we could with Genesis is, so far as I am concerned, a major reason to strongly consider the upgrade.

    You did a gorgeous job, full stop. Thank you.

    (And no, I haven't abandoned Poser for V6, I'm merrily developing for her in it. :) It's working nicely!)

    Thank you :)

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,948
    edited December 1969


    (And no, I haven't abandoned Poser for V6, I'm merrily developing for her in it. :) It's working nicely!)

    So pleased to hear this...another reason to upgrade if I hadn't already done so.

  • The Vertex DoctorThe Vertex Doctor Posts: 82
    edited June 2013

    What will please me and make me purchase V6 and the upcoming M6 is this.

    If you end up supporting Gen 3, and Gen 4 shapes for V3, V4, M3, M4, K4 and perhaps the freaks INCLUDING the clothing autofits. The rest I really do not use but I know others do. That way you will get my money, DAZ will get my money and people should be happy. In fact, you'll have to stop me from throwing money at you.

    Now about K5/6 ...

    Post edited by The Vertex Doctor on
  • nakamuram002nakamuram002 Posts: 395
    edited December 1969

    All I really wanted was a weight mapped V4. Maybe Victoria 4 for Genesis 2 is my answer. How well do high-heels convert?

  • twallingtwalling Posts: 211
    edited December 1969

    When you talk about how the original Genesis's flexibility is also its downfall, it makes you wonder why this idea was foisted upon people to begin with.... the release of Genesis angered a great many people in the community, as they couldn't even USE the new "wave of the future" figure, because they used Poser, and Daz was all about selling all sorts of Genesis-only figures.

    NOW they come out with this "new" idea to slit the figures by gender, sort of like, uh, Vicky and Mike 1, 2, 3, and 4?

    Why not just release "Genesis 2 Female" as "Victoria 6" and just say the whole "Genesis" thing was a failed experiment, as it is obviously being considered?

    Me? I liked flexy, morphy Genesis, though I thought it's hands sucked and it lacked many expressions. I certainly don't like buying a base figure then add-on morph packs over and over again, especially every danged year.

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    MallenLane, so what about better V4 autofit for Genesis (shoes)? As shown by example it is possible to make it alongside with regular V4 autofit.

  • MallenLaneMallenLane Posts: 129
    edited June 2013

    twalling said:
    When you talk about how the original Genesis's flexibility is also its downfall, it makes you wonder why this idea was foisted upon people to begin with.... the release of Genesis angered a great many people in the community, as they couldn't even USE the new "wave of the future" figure, because they used Poser, and Daz was all about selling all sorts of Genesis-only figures.

    NOW they come out with this "new" idea to slit the figures by gender, sort of like, uh, Vicky and Mike 1, 2, 3, and 4?

    Why not just release "Genesis 2 Female" as "Victoria 6" and just say the whole "Genesis" thing was a failed experiment, as it is obviously being considered?

    Me? I liked flexy, morphy Genesis, though I thought it's hands sucked and it lacked many expressions. I certainly don't like buying a base figure then add-on morph packs over and over again, especially every danged year.

    Because Genesis 1 wasn't a failure, or poorly thought out, or something that was foisted on the market as an "experiment", and none of that was remotely what I was saying. I was saying Genesis 1 took a different path, with different goals; the same as when i did Aiko 4 on Victoria 4. Different path, different goals, different results compared to Aiko3.

    Not everything is black and white. Something isn't inherently lacking in value just because it's innately different and addresses different issues.

    Post edited by MallenLane on
  • Mr Gneiss GuyMr Gneiss Guy Posts: 462
    edited June 2013

    twalling said:
    When you talk about how the original Genesis's flexibility is also its downfall, it makes you wonder why this idea was foisted upon people to begin with.... the release of Genesis angered a great many people in the community, as they couldn't even USE the new "wave of the future" figure, because they used Poser, and Daz was all about selling all sorts of Genesis-only figures..

    I think they were making a push to try to get into the game market. They talked a lot about it a couple of years ago, had some tools for game development and opened the licensed content for game store/plan. If that was the goal, a low poly (compared to V4, not low for games) figure that was flexible and shared rigging makes sense. Because we look at things from Poser/DS point of view doesn't necessarily mean that DAZ does. Or at least that is my theory, I am sure there are others, probably some better, hopefully some worse or I would feel bad.

    But, to the topic at hand, has anyone tried socks or stockings on this yet? I assume that would be even harder than shoes for a really good result, and that would be REALLY good to have.

    Post edited by Mr Gneiss Guy on
  • MallenLaneMallenLane Posts: 129
    edited June 2013

    All I really wanted was a weight mapped V4. Maybe Victoria 4 for Genesis 2 is my answer. How well do high-heels convert?

    Here is a pair of heeled boots, and a comparison against the same on Genesis. Full transparency of the functionality here; there is a little bit of distortion on the end of the heel. It was never going to be 100% perfect, but I do think it works considerably better?

    heels.png
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    Post edited by MallenLane on
  • dan.shivedan.shive Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    All I really wanted was a weight mapped V4. Maybe Victoria 4 for Genesis 2 is my answer. How well do high-heels convert?

    Here is a pair of heeled boots, and a comparison against the same on Genesis. Full transparency of the functionality here; there is a little bit of distortion on the end of the heel. It was never going to be 100% perfect, but I do think it works considerably better?
    Forgive my ignorance, but how did you do that? Every time I try to auto-transfer something with high heels, it's never THAT on the money.

  • Mr Gneiss GuyMr Gneiss Guy Posts: 462
    edited December 1969

    All I really wanted was a weight mapped V4. Maybe Victoria 4 for Genesis 2 is my answer. How well do high-heels convert?

    Here is a pair of heeled boots, and a comparison against the same on Genesis. Full transparency of the functionality here; there is a little bit of distortion on the end of the heel. It was never going to be 100% perfect, but I do think it works considerably better?

    Much better, much, much better.

  • MallenLaneMallenLane Posts: 129
    edited December 1969

    Erm, I just dragged it into the view-port onto the figure, and said Victoria 4 when the box popped up... >.> No special process..

  • Paula SandersPaula Sanders Posts: 321
    edited December 1969

    Thank you so much, Mallen, for your explanations. I really appreciate it and bought the V4Genesis 2 conversion. Thanks, again.

    Paula

  • Mr Gneiss GuyMr Gneiss Guy Posts: 462
    edited June 2013

    dan.shive said:
    All I really wanted was a weight mapped V4. Maybe Victoria 4 for Genesis 2 is my answer. How well do high-heels convert?

    Here is a pair of heeled boots, and a comparison against the same on Genesis. Full transparency of the functionality here; there is a little bit of distortion on the end of the heel. It was never going to be 100% perfect, but I do think it works considerably better?


    Forgive my ignorance, but how did you do that? Every time I try to auto-transfer something with high heels, it's never THAT on the money.

    He created a new clone for this product, in other words, his math is better than the original V4 clone.

    Post edited by Mr Gneiss Guy on
  • DavidGBDavidGB Posts: 562
    edited December 1969


    And again, as I stated before, none of this is going to sway you, if flexibility means more to you than anything else.

    That's several times you've stated it as if the only reason people might prefer/support Genesis above Genesis 2 is flexibility in shaping characters with the figure being used.

    I have a completely different reason why I am .... actually the best word I can think for what I'm feeling is 'appalled'- really very appalled - by this switch away from the single figure and back to separate figures for the two sexes. And it's not what you can do with the figure intrinsically, but rather the effect this is going to have on the DAZ and PA clothing market. After a blessed year or two of improvement, it's going to regress (from my POV) horribly back to what it was through the Gen1, 2, 3 and 4 figures.

    Maybe I m the only DAZ customer this will affect. Maybe I'm the only DAZ user with my particular want/taste/need in clothing for my female characters. But here's the thing - whether I want to render modern day, SF or Fantasy scenes (and I do all three), MY women characters wear realistic, practical clothes for what they are about. They don't wear dresses; they don't wear skirts; they don't wear ruffles and bows and floaty gauzy bits; they don't wear ridiculous chainmail bikinis as 'armour'; they don't dress in leather corsets and fishnets like domme mistresses in bad porn movies; they definitely don't show loads of skin. And that's the problem. Through Gen1, 2, 3 and 4, there was a SERIOUS lack of practical clothing, realistic clothing, unisex clothing, uniforms etc for Vicky3, Steph3, Vicky4 et al. Most of the female clothing was either blatantly sexualised in 'erotic' ways, or utterly girly, or completely impractical (and I really, really HATE all the 'magic clothing' that has absolutely no buttons, zips, fasteners or any kind of way at all of taking it off or putting it on). On the rare occasions where a female version of a uniform or practical unisex clothing also available for M3/D3/M4 was offered, it was usually either (a) altered and sexualised in a non-configurable way (like the Shadow Dancer line tops) or (b) came with significantly reduced options/support (like the M4 and V4 versions of the ACU ... and no V4 version of the USMC clothes, of course); and on the very rare occasions the set was offered equally for both (like the Gen4 RLH Police) it STILL meant having to find the money for two sets, as I rarely pose a woman on her own but have both men and women in scenes so need to clothe both.

    On a practical level, over the lifetime of my V3 then S3 then V4 use, I spent far more time struggling through converting M3/D3/M4 clothing to them (with appropriate added feminisation where indicated, not with genuinely unisex items of course) than all the time I spent doing anything else with DS and Poser - building the characters, constructing scenes, posing, lighting, rendering etc - all added together. And by the end, I was utterly sick of it. Plus I've become disabled since I started all this, and can only use my computer for 3D stuff for relatively short times at irregular intervals and through mounting pain. And I just won't go back to having to wade through doing clothing conversions to get decent, practical, realistic clothing for my female characters when they are out and about up to what they get up to, which isn't posing for soft porn photo shoots, trying to seduce a man in their boudoir, or getting frozen or their skin rubbed off because they're not in practical clothing or the uniform they should be in for where they are and what they are doing.

    And on an ethical level, frankly the clothing range in the DAZ store when V3, S3 then V4 were the current frmale figure was appalling. Almost all the female clothing was either girly-girly or what people have taken to calling stripperware and skankware: pretty girly or acres-of-skin erotica. I know many people want that even if I don't and don't buy any of it. The problem isn't that it's in the store, it's that it's almost all there is for female characters in the store. It makes DAZ reek of the worst kind of sexual stereotyping and sexualisation of women. I personally find it revolting, and I don't dare show the DAZ store to anyone who doesn't already do 3D because the first store page I go to will inevitably give whoever I might show it to the impression it's some soft porn resource; the one and only time I DID show the DAZ store to someone, I was so embarrassed I swore never, ever to show it to anyone else ever again.

    But then .... Genesis. And for this short, blessed time everything changed. For the first time, all the practical wear, the unisex wear, the uniforms etc went straight onto female characters along with the male. No having all this stuff without female equivalents, no having the few offerings for the female characters still short changing them or doubling the bill to dress my men and women teams. And in the DAZ store, pictures of women in decent, sensible clothing, not showing acres of skin, alongside the men, not only the soft porn or pretty fairies pictures of the women.

    I really thought DAZ was moving on.

    And now you're going right back again. The split will return - just girly girls, strippers, dommes and fairies for the women again. First day I can see it - not one ... not ONE item of clothing for Genesis 2 Female/V6 out today in the bundles or for separate purchase I would ever buy or use.

    So while what your say about technical advantages of separate female and male figures may be true in some theoretical sense (although I could argue that --- alternate UVs with different M/F breast area for a Genesis sweater that's been in the store for some time, for instance, to deal with texture stretching on the female chest difference, and other such innovative solutions SOME PAs have come up with), for me the PRACTICAL consequence of splitting to separate male and female figures VASTLY outweighs any such advance. The new clothing lines from DAZ and the PAs (with a few honourable exceptions) will go right back the way things were; the malodorous sexual stereotyping and sexism will be back in the store full force.

    And I won't be having any of it. I've had enough of trying to do decent clothing conversions male to female, so unless there's a one-click solution that produces QUALITY results (and no, not two step, not M4>Genesis>Genesis2Female - extra steps reduce conversion quality exponentially), AND some decent, practical and unisex/uniform type clothing native for G2F in a timely manner, AND, when G2M appears, PAs and DAZ produce matching sets for both G2M and G2F without sexualising the female versions (offer transmaps or material zones to bare the midriff and scoop the neck of the female version for optional 'sexy' - fine; but no cutting the mesh of the bottom and neck out of the polo neck for the female one so there's no choice BUT 'sexy') and without us having to pay twice, I will NOT be moving to Genesis 2.

    I am really saddened. This is a massive step backwards for DAZ, and the store will return (has already started to return in only one day) to one I'm ashamed to visit, and which makes my skin crawl with the misogynistic and hyper-sexualised attitude to women that used to leap out of every page pre Genesis and will again because of Genesis 2 FEMALE.

    I don't suppose DAZ or the PAs will be bothered (or for that matter notice) that I won't be buying Genesis 2 stuff, but I just wanted to put my reason on the record, and how appalled I am by DAZ's chosen path forwards, or from my POV backwards.

  • dan.shivedan.shive Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    He created a new clone for this product, in other words, his math is better than the original V4 clone.

    I'm aware of that. Thing is, one of two things happens when I try:

    a) I select Victoria 4's clone and "footwear", and I get an unusable result.

    b) I select Victoria 4's clone and don't specify anything else, and Daz Studio crashes.

  • Mr Gneiss GuyMr Gneiss Guy Posts: 462
    edited December 1969

    Ah, sorry. I guess I misunderstood.

  • MallenLaneMallenLane Posts: 129
    edited December 1969

    dan.shive said:
    He created a new clone for this product, in other words, his math is better than the original V4 clone.

    I'm aware of that. Thing is, one of two things happens when I try:

    a) I select Victoria 4's clone and "footwear", and I get an unusable result.

    b) I select Victoria 4's clone and don't specify anything else, and Daz Studio crashes.

    Sorry, but I can't replicate what you are having happen. :-\

  • zigraphixzigraphix Posts: 2,813
    edited December 1969

    I would just like to praise MallenLane both for technical skills and communication clarity. If I buy any content for Genesis 2, it will include this product, and both the quality of the product and the quality of communication about the product will be factors. :)

  • dan.shivedan.shive Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Sorry, but I can't replicate what you are having happen. :-\

    I was hoping your answer would involve some trick to it, but I'm pretty sure the crashing is somehow unique to me and my system. I've heard of other people having weird glitches that other people don't get; I guess this one's mine.
  • MallenLaneMallenLane Posts: 129
    edited June 2013

    DavidGB: I did read your entire post, and I do understand what your concerns are and why; I refer to it as Elven Underwear Syndrome. Not in a derogatory manner, just that it's rather obvious to me at times, where the majority of the artists in the community focus their interests for add-on items.

    I can't predict the future, and using the past may not be the best indicator of it either. Nor can anyone force anyone else to make something other than what they want, or what they believe will sell best. I believe it will be easier to support multiple figures this time. Can I guarantee you anything? No.

    Post edited by MallenLane on
  • ZilvergrafixZilvergrafix Posts: 793
    edited December 1969

    not really problems here in my planet for now, just posting to congratulate/praise/honor MallenLane for the incredible work, skills and dedication for your designs, from a die hard fan of Aiko3 and Hitomi, thanks man!

    Zilvergrafix

  • namffuaknamffuak Posts: 3,047
    edited December 1969

    zigraphix said:
    I would just like to praise MallenLane both for technical skills and communication clarity. If I buy any content for Genesis 2, it will include this product, and both the quality of the product and the quality of communication about the product will be factors. :)

    I agree completely.

    Genesis 1 was a massive improvement in functionality, with some inherent flaws from the ubiquitous universality. I think Genesis 2 will correct the bulk of those flaws. And I see no reason, going forward, why either would totally usurp the other.

    And man, I wish I had 10% of your skills!

  • chsmo69_9e7c32a610chsmo69_9e7c32a610 Posts: 29
    edited December 1969

    DavidGB said:
    Maybe I m the only DAZ customer this will affect. Maybe I'm the only DAZ user with my particular want/taste/need in clothing for my female characters. But here's the thing - whether I want to render modern day, SF or Fantasy scenes (and I do all three), MY women characters wear realistic, practical clothes for what they are about. They don't wear dresses; they don't wear skirts; they don't wear ruffles and bows and floaty gauzy bits; they don't wear ridiculous chainmail bikinis as 'armour'; they don't dress in leather corsets and fishnets like domme mistresses in bad porn movies; they definitely don't show loads of skin. And that's the problem. Through Gen1, 2, 3 and 4, there was a SERIOUS lack of practical clothing, realistic clothing, unisex clothing, uniforms etc for Vicky3, Steph3, Vicky4 et al.

    This is in the top 2 of my concerns as well, but from the opposite side. The market for gender based clothing was frustrating as all heck back in the M4/V4 days. 90% of my work revolves around the male figure and Genesis opened a new world of possibilities with clothing. I am NOT talking about a skirt wearing transvestite! There were numerous V4 items I took advantage of and dressed my males with. The pic attached is only a small sample of cross gender items.

    With the new Gen2, I may lose this versatility. At the very least I'll have to jump through hoops to make something work that was once automatic. I clearly see the advantages and beauty of the improved model... but it's coming at a great price. And I fear that this time next year, Genesis 1 will not even be usable due to Studio updates as DAZ focuses on updating Gen2 Essentials rather than Gen1.

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  • nakamuram002nakamuram002 Posts: 395
    edited December 1969

    All I really wanted was a weight mapped V4. Maybe Victoria 4 for Genesis 2 is my answer. How well do high-heels convert?

    Here is a pair of heeled boots, and a comparison against the same on Genesis. Full transparency of the functionality here; there is a little bit of distortion on the end of the heel. It was never going to be 100% perfect, but I do think it works considerably better?

    Thanks Mallen!! Too bad there isn't a way designate surfaces that keep their shape vs. those that change shape when being auto fit. At $10.47, your product is a "must have" for me, while V6 is completely unnecessary. Purchased!!

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