Victoria 4 for Genesis 2 Female a post from the PA

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  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited June 2013

    Looking at MallenLane's picture(s) of V6/G2F and explanations in this thread I'm still utterly baffled. Forgive me some rhetoric (i.e. not aimed at MallenLane specifically) questions/musings.

    What G2F has that Genesis couldn't have as update instead of new release and split figures? From new 2226 polygons 352 polygons go on EyeReflection spheres, yes, just balls on the eyes that could be without much problems added as conformers instead of being a part of geometry. I'm yet to do mesh by mesh matching, but I'm starting to feel that other 1874 polygons weren't well-used either. Better breasts? With all this effort that went into G2F it could have been done for Genesis with new technology. Better bending? Could have been done for Genesis. More detailed shape? Could have been done for Genesis. Those improvements aren't ground-breaking and don't merit the making of new Genesis. The name 'Genesis 2' itself becomes absurd, as the very idea of what Genesis is and supposed to be is forgotten in order to make more boobs and sell same morphpacks twice.

    G2F is released and suddenly many started to repeat, like they are under spell or have learnt a mantra, something that summarizes to, in essence, "Genesis females aren't realistic", "Genesis females (including V5 and SP5) aren't feminine" or "There is no point in unisex human figure" like suddenly Genesis is a sub-par figure good only for backgrounds or monsters. Attitude toward Genesis human shapes often borders on patronizing while actual changes in G2F are quite small. They are not bad but they are small and nothing to incur that sort of attitude.

    Newest is shiniest, I got it, but I still don't see anything better than glitter, nothing that would prevent all those good adjustments (including better autofits and better breasts and maybe excluding toes) to be made for Genesis with DS 4.6 technology. G2F is a very customer-unfriendly figure (pricier to get to higher functionality, really bad backward comparability, and with release of male g2M you'd have to buy all morphpacks again). While I really appreciate MallenLane's effort, he or she alone won't be able to transfer all Gen3 and Gen4 iconic shapes, clones and maps; at the best we'd get, I feel, M4 and maybe one of Aikos/Hitomi. Will I be able to use M4 maps and clothes on female G2F? I could with Genesis. I can't with G2F and this is not a step forward regardless of how well G2F boobs are flattened or how many more knee sculpturing V6 has. Sculpts can be made easier than functionality and we lost a huge chunk of functionality with G2F.

    So again, where is the core merit? If we look purely at both figures cores with all available DS 4.6 technology, where is the merit of G2F that couldn't had been done to Genesis?

    And I very much agree with DavidGB there that I can't show DAZ3D (or, save gods, Renderosity) to a potential business client or creative friend or even female gaming acquaintance because of overabundance of sexualized female shapes already in store, and with V6 featuring word 'sexier' in a promo blurb it will be not possible at all. It is a strange situation because year after year DAZ3D is so happy about being recognized by main 3D industry even in slightest, but still pushes forward more boobs and negligees that are preventing this very recognition.

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • DrakenhawkeDrakenhawke Posts: 33
    edited December 1969

    How does one get Genesis 2? I didn't see it as part of any bundle or character. Is the base Genesis 2 figure free? I
    am sorry I seem a little unclear about this issue. :o

  • GhostofMacbethGhostofMacbeth Posts: 970
    edited December 1969

    Thank you Micahel

  • MallenLaneMallenLane Posts: 129
    edited June 2013

    edit: actually nvm, I give up trying to explain stuff.

    Post edited by MallenLane on
  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    edited December 1969

    dan.shive said:
    He created a new clone for this product, in other words, his math is better than the original V4 clone.

    I'm aware of that. Thing is, one of two things happens when I try:

    a) I select Victoria 4's clone and "footwear", and I get an unusable result.

    b) I select Victoria 4's clone and don't specify anything else, and Daz Studio crashes.

    Sorry, but I can't replicate what you are having happen. :-\If I am right about the cause, I have seen it, and it isn't because of this set at all.

    1. What version of DS are you using?
    2. Does your CMS work correctly in other things?

    This issue is usually caused by a corrupt CMS database.

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    edited December 1969

    How does one get Genesis 2? I didn't see it as part of any bundle or character. Is the base Genesis 2 figure free? I
    am sorry I seem a little unclear about this issue. :o

    Open Install manager and there it is, if you have DAZ Studio 4 in your account. Or you can do it the hard way, if you have DS in your account, you can get to it through the "My Account Page" Product Libraries.
  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited June 2013

    So you want a run down eh? So many polygons in the eye surface, so everything else must be superfluous after all, surely?
    I freely admitted that I didn't make mesh by mesh matching yet. It was and still is my feeling that yes, G2F adds very little to what Genesis already has.

    1.) There are extra loops around the breast yes, what does this do? Well it allows a more defined under-crease, but it also helps to ensure there is enough geometry collision there to prevent auto-morph from failing, and them going through clothing on some shapes.
    As you just shown with V4 Autofit and as V4 Adjustment autofit shows as well, preventing autofit collision can be also done with just better autofit cloners. If somebody (I don't mean specific people) would make a better autofit for Genesis - say, updated it at least once - there would be much lesser need for a such change. Surely new G2F autofit works better. I bet new Genesis autofit would also work better if it was ever made but aside of SickleYield efforts there was no effort from Genesis creators and supporters to improve it for a very, very long time.

    As for 'more polygons' here and there, I just looked into V4 and she had in default resolution around 65K polygons. I'm not dissing your work on reflow but we already had 'more polygons' once, and Genesis with much less polygons was able to be better than V4 was. Why do we have to go back to more polygons?

    Do I really need to keep going?


    Yes, please.

    I actually remove some, rearrange others for optimization.
    Yes, I've noticed this on front, didn't compare full meshes yet.

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • BTLProdBTLProd Posts: 114
    edited December 1969

    edit: actually nvm, I give up trying to explain stuff.
    that is too bad as it was an excellent explanation.

    BTW thanks for this V4 Clone and the V4 UV set. Very well done. I can finally use the superior bending of Triax figures and some of my favorite Gen 4 clothing, which happens to be set up as bodysuits with built in feet. Uzilite's New Adventure as an example. Now all I need is a Breast fix and a Butt fix morphs, and I will be set. I hope you have similar plans when we get to Genesis 2 Male.

    Note the image is just a fit test, definitely not a final render. :)

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  • GnotMeGnotMe Posts: 127
    edited June 2013

    You need to switch the surfaces to use Victoria 4 as the UV set. It will be at the top of the Surface panel. Just select them all and switch it.

    I'm in the same boat as Nyala who said:

    "I need a little help, please.

    I load an skin on V4 and save it as “Material Preset” and then I load the preset to the gen 2. Correct?

    Not working for me, do not know why. "

    I was ready to dump this program and ask for a refund, but after someone sent me to this forum thread and read Mallen Lanes' posts I realized that here's someone nice who is trying to help.

    So I'm asking for help. Those of you who understand the difference between UV set and Texture sets, Surface shading etc. probably have no trouble understanding these terse instructions. However, newbies, or oldies who simply use with DStudio, but have never created any clothes or done complicated things in Studio, really would like some simple easy to follow step by step instructions, possibly with some screen captures if it's not way too much trouble. By step by step I mean using a V4 example and going through the whole thing one menu at a time.

    It would be much appreciated, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who really needs this type of tutorial. Better yet if Mallen or someone else could do a video tutorial and upload to youtube, with a link here, that would probably be a lot less work for the blessed person.

    Thanks,

    Dan

    Post edited by GnotMe on
  • patience55patience55 Posts: 6,988
    edited December 1969

    drdancm said:
    You need to switch the surfaces to use Victoria 4 as the UV set. It will be at the top of the Surface panel. Just select them all and switch it.

    I'm in the same boat as Nyala who said:

    "I need a little help, please.

    I load an skin on V4 and save it as “Material Preset” and then I load the preset to the gen 2. Correct?

    Not working for me, do not know why. "

    I was ready to dump this program and ask for a refund, but after someone sent me to this forum thread and read Mallen Lanes' posts I realized that here's someone nice who is trying to help.

    So I'm asking for help. Those of you who understand the difference between UV set and Texture sets, Surface shading etc. probably have no trouble understanding these terse instructions. However, newbies, or oldies who simply use with DStudio, but have never created any clothes or done complicated things in Studio, really would like some simple easy to follow step by step instructions, possibly with some screen captures if it's not way too much trouble. By step by step I mean using a V4 example and going through the whole thing one menu at a time.

    It would be much appreciated, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who really needs this type of tutorial. Better yet if Mallen or someone else could do a video tutorial and upload to youtube, with a link here, that would probably be a lot less work for the blessed person.

    Thanks,

    Dan

    It would work for you Dan when you have switched the UV set as MallenLane said.
    I have not yet installed V4s so it's not on the drop list ... but that's where you would see yours. MallenLane's instructions were not terse, there's not much to say about clicking on a drop down and selecting the set you want ;-)

    A 'texture set' are the actual images that are applied onto the uv set. [what the material presets can apply]

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  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 2,876
    edited December 1969

    I'm glad you made the V4 for Genesis 2 female. A large number of characters I have for Genesis use the V4 UV (being dual V4/Genesis characters) and I'm glad to be able (with some hoops, but that doesn't bother me) to be able to use my V4 wardrobe and skin texture library with Gen2F.

    Many of my concerns mirror DaveGB's, but I also recognize the nature of the market, much as it regularly makes me shake my head, and that you have no control over.

  • CypherFOXCypherFOX Posts: 3,340
    edited December 1969

    Greetings,
    I thought I'd share this; these are the underside of the cleats from Pretty3D's Hot Uniforms - Soccer (they call them 'crampons'). They're a mildly rough mesh, given the extra things jutting out and stuff.

    In the underside shot:
    The top-left is the Genesis 1 Autofit, using Victoria 4 and BootsThigh as the auto-fit type.
    The top-right is the Genesis 2 Autofit, using Victoria 4 and Footwear as the auto-fit type.
    The bottom is the items without being fit to any character, so in the 'purest' form.

    You can see that the mesh on the Genesis 2 is slightly caved in, but it's just WORLDS better than the Genesis 1 conversion.

    The same holds true for the top, you can see in the far pair a significant messing up of the mesh, but in the Genesis 2 conversion it's almost unnoticeable. (Again, the back pair is the 'original', not actually fit to anything.)

    I wanted to tease that you've cost me a lot of money, because I've always re-calculated the value of V4 outfits by removing the shoes, as I wasn't going to be able to use them, and I knew some outfits were just not going to convert well...now I have to recalculate again, and I'll wanna buy more stuff! But you've gotten too much flak for being open and helpful, and I didn't want you to think I was serious. :)

    So...thank you! This vastly opens up clothing opportunities for me, and I appreciate it!

    -- Morgan

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    Crampons_Example.png
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  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 9,390
    edited December 1969

    Glad you here working your magic Mallen.

    I do have a future question.... are you also developing the M6 shape? I hope so. I figure if you can't beat them, join them.

    I do hope that more support for the older Generations find their way into our runtimes for these Gene02 figures.

    Thanks for all you do...

  • SkirikiSkiriki Posts: 4,951
    edited December 1969

    MallenLane, thanks! :) This has given me a chance to use those V4 shoes I haven't been able to use before! And do some wacky conversion hijinks between figures! Woohoo! :D

    Please continue being awesome, I actually liked your technical explanations a lot! It teaches me lots of stuff!

  • hzrhzr Posts: 167
    edited December 1969

    So much crying once again. People should really learn to be patient and wait what time brings.

    I think the new mesh looks definately good and refined. The woman shape shows alot better and slim characters work ALOT better than on genesis or generation 4 figures without looking creepy. I really do like how the shoulders look and the improved breast creasing is also a welcome change for more realism.

    While complaints about compatibility and the business model are mostly valid, I still say that this is just the same that it was when genesis "happened" a few years ago. Everyone was raging hard and probably the same ppl are now rooting for the first mesh and hating on the new one. I believe that all those things that people are now crying out for will eventually be included. DAZ are a business and they usually try to please their customers.

    It just wont happen over night and take a while until everything that you have come to expect from the original genesis will eventually work for the new figure aswell.

    If you are not happy with the new figure yet, wait a few months and then check back. Genesis is not going to stop working all of a sudden. I did the same thing with V4 and just looked back at genesis a year later before deciding to finally use it for most stuff.

    Just one request to you at DAZ : Make sure to update all the functionality options, especially Gen3 stuff, and try to support the GenX creator as much as you can. Those things will be big factors in how fast people might adapt to the new one.

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited June 2013

    heinz0r said:

    While complaints about compatibility and the business model are mostly valid, I still say that this is just the same that it was when genesis "happened" a few years ago. Everyone was raging hard and probably the same ppl are now rooting for the first mesh and hating on the new one. I believe that all those things that people are now crying out for will eventually be included. DAZ are a business and they usually try to please their customers.

    But Genesis brought a huge innovation (TriAx weighting, new rigging, completely remade figure, united figure, endless morphability, autofit clones). Each generation before Genesis brought a huge innovation (Gen 4 brought much improved UV idea with separate limbs, completely remade figure and rigging, first true unification attempt along the gender, Gen 3 brought injection morphs, fully new figure, first noticeable JMCs, first widely reusable textures, etc).

    Where is this big innovation step in G2F? I'm seeing tweaks in mesh, autofit and rigging, - nice tweaks, sure, don't argue there, but there are no noticeable innovative features that Genesis 2 was supposed to have as a next generation figure. More than everything, to me G2F feels like a patch that should be done to Genesis instead of being made into separate figure. The figure is now sexier (and this is officially a part of its description), but 'sexier' is hardly a big innovation that 'Genesis 2' should have had, if at all. I'm asking there and here people to explain or show me those innovations thinking maybe I missed something but all I was shown up to this point are tweaks. Mesh is about same - tweaked, and tweaked well but not redone. Rigging is about same - good for poses but G2F still can't copy some simple real-life neck/head bends without external help. New UVs are about same with about same map separation for major bodyparts. Autofit is better but again, no new features in it, like handling skirts with ghost bones and long chain-like scarves. Endless morphability is lost in order to make a figure sexier. What are the new features that weren't done before?

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 58,404
    edited December 1969

    If you "patch" the geometry morphs and GeoGrafting break.

    If you "patch" the joint centres conforming breaks.

    If you "patch" the weight-maps at least some conforming is likely to break, though that's not as absolute as with the joint centres.

    Once content is available patching a figure becomes extremely difficult, and is limited in what it can do. I won't deny that I share DavidGB's concerns, or that I am happy about the loss of flexibility, but it remaisn true as a general point that any marked improvement to Genesis (which doesn't have to imply that Genesis was itself bad) necessitates a new figure.

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 14,823
    edited December 1969

    I am hoping this product will work for me. I bought v6 yesterday, and discovered many of my v5 skins used v4 uv's. What a bummer. I haven't tried it yet, since I'm off to work, but I hope this will help make v5, look better.

    I hope in the future now that v6 can't natively run v4 stuff that the UV's for v5 is more clear in product info before buying.

    Anyway thanks to the pa for making this product. I'll give it a try tonight.

  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 2,876
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:

    As for Genesis support - Genesis, being in Starter Essentials is not available any longer because DS 4.5 is no longer available. People who want to try V4 can - right now - still buy it but you can't get Genesis anymore if you are new user.

    Do you have confirmation of this? When I check my product library, DS4.6 lists both Genesis starter essentials and Genesis 2 Female Starter Essentials down at the bottom as part of the product bundle. But I also bought DS4.5.

    Still, considering that Genesis Starter Essentials consists of Genesis, several basic characters, clothing, hair, props and the Sub Dragon, and Genesis 2 Female Starter Essentials consists of Genesis 2 Female, a character, some clothing and some poses, I doubt that Genesis 2 Female starter Essentials has flat out replaced the old Genesis Starter Essentials yet.

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited June 2013

    Kattey said:

    As for Genesis support - Genesis, being in Starter Essentials is not available any longer because DS 4.5 is no longer available. People who want to try V4 can - right now - still buy it but you can't get Genesis anymore if you are new user.

    Do you have confirmation of this? When I check my product library, DS4.6 lists both Genesis starter essentials and Genesis 2 Female Starter Essentials down at the bottom as part of the product bundle. But I also bought DS4.5.
    If I'm not mistaken, DS 4.5 is no longer available to new user and thus Genesis Essentials are no longer available to new user because DS 4.6 comes with G2F Essentials now.
    If you had Genesis Essentials before they are still in your product library (for now?) but I was speaking about new users in this respect. Say, I just came to DAZ3D. I see Genesis morphs - that can change Genesis into anything, male/female/child/beast - in store but how can I, as a new user, get Genesis Essentials itself? Correct me if I'm wrong. I'll be happy to be wrong.

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • MurgatroydMurgatroyd Posts: 1,145
    edited December 1969

    There's that old saying: "The jack of all trades is master of none." To me, personally, V6 has taken us leaps and bounds closer to mastery of the female form.

    "Jack of all trades, master of none, but often better than a master of one."
    G2F, so far, seems to be a master of one - the youthful adult female form.

    Genesis 1 was a massive improvement in functionality, with some inherent flaws from the ubiquitous universality. I think Genesis 2 will correct the bulk of those flaws. And I see no reason, going forward, why either would totally usurp the other.

    Sadly, it seems to also be "correcting" the bulk of the functionality.

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:

    As for Genesis support - Genesis, being in Starter Essentials is not available any longer because DS 4.5 is no longer available. People who want to try V4 can - right now - still buy it but you can't get Genesis anymore if you are new user.

    Do you have confirmation of this? When I check my product library, DS4.6 lists both Genesis starter essentials and Genesis 2 Female Starter Essentials down at the bottom as part of the product bundle. But I also bought DS4.5.

    Still, considering that Genesis Starter Essentials consists of Genesis, several basic characters, clothing, hair, props and the Sub Dragon, and Genesis 2 Female Starter Essentials consists of Genesis 2 Female, a character, some clothing and some poses, I doubt that Genesis 2 Female starter Essentials has flat out replaced the old Genesis Starter Essentials yet.
    Genesis Starter Essentials has not been removed from DAZ Studio 4.6.

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:

    As for Genesis support - Genesis, being in Starter Essentials is not available any longer because DS 4.5 is no longer available. People who want to try V4 can - right now - still buy it but you can't get Genesis anymore if you are new user.

    Do you have confirmation of this? When I check my product library, DS4.6 lists both Genesis starter essentials and Genesis 2 Female Starter Essentials down at the bottom as part of the product bundle. But I also bought DS4.5.

    Still, considering that Genesis Starter Essentials consists of Genesis, several basic characters, clothing, hair, props and the Sub Dragon, and Genesis 2 Female Starter Essentials consists of Genesis 2 Female, a character, some clothing and some poses, I doubt that Genesis 2 Female starter Essentials has flat out replaced the old Genesis Starter Essentials yet.


    Genesis Starter Essentials has not been removed from DAZ Studio 4.6.
    No? I'm actually very happy to be wrong in this situation. Thank you.
  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:
    Kattey said:

    As for Genesis support - Genesis, being in Starter Essentials is not available any longer because DS 4.5 is no longer available. People who want to try V4 can - right now - still buy it but you can't get Genesis anymore if you are new user.

    Do you have confirmation of this? When I check my product library, DS4.6 lists both Genesis starter essentials and Genesis 2 Female Starter Essentials down at the bottom as part of the product bundle. But I also bought DS4.5.


    If I'm not mistaken, DS 4.5 is no longer available to new user and thus Genesis Essentials are no longer available to new user because DS 4.6 comes with G2F Essentials now.
    If you had Genesis Essentials before they are still in your product library (for now?) but I was speaking about new users in this respect. Say, I just came to DAZ3D. I see Genesis morphs - that can change Genesis into anything, male/female/child/beast - in store but how can I, as a new user, get Genesis Essentials itself? Correct me if I'm wrong. I'll be happy to be wrong. You are entirely mistaken.
  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 2,876
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:
    Kattey said:

    As for Genesis support - Genesis, being in Starter Essentials is not available any longer because DS 4.5 is no longer available. People who want to try V4 can - right now - still buy it but you can't get Genesis anymore if you are new user.

    Do you have confirmation of this? When I check my product library, DS4.6 lists both Genesis starter essentials and Genesis 2 Female Starter Essentials down at the bottom as part of the product bundle. But I also bought DS4.5.


    If I'm not mistaken, DS 4.5 is no longer available to new user and thus Genesis Essentials are no longer available to new user because DS 4.6 comes with G2F Essentials now.
    If you had Genesis Essentials before they are still in your product library (for now?) but I was speaking about new users in this respect. Say, I just came to DAZ3D. I see Genesis morphs - that can change Genesis into anything, male/female/child/beast - in store but how can I, as a new user, get Genesis Essentials itself? Correct me if I'm wrong. I'll be happy to be wrong.

    DAZ_Spooky has already spoken, but also, I wasn't looking for Genesis Starter Essentials. I was looking at DAZ Studio 4.6 Pro. At the bottom of the download page on my product library tab, there is a scroll with the thumbnails for all products included in the same bundle. Both Genesis Starter Essentials and Genesis 2 Female Starter Essentials were listed.

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    That is really good to know - otherwise it would be too grim situation.

  • icprncssicprncss Posts: 3,647
    edited December 1969

    G2F and the future male actually take us back to V2 and M2 without the benefits. Though at least with V2 and M2, you ended up with more morphs while still using the same textures and clothing.

  • BTLProdBTLProd Posts: 114
    edited December 1969

    icprncss said:
    G2F and the future male actually take us back to V2 and M2 without the benefits. Though at least with V2 and M2, you ended up with more morphs while still using the same textures and clothing.
    Based on what facts?

    Victoria 6 has been out one day, there is no indication that this is all there is to Genesis Female 2 or even Victoria 6.

  • The Vertex DoctorThe Vertex Doctor Posts: 82
    edited June 2013

    Based on what facts?

    Victoria 6 has been out one day, there is no indication that this is all there is to Genesis Female 2 or even Victoria 6.

    I'm taking a wait and see attitude for now. If/When Genesis 2 Male and Michael 6 come out, if you can't cross fit clothing, skins, and morphs between the two, I won't be buying.

    Post edited by The Vertex Doctor on
  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,234
    edited June 2013

    Kattey said:
    ...What are the new features that weren't done before?

    You keep ignoring everything that people have been saying about topology. I'm not sure if this is because you don't understand it, or because you don't put value in it.

    I do understand your wish to make sure the Genesis line, ie being able to use one base mesh to morph to either gender, various shapes, etc.. stay active and viable and am in full support of that.

    All of the reasons people are so loyal to Genesis 1 are valid reasons. Being able to share clothing, skins, even poses… The thing is, if one took poses for instance that were created for Hiro and applied them to V5 (much less a modified Freak, etc…) they didn’t match exactly. This is the tradeoff. We end up with generic poses for Genesis or specific spins on Genesis that still are ‘off’ to some extent when used on other characters. I ‘hope’ there is enough market for both concepts to remain viable and move forward.

    [Edit] This post was edited because it should have taken a different tone and for that I apologize.

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
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