RIP Men Content
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Yea, picked up The Beast, don't buy allot of fantasy stuff but this was exceptional plus I've been a fan of GoM since the Apollo Maximus days!
This was my previous point. Thanks for wording it so creatively. Affirmative action for male content.
BTW, I have not heard him mentioned on the forums, but there is a vendor called "dzheng" at Renderosity who makes male everyday clothes that autofit quite well to G3M (haven't tried them on G8M), and they have tons of morphs (although the majority of which are undress). They take shaders well, and the included textures convert to Iray and look believable. He's really hidden treasure, though there's been nothing new since Genesis days. Definitely worth a look because they are excellent.
It is a dangerous game to spend resources on items that don’t earn much to float business that does.
It’s a good recipe for going out of business.
Odd but I buy some really great male character products at other sites.... check around as daz is not the only show in town
Yes, I do buy more female items. But that's because I find more offered, and the more there is, the more probability is there that I find something I can use and of which I like the quality enough to shell out money.
But I do buy male content, and I bet I'm not the only one.
Genesis 2,3 and 8 male items owned: 1092
Genesis 2,3 and 8 female items owned: 1571
For the record, most of my grumpiness is directed toward Daz itself for not fully supporting a figure THEY created. I know Daz has an in-house modeler or two and it wouldn't kill em to put out a male outfit now and then I think. But maybe it will...*shrug*
Laurie
The orc for Mike 2 I believe it was. Man, I used that a lot back in the day. LOL
Laurie
Man, I miss dzheng. He made some great stuff.
Of the other thing, though - all of those items are easier to make than clothes. Unless it's a Stonemason level of detail and size, a prop set is 100% easier than a set of male clothing. Daz can't spare their now-sparse in-house artists for that three weeks or more to make a full male outfit. So most Daz Original clothing outfits aren't in-house, they're buyouts. That is, an artist makes something that might earn $X in their catalog over time, and Daz pays them $X/2 for it in a lump sum up front. The artist gambles that it wasn't going to do that great in catalog anyway, and Daz gambles that they can vastly exceed their payout in volume over time because they can price lower. Generally the more time spent on an outfit, the less an artist wants to take that buyout amount for it (there are some exceptions, artists that are hardcore veterans and can work VERY fast, but they are few in number).
I'd love some modern skimpwear made for G8M. Yeah, and I know about the loincloths and barbarian wear and undies already but DZheng made great stuff and their morphs were useful to.
The goal posts have moved very far if we go from there being some other site that releases quality male content without the same complaints about the ratio we see in the DAZ store, to saying, well some other sites sell some male stuff.
Thanks for the explanation, SY. I didn't consider that Daz might already be maximizing its personnel and resources to do what they're already doing. And, it's true, I want more Luthbel-level outfits (with morphs!), which I reckon takes more than three weeks; so, I'll just keep on doing the best I can with what is available.
I have found that I can superbly outfit my leading man with a casual wardrobe for a long story arc by relying heavily on the full catalogs of Luthbel, dzheng, with a few pieces by Luthbellina, Uzilite, halycyone, & IHKang/kang1hyun (of course, from all generations). And Yura has supplied the armor/actionwear quite well minus (sometimes) the textures. So, things are not desperate. But my supporting characters have to wear the two or three ensembles I can piece together from the big three's leftovers along with pieces that didn't suck from Pro Bundles.
For my part, I'd be perfectly willing to pay money for actual refits -- not reworkings or "inspired by" redos -- of *existing* outfits which were created for gen4. Or, for that matter earlier, as well as later, if the outfit was comparitively unique. Especially if originally built for different rigging, or weightmapping.
Which is to say pretty much anything historical, just for starters. But not limited to that. And not limited to only one gender, either.
Most artists probably aren't all that interested in reworking an older product, however. And a lot of the artists who did those products have disappeared, which makes the whole issue moot. There's also the question of whether customers would buy the same product for a different generation, too. They'll do it at PC pricing, but for PA items, probably not so much.
Does that old clothing even have thos JCMs & MCMs that are said to make rigging so difficult on the actual models? And if they don't that should make it not extremely difficult with those transfer utilities and morph loader pro. I guess it's still need fine tuning and weight map painting?
Only one of me? Are you serious Richard? Just look at this thread alone to see evidence of the fact I am not the only one. You can stay ignorant to the fact people are asking for content, if that aligns with your idea of what DAZ is, but simply the user base here requesting it shows otherwise. It is sad that every time threads like this appear, that we are all shot down with repetitive answers that the content just doesn't sell. Perhaps start offering the items that people are asking for. Not just generic terms of 'male content', but look in the Product Suggestions for more specific examples of what is being requested. I have yet to see any single response from the DAZ team that shows more than a cursory glance at the requests other than to shoot them down.
I'm not sure how that replies to my point, which was that if the issue is the number of people buying male content then the amount of male content that the current buyers in fact buy is not directly relevant.
Unfortunately this discussion does seem to go to extremes - an outsider reading thie thread might get the impression that there is no male content released, and that what is released is poor quality. There also seems to be a tendency to believe that there's willful denial of the demand for male content. None of this is true. There is less male cntent released than female, the quality (depending on how you measure it) does vary across both male and female content, but it remains true that many PAs do release stuff for the males, generally comensurate with the content they make for females, and that the PAs are basing their judgement of the economics on their and their colleague's experience.
Understand the margins returned on male content is MUCH lower than female.. so the risk is there where people just take the male item and put it on a site (as soon as it's released) where some will download it for free. Keep in mind that sometimes it's not just a lost sale, but those that didn't intend on buying anything in the first place. This is all part of that "increasing the buying pool of people wanting male content". But I can remember many times where I got emails and PMs asking for help on some of my products, and from what they had said, I knew the product was pirated because i had fixed an issue previously on it, and I just directed them to the store to download the update.. which of course they would actually have to buy if they wanted it.
I would add Lee Bowes-Russel on patreon to the male content list. He’s making some fun clothing and is going to release some underwear for G8m soon...
There also is Cgbytes which has a few items but I consider it renderotica-lite in theme and content
There is also uzilite who sells and makes his own garments at his own store and through his Facebook account.
The point is that it doesn't matter how passionately people care about it, we are still only going to be buying one of an item. So even if there are people buying every male add-on that comes out, that doesn't say anything about whether there is, in total, more people buying male content than female content.
Honestly though, what is it people think? Male clothing sells really well, it's the same return on investment as female clothing, and PAs aren't making them out of spite?
Sometimes the female content can be used by the males
If anyone auto-fits that, I would be glad to know how well it goes, and especially how the zipper morphs look. Definitely curious about this one.
Yep. This is where I'm at, probably moreso with this generation than any before (due to the wide cross-compatibility of G8) except maybe Genesis 2.
Autofit to basic G8M, with "Open Full" morph.
Thanks for the render, that helps. Appreciate it.
This would be a perfect example of what I was talking about earlier. A product that also could include a G8M version as well as a G8F version. In this case, the autofit seems to have went well, but of course you won't really know until you start bending joints and such.
But it could have been marketed as G8M and G8F, not just G8F, with any minor adjustments that might be needed for the male form incorporated into the package, maybe boosting the package price slightly to account for any extra work that might have been needed. If it appears to be autofitting really well already, might as well spend the extra 15 minutes to include a G8M version, which shouldn't require much work at all.
Or, if there are any issues with the autofit, again since everything is 'built' already, spending a few minutes to package an addon that corrects these issues, and selling the 'male expansion' for some reasonable price seems easy enough. Plus you could incorporate 'male colors' into the product while you are at it, although this might apply more to the texture addon package, rather than the base product.
The time investment required versus the additional income from the male outfit buyers, well i think your 'additional time spent vs dollars earned' ratio would actually be at least equal to (and possibly even greater than) what you are already earning off of the female version.
Of course, if it autofits perfectly, even in various poses, well just market it as 'also works for G8M with autofit'. This'd be one outfit that I'd comfortably count in both columns, due to the 'unisex' nature of the outift.
TJ, you can see from the image I posted that there is some deformation of the suit near the middle of the chest - which is not always there, depending on the pose. Also, having put the figure and suit through all the G8M Basic poses, there is some poke through and deformation here and there, but nothing extreme, as far as I can tell, so it's not perfect, but easily adjusted.
Trying again even though some people obviously don't want to understand: refiting a female item to a male figure is not a 15 minutes work. At all.
Even without counting JCM, the main outfit in that particular item includes around 40 adjustment morphs which will most probably have to be modified to account for the difference in base shape, custom morphs for a dozen base morphs (I'm not counting the 20 breast morphs), and support for 16 G8F named shapes. Do you really think than just a 15 minutes work is going to magically transform that in matching morphs for G8M?
And that's assuming that basic rigging with transfer utility works well enough to not require rigging adjustments.
I was going to stay out of this but I've got a few observations.
There's a lot that goes into determining how well items sell, it's not just the buyers.
1. Daz pushes and increases the likelihood of certain content selling over other content. Sales are manipulated based on how it is marketed. And this was even pointed out on numerous threads at the time it was happening, how the promo offerings were not on par during mens' content sales. It doesn't happen every time, but enough we commented on it. There's also been good promo offerings, I'm not saying there hasn't been.
But for instance, the female items might get a buy two and get more of a discount on BOTH NEW ITEMS whereas men's content get lame offers like "hey, get some more free Generation Four items." (You know, the same ones that have been offered over and over again? Yeah, those.) So then the male content doesn't sell as well for that particular sale.
2. And all those popup ads throughout the internet? I see 2-5x of those for every ONE male.
3. And my main beef- that only 8% of the buyers are forum members. If you're measuring something, use the right yardstick. It's not how many people are buying who are or aren't on the forums- IT'S HOW MUCH THEY BUY. You're supposed to be looking at SALES, not NUMBER OF PEOPLE. Statistics 101. Measure what you're supposed to measure!
On any given day, forum members who participate (many daily) get:
1. better information
2. See more renders and impulse buy
3. recommend products which generate more sales- from oh yes, forum members again. Not the clueless people not on the forums.
4. told about the better deals
5. know when the pages are working correctly AND WE THEN CONTINUE TO SHOP. Whereas non-forum members give up, rightly so.
If you measure PROPERLY, aka the sales and not the number of people not on the forums buying vs the forum buyers- then discuss the number of SALES from forum members, not the number of forum members. People would focus on there's only 1 of me and 20 of them, yet I know I easily outspend 20 non-forum people (putting it mildly) on a regular basis.
Unless Daz can state the money spent by forum vs non-forum members, they do not have a statistical reference at all. I am not saying they're wrong to compare the two groups, but compare what you're supposed to be comparing and that's the MONEY SPENT. Every time I hear that tired "most buyers aren't on the forums" I want to say "SO WHAT? WHAT IS EACH GROUP SPENDING?" If they provide 92% of the profits, and we only provide 8%, then fine. (Using the 8% of buyers are forum members statement.) Do they supply 92% of the profits? I can tell you right now, heck no.
All that said, the PAs are on the receiving end, they know what the bottom line is, and if it's due to all the factors listed above (plus more) such as promotional disparity (#1 and #2 above) and other reasons in the thread- they get the short end of it and have to cater to the bottom line. They don't control the promos or the marketing across the internet. They just know the female content is what pays the bills.
And we know how all this impacts to give the PAs those statistics/ sales. It's not JUST the buyers.
This is incredibly misinformed because you don't know how male products sell. They don't do it because the tactic **doesn't** work for men's items. Understand how discounts work: If I make a certain amount of money from a product at full price, I'd have to sell twice as many product if I offer it at 50%.. correct. If the pool is finite and you don't get twice as many customers, you just lost half your profits. Now imagine those sales that stack up to 60-70%... on products that are priced for a 30% discount.
This is what happens when men's items get heavily discounted because it's a smaller pool than those that buy female items. This is precisely why you don't see me participate in March Madness or the PA sale since the focus shifted from having a big discount to push back catalog to multiple sales year round with a steeper discount during these sales. This is why you would get DAZ O.. we that sell male items aren't trying to get shafted that bad.