Encryption discussions go here

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  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,122
    Daikatana said:

    I don't mind the whole "DAZ Connect" thing so much as it does have a benefit for our fellow users with limited bandwidth and data caps.  I don't even mind having to connect to the Internet the one time to authorize my installation of the Studio software.  Provided those things are correctly implemented and actually work as intended/ explained they won't be so bad.

    However I VERY MUCH mind the DRM measure (in this case encryption) and the loss of the ability to arrange my own directory structure.

    I'm sure that I am not the only person here who has lost things like music and e-books and in software that I have paid for due to various DRM measures in the past.  I understand that we have been told that there are measures in place to release everything in an unencrypted form should DAZ cease to exist as an entity.  However I have been told things like that before by other business entities and it never worked out well and I lost the ability to use something I purchased.  This is not acceptable.  It never will be acceptable.

    Also,  as an IT professional, I often have to spend hours dealing with making various software packages function IN SPITE OF their various implementations of DRM.  I don't want to have to do this in my off time to indulge in a hobby.  I fully understand that piracy is an issue but there are other ways to combat it that will not impact the user experience in a negative manner and will still preserve the profit margin.

    Also, I finally got a working directory structure going where I can find my content reliably.  I have absolutely ZERO desire to give that up.

    By all means continue to make the improvements in capability and functionality that we are seeing.  Those things are wanted, needed , and appreciated.  Please DO NOT force us to use your plan for a directory structure of make us have to fight with a DRM methodology.  Let the user remain in control of the experience.  

    Most of the encryption is gone. Only items specified DAZ connect only will be encrypted in the future.  So there's that...

    Also, there is some method for arranging items via some sort of file link... so while you may not be physically moving items around anymore, you can still arrange the content in your Content Library in a way that suits your needs. I don't really understand how this works.

    DAZ has been very responsive, more so than ever before I think, in trying to allay and respond to custom concerns in these regards.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 7,117
    Daikatana said:

    I don't mind the whole "DAZ Connect" thing so much as it does have a benefit for our fellow users with limited bandwidth and data caps.  I don't even mind having to connect to the Internet the one time to authorize my installation of the Studio software.  Provided those things are correctly implemented and actually work as intended/ explained they won't be so bad.

    However I VERY MUCH mind the DRM measure (in this case encryption) and the loss of the ability to arrange my own directory structure.

    I'm sure that I am not the only person here who has lost things like music and e-books and in software that I have paid for due to various DRM measures in the past.  I understand that we have been told that there are measures in place to release everything in an unencrypted form should DAZ cease to exist as an entity.  However I have been told things like that before by other business entities and it never worked out well and I lost the ability to use something I purchased.  This is not acceptable.  It never will be acceptable.

    Also,  as an IT professional, I often have to spend hours dealing with making various software packages function IN SPITE OF their various implementations of DRM.  I don't want to have to do this in my off time to indulge in a hobby.  I fully understand that piracy is an issue but there are other ways to combat it that will not impact the user experience in a negative manner and will still preserve the profit margin.

    Also, I finally got a working directory structure going where I can find my content reliably.  I have absolutely ZERO desire to give that up.

    By all means continue to make the improvements in capability and functionality that we are seeing.  Those things are wanted, needed , and appreciated.  Please DO NOT force us to use your plan for a directory structure of make us have to fight with a DRM methodology.  Let the user remain in control of the experience.  

    Most of the encryption is gone. Only items specified DAZ connect only will be encrypted in the future.  So there's that...

    Also, there is some method for arranging items via some sort of file link... so while you may not be physically moving items around anymore, you can still arrange the content in your Content Library in a way that suits your needs. I don't really understand how this works.

    DAZ has been very responsive, more so than ever before I think, in trying to allay and respond to custom concerns in these regards.

    Well initially they handled it badly; I seriously looked at alternatives because of that. Having said that, they've responded well and are engaging constructively with us on the forum. So it is encouraging.

    I hope the next beta is released soon, as this is unusable. I'm going to reinstall a disk image, then try 4.9 without the DAZ connect part. But only on the next beta release.

     

  • Moved some posts on encryption from the beta thread to here.

  • Daikatana said:

     

    Most of the encryption is gone. Only items specified DAZ connect only will be encrypted in the future.  So there's that...

    Also, there is some method for arranging items via some sort of file link... so while you may not be physically moving items around anymore, you can still arrange the content in your Content Library in a way that suits your needs. I don't really understand how this works.

    DAZ has been very responsive, more so than ever before I think, in trying to allay and respond to custom concerns in these regards.

    Yes, DAZ has been responsive.  I agree with this.

    However, I don't feel that removing "most" of the encryption is acceptable.  Even though it has been stated that currently there are no plans for DAZ Connect only content, "currently" could end tomorrow or at any point that someone at DAZ decides that things need to be DAZ Connect only.  What I suspect will happen is that as soon as the content creators and the people at DAZ get up to speed on the new system we will indeed start seeing Connect-only content.

    As to the file linking system for directory management, I could accept that. Not sure how its going to work with the content that I have purchasesd from other vendors but we shall see.  I am still thinking that I might just need a second library for non DAZ content.

    Yes, DAZ is listening but I am not sure its going to make a difference.  Yes they are responding with calming statements to try and reduce the upset and confusion.  These are positive steps they are taking.  BUT, in all the statements I have read, one essential thing is unchanging.  DAZ is still insisting on the encryption based DRM.     It ahs been proven over and over in the past that DRM methods, no matter how they are implemented do almost nothing to stop or even appreciably slow down software piracy.  Heck, Adobe Photoshop is one of the most pirated pieces of software ever and no matter what Adobe did, they could not make a dent in it.  They even went to a very inexpensive subscription model ( 9.99 per month for photoshop and lightroom bundled together) and thats STILL being pirated because a group of people banded together, reverse engineered the software and found a way to pirate the software.   All DRM does is cause the honest user to be inconvenienced.  Often the honest user is inconvenienced enough to walk away from the product altoghether which results in the loss of a revenue stream for the company.   Yes piracy is an issue but as someone who has lost access to purchased digital items such as music and e-books due to badly implemented DRM methodology, I am not in favor of DRM being used.  All it does is punish the honest user while giving the software pirates five minutes of challenge and a good laugh.

     

  • ColinFrenchColinFrench Posts: 201
    edited December 2015

    I'm late to this discussion, so please forgive the noob question -- if an item is encrypted, does that mean I can no longer pull out its diffuse texture file and modify it?

    Fairly often I create a re-color of an item's texture when the ones that come with it aren't exactly what I want. Sometimes this means changing or adding an opacity map too. While I can certainly understand a PA's desire to avoid being pirated, if encryption blocks this ability, I'll have second thoughts about buying that particular item.

     

    Post edited by ColinFrench on
  • lxlx Posts: 2,882
    edited December 2015

     

    I'm late to this discussion, so please forgive the noob question -- if an item is encrypted, does that mean I can no longer pull out its diffuse texture file and modify it?

    Fairly often I create a re-color of an item's texture when the ones that come with it aren't exactly what I want. Sometimes this means changing or adding an opacity map too. While I can certainly understand a PA's desire to avoid being pirated, if encryption blocks this ability, I'll have second thoughts about buying that particular item.

     

    Images remain accessible as normal - it's just the Daz format files which are individually encrypted. Connect stuff goes into a new folder though (it was data/cloud in your topmost library but I think it's changed since then.)

    Post edited by lx on
  • Ah good, that's a relief!

    Thanks for the quick reply.

  • Daikatana said:
    As to the file linking system for directory management, I could accept that. Not sure how its going to work with the content that I have purchasesd from other vendors but we shall see.  I am still thinking that I might just need a second library for non DAZ content.

    Content from other stores (or freebies, or created by you) won't be affected by Daz Connect.

  • GreeboGreebo Posts: 54

    So far I have not seen any intent by DAZ to clearly mark content that will only be available via Daz Connect when DS 4.9 replaces 4.8. - This may have been mentioned somewhere else, but I don't live on the forums so I might of missed something.

    The "Install Types" catagory did give info concerning the download types and I would ask that it is put back on the product pages so I can avoid returning items that are encrypted.

    My work machine is not connected to the net - Why should it be?

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    Greebo said:

    So far I have not seen any intent by DAZ to clearly mark content that will only be available via Daz Connect when DS 4.9 replaces 4.8. - This may have been mentioned somewhere else, but I don't live on the forums so I might of missed something.

    As of now there isn't any Connect only...and while at some time in the future there may be, it has been said that for now that will remain so.

  • GreeboGreebo Posts: 54

    Has I see it there is no "may be" about Connect only products, it's more a case of "when". I've seen plenty of flak and flame on the various forums and sites over this issue - When a business includes something as controversial as encryption in their content you can bet anything that it will be used. Sooner rather than later. 

    Any talk of non- encrypted zip versions of the Connect downloads, both available concurrently 'For The Same Product' is just so much smoke-screening IMHO. The same goes for "We currently have no plans..." Plans change, and often they change over-night.

    Anyway. Lets see how things stand 12 months from now...

    My main concern is a clear notification on the product page whether or not it is an encrypted download.

  • lxlx Posts: 2,882

    No one said anything about non-encrypted zip downloads of Connect content. They said there will be a way to download them manually as encrypted packages along with your key.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    lx said:

    No one said anything about non-encrypted zip downloads of Connect content. They said there will be a way to download them manually as encrypted packages along with your key.

    And DIM not content being not encrypted.  Connect is a separate feature than DIM.  They will both be ways of downloading content, but the packages/delivery will be different. 

    As of right now there is no Connect only content...and that is where the 'no immediate (or whatever was used so many pages ago)' plans/implementation date/time frame/etc for if (or when) there would be Connect only comes in.  Some speculated that G3M/M7 would be...obviously it isn't...so that one has passed without bringing about the dreaded 'Connect only'...so, if it happens it is not now.  And it is Connect content that is encrypted (and as to the exact contents of those packages that IS encrypted, I'm more than a bit fuzzy on), not the DIM content.

  • KeryaKerya Posts: 9,421

    They can not very well have Connect only content in the store yet, as the DazStudio version that uses Connect is still in Beta. ;o)

  • mjc1016 said:

    .. (and as to the exact contents of those packages that IS encrypted, I'm more than a bit fuzzy on)...

    The native files - .dsf, .duf and I think scripts, are encrypted - textures, Poser files, OBJ files etc. are not.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 7,117

    I have a hunch about the first product to be connect-only; not sure if I should share my opinion/guess or not.

    No plans... agree that that is a very emotive statement. Experience tells me that plans will exist now, very soon, or soon: certainly not so long from now. A company would be remiss if it failed to utilise a feature it had spent so much implementing.

    I hope they have any such products clearly marked, and will advise us that will happen.

    I'm curious though; how will we know if it is connect-only if the site doesn't state it?

    I won't be installing connect, so I presume its absence in DIM will be one such indication?

  • nicstt said:

    I have a hunch about the first product to be connect-only; not sure if I should share my opinion/guess or not.

    No plans... agree that that is a very emotive statement. Experience tells me that plans will exist now, very soon, or soon: certainly not so long from now. A company would be remiss if it failed to utilise a feature it had spent so much implementing.

    I hope they have any such products clearly marked, and will advise us that will happen.

    I'm curious though; how will we know if it is connect-only if the site doesn't state it?

    I won't be installing connect, so I presume its absence in DIM will be one such indication?

    It may well be stated on the product page - the fact that it isn't now, when there are no Connect-only items and 4.9 is in beta, doesn't mean it won't be once we have Connect-only items.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 7,117
    nicstt said:

    I have a hunch about the first product to be connect-only; not sure if I should share my opinion/guess or not.

    No plans... agree that that is a very emotive statement. Experience tells me that plans will exist now, very soon, or soon: certainly not so long from now. A company would be remiss if it failed to utilise a feature it had spent so much implementing.

    I hope they have any such products clearly marked, and will advise us that will happen.

    I'm curious though; how will we know if it is connect-only if the site doesn't state it?

    I won't be installing connect, so I presume its absence in DIM will be one such indication?

    It may well be stated on the product page - the fact that it isn't now, when there are no Connect-only items and 4.9 is in beta, doesn't mean it won't be once we have Connect-only items.

    True enough.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    mjc1016 said:

    .. (and as to the exact contents of those packages that IS encrypted, I'm more than a bit fuzzy on)...

    The native files - .dsf, .duf and I think scripts, are encrypted - textures, Poser files, OBJ files etc. are not.

    Most of the scripts, available through the store have been encrypted for quite a while already...

  • mambanegramambanegra Posts: 426
    edited December 2015

    I just want to toss my name into the hat that says, "I don't use the content database, and manually rearrange my files according to my own needs." It sounds like that might have been addressed...I'll see. If it has to reside in a completely seperate runtime, then I'll probably not use it, since my organization is partly designed to eliminate the hassles of having to jump around and waste lots of time clicking. 

    I'm not a fan of DRM, but more importanly, it seems likely that your use of it will completely mess up my current workflow. Right now, I download content on my iMac, set up my renders and save them so that I can then render them using a windows computer that has a decent nVidia card. I use robocopy on the windows computer to keep it's local copy identical so that my saved files work flawlessly (and provides me with an additional backup in case of a diskfailure). That machine does nothing else except renders stuff (though, I might install a few games that run poorly on my mac). If these files are not account based but HW GUID based, then this will not work for that content.

    Also, downloading the content separately on both computers seems like a hassle on my end, but even worse, it will increase our download amount, which is already high thanks to lots of netflix streaming, and we do have a cap. If I end up paying more to my ISP use DAZ content, then I'll definitely keep that in mind when making future purchases.

     

    Post edited by mambanegra on
  • lxlx Posts: 2,882

    There are still physical files - I'm not 100% on this but you should be able to physically copy the files from the mac to the PC via local network and then only need to download your key on your PC (assuming you can run it on 2 - not sure about that.) It'll still probably be a hassle of course but it should be doable without double downloading.

  • lx said:

    There are still physical files - I'm not 100% on this but you should be able to physically copy the files from the mac to the PC via local network and then only need to download your key on your PC (assuming you can run it on 2 - not sure about that.) It'll still probably be a hassle of course but it should be doable without double downloading.

    Well, as it is right now, I just make the copy (or even render directly off the mounted runtime from my mac...both work about as well) and it works with almost no real effort on my part. Adding in the extra step of having to activate each purchase on the other machine could become really annoying. Reminiscent of those awful installers which required click-click-click over pages of junk, when renderosity let me just extract zip files.

    If they tied the product encryption to my account, I wouldn't be so concerned, but if it's machine based...that's a real nightmare when it's time to get a new computer if you have a lot of Connect based content, since it won't be portable to the new machine.

  • lxlx Posts: 2,882

    Yup, you'll probably have to connect each time you get something new and if you had a new PC, but since it's just one login, the new PC part shouldn't really be an issue. The rest is annoying as hell though.

  • jpb06tjpb06t Posts: 272

    Since 4.9 is in RC state, rush to make multiple backups of 4.8 since, as you all know well, older versions become unavailable as soon as the new one is released.

  • lx said:

    There are still physical files - I'm not 100% on this but you should be able to physically copy the files from the mac to the PC via local network and then only need to download your key on your PC (assuming you can run it on 2 - not sure about that.) It'll still probably be a hassle of course but it should be doable without double downloading.

    Well, as it is right now, I just make the copy (or even render directly off the mounted runtime from my mac...both work about as well) and it works with almost no real effort on my part. Adding in the extra step of having to activate each purchase on the other machine could become really annoying. Reminiscent of those awful installers which required click-click-click over pages of junk, when renderosity let me just extract zip files.

    If they tied the product encryption to my account, I wouldn't be so concerned, but if it's machine based...that's a real nightmare when it's time to get a new computer if you have a lot of Connect based content, since it won't be portable to the new machine.

    There has been some discussion of people using multiple machines, and I think it amounted to "you will be OK" though I can't recal the details. The amount of content doesn't matter, just register the new machine and your backed-up Connect-only content will work.

  • lx said:

    There are still physical files - I'm not 100% on this but you should be able to physically copy the files from the mac to the PC via local network and then only need to download your key on your PC (assuming you can run it on 2 - not sure about that.) It'll still probably be a hassle of course but it should be doable without double downloading.

    Well, as it is right now, I just make the copy (or even render directly off the mounted runtime from my mac...both work about as well) and it works with almost no real effort on my part. Adding in the extra step of having to activate each purchase on the other machine could become really annoying. Reminiscent of those awful installers which required click-click-click over pages of junk, when renderosity let me just extract zip files.

    If they tied the product encryption to my account, I wouldn't be so concerned, but if it's machine based...that's a real nightmare when it's time to get a new computer if you have a lot of Connect based content, since it won't be portable to the new machine.

    There has been some discussion of people using multiple machines, and I think it amounted to "you will be OK" though I can't recal the details. The amount of content doesn't matter, just register the new machine and your backed-up Connect-only content will work.

    If that's the case, then I don't think this would affect my willingness to buy Connect only products. However, if it were to become a hassle to be dealt with for each new purchase, it could very well drive me towards preferring other places over DAZ for making new purchases once these changes were to become standard. 

    From a usability standpoint, I used to use Vue and their store was integrated into their library. I never purchased content from the library, but there were a few "directories" where there were a lot more items for sale than what came with the software and it turned into a hassle trying to find something that would actually load. Hopefully the storefront can either be turned off or will be entirely separate from the regular content. 

  • DAZ_RawbDAZ_Rawb Posts: 541
    lx said:

    There are still physical files - I'm not 100% on this but you should be able to physically copy the files from the mac to the PC via local network and then only need to download your key on your PC (assuming you can run it on 2 - not sure about that.) It'll still probably be a hassle of course but it should be doable without double downloading.

    Well, as it is right now, I just make the copy (or even render directly off the mounted runtime from my mac...both work about as well) and it works with almost no real effort on my part. Adding in the extra step of having to activate each purchase on the other machine could become really annoying. Reminiscent of those awful installers which required click-click-click over pages of junk, when renderosity let me just extract zip files.

    If they tied the product encryption to my account, I wouldn't be so concerned, but if it's machine based...that's a real nightmare when it's time to get a new computer if you have a lot of Connect based content, since it won't be portable to the new machine.

    There has been some discussion of people using multiple machines, and I think it amounted to "you will be OK" though I can't recal the details. The amount of content doesn't matter, just register the new machine and your backed-up Connect-only content will work.

    The details are this:

    Any content encrypted on your system is encrypted using a per-user key so content can be shared between machines on the same account without problems. Your per-user key is encrypted with a machine specific key to store it locally, as is your saved email address and password (if you have those boxes checked when you login). So if you restore from a backup onto a new machine you will have to login once in order to get your user key but all of your encrypted content will work without having to download anything.

     

    Additionally if you do use multiple machines the server side of Daz Connect will typically allow more than one active connection from a user. So if you are one of many users that use a laptop for posing and preparing the scene and a desktop for rendering you should be able to leave those both connected at the same time. Our documentation on this only specifies that you can have one connection at a time because if this is abused we may limit individual accounts.

  • DAZ_Rawb said:
    lx said:

    There are still physical files - I'm not 100% on this but you should be able to physically copy the files from the mac to the PC via local network and then only need to download your key on your PC (assuming you can run it on 2 - not sure about that.) It'll still probably be a hassle of course but it should be doable without double downloading.

    Well, as it is right now, I just make the copy (or even render directly off the mounted runtime from my mac...both work about as well) and it works with almost no real effort on my part. Adding in the extra step of having to activate each purchase on the other machine could become really annoying. Reminiscent of those awful installers which required click-click-click over pages of junk, when renderosity let me just extract zip files.

    If they tied the product encryption to my account, I wouldn't be so concerned, but if it's machine based...that's a real nightmare when it's time to get a new computer if you have a lot of Connect based content, since it won't be portable to the new machine.

    There has been some discussion of people using multiple machines, and I think it amounted to "you will be OK" though I can't recal the details. The amount of content doesn't matter, just register the new machine and your backed-up Connect-only content will work.

    The details are this:

    Any content encrypted on your system is encrypted using a per-user key so content can be shared between machines on the same account without problems. Your per-user key is encrypted with a machine specific key to store it locally, as is your saved email address and password (if you have those boxes checked when you login). So if you restore from a backup onto a new machine you will have to login once in order to get your user key but all of your encrypted content will work without having to download anything.

     

    Additionally if you do use multiple machines the server side of Daz Connect will typically allow more than one active connection from a user. So if you are one of many users that use a laptop for posing and preparing the scene and a desktop for rendering you should be able to leave those both connected at the same time. Our documentation on this only specifies that you can have one connection at a time because if this is abused we may limit individual accounts.

    This sounds good as long as it actually works the way that you plan it to. It does sound like you guys are doing your best to make it as painless as possible and I appreciate that very much.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 7,117
    DAZ_Rawb said:
    lx said:

    There are still physical files - I'm not 100% on this but you should be able to physically copy the files from the mac to the PC via local network and then only need to download your key on your PC (assuming you can run it on 2 - not sure about that.) It'll still probably be a hassle of course but it should be doable without double downloading.

    Well, as it is right now, I just make the copy (or even render directly off the mounted runtime from my mac...both work about as well) and it works with almost no real effort on my part. Adding in the extra step of having to activate each purchase on the other machine could become really annoying. Reminiscent of those awful installers which required click-click-click over pages of junk, when renderosity let me just extract zip files.

    If they tied the product encryption to my account, I wouldn't be so concerned, but if it's machine based...that's a real nightmare when it's time to get a new computer if you have a lot of Connect based content, since it won't be portable to the new machine.

    There has been some discussion of people using multiple machines, and I think it amounted to "you will be OK" though I can't recal the details. The amount of content doesn't matter, just register the new machine and your backed-up Connect-only content will work.

    The details are this:

    Any content encrypted on your system is encrypted using a per-user key so content can be shared between machines on the same account without problems. Your per-user key is encrypted with a machine specific key to store it locally, as is your saved email address and password (if you have those boxes checked when you login). So if you restore from a backup onto a new machine you will have to login once in order to get your user key but all of your encrypted content will work without having to download anything.

     

    Additionally if you do use multiple machines the server side of Daz Connect will typically allow more than one active connection from a user. So if you are one of many users that use a laptop for posing and preparing the scene and a desktop for rendering you should be able to leave those both connected at the same time. Our documentation on this only specifies that you can have one connection at a time because if this is abused we may limit individual accounts.

    Should be able to? Why the qualification? I would hope that there is no should at all, although why I'm bothering asking as no intention of using. :)

  • nicstt said:
    DAZ_Rawb said:
    lx said:

    There are still physical files - I'm not 100% on this but you should be able to physically copy the files from the mac to the PC via local network and then only need to download your key on your PC (assuming you can run it on 2 - not sure about that.) It'll still probably be a hassle of course but it should be doable without double downloading.

    Well, as it is right now, I just make the copy (or even render directly off the mounted runtime from my mac...both work about as well) and it works with almost no real effort on my part. Adding in the extra step of having to activate each purchase on the other machine could become really annoying. Reminiscent of those awful installers which required click-click-click over pages of junk, when renderosity let me just extract zip files.

    If they tied the product encryption to my account, I wouldn't be so concerned, but if it's machine based...that's a real nightmare when it's time to get a new computer if you have a lot of Connect based content, since it won't be portable to the new machine.

    There has been some discussion of people using multiple machines, and I think it amounted to "you will be OK" though I can't recal the details. The amount of content doesn't matter, just register the new machine and your backed-up Connect-only content will work.

    The details are this:

    Any content encrypted on your system is encrypted using a per-user key so content can be shared between machines on the same account without problems. Your per-user key is encrypted with a machine specific key to store it locally, as is your saved email address and password (if you have those boxes checked when you login). So if you restore from a backup onto a new machine you will have to login once in order to get your user key but all of your encrypted content will work without having to download anything.

     

    Additionally if you do use multiple machines the server side of Daz Connect will typically allow more than one active connection from a user. So if you are one of many users that use a laptop for posing and preparing the scene and a desktop for rendering you should be able to leave those both connected at the same time. Our documentation on this only specifies that you can have one connection at a time because if this is abused we may limit individual accounts.

    Should be able to? Why the qualification? I would hope that there is no should at all, although why I'm bothering asking as no intention of using. :)

    I understood that to mean that as long as things don't change due to folks taking advantage of the loop hole, people using more than one machine will not have any trouble. But, that's purely my interpretation. 

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