Encryption discussions go here

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  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,072

    Hasn't most of this discussion become moot?

    I thought that I had read, due to all the brou-haha, DAZ would not be encrypting content at this time? Did I read incorrectly?

    And the store part... um... close the pane and its not in your face. The part about the in-app shopping I really don't understand. Its inobtrusive and you don't ever have to use it. I couldn't even FIND it when I first went looking for it. Granted, these are not micro-transactions, but... this is just one face of the micro-transaction market that is everywhere.

    Look, I know we all have our feelings and our way of doing things... but the venom and negativity has just been staggering.  This is why things don't evolve: being resistant to change. If people had been this resistant to change when Studio first came out, we'd all be stuck still using that other software.

    Couldn't we all take a deep breath and allow this stuff to develop without all the screaming and threats? I am not saying you shouldn't protest if you don't like the direction, because you absolutely should; and if you really really don't like it, the best thing you can do is to take your business elsewhere, nothing speaks to a business like your dollar.  But... for the time being, couldn't we just keep the speculation to a minimum and work to develop the software and services we'd like to have rather than just blasting what we don't like?

  • edited November 2015
    Kerya said:

    Wellllll - if you bought PoserPro 11 - you are in the same boat as with encrypted DRM content. Which is why I don't buy it ... even when I do like DazStudio AND Poser ...

    SmithMicro assured a poison pill against the "internet connection of the computer your Poser is installed on or deactivation of software" in case they are going down the drain too. Same scenario as yours.

    I don't buy either - neither DRM content nor Poser.

    Well... the matter of activating the main software is one thing. There's that in Poser, as well as in DS. The fact remains that whe I buy stuff  at RDNA or Renderosity, I don't have to go through a DRM to make it work in Poser. Having to buy and install even a damn pair of sneakers through DazConnect and being forced to install it where you're told to "because it delivers a better experience" is bullshit and we all know it. Whenever a company wants to twist your arm into sucking up the DRM poison, they tell you that there'll be an experience improvement. It's just as if you got kidnapped by a weirdo, locked up into a cellar and had a steel collar fit around your neck with a chain to the wall, then to hear said weirdo tell you "On the bright side, I chose nice pastel colors for the walls and look! your collar has a cute little bell on it and I engraved it with your name!" It can happen, but despite what the weirdo says, you're unlikely to *enjoy* that "experience to its fullest.

     

    Post edited by second.technician.rimmer_9571136c47 on
  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 6,817
    edited November 2015

    Hasn't most of this discussion become moot?

    I thought that I had read, due to all the brou-haha, DAZ would not be encrypting content at this time? Did I read incorrectly?

    And the store part... um... close the pane and its not in your face. The part about the in-app shopping I really don't understand. Its inobtrusive and you don't ever have to use it. I couldn't even FIND it when I first went looking for it. Granted, these are not micro-transactions, but... this is just one face of the micro-transaction market that is everywhere.

    Look, I know we all have our feelings and our way of doing things... but the venom and negativity has just been staggering.  This is why things don't evolve: being resistant to change. If people had been this resistant to change when Studio first came out, we'd all be stuck still using that other software.

    Couldn't we all take a deep breath and allow this stuff to develop without all the screaming and threats? I am not saying you shouldn't protest if you don't like the direction, because you absolutely should; and if you really really don't like it, the best thing you can do is to take your business elsewhere, nothing speaks to a business like your dollar.  But... for the time being, couldn't we just keep the speculation to a minimum and work to develop the software and services we'd like to have rather than just blasting what we don't like?

    No it isn't because people don't want it, or don't like change; read the post before yours; the poster has just been told how long he has to retrieve backups from a service he pays for. He (or she) like many of us, is sick of being burnt.

    I'll post it below, just for clarity and to avoid misunderstanding.

    Byrdie said:

    Here's another reason I am avoiding anything to do with "cloud" services like Adobe's -- this morning I got a totally out-of-the-blue message from my cable company telling me they were discontinuing their personal cloud storage and backup service and I have 90 days (actually less, since the notice was sent out 4 days after the date given) to download all of my files before they close and wipe all accounts. Mind you, this isn't a free storage service they're talking about, that I could understand. And no explanation given either, just some "As the industry continues to evolve, so too does our product line up" BS. So from now on if I can't have my stuff installed and backed up exactly where I want, to use in whatever manner I please that's within the law, then this little fishie ain't gonna bite, no matter how tempting the bait. Clouds, subscription services and DRM of any kind for any reason are things not to be trusted any farther than you can throw 'em. Which obviously you can't. 

     

     

    Post edited by nicstt on
  • Byrdie said:

    Here's another reason I am avoiding anything to do with "cloud" services like Adobe's -- this morning I got a totally out-of-the-blue message from my cable company telling me they were discontinuing their personal cloud storage and backup service and I have 90 days (actually less, since the notice was sent out 4 days after the date given) to download all of my files before they close and wipe all accounts. Mind you, this isn't a free storage service they're talking about, that I could understand. And no explanation given either, just some "As the industry continues to evolve, so too does our product line up" BS. So from now on if I can't have my stuff installed and backed up exactly where I want, to use in whatever manner I please that's within the law, then this little fishie ain't gonna bite, no matter how tempting the bait. Clouds, subscription services and DRM of any kind for any reason are things not to be trusted any farther than you can throw 'em. Which obviously you can't. 

    But this isn't a cloud service - you need to log-in once to let the system know about your account, and the moment you need to log-in to download content (but that will change). You don't, however, need to be logged-in to use the content - everything is local.

  • I thought that I had read, due to all the brou-haha, DAZ would not be encrypting content at this time? Did I read incorrectly?

    It has, in the first post of this thread, been said that content that is currently enencrytped, or is released unencrytped, via DIM will also be unencrypted when install via Connect. It hasn't been said that nothing will be Connect-only, and encrypted.

  • MorpheonMorpheon Posts: 738
    edited November 2015
    Kerya said:

    Wellllll - if you bought PoserPro 11 - you are in the same boat as with encrypted DRM content. Which is why I don't buy it ... even when I do like DazStudio AND Poser ...

    SmithMicro assured a poison pill against the "internet connection of the computer your Poser is installed on or deactivation of software" in case they are going down the drain too. Same scenario as yours.

    I don't buy either - neither DRM content nor Poser.

    And that conversation has already been had many times over. There's a huge difference between program verification and activation (which has been with us for about as long as we've had personal computers) and content encryption. If Smith Micro tanks, I've got a six month window to get up to speed with some other software package, port what I can (and there's a lot of programs that can use Poser content, at least in some fashion), and know that at least a good chunk or more of my content is still usable in an earlier version of Poser. If DAZ tanks, any encrypted content I may have in my library is usable only in the version of DS that's currently installed in on my machine, is completely unusable in an older version of DS (because the older versions can't read encrypted content), and it can't be moved to another machine, should that become necessary. On the one hand, the ability to salvage some value vs. the loss of all value on the other -- that's a pretty big difference. Poser doesn't encrypt my content, and I don't trust DAZ to unlock theirs in the case of an emergency.    

     

     

     

    Post edited by Morpheon on
  • DAZ_RawbDAZ_Rawb Posts: 511
    Morpheon said:
    Kerya said:

    Wellllll - if you bought PoserPro 11 - you are in the same boat as with encrypted DRM content. Which is why I don't buy it ... even when I do like DazStudio AND Poser ...

    SmithMicro assured a poison pill against the "internet connection of the computer your Poser is installed on or deactivation of software" in case they are going down the drain too. Same scenario as yours.

    I don't buy either - neither DRM content nor Poser.

    And that conversation has already been had many times over. There's a huge difference between program verification and activation (which has been with us for about as long as we've had personal computers) and content encryption. If Smith Micro tanks, I've got a six month window to get up to speed with some other software package, port what I can (and there's a lot of programs that can use Poser content, at least in some fashion), and know that at least a good chunk or more of my content is still usable in an earlier version of Poser. If DAZ tanks, any encrypted content I may have in my library is usable only in the version of DS that's currently installed in on my machine, is completely unusable in an older version of DS (becuase they can't read encrypted content), and it can't be moved to another machine. That's a pretty big difference. Poser doesn't encrypt my content, and I don't trust DAZ to unlock theirs in the case of an emergency.    

    The good news is that even if Daz switches over to Ontario style BBQ so quickly we don't have time release the decryption software the exporters will still work.

     

    So if Daz disappeared into a very confusing world of meat you could still export all of your content to whatever format your new software understands plus since the key never needs to be revalidated on that machine you would have as much time as you want. 

  • MorpheonMorpheon Posts: 738
    I thought that I had read, due to all the brou-haha, DAZ would not be encrypting content at this time? Did I read incorrectly?

    It has, in the first post of this thread, been said that content that is currently enencrytped, or is released unencrytped, via DIM will also be unencrypted when install via Connect. It hasn't been said that nothing will be Connect-only, and encrypted.

    What has been said previously by DAZ admins is that DAZ Connect encrypts key files of everything that passes through it; and in this thread, it has been stated that currently, DC does not have the capability to distinguish between the two classes of content (previously-released unencrypted vs. soon-to-be-available DAZ Connect-only) -- that that functionality has yet to be coded. That would mean that -- as it stands now -- downloading older content through DAZ Connect would result in that content being encrypted. If that's not correct, please tell me where I have it wrong.  

    It hasn't been said that nothing will be Connect-only, and encrypted.

    It's already been stated that at some point, DC-only content will start to appear, and that that new content WILL be encrypted. It's not at all hard to imagine a point at which ALL content is DC-only and encrypted -- it's just a question of how fast DAZ can make that happen. If -- as DAZ claims -- this is all being done to combat piracy (and to "improve the user experience", of course), it would be the logical thing to do.

  • DAZ_RawbDAZ_Rawb Posts: 511
    Morpheon said:
    I thought that I had read, due to all the brou-haha, DAZ would not be encrypting content at this time? Did I read incorrectly?

    It has, in the first post of this thread, been said that content that is currently enencrytped, or is released unencrytped, via DIM will also be unencrypted when install via Connect. It hasn't been said that nothing will be Connect-only, and encrypted.

    What has been said previously by DAZ admins is that DAZ Connect encrypts key files of everything that passes through it; and in this thread, it has been stated that currently, DC does not have the capability to distinguish between the two classes of content (previously-released unencrypted vs. soon-to-be-available DAZ Connect-only) -- that that functionality has yet to be coded. That would mean that -- as it stands now -- downloading older content through DAZ Connect would result in that content being encrypted. If that's not correct, please tell me where I have it wrong.  

    4.9.0.36 (the last beta, the current one is 4.9.0.4something), added the code to do exactly that. I posed it in this thread about two pages back. It also added the ability to make link files so you can organize your content on disk while still getting all the updates and such from Daz Connect.

    Morpheon said:

    It hasn't been said that nothing will be Connect-only, and encrypted.

    It's already been stated that at some point, DC-only content will start to appear, and that that new content WILL be encrypted. It's not at all hard to imagine a point at which ALL content is DC-only and encrypted -- it's just a question of how fast DAZ can make that happen. If -- as DAZ claims -- this is all being done to combat piracy (and to "improve the user experience", of course), it would be the logical thing to do.

    Daz Connect's primary purpose is to make it easier for new customers to get going with Daz Studio. By far the number one complaint we have from new customers is how difficult it is to find and load their content. Have you tried it yourself yet?

  • KeryaKerya Posts: 9,397

    Hasn't most of this discussion become moot?

    I thought that I had read, due to all the brou-haha, DAZ would not be encrypting content at this time? Did I read incorrectly?

    And the store part... um... close the pane and its not in your face. The part about the in-app shopping I really don't understand. Its inobtrusive and you don't ever have to use it. I couldn't even FIND it when I first went looking for it. Granted, these are not micro-transactions, but... this is just one face of the micro-transaction market that is everywhere.

    Look, I know we all have our feelings and our way of doing things... but the venom and negativity has just been staggering.  This is why things don't evolve: being resistant to change. If people had been this resistant to change when Studio first came out, we'd all be stuck still using that other software.

    Couldn't we all take a deep breath and allow this stuff to develop without all the screaming and threats? I am not saying you shouldn't protest if you don't like the direction, because you absolutely should; and if you really really don't like it, the best thing you can do is to take your business elsewhere, nothing speaks to a business like your dollar.  But... for the time being, couldn't we just keep the speculation to a minimum and work to develop the software and services we'd like to have rather than just blasting what we don't like?

     

    I am sorry - but this IS the thread for voicing opinions about encryption ...

    it was splitted out from the main thread about the new Beta just for this reason.

    So negativity concerning encryption is correctly voiced here.

    It's not being resistant to change (I like Bryce, DazStudio, Poser and Vue - I am not singleminded ...), it is about a change I (and obviously some others) resent.

  • KeryaKerya Posts: 9,397
    DAZ_Rawb said:

    The good news is that even if Daz switches over to Ontario style BBQ so quickly we don't have time release the decryption software the exporters will still work.

     

    So if Daz disappeared into a very confusing world of meat you could still export all of your content to whatever format your new software understands plus since the key never needs to be revalidated on that machine you would have as much time as you want. 

    Thanks for the fun reading. *grin*

    My concern is "since the key never needs to be revalidated on that machine" - yes, but what if the machine goes down the drain (computer parts BBQ?) and I get a new one?

    I am doing backups for the installers (zips nowadays, something I AM very happy about) on external harddrives - but with encrypted content, that would not help me with installing things on a new machine.

     

  • DAZ_RawbDAZ_Rawb Posts: 511
    Kerya said:
    DAZ_Rawb said:

    The good news is that even if Daz switches over to Ontario style BBQ so quickly we don't have time release the decryption software the exporters will still work.

     

    So if Daz disappeared into a very confusing world of meat you could still export all of your content to whatever format your new software understands plus since the key never needs to be revalidated on that machine you would have as much time as you want. 

    Thanks for the fun reading. *grin*

    My concern is "since the key never needs to be revalidated on that machine" - yes, but what if the machine goes down the drain (computer parts BBQ?) and I get a new one?

    I am doing backups for the installers (zips nowadays, something I AM very happy about) on external harddrives - but with encrypted content, that would not help me with installing things on a new machine.

     

    Actually, that's incorrect. The encrypted content is encrypted to your user, the machine information is only used to encrypt your user specific key when it is stored on your machine. This would allow you to restore from a backup without having to redownload anything. It also allows you to share an external drive / network share between machines. Additionally we have implemented but have not made it visible in the product library to allow for offline package installs so you can back those up and reinstall from them later. There were many revisions of the encryption design in order to make sure that it would be as painless as possible.

  • DAZ_RawbDAZ_Rawb Posts: 511
    Kerya said:

    Hasn't most of this discussion become moot?

    I thought that I had read, due to all the brou-haha, DAZ would not be encrypting content at this time? Did I read incorrectly?

    And the store part... um... close the pane and its not in your face. The part about the in-app shopping I really don't understand. Its inobtrusive and you don't ever have to use it. I couldn't even FIND it when I first went looking for it. Granted, these are not micro-transactions, but... this is just one face of the micro-transaction market that is everywhere.

    Look, I know we all have our feelings and our way of doing things... but the venom and negativity has just been staggering.  This is why things don't evolve: being resistant to change. If people had been this resistant to change when Studio first came out, we'd all be stuck still using that other software.

    Couldn't we all take a deep breath and allow this stuff to develop without all the screaming and threats? I am not saying you shouldn't protest if you don't like the direction, because you absolutely should; and if you really really don't like it, the best thing you can do is to take your business elsewhere, nothing speaks to a business like your dollar.  But... for the time being, couldn't we just keep the speculation to a minimum and work to develop the software and services we'd like to have rather than just blasting what we don't like?

     

    I am sorry - but this IS the thread for voicing opinions about encryption ...

    it was splitted out from the main thread about the new Beta just for this reason.

    So negativity concerning encryption is correctly voiced here.

    It's not being resistant to change (I like Bryce, DazStudio, Poser and Vue - I am not singleminded ...), it is about a change I (and obviously some others) resent.

    This is totally correct. This is the thread to bring up concerns with the new encryption system that Daz Connect is capable of bringing.

     

    I want to thank all of you for keeping the discussion about encryption and all of that stuff over here and out of the beta threads. This beta went out a little earlier than most betas so everyone could have plenty of time to give us their feedback and for people to test the system out for themselves. I thank the product team for that decision and I hope that is shows how we are trying our hardest over here to be upfront and direct about our plans and our future plans.

  • KeryaKerya Posts: 9,397
    DAZ_Rawb said:
    Kerya said:
    DAZ_Rawb said:

    The good news is that even if Daz switches over to Ontario style BBQ so quickly we don't have time release the decryption software the exporters will still work.

     

    So if Daz disappeared into a very confusing world of meat you could still export all of your content to whatever format your new software understands plus since the key never needs to be revalidated on that machine you would have as much time as you want. 

    Thanks for the fun reading. *grin*

    My concern is "since the key never needs to be revalidated on that machine" - yes, but what if the machine goes down the drain (computer parts BBQ?) and I get a new one?

    I am doing backups for the installers (zips nowadays, something I AM very happy about) on external harddrives - but with encrypted content, that would not help me with installing things on a new machine.

     

    Actually, that's incorrect. The encrypted content is encrypted to your user, the machine information is only used to encrypt your user specific key when it is stored on your machine. This would allow you to restore from a backup without having to redownload anything. It also allows you to share an external drive / network share between machines. Additionally we have implemented but have not made it visible in the product library to allow for offline package installs so you can back those up and reinstall from them later. There were many revisions of the encryption design in order to make sure that it would be as painless as possible.

    So by backing up that user specific key and plonking it in a correct directory on a new machine would be enough to be able to restore my content?

    That still doesn't help me with my concern that I am not able to correct or tinker with encrypted files in a text editor, by the way.

  • MorpheonMorpheon Posts: 738
    edited November 2015

    Daz Connect's primary purpose is to make it easier for new customers to get going with Daz Studio. By far the number one complaint we have from new customers is how difficult it is to find and load their content. Have you tried it yourself yet?

    Dress it up however you want, but DAZ Connect's primary purpose is to implement the DRM scheme. If making things easier for newbies to install and find content was your goal, then there are a helluva lot simpler and less intrusive ways to do it than this -- a simple PDF or MP4 tutorial on content installation and management probably would have sufficed. And it's not like the forums aren't full of threads on precisely that topic -- there's even a forum category devoted entirely to new users, for God's sake -- that's PRECISELY where such instruction should be. Don't you think that at some point, new users will have to take SOME responsibility for themselves to learn something about how their hobby works? But instead of giving new users a few helpful resources, pointing them in the right direction, and encouraging them to jump in and get their hands dirty -- to learn by doing -- you've instead imposed a top-down one-size-fits-all approach on all of us that (coincidentally, it's been claimed) also has the "benefit" of letting DAZ DRM the snot out of its content. How convenient.

    And, as I've already pointed out, I will NEVER use DC -- I have absolutely zero interest in upgrading beyond 4.8, and I'm holding on to that as an exporter if necessary.

    Your own words:

    An upcoming beta will change it so only products marked as "encrypted-only" in the store will be saved on your system with the Daz specific files in encrypted format. The current beta still encrypts all of the Daz specific files when you download any product through Daz Connect.

    DAZ_John's words:

    either in the public release or first patch we will be making it so that encryption of products during the install through Daz Connect is a per product thing. So content that is already unencrypted will stay that way once we get it working, even when installed through Daz Connect. Again, this might not be in the first release, but definitely the first patch release shortly after at the latest.

    So currently, DC does NOT distinguish between the two categories of content (older non-DAZ Connect vs. DAZ Connect) because the code that controls that ability hasn't been written yet, and so it WILL encrypt key files of anything that passes through it.

    Post edited by Morpheon on
  • Morpheon said:
    Your own words:

    An upcoming beta will change it so only products marked as "encrypted-only" in the store will be saved on your system with the Daz specific files in encrypted format. The current beta still encrypts all of the Daz specific files when you download any product through Daz Connect.

    DAZ_John's words:

    either in the public release or first patch we will be making it so that encryption of products during the install through Daz Connect is a per product thing. So content that is already unencrypted will stay that way once we get it working, even when installed through Daz Connect. Again, this might not be in the first release, but definitely the first patch release shortly after at the latest.

    So currently, DC does NOT distinguish between the two categories of content (older non-DAZ Connect vs. DAZ Connect) because the code that controls that ability hasn't been written yet, and so it WILL encrypt key files of anything that passes through it.

    It's the content, not Connect, that needs to distinguish - and those comments were made several builds ago. Try the new public beta - I just downloaded an item with Connect and the files were not encrypted (though they were compressed).

  • HavosHavos Posts: 3,466
    edited November 2015
    Morpheon said:
    And, as I've already pointed out, I will NEVER use DC -- I have absolutely zero interest in upgrading beyond 4.8, and I'm holding on to that as an exporter if necessary.

    Even if you will never use DC, you can still update to 4.9, and probably beyond that too, as 4.9 does not force you to use DC, you can still use DIM or install manually. I have not tried the beta, but I understand that improvements have been made to both render engines, and that alone with make me upgrade once 4.9 goes live. I will retain a copy of 4.8 should I need to go back, but I hope that will never be needed. As I see it, there are no disadvantages to upgrading.

    Like yourself, I am no fan of encrypted content, but that will not stop me upgrading to 4.9. I will also probably try out DC for installing older, unencrypted content.

    Post edited by Havos on
  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 6,817
    Morpheon said:
    Your own words:

    An upcoming beta will change it so only products marked as "encrypted-only" in the store will be saved on your system with the Daz specific files in encrypted format. The current beta still encrypts all of the Daz specific files when you download any product through Daz Connect.

    DAZ_John's words:

    either in the public release or first patch we will be making it so that encryption of products during the install through Daz Connect is a per product thing. So content that is already unencrypted will stay that way once we get it working, even when installed through Daz Connect. Again, this might not be in the first release, but definitely the first patch release shortly after at the latest.

    So currently, DC does NOT distinguish between the two categories of content (older non-DAZ Connect vs. DAZ Connect) because the code that controls that ability hasn't been written yet, and so it WILL encrypt key files of anything that passes through it.

    It's the content, not Connect, that needs to distinguish - and those comments were made several builds ago. Try the new public beta - I just downloaded an item with Connect and the files were not encrypted (though they were compressed).

    Didn't realise this; useful to know, although I'm not planning on using 4.9's connect system, but will keep with the DIM.

  • MorpheonMorpheon Posts: 738
    edited November 2015
    It's the content, not Connect, that needs to distinguish

    No, it's DAZ Connect that needs to be able to distinguish what is to be encrypted or not, as it's the conduit through which content will pass. Content simply needs to be flagged as to be encrypted or not to be encrypted when using DC, and DC needs to be able to see that and act accordingly. 

    Post edited by Morpheon on
  • MorpheonMorpheon Posts: 738
    edited November 2015
    Havos said:
    Even if you will never use DC, you can still update to 4.9, and probably beyond that too, as 4.9 does not force you to use DC, you can still use DIM or install manually. I have not tried the beta, but I understand that improvements have been made to both render engines, and that alone with make me upgrade once 4.9 goes live. I will retain a copy of 4.8 should I need to go back, but I hope that will never be needed. As I see it, there are no disadvantages to upgrading.

    Like yourself, I am no fan of encrypted content, but that will not stop me upgrading to 4.9. I will also probably try out DC for installing older, unencrypted content.

    I already know about the updates to the render engines, and they're still not enticement enough to put DAZ's nanny-bot spyware BS on my machine, and I'm not alone: there's a LOT of people saying they'll avoid 4.9 and beyond like the plague.

    I also already know that -- for the moment -- users do NOT have to use DC if they don't want to, but -- as I've already said -- many of us see the day coming (DAZ's "assurances" to the contrary) when that will be the ONLY way to download and install content -- again, if all of this IS being done to prevent piracy and to ease new users into getting their content up and runing, it would be the logical thing to do. DAZ isn't going to all this trouble to build a wall around itself only to leave the gates wide open.

    It's not hard to see a time coming when older content is gradually retired (DAZ isn't selling enough copies to justify keeping it in the store; they want to focus on the current figures; the older content is too confusing for new users to use; etc., etc.), and so any assuarances that it will remain unencrypted forever will be moot; and in any case, users like myself who have been around a while already have our purchased content downloaded and backed-up to external storage -- a few like you may choose to download it again through DC, but the majority of us won't, simply because there'll be no need to -- unless, of course, at some point, DAZ makes another change to DS (again, all in the name of stopping piracy and easing new users into DS) that refuses to use content that ISN'T installed through DC (not a stretch to imagine at all). Of course, DAZ has "no current plans" to do this "for the foreseeable future", but hey -- plans change, don't they, and who knows what the future will bring?

    Post edited by Morpheon on
  • HavosHavos Posts: 3,466
    Morpheon said:
    Havos said:
    Even if you will never use DC, you can still update to 4.9, and probably beyond that too, as 4.9 does not force you to use DC, you can still use DIM or install manually. I have not tried the beta, but I understand that improvements have been made to both render engines, and that alone with make me upgrade once 4.9 goes live. I will retain a copy of 4.8 should I need to go back, but I hope that will never be needed. As I see it, there are no disadvantages to upgrading.

    Like yourself, I am no fan of encrypted content, but that will not stop me upgrading to 4.9. I will also probably try out DC for installing older, unencrypted content.

    I already know about the updates to the render engines, and they're still not enticement enough to put DAZ's nanny-bot spyware BS on my machine, and I'm not alone: there's a LOT of people saying they'll avoid 4.9 and beyond like the plague.

    I also already know that -- for the moment -- users do NOT have to use DC if they don't want to, but -- as I've already said -- many of us see the day coming (DAZ's "assurances" to the contrary) when that will be the ONLY way to download and install content -- again, if all of this IS being done prevent piracy and to ease new users into getting their content up and runing, it would be the logical thing to do.

    It's not hard to see a time when older content is gradually retired (it's not selling enough to justify keeping it in the store, DAZ wants to focus on the current figures, it's too confusing for new users to use, etc., etc.), and so any assuarances that it will remain unencrypted forever will be moot; and in any case, users like myself who have been around a while already have our purchased content downloaded and backed-up to external storage -- a few like you may choose to download it again through DC, but the majority of us won't, simply because there'll be no need to -- unless, of course, at some point, DAZ makes another change to DS (again, all in the name of stopping piracy and easing new users into DS) that refuses to use content that ISN'T installed through DC (not a stretch to imagine at all). Of course, DAZ has "no current plans" to do this, but hey -- plans change, don't they?

    I am not saying you are wrong, clearly DAZ could go down this route should they choose, I personally feel they will not, but none of us can say for certain what they will and will not do. I can understand your concerns regarding installing what could be spyware, but the truth is that DAZ could have added spyware to previous versions and we would be none the wiser. They have been open about saying what info this new version collects, and the fact that you can opt out of it should you wish. Naturally it is up to individual users what they believe or not, but if someone believes a software maker is lying about what their software does, it might be best to uninstall previous software from that company as well.

  • IceCrMnIceCrMn Posts: 953

    either way, encrypted content or not, the pirates and the people that support them have finally caused some real life damage that will affect everyone, not just them....

    http://yro.slashdot.org/story/15/11/24/1746241/judge-wipes-out-safe-harbor-provision-in-dmca-makes-cox-accomplice-of-piracy


    ,,,unless the CEO of Cox Communications is willing to serve jail time and/or pay fines for someone elses crimes, I see big changes ahead for all internet users in the US.

  • jpb06tjpb06t Posts: 272
    icecrmn said:

    either way, encrypted content or not, the pirates and the people that support them have finally caused some real life damage that will affect everyone, not just them....

    http://yro.slashdot.org/story/15/11/24/1746241/judge-wipes-out-safe-harbor-provision-in-dmca-makes-cox-accomplice-of-piracy


    ,,,unless the CEO of Cox Communications is willing to serve jail time and/or pay fines for someone elses crimes, I see big changes ahead for all internet users in the US.

    Read the whole discussion. The most likely result is that ISPs will realize that this decision puts them on great jeopardy and accept the common carrier status which will b.t.w. mean that net neutrality will be finally enforced on US ISPs. Isn't it great? a decision of a RIAA lackey which backfires and brings net neutrality laugh?

  • IceCrMnIceCrMn Posts: 953
    jpb06t said:
    icecrmn said:

    either way, encrypted content or not, the pirates and the people that support them have finally caused some real life damage that will affect everyone, not just them....

    http://yro.slashdot.org/story/15/11/24/1746241/judge-wipes-out-safe-harbor-provision-in-dmca-makes-cox-accomplice-of-piracy


    ,,,unless the CEO of Cox Communications is willing to serve jail time and/or pay fines for someone elses crimes, I see big changes ahead for all internet users in the US.

    Read the whole discussion. The most likely result is that ISPs will realize that this decision puts them on great jeopardy and accept the common carrier status which will b.t.w. mean that net neutrality will be finally enforced on US ISPs. Isn't it great? a decision of a RIAA lackey which backfires and brings net neutrality laugh?

    or they use this case to justify charging access fees to certain web sites, blocking others they see as "unacceptable",,,more or less turning their internet service into a pay-per view service.

    I'm hopefull they choose to go Common Carrier myslef, but I'm not sure an ISP would pass up the chance to increase fees,and collect data to sell to advertisers, or to people like RightsCorp.

  • NyghtfallNyghtfall Posts: 432
    edited November 2015
    DAZ_Rawb said:
    Daz Connect's primary purpose is to make it easier for new customers to get going with Daz Studio.  By far the number one complaint we have from new customers is how difficult it is to find and load their content.

    From the moment I downloaded DAZ Studio 3.1 Advanced in 2006, it took me three years noodling around with the program to learn how to install and organize content.  Most of my confusion stemmed from trying to understand the differences between Studio's and Poser's folder structures, and how each program displays content in their respective libraries.

    Considering what I know now, if I had to do it over again, and DAZ Connect had existed back then, I would still much rather repeat that three-year learning process.

    Post edited by Nyghtfall on
  • MorpheonMorpheon Posts: 738
    edited November 2015

    Here's what I (and a lot of other people) think is really happening here.

    Piracy IS a legitimate issue.

    Getting new users up and running (and spending money in the store) IS a legitimate issue.

    However, DAZ has also given itself plausible deniability through the constant use of phrases like "no current plans", "for the foreseeable future", etc., and it IS laying a foundation around itself with DAZ Connect and the DRM. Once those are firmly in place and the kinks are ironed out, there's every reason to believe that DAZ will start building the walls higher and thicker, first by closing off unsecured download methods like the ZIPs, and later by making changes so that DS will refuse to use anything that isn't installed through DC. 

    The counter argument is that, under that scheme, users will not be able to install and use content purchased outside of the DAZ marketplace, and that's absolutely correct -- in fact, that's the whole point. Being able to use a wide selection of items from any number of outside sources IS a huge advantage (especially in the beginning when DAZ was trying to build up their user base) and one that would be lost under such a scheme, but we also believe that DAZ now believes it has become so established and dominant that it can try to peel off an increasing number of those outside sales -- not by competing for those sales on the basis that its products are so much cooler, easier to use, packed with features, or attractively priced (those are all judgements that each individual user will have to make for themselves) -- but by constraining the means by which content flows into DS. DAZ is probably thinking that older users will be so financially invested in their content libraries that they'll go along with whatever is thrown at them, and this will simply be normal for new users with no knowledge or experience of how users traditionally purchase, install, configure, and use content.

    Enticements like render engine updates are great things on their own, but they're also the sugar coating that (it's hoped) will allow older users to swallow the DRM bitter pill and to stick around and spend even more money, becoming even further invested and even less inclined to bail.

    This will not happen quickly (in fact, it shouldn't: a gradual transition is crucial to avoid alarming and stampeding your customer base -- let them get used to the bars and chains gradually and learn to be comfortable in them).

    Now, in all fairness, it COULD be that this assesment is completely wrong and that DAZ's stated motivations ARE absolutely true, but the means by which they've attempted to address the issues of piracy and new users are also EXACTLY the same means by which DAZ could (and likely will) implement a closed ecosystem.

    The question now is: do you trust DAZ? I do not believe the old DAZ would have done this (or maybe it's only because at the time, they weren't in a position to do so), but it's apparent to me that this new DAZ will and is.

    Post edited by Morpheon on
  • MorpheonMorpheon Posts: 738
    Havos said:

     it might be best to uninstall previous software from that company as well.

    Already done. I haven't had DS installed on my machine for the last several weeks, since the start of all this. And sorry if I came across as offended -- I wasn't, and that wasn't my intention.

  • lxlx Posts: 2,870

    They COULD do a lot of things, but I'm not about to walk around with my umbrella up every day just in case it rains. If they do try to cut off all other sources of content and lock Studio use to Daz Store only, then many customers will leave, and they'll realise how idiotic that decision was.

    In the meantime, it's free software with many free items and reasonably priced content (when on sale which is most of the time) that's mostly high quality. I'd rather just take advantage of that now instead of worrying that a company might make some really stupid decisions in the future.

  • NyghtfallNyghtfall Posts: 432
    edited November 2015
    Morpheon said:
    The question now is: do you trust DAZ?

    No.

    I canceled my PC+ membership after the beta was announced, uninstalled DS, and moved my content to a backup drive.  Now, I'm just waiting to see what happens while focusing on other interests.

    I'm especially enjoying the money I'm saving not buying new content or upgrading my hardware.  I had $300 saved up for a 980 Ti, and used it on something else instead.

    Post edited by Nyghtfall on
  • MorpheonMorpheon Posts: 738
    edited November 2015
    lx said:

    They COULD do a lot of things, but I'm not about to walk around with my umbrella up every day just in case it rains. If they do try to cut off all other sources of content and lock Studio use to Daz Store only, then many customers will leave, and they'll realise how idiotic that decision was.

    Do you carry a spare tire in your car? A first aid kit? Is there a fire extinguisher in your house? Do you have a life insurance policy? If so, then you're already thinking ahead to future bad possiblities and planning accordingly. Why is this any different?

    And I've already pointed out that DAZ is likely thinking that older users will be so heavily invested financially in their content libraries that they'll be reluctant to bail on DAZ, regardless of how they may personally feel about DAZ's actions and policies. (And, of course, if they stick around for the sake of their investments, they'll probably spend more money at some point, becoming even more financially invested and even less inclined to bail, and on and on and on). 

    History is full of bad things that happened (obviously some worse than others) largely because many people involved were reluctant to speak out about them and simply went along because it was the easier thing to do -- things that could have been stopped relatively easily at the very beginning before they grew and matastisized out of control. They didn't think bad things COULD happen because they didn't WANT to believe bad things could happen -- and this is no different.

    For example, if your spouse approaches you and says "Honey, my unemployed druggie alcoholic wife-beating friend with the identity theft conviction needs a place to stay for a few days, and I offered him the spare bedroom", do you 1. immediately put a stop to it, or 2. wait until after your home, your reputation, and your credit rating is a smoldering ruin before you say "y'know, this might not be the best of ideas"?

     

    Post edited by Morpheon on
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