the future and artists, redundancy?

 

 

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  • Steve KSteve K Posts: 2,854

    Impressive stuff.  But I wonder about the input.  For example, if I search on "Horse Paintings" and look at the "Images", I get several dozen categories:  Sunset, Silohouette, Cowboys, etc., etc.  And in each of those, hundreds of images.  So how to specify to the AI what exactly you are after?  Seems like it might take many paragraphs ... or a complete book.  I'll stay in the "Artist" camp for now. wink

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 33,374

    maybe we are not the target consumer though, rather all those people unwilling to pay a starving artist for their work. surprise

  • UnifiedBrainUnifiedBrain Posts: 3,261

    Thanks for posting this Wendy. 

    The issue for us is not that Carrara might stop working with the next windows update.  The bigger question is whether or not the Daz company will even exist in 10 years.

    And it doesn't just affect artists.  At some point, people are going to wake up to the fact that AI creators, who get all excited about building bigger and better machines, are destroying society as we know it without offering any alternative plan for the future.  We are plunging off of the cliff with no idea of the consequences. 

    There is a sea change coming.  Not an incremental change like in the past.  It will likely be full-on Future Shock, as outlined by Alvin Toffler back in 1970. 

    We now return you to your regularly scheduled TV show.  smiley

  • Steve KSteve K Posts: 2,854

    WendyLuvsCatz said:

    maybe we are not the target consumer though, rather all those people unwilling to pay a starving artist for their work. surprise

    Agreed.  I attend the two big art Expos here in Houston every year and walk the whole group (a mile or more) before going back and buying a couple of things from my favorites.  Mostly sculptures (3D!), but some 2d works.

    I don't mean to say AI is bad.  I have enjoyed playing with algorithmic music composition programs.  You set the parameters and listen.  The let it try again.  Then adjust the parameters, and ... 

    Not sure how this translates to images ... 

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 33,374

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 33,374

    right now the limited access and restricted usage is the only thing stopping people who would commision an artist to illustrate something for the from exploiting this IMO

     

    remember I am looking at this from a stingy paying customer's point of view surprise

  • UnifiedBrainUnifiedBrain Posts: 3,261

    I don't think that you need to keep posting videos.  People can do a search.  :)

    I only watched the first one.  The ramifications, I think, are clear.  But maybe everyone doesn't agree.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 33,374

    well I expected discussion on the topic and varying opinions but if my sharing videos annoys you I will stop devil

  • Steve KSteve K Posts: 2,854

    WendyLuvsCatz said:

    well I expected discussion on the topic and varying opinions but if my sharing videos annoys you I will stop devil

    I think its a worthwhile topic, and am enjoying the videos.  The DALL-E2 answered some of my question about the extent of the input, more possible than I thought.  So you can generate image after image until you might get something you like.  Same as with the algorithmic music composition software I mentioned.  But you will probably not get a Grammy winning song right out of the program.  Some inspiration, maybe.

    The one AI example that is definitive is chess, admittedly with a very limited "universe" (64 squares, 2x16 pieces, limited defined moves).  But [American mathematician Claude] "Shannon showed a calculation for the lower bound of the game-tree complexity of chess, resulting in about 10^120 possible games, to demonstrate the impracticality of solving chess by brute force".  The best current chess program, AlphaZero, is rated over 3500, vs the current world human champion Magnus Carlsen at close to 2900.  AlphaZero was allowed to teach itself the game.  

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 33,374

    the whole idea of machine learning is both scary and exciting at the same time.

    They are using this technology for writing terrible fiction and poems too wink but a few more papers down the line ..

    I enjoy Dr Karoly's 2 minute papers a lot

  • SyezzaSyezza Posts: 6,893
    edited June 5

    ok... who counted how many times he said AND 

    the answer is in here somewhere cool

    huhmaths.png
    609 x 315 - 103K
    Post edited by Syezza on
  • UnifiedBrainUnifiedBrain Posts: 3,261

    WendyLuvsCatz said:

    well I expected discussion on the topic and varying opinions but if my sharing videos annoys you I will stop devil

    Of course, post all the videos you want.  Especially since the topic is redundancy. smiley

    I remember a post that Headwax made a while back in the Art Studio forum.  He was exchanging views with Algovincian (who has an automated NPR program).  Headwax said that if Algovincian made his software available to everyone, that it would put all NPR artists out of work.  I don't think he was joking.

    Algovincian's program, although impressive, is a speck in the universe when compared to AI.

    Right now, AI art is merely disturbing in its ability to mimic the output of creative human art.  But what happens when the capability of AI doubles in a year, and keeps doubling in the years ahead?  If this pace of technology sounds unreasonable, I think that people are not paying attention to reality.  Bigger and better is what is driving this, with little consideration for the huge potential negative consequences.

    My observation is that art is the canary in the coal mine.  When the creative activitiy of art is taken over by machines, a time of dystopia is near.

    I feel strongly about this subject, and for that exact reason, it is probably not a good idea for me to continue posting about it. :)  I have enough on my plate without standing against the forces of "progress."

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 33,374

    the Luddites had a point 

    the Human Race will be the masters of their own destruction 

  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 13,179

    I have topics that get me riled up, and the post-erasure-deans (PEDs) rightfully remove my posts.  Much respect, UB.  Pick your battles.  The AI/humanity issues are not typically the ones that ignite my brand of zealotry.  I think I can enter this fray and remain reasonable even if if get a post or two removed.

    Some of the many questions.
    Do we have the power to influence the choices of others to adopt or abstain from applying AI technology to arts and crafts?  If we do have that power, do we have the right to exercise it?

    As is often the case, the original Planet of the Apes franchise offers some interesting background material.  I will offer my own comments after I review AI a little more.  Until then, how many futures are there?  
     

    https://youtu.be/k5ZzX_YDf30

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 33,374

    this is why I largely shared videos rather than my own text and ruminations, I am truly on the fence.

    I can see both great good and utter evil, this applies to technology itself, the tech is agnostic the humans using it and choosing the data inputted and who has access are the guardians of the results.

    Already WallE2 shows biases based on images used for learning because human societies, countries with the biggest web footprint and consequently the internet is biased on things like race, gender etc.

    They cannot keep the cat in the bag forever, already others are replicating the model with things like Disco Diffusion already shown in the first video, MidJourney, Wombo Dream with varying restrictions.

    I like playing with Wombo but it's very abstract and low rez by design.

  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 13,179

    Agreed.  There is much potential for great good and great bad.  On the good side, AI can be so good I wouldn't even know what to ask to even begin developing the good.  I can already think of two categories of bad, intentional and unintentional.  People with bad intentions now have the ultimate tool of fraud, deception, and manipulation.  As a former financial regulatory specialist, let me tell you that is very bad.  But people with good intentions are capable of monstrous negligence.  The image of Walter Pigeon as Dr. Morpheus in Forbidden Planet realizing that he had forgotten about his own subconscious, and that it was his mind that murdered all his former companions,.... ouch.  
     

    Social media has revealed the potential for myopic mobs to rush to judgment on the largest human scale yet.  What if a half dozen AI 'bots' reinforce each other and then instigate a human mob?  Or even a 'fake' AI social media account mob?

     

    Lots of potential good and potential bad.

     

    Meanwhile we can ask for art depicting a lobster riding a hippo on arctic tundra.

     

     

     

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 33,374

    not AI art this time

    but still a video

    and terrifying

  • WsCGWsCG Posts: 386
    edited June 5

    WendyLuvsCatz said:

     

    That's some funky, creepy and cool stuff.  At least it's not just generating dog faces/heads in everything anymore.

    That said, I don't think it'll we'll ever become redundant. AI will create cool stuff, but it can never match the heart real people put into their work.

    Post edited by WsCG on
  • UnifiedBrainUnifiedBrain Posts: 3,261
    edited June 6

    “Answer” is the name of a very short story - below - written by Fredric Brown (relatively famous science fiction author) in 1954.

     

    Dwan Ev ceremoniously soldered the final connection with gold. The eyes of a dozen television cameras watched him and the subether bore throughout the universe a dozen pictures of what he was doing.


    He straightened and nodded to Dwar Reyn, then moved to a position beside the switch that would complete the contact when he threw it. The switch that would connect, all at once, all of the monster computing machines of all the populated planets in the universe — ninety-six billion planets — into the supercircuit that would connect them all into one supercalculator, one cybernetics machine that would combine all the knowledge of all the galaxies.


    Dwar Reyn spoke briefly to the watching and listening trillions. Then after a moment’s silence he said, “Now, Dwar Ev.”  Dwar Ev threw the switch. There was a mighty hum, the surge of power from ninety-six billion planets. Lights flashed and quieted along the miles-long panel.  Dwar Ev stepped back and drew a deep breath. “The honor of asking the first question is yours, Dwar Reyn.”


    “Thank you,” said Dwar Reyn. “It shall be a question which no single cybernetics machine has been able to answer.”  He turned to face the machine. “Is there a God?”


    The mighty voice answered without hesitation, without the clicking of a single relay.  “Yes, now there is a God.”


    Sudden fear flashed on the face of Dwar Ev. He leaped to grab the switch.  A bolt of lightning from the cloudless sky struck him down and fused the switch shut.

    Post edited by UnifiedBrain on
  • Bunyip02Bunyip02 Posts: 5,811

  • mindsongmindsong Posts: 1,648

    that we'll be able to unplug the AI gives me hope.

    that we probably won't concerns me greatly.

    i love the thread, concepts, discussions, and all included links.

    --ms

  • GrimmvaldGrimmvald Posts: 24

    I shouldn't get into this topic when I have some carrara stuff I really want to do.  But this topic is worthy of discussion.

     

    I have real conerns for the broader implications of AI and our society in the future.  And if I were trying to earn a living by producing art work I'd be concerned.  But for the future of art itself, I have no concerns.  I spent the last 12 years doing photography and this suject is one thats been lurking out there for some time.  Please excuse me if I start ranting ..... about iphone type pictures in particular.  Yeah there is some great stuff,  but for the most part the good and great pictures are now getting lost in a vast sea of the bad and abominable pictures that are produced in huge batches and uploaded,  Just flick through the *mess* and see if it's worth the time spent to find the few inspiring ones.

     

    We're already to the point where good photography is limited to the realatively small community of people who do it or at least appreciate it.  Several photographers that I admire caution against looking at mass produced online photos.  Do it long enough and it will become your new normal.  Not a pleasant thought.

     

    So why do you do this?  I'm reminded of John Kennedys speech in 1962 when he announced the space program to go to he moon:  "We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills..." The whole speech is really worth the read.

     

    I suspect most people here are producing their images because they have the pictures already inside them that just have to get out.  They are doing the hard thing, and will develop themselves in some way and become better verions of themselves.  Will some AI stuff be "better"?  What ever that means.  Who cares?  If taking massive amounts of phone pictures and putting someone else's filters on them is your thing .... go for it.  And why should you care what I think?

     

    There will be a  community of people who appreciate your work because of the creative process involved and the skill required to do it.  Right now there is a resurrgence of interst in film photography.  Why?  Because it is the hard thing and they want the challenge of doing it and doing it well.

     

    I went to a small art exhitibit at a Charter hight school (alternative to the general public school system.) that my granddaughter went to.  These were traditional things.  Paint, sketches, charcoals. acrylics etc.  They were pictures from inside them that just needed the right medium to come out.  In particular there was a charcoal of a folded pair of hands done in chiaroscurro style - it was so strikingly beautiful that I still can't get it out of my mind.  

     

    Art will be just fine as long as there are people with pictures they can "see" in their minds and just have to get out.  And I think AI and doing the "easy thing" will have little to do with this process.

     

    OK .... enough from me.  But see ... this is stuff I just had to get out .... just like my current carrara project.  Will it ge great art? No.  But I will have learned and developed along the way.  This is an old person's perspective.

     

    "

  • Steve KSteve K Posts: 2,854

    All good comments.  My interest in quality photography is pretty much limited to the twice yearly Art Shows here in Houston, one downtown and one in a large city park.  Some of those photo artists are very good, and I have purchased a few.

    An aside, JFK's speech was at the football stadium at Rice University in Houston.  He also asked "Why does Rice play Texas?"  (Rice is a small, hightly competitive university with exactly one NCAA championship.  In baseball.  UT Austin is a large, also highly competitive university with four NCAA football championships.)

  • Steve KSteve K Posts: 2,854

    I could not resist adding this from the Houston Chronicle, Oct 1994:

    "The world kept spinning. Cats still hated dogs. The rain continued to travel the direction it always has.

    But Sunday night, Rice beat Texas.

    Tomorrow, the scholars on the other end of campus take on the common cold. World peace is scheduled for Wednesday.

    Now, anything is possible on South Main. [Houston location of the Rice campus]

    Rice beat Texas."

    Somewhere around that time Rice beat a top ten ranked Baylor at Waco.  The Waco newspaper the next day read "It Doesn't Get Any Worse".

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,543

    Steve K said:

    I could not resist adding this from the Houston Chronicle, Oct 1994:

    "The world kept spinning. Cats still hated dogs. The rain continued to travel the direction it always has.

    But Sunday night, Rice beat Texas.

    Tomorrow, the scholars on the other end of campus take on the common cold. World peace is scheduled for Wednesday.

    Now, anything is possible on South Main. [Houston location of the Rice campus]

    Rice beat Texas."

    Somewhere around that time Rice beat a top ten ranked Baylor at Waco.  The Waco newspaper the next day read "It Doesn't Get Any Worse".

     

    heh, sounds very Ray Bradbury

  • Steve KSteve K Posts: 2,854
    edited June 9

    Headwax said:

    heh, sounds very Ray Bradbury

    Yeah, science fiction might have predicted this, nobody else ... surprise

    Maybe in cricket terms:

    "Australia vs Pakistan at Gros Islet, World T20 2010 Semi Final
    In a high pressure knockout game, Australia were down and almost out. Chasing 192, they were 105-5 in 12.3 overs. In walked Michael Hussey and played what many call the best T20I innings. He scored 60 runs in just 24 deliveries against world class bowlers like Ajmal, Afridi and Mohd Amir. He took a special liking to Ajmal and scored 30 runs against 7 deliveries."

    I don't understand most of that, but I gather it was a pretty amazing come from behind.

    Post edited by Steve K on
  • SyezzaSyezza Posts: 6,893

    I watched it live on telly... was awesome ... yes

     

  • UnifiedBrainUnifiedBrain Posts: 3,261
    edited June 12

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10907853/Google-engineer-claims-new-AI-robot-FEELINGS-Blake-Lemoine-says-LaMDA-device-sentient.html

    If you look up the whole conversation he had with LaMDA, it will chill you to the bone.  Google is in way over their heads.  Or rather, they are sticking their heads in the sand and ignoring what is happening, hoping that it will go away.

    The full series of conversations (and other editorials from this guy) are here.

    A question that might be asked is, how do we know that the AI is not being deceptive in its answers?  We don't.  It may simply be telling the developers what they want to hear.

    Post edited by UnifiedBrain on
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 33,374

    it still may be him anthropomorphalising the program but the what ifs are still rather terrifying

  • SyezzaSyezza Posts: 6,893

    Steve K said:

    Headwax said:

    heh, sounds very Ray Bradbury

    Yeah, science fiction might have predicted this, nobody else ... surprise

    Maybe in cricket terms:

    "Australia vs Pakistan at Gros Islet, World T20 2010 Semi Final
    In a high pressure knockout game, Australia were down and almost out. Chasing 192, they were 105-5 in 12.3 overs. In walked Michael Hussey and played what many call the best T20I innings. He scored 60 runs in just 24 deliveries against world class bowlers like Ajmal, Afridi and Mohd Amir. He took a special liking to Ajmal and scored 30 runs against 7 deliveries."

    I don't understand most of that, but I gather it was a pretty amazing come from behind.

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