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So what would be the rosulution of the MipMaps? I might be better to do ones own reduction to that size. Just a thought
Perhaps, it would depend on the nature of the problem. But if you know you won't need any size beyond x pixels square it may save a bit of time, or even avoid a crash, to use a downsampled image.
All clear about the messages about "too big texture" or "insufficient" memory.
I had to investigate it all by my own.
At the end it turned out, that "only" one DAZ primitive (plane) got corrupted over all that time and the different DAZ versions during the long time I once created the set.
I can continue to use my 5000 x 6000 "big" texture maps. Everything's fine. It (3Delight) renders without any problem and still very small memory usage.
Glad to see you solved it.
Played with my shader a bit more. Got it running faster now. Was about 4 minutes with DOF at 12x12, now it's around 2 to 3 minutes. Still without Russian roulette so I'm thinking it can even be faster.
A quick and dirty test of loading textures. Obviously, without SSS.
UE2 IDL 8 samples. Raytrace depth is 12, pixel samples 8x8.
Without raycaching - 3 minutes 32.97 seconds
With raycaching via Kettu's script - 21.33 seconds
Also did some test with UE2. With bounceGI, renders the three statues 30% faster now (was 16 minutes 39.51 seconds, now 9 minutes 10.26 seconds).
Obviously much faster than any of the publicly available 3delight shaders for DAZ Studio.
Very possible.
That is precisely what some in this thread is doing/did. Kettu's shaders is probably the most 'finished' one, though I still have no idea when will she ever release it. Her pack includes shaders and lights.
My own shader isn't feature complete yet, since I'm still focusing on performance. However, considering I've only worked on it since May, I'm making very good progress.
You bring up a very good question about Color Space and Gamut. You use a color block a lot, have you ever ran it through detection software and found the color space of DAZ Studio? Back in the Mid 90's I took a Class from Apple about Color, ColorSync, and getting your Studio so you could buy color off the screen and not run through a ream of paper getting your images to look right. It actually helped the Ad Agency I worked for at the time, reduce printing cost and made the art department more productive.
I've been thinking about this for a while and recently I watched a very interesting Tutorial from the Blender Guru about The Secret Ingredient to Photorealism; and it brought it all to the forefront of my mind. What is DAZ Studio's Color Space? (Yeah I know that is Blender and this is DAZ Studio, but there are things that transfer.)
Thing is he was talking about how Blender's color space is all wrong and how someone has taken the time to create a New Blender Color Space, so they could move away form sRGB (made to properly view an image on a CRT monitor not meant to be a working color space). It was suggested is to move to the ACES (Academy Color Encoding System) which is a much larger color space, so there wouldn't be as much Clipping of lows or highs due to a limited Dynamic range.
So to give you the down and dirty of it. You have Input devices, Camera, Scanners, 3D Scanners and even your Cell Phone. Each of those has a Profile made by processing a raw image, at a set light. Check the Light you change the Calibration. Hence the reason for the target photographers have to models hold up.
The Raw image, is imported into your computer's color workspace, through a that Profile. When you computer put the Image on the screen it goes through a profile for your screen. You can also overlay another profile to simulate what the image would look like printed in a Newspaper or a Coffee table book. When it got to the Printer it goes through yet another profile.
All those profiles are mapping the abilities of you input device to your working color space. So if you are working with an Cannon D50 as your input device and your are using sRGB, you are Compressing the color data of the D50 and loosing Dynamic Range.
For instance the image below is the Comparison of my Epson Photo Scanner (the white graphic) and sRGB (the color graphic). My Scanner can detect more color than sRGB can hold, So without the Profiles those colors would be Clipped out, either as dark spots and White spots where there shoudl be color. With the Profiles, the color space of my Scanner is compressed to fit in the sRGB color space, Maintaining the color ballance by reducing the Dynamic Range and if not done correctly that color data will be lost.
So I thought the first thing we need is a Color Target, just like the one below, which photographers use. They have the model hold the target so they can calibrate the Lighting for the shoot, they change the Lighting the take another picture of the target.
Once we had a color target we needed to get someone who has the software to read it.
But Wait there is a Problem If you put a picture of a Physical target in a scene and render the image of a picture, you don't get the real color, because who know what DAZ Studio does with the Original Photo. What we need is a Target built in the 3D Space. Just like this one:
Wait that looks just like the other one. That is because it is. Neither of them are renders of an image. It is a Render of a 3D model, each square is a Surface and can be tweaked, if we find my math is bad. Oh… How about I give everyone the whole thing: Prop, Sub-Scene, Post NOV-2014 LAB readings, Materials (3DL, Iray, Uber), and we see if it helps everyone. That you will find in the ZIP file below. This is a raw, Docs are limiited, I will flush it out over the week, but the Prop and Materials shouldn't changem unless somone finds it is in error or improves it. If you find my math is all wet, tell me and we'll fixit. (No I didn't to a color suck from the screen, I got my data out of the target data for each square.
Oh there is a difference between the two targets above: One is rendered with 3Delight and the other Iray. There are separate materials for each.
NOTE: I removed the ZIP, as I am cleaning it up a little, putting Block ID's at the Front of the Patch Names. If you have downloaded it, already just Check back later.
Color management is the responsibility of the app and not the renderer. Here's how 3DfM employs proper color management.
https://3delight.atlassian.net/wiki/display/3DFM/Color+Management
If you use the same color management with any renderer, they should come out similar. Of course, to do that, it means using linear workflow and outputting to the correct target color space. Using a gamma value of 2.2 isn't the same as sRGB, there are very subtle differences between both. In practice the differences are small enough not to be noticeable to most.
This document
http://www.babelcolor.com/index_htm_files/RGB Coordinates of the Macbeth ColorChecker.pdf
contains info on sRGB equivalent values for the Gretag Color Macbeth chart. The simple rule is that black is not zero and white is not 1. Stick to values between them and you generally do fine.
Even if you do, textures will need to be authored with those in mind. Something like this
http://eat3d.com/free/color-correct-reference-workflow
As noted in the video, even just calibrating your luminance levels (black and white) properly helps a lot in making sure your colors gets closer to the reference chart. As a side note, I do wish people pay more attention to saturation with HDRIs. I've seen a lot of HDRIs come with too much saturation.
If I remember correctly, DS uses two simplistic rules - if the textures are color textures, they are assumed to be sRGB (gamma 2.2), while control textures (opacity, spec, normal, displacement etc) are assumed to be linear (gamma 1.0). Roughly the same as 3DfM. The difference is DS 'combines' target color space so if you want to work in linear, make sure your image viewer/editor converts the image back to sRGB space.
Unfortunately, all these are (close to) meaningless if you don't even employ gamma correction AT ALL (like some people). But hey, maybe it's a stylistic choice.
Tone mapping should help achieve the filmic look since it 'adjust' values closest to one. Of course, it needs proper albedo values to be able to work properly.
Excellent References and the Video is great at explaining how to use the target and for anyone looking to made photo references images for materials.
I realize that Color space is the responsibility of the Application and not the Renderer, but it should work within the color space. What I've not seen is where one could access those Color space setting. Did I miss them in my digging? I found the Gamma setting, but nothing about color space. Also one would think it would apply a ICC profile to the image, but there is none.
One of the problems with color correction is if you do it halfway, you will end up with an uncontrollable mess, that will only get worse, as you attempt to add other elements to your work. and as the video shows, your eye's can be fooled, with white, black and the mid tones, That is because our eyes do the whole color and white point balance dance all the time, that it is second nature. Designers use these tricks to make you look thinner, bigger, and colors send primal messages to our brains.
As far as my target: I created it using the Lab values; saved into a System Color Pallet, of my Mac; then applied to the color squares, through the color picker. All other values are zeroed, so there is nothing but the color reference. So it should be pretty accurate, but if someone finds an error, I'll be happy to correct it.
*raises hand*
Anything you could possibly want to know. The question is: what exactly do you want to find out? How to use this particular script to the best extent? How to write your own? Ask away.
I expect nothing less from a Naughty Dog team member.
I think it's implicitly sRGB, or rather gamma 2.2 space. Anything beyond that is simply up to the interpretation of the OS and/or image viewer/editor.
That Babelcolor document has values from other color spaces and sources as well. Just cross reference yours with the values there.
has anybody tried the AOA lights in the latest DS version ( official, not the public built)? I believe to remember they had some more dial options in the light settings than light colour and light intensity, shadow is not even active... I tried the advanced distant light, the advanced spot light and the Ambient light.
For the record, I am in 3delight for this and I selected the lights from the light presets in the light tab and went to the editor to adjust them.
Could be I am just sitting on my brain right now but can someone check on that, please?
I have the shadow options etc, try reinstalling the lights, this is often required for lights and shaders when you've upgraded a version.
Thanks, that is an idea, I will try!
edit to say: yes that worked! thanky a lot!
Sorry but that doesn't translate in any way to DS. There is no "filmic look" in DS
You shouldn't refer to A. Price's thing as something accurate. In my POV (and from many blender user's view) he seems technically very limited and gets things all wrong (may be with purpose as he generates buzz and talks about him). I tried to watch his video and stopped at half of it as there was already too much wrong informations for my taste. And instead of educating people like he claims to do, he contributes to do the opposite.
Blender doesn't have wrong color space.
All Renderers do generally work in linear space in sRGB and there is nothing wrong with that. That is the case with 3delight inside DS.
The Filmic look in Blender is a way to get a "better render display" with more details and contrast to work on your render preview in real time. That look is a color transformation of the renderer's output and should be referred as "tonemapping" (not the renderer's job). That is OK if you want a filmic look and only in the case where you DO NOT want to use a third party software to do tonemapping. Otherwise, that's not the way to go.
The output of blender with sRGB is the one coming out from the renderer corrected to match a gamma 2.2 display device (your monitor). There is no relation to "old CRT" and again there is nothing wrong with that.
Now if we talk about DS, you don't have any integrated tonemapper to work with 3delight. So after rendering you should use a third party software to do that.
If using Iray, there are tools to do the tonemap, so you don't need to export the DS output to an other software to adjust the image for the final look if the integrated tools are good enough for your needs and that the tonemapped output is what you want
If we are talking about realism, then there are some prerequisites. Gamma correction in that case plays a major role in what is called "linear workflow"
With DS and 3dl, the linear workflow doesn't need a lot of work for actual products for what I know. In fact you have almost nothing to do. I've already posted about the workflow somewhere in this thread (and also in a few others)
About color space, I don't think you need to bother about it inside DS as I believe all textures provided by vendors are in RGB color space. The only thing you have to do is tonemap with an other tool if using 3delight output
For the few thing I've read or seen from A. Price, I can only say again that one shouldn't take what he says as accurate. He however sometimes raises focus on a good point or good work. Filmic in Blender is a good thing and Troy's work (the author of the plugin) is a quality work. The Buzz made by Price at least brought focus on that addon and may have brought many inexperienced users to eventually question themselves about their tonemapping process which is a good thing
How to use it. I've never played with it before and am curious.
Thanks!
Hate to butt in, you all are obviouosly at a tech level way beyond mine. Honestly dont understand even 10% of the above.
I've been trying to get Mary Anne working in DAZ, while she supposedly has a3DL skin, it comes out so Flat and Lifeless compared to the Preview window. If anyone knows of a script I might download, or some basic setting suggestions. I'm not trying to get some super photo realism, just as close to the preview window as possible.
Her pants, like so many recent products, wont even render in the OpenGL, so I do have to render in 3DL just to basic textures to show, and stack layers for post work in ms5
The GAMA is set at 2.2 and As the Set I am using is a lil pin-up studio set I recently down loaded. She is setting right in the beam of a spot at 100%; not that you could tell by the image on the left at all. It seemed to me her flesh tone was flat, and orange which turned out to be the tone of one of the subsurface layer, like the engine appears to be ignoring her surface skin completely. And just presenting this gross, flat, underpainting.
A script the mimics the Intermediate Open GL is I think what Im Ultimately aiming for here; any guidance towards achieving that would be most appreciated.
Thanks in Advance for any help BB.
Got masks working. No diffuse yet on the reverse side though.
PBR metalness workflow in DS 3delight.
Never thought the day would come.
And blurry refraction too.
Progressing nicely. Renders in around 6-8 minutes with bounceGI at 16x16 pixel samples.
Jeez,
Hard to believe that the newest version of DS is still using 3delight 12.0.27. That build is dated 2015-10-06 (October 6, 2015). Almost two years behind.
Still wondering if they'll ever fix the instanced shadow bug (instances fail to cast shadow if they are High Resolution)
Don't know if they ever fix that. I filed a bug report a long time ago. Easiest workaround. Don't render with the standard render. Render with IPR. This means it's a DS bug, not 3delight. The bug also means there's no SSS on the instanced models as well.
Since it works perfectly fine with non SubD models, I learned not to use SubD objects with instancing.
The harder workaround is of course, to export SubD models at target resolution level, import them back in as base res and then instanced those.
Just another bug in the long list of DAZ Studio bugs.
Made a little progress with MaryAnne, Applied the Humas Surface Base Shader to her Torso, Which renders closer to what I would like, alot better than the 3DL skin provided does, but looks much worse in the Preview window. So my initial Question remains. How can I set up a Shader which is true to the Diffuse Map in Preview, and as close as possible to that Image in Render.
I know its not how most people work here, but when I spend an hour of more setting up a shot; I want just what I set up SANS GUI in the final JPG. Unfortuantely its not really possible to just use the OpenGLs anymore; or I would; but so many Textures only show up in 3DL or Iray. And I dont see DAZ requiring vendors provide an OpenGL Texture anytime Ever. Ideally I would like to get to a situatio like her forarms; which look so nice in preview, with the 3DL shaders but look so Aweful Rendered. While I will ultimately be porting OpenGL and 3DL Layers to MS5 for post work, obviously the closer they are in appearance, the less work in post just to merge them.
You need to convert the surface to the DAZ Studio Default shader, this will strip out all the things the advance shaders have that OpenGL doesn't understand.
Pretty sure thats with the Human Skin Shader, well the Torso, Suprised that would confuse it, seems pretty old Tech,
but I believe I've saved a shader off v4; now I have a lil better Idea what Im doing will try that again, thanks Jess.
It is an advance shader, age is irrelevant. From the few experiments I have done with the OpenGL renders anything other than default shaders set to Matte will confuddle OpenGL and cause a crash to desktop half the time.
Is ambient turned on for the skin? Compare the skin setting to the clothing settings as they rendered ok.
Yes Jess,
Actually I spent a couple hours last night comparing parameters, trying to copy Shaders from Claudia, the G3F Base and All. Ultimately I even moved the Maryanne and her stool to a "Pin Up" set I made years ago, the set consists off 2 Planes, and a cylinder ; there is virtually nothing to it. As you can see, the Toons are properly lit in the BGL, and while Claudia looks aweful, of course she does, she is very old V4++ Base all the way, the scene is properly lit in the 3DL; but the scene might as well be set in a cave in the Intermediate OpenGL;
Perhaps I am just still messing up but I dont really think so, I have yet to get a single usable image out of the IGL since the patch; there seems to be something messed up with the way it is handling light and I don't think you and I can fix that if the problem is not just my tiny bird brain but an actual bug in the code.
I think I have wasted enough of both of our times on this, I can only apologize for your wasted time, and tell you it is genuinely appreciated. I did open a ticket yesterday with DAZ, and maybe I can update it with the most recent photos; not that I believe for a minute anything will be done. But I appreciate your time and Help. Tom
Hey Blackbird,
If your intention is to get identical results in the viewport and in the final rendered image, your only option is to use the Iray viewport and render in Iray. There is no way to have both the viewport and your 3Delight render look identical. It just wasn't meant to be.
If you are willing to ditch the viewport and just get a more or less decent final render, and you want something of a shortcut with minimal effort... you could use this tutorial for the skin: http://afina79.deviantart.com/art/Sugar-Skin-In-Daz-Studio-159087559 - and use my old free light presets: http://www.sharecg.com/v/74356/gallery/21/DAZ-Studio/Mk85-Fantasy-Lights and http://www.sharecg.com/v/76371/gallery/21/DAZ-Studio/Mk85-Fantasy-Lights-PORTRAIT-ADD-ON .
If you're willing to invest more time and effort and get ultimate control possible in "vanilla" DS, you could click over to this (very long) "tutorial" of mine which is more like a treatise on the subject, with theory and practical recipes: http://www.sharecg.com/v/76566/gallery/3/PDF-Tutorial/Subsurface-Scattering-in-3Delight-for-DS
This is 100% free for commercial and non-commercial renders. This is guaranteed to get you consistent and reproducible results. My lights all cast shadows and use AO correctly = no light leaks and no "soot".
Another way would be to head over to Wowie's store here at DAZ3D and buy some of his recent work which is more advanced in terms of light presets and has a somewhat different approach to setting up skin materials.
PS The customer support at DAZ is very very friendly (like, world's best maybe in terms of being nice people), but more tech-type questions/requests/reports tend to get stuck - the devs are few and far between, which means "extremely busy", and the support staff aren't all technical experts. Just a word of warning.
It is a DS bug.
It's literally a single extraneous AttributeEnd. One wrong API call. I even sent example RIBs in.
Another workaround is export to RIB, find that AttributeEnd and kill the line.