Fiddling with Iray skin settings...

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  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,318
    edited December 1969

    Some great information in this thread!

    I'm still experimenting, but I've been going to the specular/glossiness model for darker skin or colorful skin, and sticking with metallicity/roughness for the very pale. I may ultimately prefer specular/glossiness for all of them. I can't wait to try kamion99's top coat glossy method! I've been trying the bump maps in that layer and somewhat liking the effect.

    I think we're going to end up using the metallic flakes layer for makeup and tattoos. With the right density settings it can really work.

  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 190
    edited December 1969

    my test

    IRAY_Mei_lin.jpg
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  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,292
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D, very nice render, Mei Lin looks good. I'm assuming most of that was poser only generation4 stuff forced to function in Daz Studio, lol. (I've had little luck with that, just poking a little fun.)
    http://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#images/31472

    Iray is just so much work, and so much waiting around, for what feels like no progress at all. CPU bound, and this computer just crawls at this stuff. I've decided to take the day off to do some work in Studio 3delight, more skin-tone lineups.
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/774402/
    And now I'm curious, just how well Iray can handle all this stuff (none of it Slide3D's) that just doesn't work in 3delight. It would be nice to see Cassia with her hair instead of a kit-bash. After all, if I need to make a completely new set of shaders for that anyway for Studio, it's no lass work then what we are attempting to do with figures and EVERYTHING else for Iray.

    Hell, it may be worth trying to get that HMHM hair re-rigged for G2F, just for FW eve, lol.
    http://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#images/31113/

  • SabbySabby Posts: 98
    edited December 1969

    Kamion99 said:
    So this is my current skin setup.

    I used the automatic conversion rather than the preset.

    I haven't touched the SSS other than to put the SSS direction to -.5 as mentioned by 8eos8.

    However, as you can probably tell I have significantly altered the spec settings.

    I got rid of the spec map on the glossy color (for the main glossy there are no textures at all) set the glossy layered weight to .2 and the glossy roughness to .55 (for the lips i increased the reflectivity to .61 and lowered the roughness to .46).

    I increased the bump to 1.

    I placed my spec maps in top coat weight and set the value to .85, set the roughness to .55, set the layering mode to fresnel, and set the IOR to 2.15.

    My aim is a sort of glossy magazine look. I will probably make another version while looking at some movie stills who's lighting I like for a more traditional realism approach.

    @8eos8 I really love the lighting in your second example I think the veins are a really nice touch, but probably a bit over the top, I think perfect would be a combination of the final two images. I wish it were easier to combine different textures (LIE is a bit slow, especially when modifying a bunch of maps).

    This looks wonderful.

  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 190
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D, very nice render, Mei Lin looks good.

    Octane version of Mei Lin )
    http://slide3d.deviantart.com/art/Mei-Lin-SkinTest-499640398

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,292
    edited March 2015

    Slide3D said:
    Slide3D, very nice render, Mei Lin looks good.

    Octane version of Mei Lin )
    http://slide3d.deviantart.com/art/Mei-Lin-SkinTest-499640398idle curiosity, is that with or without HD? Now I can't remember if she has an HD add-on product, "O" yes she dose. I don't have any of them(DAZ Originals), just some HD add-on figures.
    http://www.daz3d.com/mei-lin-6-hd-add-on

    That Octane one really dose look scary real. There is texture to the gloss, that's whats missing. [returns to deep thought] Can the specular map have a bump map?

    mei_lin_skintest_by_slide3d_Octain_vs_Iray_001.png
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    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 190
    edited March 2015

    Slide3D said:
    Slide3D, very nice render, Mei Lin looks good.

    Octane version of Mei Lin )
    http://slide3d.deviantart.com/art/Mei-Lin-SkinTest-499640398

    idle curiosity, is that with or without HD? Now I can't remember if she has an HD add-on product, "O" yes she dose. I don't have any of them(DAZ Originals), just some HD add-on figures.
    http://www.daz3d.com/mei-lin-6-hd-add-on

    That Octane one really dose look scary real. There is texture to the gloss, that's whats missing. [returns to deep thought]

    yes, she with HD morph
    in Iray can made same skin too, but... need time for study her shaders ))
    i use Octane 2 years... Iray have my interest only one week )


    "look scary real" its are tits effect ))))

    Post edited by Slide3D on
  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 190
    edited March 2015

    Can the specular map have a bump map?

    yes, Octane skin shaders have bump map in specular component

    Post edited by Slide3D on
  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,292
    edited March 2015

    Slide3D said:
    Can the specular map have a bump map?

    yes, Octane skin shaders have bump map in specular componentClearly, dare I say. And that's what appears to be missing in all of the Iray tests I've seen so far. It's either plastic like gloss, or dull play-doh mat-like surface. I need to stop just blindly throwing dials (lol), and go and read the Iray docs end to end. So much to do, so little time, lol.

    I like the DA renders by the way. :coolsmile:

    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 190
    edited December 1969

    So much to do, so little time, lol.

    how old are you?)))
    Grim Reaper is already knocking at your door?)))
  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 190
    edited December 1969

    progress

    prog_sss.PNG
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  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 190
    edited March 2015

    final result )

    iray_mei_lin2.jpg
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    Post edited by Slide3D on
  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,292
    edited March 2015

    Slide3D said:
    final result )
    well, if that is supposed to be exactly like a magazine pinup page from years past, I think you nailed it. Almost looks like she was painted onto a plain at one time, :coolsmile:

    As for age, old enough to remember phones that couldn't go any further then the handset cord could reach, lol.

    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,383
    edited December 1969

    You know, I'm often deleting the translucency map, but when it works, it can add a lot of subtle coolness.

    For example, in my Luy character, the translucency is very red in the nose and ears, and for her that works really well.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,383
    edited March 2015

    Another thought... I really like displacement for things like eyebrows and face close-ups, except, as I've noted, displacement doesn't play well with translucence and SSS (visible lines between surfaces).

    One thing I'm trying now is taking the face bump map into an editor and essentially bringing in/blurring the edge, and using displacement only on face and lips. That way the edge should mesh fine with ears/neck/etc.

    (Theoretically you can do that with ALL body bump maps, but I worry that it'll start being obvious that there are weird smooth lines between body surfaces)

    Edit: After testing... I have to admit people are right, not worth it. I had been hoping to get a better eyebrow effect, but... not really.

    Post edited by Oso3D on
  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,847
    edited December 1969

    Great images Slide.

    I really like displacement for things like eyebrows and face close-ups, except, as I’ve noted, displacement doesn’t play well with translucence and SSS (visible lines between surfaces).

    There are two possibilities about why this is not working correctly. 1 is that they were not created with mid gray as the "base" and white for out and black for in (and the variations of gray associated with). Many content creators started with poser and have never learned to make maps properly for most other render engines. The other is that for displacement to work properly in Iray there needs to be at least one level of subd.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,383
    edited March 2015

    I use fairly stock skins, but I'll check for that.

    And I always put 3 SubD if I'm going to use displacement.

    Edit:
    Checking, it looks like Daz basic maps often use white or black. ... hrm.

    Going to try to fiddle with Bree to see if the problem goes away if I change the maps to neutral gray base

    Post edited by Oso3D on
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,383
    edited December 1969

    In case people are wondering what I'm talking about, this is G2F with Bree default skin, converted to Iray Base.

    Translucency weight is removed and just set to 1 (to show the effect more obviously, but it appears in other cases regardless).

    Displacement uses the bump maps, -.1 to .1. (Though, again, it doesn't matter, it appears regardless)

    I tried changing the black backdrop of the bump map to neutral gray, and it had no effect. I've tried changing the displacement range to 0 - .2, -.2 - 0, no effect.

    It's frustrating, because vascularity and wrinkles as a displacement map has advantages over morphs.

    Lines.jpg
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  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,292
    edited March 2015

    Agreed Khory. Some figures need the displacement bumped up a tad in 3delight, and when the lips and face use drastically different values, I know something is up, lol.

    And no I don't remember whom it was (almost a year ago), just that I could not figure out how to get them to line up at slightingly higher values, lol.

    New GPU with Iray capacity (4GB ram, 384 CUDA cores, GT 730), 7 days plus shipping. :)

    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • tomtom.wtomtom.w Posts: 138
    edited December 1969

    My first attempt at tweaking skin settings in Iray. I started by making the changes suggested in the first post in this thread, and then tried to make Iray show some more bump by increasing the base bump value for the skin to 2, which made at least some bump visible (I put a bikini on her to make the image safe for work, which is really a pity since the effects of the increased bump can be seen better without the bikini bra...).

    So comments, critique and suggestions are welcome.

    The image looked darker and with slightly different colors on the desktop computer with an Nvida card that I made the render on than on the laptop computer with a Radeon chip that I'm writing this on, which complicates things, so I wish all manufacturers, of both graphic cards and displays, would calibrate their stuff to a common standard, both in gamma and in colors.

    Skin_test_12.png
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  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,292
    edited March 2015

    To be honest, they do calibrate the stuff to a margin, tho not to our standards. That color cube, use to be a tiled wall paper for calibrating CRT displays. It is up to the user of the display to do that, lol. It's probably not the Graphics card, it's all binary now.

    Here is the original size that I made way back in 1995-ish. The grid spacing is ten pixels, so I could do up all the adjustments of the old CRTs with the one tile, lol. Today things like convergence is pointless on Flat panels. Only the contrast and brightness (And contrast and brightness for each color if your so lucky to have them on the display).

    I would just set this as a tiled desktop wallpaper, and go to town on the buttons on the display (NOT in the Graphics card properties). A laptop may have different controls from a PC. I never bothered calibrating the one laptop I had years ago, It was only for text, and had a sixteen color EGA display (not 16 bit, 16 colors).

    _ColorDeapth3008sml1.png
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    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,383
    edited March 2015

    Is Victoria 6 HD add-on, are the skin textures 'better' than the SD skin textures? Does it matter?

    I'd rather preserve the look of a character and just add details, if possible, and the HD textures look like they move a few things, like eyebrows.

    Edit: Bah. Looks like Victoria 6 HD details don't work very well if you don't use the Victoria 6 head. I was hoping I could add in some HD touches to the base figure, but not so much (the ears, in particular, get all bumpy and weird)

    Post edited by Oso3D on
  • tomtom.wtomtom.w Posts: 138
    edited December 1969

    The translucency color was too blueish for her brownish skin, so I changed the value for red to 128, which IMHO made the skin look better. And while I was at it I also fixed her eyebrows, though getting them the way I want them would require editing the skin texture (since the skin texture wasn't made for the home made head shape it's on).

    The only light source in the image is Iray's built in sun, set to 8AM on a summer day to get the height above the horizon I wanted, and with the dome rotated so that the light would come from her left, in order to make bumps in her skin show more clearly.

    Skin_test_16.png
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  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,292
    edited December 1969

    Looks good tomtom.w, tho now I hate to ask a proverbial question. It looks like there is fireflies in her eyes, is that possibly a side effect of the water reflection in the eye (tear I think it's called near the lower eyelid)? I only ask, as I hope that isn't something that always happens, and others cover it up in Post Process.

    As for HD mats, I know there is at least one figure in my wishlist, that requires an HD add-on for someone (Stephanie 6 HD Add-On)
    https://www.daz3d.com/ly-tess
    In any case, I think it requires the mats and shape of the figure be made to work with the HD add-on stuff. For example, when the different layers that make up skin pours don't line up, well, lol.

  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,847
    edited December 1969

    TomTom, I feel like her specularity is a bit low and perhaps needs to be a bit rougher when you increase it. Her nose for example has very little shine.


    The translucency color was too blueish for her brownish skin, so I changed the value for red to 128, which IMHO made the skin look better.

    There is actually an adjustment option for skin tone correction when you use the PBR Specular/Glossiness base mix. When base color effect is turned on and Scatter and Transmit is selected you get a new option just below translucence color. You can then pick a color to make that adjustment. I've only tested it a little bit but it has a huge impact with only a touch of tint.

    Is Victoria 6 HD add-on, are the skin textures ‘better’ than the SD skin textures? Does it matter?

    The V6 HD skin texture is one of my favorites (the maps for bump and spec for it not so much.) That said, I don't think it matters all that much. The only real issue I know of is if the lip lines on the texture and the lip lines on V6HD don't match up well. It can look like she isn't very good at putting on her lipstick.

    Looks like Victoria 6 HD details don’t work very well if you don’t use the Victoria 6 head.

    Because the HD Morphs are built on top of the regular morph. I've used partial v6/v6hd with other morphs but its not good without the base morph it was built on. And you can always use regular mophs to alter the V6 with the HD on her. In other words building on to of the two morphs is very doable -see next-


    I know there is at least one figure in my wishlist, that requires an HD add-on for someone (Stephanie 6 HD Add-On)
    https://www.daz3d.com/ly-tess

    Which means they built their morph on top of stephanie with the HD on.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,383
    edited December 1969

    Yeah, I'm having some good results starting with Victoria 6 HD completely, and then tweaking to make her look more black.

    Really trying to see how much range I can get within a few figures rather than trying to get a specialty figure for EVERYTHING.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,318
    edited December 1969

    Khory said:
    TomTom, I feel like her specularity is a bit low and perhaps needs to be a bit rougher when you increase it. Her nose for example has very little shine.

    The translucency color was too blueish for her brownish skin, so I changed the value for red to 128, which IMHO made the skin look better.

    There is actually an adjustment option for skin tone correction when you use the PBR Specular/Glossiness base mix. When base color effect is turned on and Scatter and Transmit is selected you get a new option just below translucence color. You can then pick a color to make that adjustment. I've only tested it a little bit but it has a huge impact with only a touch of tint.

    Is Victoria 6 HD add-on, are the skin textures ‘better’ than the SD skin textures? Does it matter?

    The V6 HD skin texture is one of my favorites (the maps for bump and spec for it not so much.) That said, I don't think it matters all that much. The only real issue I know of is if the lip lines on the texture and the lip lines on V6HD don't match up well. It can look like she isn't very good at putting on her lipstick.

    Looks like Victoria 6 HD details don’t work very well if you don’t use the Victoria 6 head.

    Because the HD Morphs are built on top of the regular morph. I've used partial v6/v6hd with other morphs but its not good without the base morph it was built on. And you can always use regular mophs to alter the V6 with the HD on her. In other words building on to of the two morphs is very doable -see next-


    I know there is at least one figure in my wishlist, that requires an HD add-on for someone (Stephanie 6 HD Add-On)
    https://www.daz3d.com/ly-tess

    Which means they built their morph on top of stephanie with the HD on.

    Re: option that shows up in pbr specular/glossiness, you mean the SS reflectance tint?

  • tomtom.wtomtom.w Posts: 138
    edited March 2015

    @zarcondeegrissom

    They're fireflies (or specks as I call them, like specks on photographic negatives), and have a tendency to appear not only in eyes but also in other darker areas of a render. So I imagine that people routinely fill them in during post-render work.

    The first image below shows two things, that a translucency color of 192-192-192 seems to work best for browner skin and that fireflies/specks appear in the eyes even when the Firefly filter is active, the quality has been increased to 1.5 and the converge ratio has been increased to 97%.

    The second image shows why the default camera settings in DS (Frame width 36mm, Focal length 65mm) aren't good for portraits. The render to the left was made with the default settings, and shows a distorted head, with a face that seems narrower than it is, a nose that is more prominent than it really is and ears that seem to fold back against the head, while the second render, where the focal length was increased to 100mm and the distance between the camera and the subject was increased enough to make the head fill the frame (which was set to a ratio of 1:1.5, the same as in 24x36mm film), shows the head/face as it really is. A focal length of 100mm isn't mandatory, but the optimal focal length for portraits is 2-2.5x the diameter of the "negative", or for a frame width of 36mm somewhere between 85 and 110mm. Which is well known among photographers, but might not be equally well known among DS enthusiasts.

    Skin_test_17+18.png
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    Skin_test_20.png
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    Post edited by tomtom.w on
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,383
    edited December 1969

    If you could post tips on sample camera settings that are good for different situations, I, for one, would be overjoyed. ;)

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,318
    edited December 1969

    tomtom.w said:
    The second image shows why the default camera settings in DS (Frame width 36mm, Focal length 65mm) aren't good for portraits. The render to the left was made with the default settings, and shows a distorted head, with a face that seems narrower than it is, a nose that is more prominent than it really is and ears that seem to fold back against the head, while the second render, where the focal length was increased to 100mm and the distance between the camera and the subject was increased enough to make the head fill the frame (which was set to a ratio of 1:1.5, the same as in 24x36mm film), shows the head/face as it really is. A focal length of 100mm isn't mandatory, but the optimal focal length for portraits is 2-2.5x the diameter of the "negative", or for a frame width of 36mm somewhere between 85 and 110mm. Which is well known among photographers, but might not be equally well known among DS enthusiasts.

    Ha! DAZ made me redo an entire product's promos for that exact reason once (all the face shots looked distorted from using that camera setup)! That was a hard lesson learned.

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