Fiddling with Iray skin settings...

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  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 190
    edited March 2015

    in photography as in renderers simulate natural lighting with artificial because there is no alternative in indoors

    These sources are not part of the picture
    the geometry of the room to render irrelevant
    You can just put the floor and the wall and use the environment lighting with HDRI

    unbiased able to realistically render light using HDRI
    using HDRI editors can ask them the required number of light sources and their location

    so you can greatly save time rendering
    more natural lighting in photo is the MAIN PROBLEM)
    no one seeks to make sharp overexposure of artificial light

    Post edited by Slide3D on
  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,248
    edited December 1969

    I am under this persistent misconception that the sun still works in Dome mode after you set an HRDI.

    Pretty sure that's NOT actually the case. When you set an HRDI, the Sun controls disappear.

    So my early light setting should not say Sun and HRDI. Its HRDI only, plus the three photometric spots.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,580
    edited December 1969

    I'm looking at DA's light rigs and render settings.

    No offense, but they ought to come with directions and some explanations for the choices made.

    These might be usable, but... not out of the box.

    Once you get used to it and figure out some stuff that works, I find it's MUCH easier to set up lighting in Iray than in 3Delight.

    My go-to lighting:

    HDRI environment lighting for ambient light.

    Tweak Render settings / Tone Mapping until exposure is about right.

    There's often a lack of light highlighting what you want to see on the figure, so I then add a photometric point light.

    Set the light geometry to disk or rectangle at height/width ~200, and place it a few meters away and out of the camera view. Either just above ground level or above the figure to shine down.

    Then I do 'point at' the figure (or some part of the figure.)

    Tweak luminance until it plays nice with the environment.


    Indoors, I make any included lights into emitters, and possibly place an additional light source if I need to highlight a face or something.

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,319
    edited March 2015

    Slide3D said:
    in photography as in renderers simulate natural lighting with artificial because there is no alternative in indoors

    These sources are not part of the picture
    the geometry of the room to render irrelevant
    You can just put the floor and the wall and use the environment lighting with HDRI

    unbiased able to realistically render light using HDRI
    using HDRI editors can ask them the required number of light sources and their location

    so you can greatly save time rendering
    more natural lighting in photo is the MAIN PROBLEM)
    no one seeks to make sharp overexposure of artificial light

    I'll venture a try then. How do I make an HDRI map for my "Casting Reflections" set?
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/791987/
    AND, a true Photo neutral exact replacement HDRI for my test chamber? Thoughts? If it will beat the render time on my last post, I'll go for it.
    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 190
    edited December 1969

    I am under this persistent misconception that the sun still works in Dome mode after you set an HRDI.

    check headlamp in camera setting
  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,248
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    in photography as in renderers simulate natural lighting with artificial because there is no alternative in indoors

    These sources are not part of the picture
    the geometry of the room to render irrelevant
    You can just put the floor and the wall and use the environment lighting with HDRI

    unbiased able to realistically render light using HDRI
    using HDRI editors can ask them the required number of light sources and their location

    so you can greatly save time rendering
    more natural lighting in photo is the MAIN PROBLEM)
    no one seeks to make sharp overexposure of artificial light

    I understand your argument, and I partially agree with you.

    An unbiased render engine is still a simulation just like a camera is a simulation. They are both simulating how a much more complex system works, they are simulating human sight. And no camera or render engine is capable of the level of detail of the system that they are simulating because that system works subjectively where the physics that defines the camera and the render engine are (mostly) objective.

    We are on different sides of the same coin, here.

  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 190
    edited December 1969

    my advice about the use of HDRI as a more practical way
    true to the scene where the character on the background wall and floor
    if you can remove the ceiling and side walls that do not fall into the frame is more reasonable to use HDRI

  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,248
    edited December 1969

    I'm looking at DA's light rigs and render settings.

    No offense, but they ought to come with directions and some explanations for the choices made.

    These might be usable, but... not out of the box.

    lol, yea, I threw out the first, ah, well it was white-out test render. There set up for the default ISO100 render settings, at least the 4-point one that I started with.

    This is looking MUCH BETTER then my last many attempts.
    (EDIT)
    IRAY rend info : CPU (8 threads): 933 iterations, 15.693s init, 2283.516s render
    Total Rendering Time: 38 minutes 21.36 seconds
    Completed by 95% convergence limit.

    enormously better

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,319
    edited March 2015

    Slide3D said:
    my advice about the use of HDRI as a more practical way
    true to the scene where the character on the background wall and floor
    if you can remove the ceiling and side walls that do not fall into the frame is more reasonable to use HDRI
    The walls are mirrors in the "Casting Reflections" set for a reason, all of them, lol.

    The TDK RF test chamber, IF you can do that in HDRI, and have the shadows from in the room cast onto the 3D HDRI walls? yes, they have depth to them. There RF absorbers.

    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,319
    edited December 1969

    I'm looking at DA's light rigs and render settings.

    No offense, but they ought to come with directions and some explanations for the choices made.

    These might be usable, but... not out of the box.

    lol, yea, I threw out the first, ah, well it was white-out test render. There set up for the default ISO100 render settings, at least the 4-point one that I started with.

    This is looking MUCH BETTER then my last many attempts.
    (EDIT)
    IRAY rend info : CPU (8 threads): 933 iterations, 15.693s init, 2283.516s render
    Total Rendering Time: 38 minutes 21.36 seconds
    Completed by 95% convergence limit.

    enormously betterThanks! Done in under an hour or two, and not even a thousand iterations to get to 80% converged, I'm impressed.

  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,847
    edited December 1969

    Skin is a dielectric surface, and using the melalicity shader with metalicity off seems a perfectly acceptable usage .

    Except that the metalicity base has no option for the SSS reflectance tint and the lack of that seems to be leading people to make adjustments to the whole base texture out of program rather than a teeny color adjustment in studio. I've also noticed that the over ruddy to dark textures are far more common from the get go when people are using the metalicity base.

  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,248
    edited March 2015

    Khory said:
    Skin is a dielectric surface, and using the melalicity shader with metalicity off seems a perfectly acceptable usage .

    Except that the metalicity base has no option for the SSS reflectance tint and the lack of that seems to be leading people to make adjustments to the whole base texture out of program rather than a teeny color adjustment in studio. I've also noticed that the over ruddy to dark textures are far more common from the get go when people are using the metalicity base.

    I see your point, however... all you have to do is change the Base Color Effect to Scatter & Transmit to enable the SSS Reflectance tint, regardless of which shader base you use.

    I find the extra color slider's effectiveness to be inconsequential when dealing with supersaturated textures, however. The problem IS with the textures, and I am one of those people going outside the program to fix them, because inside the program... you really can't.

    Post edited by evilded777 on
  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,248
    edited December 1969

    Anyone got any good Photoshop tips for making a translucence mask out of a diffuse color map?

    Talking about removing basically all of the diffuse details except the eyebrows, and making it into a black and white image (that's a guess on my part, the b/w, based on something I read).

    I have read Muskettu's tutorial, but there is no equivalent plugin that I know of for Photoshop.

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,319
    edited December 1969

    Khory said:
    Skin is a dielectric surface, and using the melalicity shader with metalicity off seems a perfectly acceptable usage .

    Except that the metalicity base has no option for the SSS reflectance tint and the lack of that seems to be leading people to make adjustments to the whole base texture out of program rather than a teeny color adjustment in studio. I've also noticed that the over ruddy to dark textures are far more common from the get go when people are using the metalicity base.

    I see your point, however... all you have to do is change the Base Color Effect to Scatter & Transmit to enable the SSS Reflectance tint, regardless of which shader base you use.

    I find the that extra color slider's effectiveness to be inconsequential when dealing with supersaturated textures, however. The problem IS with the textures, and I am one of those people going outside the program to fix them, because inside the program... you really can't.I had thought about something like that, 'Saturation' bit. Allot. Wachiwi is not just 'Mid toned' for a figure. Her maps are all backed by color. I'm thinking of trying this without that backing color.

  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,248
    edited December 1969

    M6 default Skin, Nevio.

    Still can't quite get the gloss on the face right, even though it is more prominent on the rest of the body and looks a lot closer to where I think it should. Not sure if this is because of the specular maps, or settings inconsistency (the face being a lot more polygon heavy... I've seen this produce odd results elsewhere, though I do not know if that is the case here).

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  • tomtom.wtomtom.w Posts: 138
    edited December 1969

    I am under this persistent misconception that the sun still works in Dome mode after you set an HRDI.

    Pretty sure that's NOT actually the case. When you set an HRDI, the Sun controls disappear.

    So my early light setting should not say Sun and HRDI. Its HRDI only, plus the three photometric spots.

    When you use an HDR environment the environment light is based on the HDR image, with the amount of light you get based on the relative brightness of the HDR image and the direction the light comes from decided by where the brightest spot in the image is. So if there's a bright sun in your HDR image you'll get a bright sun in your environment, with the environment sun shining from where the sun in the HDR image is, and if you use a studio HDR image your light will come from where the brightest spots in that HDR image is (which can be one or more directions depending on the light setup the studio HDR simulates). So yes, you can get sunlight, but no it's not the normal Iray sun that is shining.

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,319
    edited December 1969

    Anyone got any good Photoshop tips for making a translucence mask out of a diffuse color map?

    Talking about removing basically all of the diffuse details except the eyebrows, and making it into a black and white image (that's a guess on my part, the b/w, based on something I read).

    I have read Muskettu's tutorial, but there is no equivalent plugin that I know of for Photoshop.

    Extracting body flesh thickness from a diffuse map, that's a good one. I'm not entirely sure it is possible.

    I'm sure my ears are far more translucent then my thick skull :blank: (lol) or other parts of the body that have bone in them (Wrists, ankles, knees, etc). And getting that map to go smoothly from the ear to the side of the head.

  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,248
    edited December 1969

    Anyone got any good Photoshop tips for making a translucence mask out of a diffuse color map?

    Talking about removing basically all of the diffuse details except the eyebrows, and making it into a black and white image (that's a guess on my part, the b/w, based on something I read).

    I have read Muskettu's tutorial, but there is no equivalent plugin that I know of for Photoshop.

    Extracting body flesh thickness from a diffuse map, that's a good one. I'm not entirely sure it is possible.

    I'm sure my ears are far more translucent then my thick skull :blank: (lol) or other parts of the body that have bone in them (Wrists, ankles, knees, etc). And getting that map to go smoothly from the ear to the side of the head.

    That is not my intent. I am not looking to control the SSS with the map, really just looking to mask out the eyebrows, so that there are not effected.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,580
    edited December 1969

    I actually did that, two different ways:

    Way 1:
    Skin builder, create a skin without eyebrows. LIE baker to get that set of textures.
    Add eyebrows, save that mask separately. Once I convert all the skins, use it as the translucency map.

    Way 2:
    Pretty much the same, except use Bree makeup 'without eyebrows' option.


    I ended up finding the results pretty much unnoticeable and not worth the effort, and began contemplating using LAMH to actually build proper eyebrows (and then discovered I find LAMH way too hard to do fine stuff like that)

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,319
    edited March 2015

    Anyone got any good Photoshop tips for making a translucence mask out of a diffuse color map?

    Talking about removing basically all of the diffuse details except the eyebrows, and making it into a black and white image (that's a guess on my part, the b/w, based on something I read).

    I have read Muskettu's tutorial, but there is no equivalent plugin that I know of for Photoshop.

    Extracting body flesh thickness from a diffuse map, that's a good one. I'm not entirely sure it is possible.

    I'm sure my ears are far more translucent then my thick skull :blank: (lol) or other parts of the body that have bone in them (Wrists, ankles, knees, etc). And getting that map to go smoothly from the ear to the side of the head.

    That is not my intent. I am not looking to control the SSS with the map, really just looking to mask out the eyebrows, so that there are not effected.Layers, and a brush tool (pencil, whatever it is in PS). Load the SSS and diffuse maps in separate layers. Add a third layer, and using that pencil thing, draw where the eyebrows are on the empty third layer. then click the visibility thing (it was also an eyeball in PhotoDeluxe) to make the Diffuse map disappear. This should leave the SSS mat, with your brow overlay visible on-top of the SSS layer. Export as jpg or png.

    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,248
    edited December 1969

    I actually did that, two different ways:

    Way 1:
    Skin builder, create a skin without eyebrows. LIE baker to get that set of textures.
    Add eyebrows, save that mask separately. Once I convert all the skins, use it as the translucency map.

    Way 2:
    Pretty much the same, except use Bree makeup 'without eyebrows' option.


    I ended up finding the results pretty much unnoticeable and not worth the effort, and began contemplating using LAMH to actually build proper eyebrows (and then discovered I find LAMH way too hard to do fine stuff like that)

    I'm still waiting for Skin Builder for G2Male....probably wait forever.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,580
    edited December 1969

    You could probably also use a bump map and play with contrast/levels in some photo editor.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 55,195
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    the number of light sources very increase render time

    That doesn't seem to be true, as long as at least one light is used (i.e. not a pure dome render) then the number of lights doesn't slow renders, it may even speed them up.

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,319
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    the number of light sources very increase render time

    That doesn't seem to be true, as long as at least one light is used (i.e. not a pure dome render) then the number of lights doesn't slow renders, it may even speed them up.That and I'm not convinced the the Top Of The World set falls in that category. It is a sky-box, tho it is six separate maps for each side. Plus a spot to replace the sun (inside the bax). Even after leting the thing crunch for four hours, it never reached a good convergence.

    A plane old box, and four spots, and done in under an hour. Some things are much faster with spots, even tons of them. Other things prefer the large emissive box.

    "O", the comparison render is done. FW Wachiwi, and FW Eve in 3delight. Time to fuss with Iray again.

    CRset002007Eve001007_3DL_Render_3.jpg
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  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,248
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    the number of light sources very increase render time

    That doesn't seem to be true, as long as at least one light is used (i.e. not a pure dome render) then the number of lights doesn't slow renders, it may even speed them up.

    That and I'm not convinced the the Top Of The World set falls in that category. It is a sky-box, tho it is six separate maps for each side. Plus a spot to replace the sun (inside the bax). Even after leting the thing crunch for four hours, it never reached a good convergence.

    A plane old box, and four spots, and done in under an hour. Some things are much faster with spots, even tons of them. Other things prefer the large emissive box.

    "O", the comparison render is done. FW Wachiwi, and FW Eve in 3delight. Time to fuss with Iray again.

    Did you try to use one of Flip Mode's sets in Iray (Top of The World)? How did you configure the environment settings for that, if you did?

    I love his stuff and setups with the sky box, but transferring them to a different render engine can be difficult.

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,319
    edited March 2015

    Slide3D said:
    the number of light sources very increase render time

    That doesn't seem to be true, as long as at least one light is used (i.e. not a pure dome render) then the number of lights doesn't slow renders, it may even speed them up.

    That and I'm not convinced the the Top Of The World set falls in that category. It is a sky-box, tho it is six separate maps for each side. Plus a spot to replace the sun (inside the bax). Even after leting the thing crunch for four hours, it never reached a good convergence.

    A plane old box, and four spots, and done in under an hour. Some things are much faster with spots, even tons of them. Other things prefer the large emissive box.

    "O", the comparison render is done. FW Wachiwi, and FW Eve in 3delight. Time to fuss with Iray again.

    Did you try to use one of Flip Mode's sets in Iray (Top of The World)? How did you configure the environment settings for that, if you did?

    I love his stuff and setups with the sky box, but transferring them to a different render engine can be difficult.Yes, that is where the first few I did were in this thread. Top Of The World.
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/787328/
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/788859/
    I need to dig threw the Show your Iray renders to find the settings, lol. I had to move each sky-box map (north, south, east, west, top, bottom) to the emissive layer color, and replace the sun with a Photometric spot, way out at the edge of the box.
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/783873/

    lol, I think I need more light, lol. the room is only 160 feet across :coolhmm:

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    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,248
    edited December 1969

    how far away are the lights? Are they within the geometry of the room?

    You definitely need to find more light, don't know if that's the lights or the settings on the camera.

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,319
    edited March 2015

    how far away are the lights? Are they within the geometry of the room?

    You definitely need to find more light, don't know if that's the lights or the settings on the camera.

    I just plugged in blindly something to see where to go. I don't hide my lights in my renders. There is two at the floor opposite of each other, and two near the roof... About thirty feet away (more for the ones on the roof).

    That's the fun part, I get to decide where the real lights need to go. I borrowed the lights from my test chamber before so I could just work on the chamber layout.
    (EDIT)
    Note to self. You cant select multiple lights in the scene tab, and control them all. lol.

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    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,319
    edited March 2015

    Sorry, fell asleep on the keyboard :red: Here is the adjusted lights thus far. Enough to see whats going on with the set. Now to fix the walls.

    At about sixty feet away, and forty feet up [ whatever the root( x^2 + y^2 ) is for that ], I had to increase the far off corridor lights to about 700,000 lumins each (Ill spread them out later to make soft boxes). The two key/halo lights on the floor are at 150,000 Lumins each. The upper two spotlights 'WhtSun' are at 700,000 lumins each.

    Um, yah, it's allot of light, for a very big room (160ft x 160ft).
    about 2,400 Lumens - single 150 watt halogen work-light bilb.
    about 5,950 Lumens - single 300 watt halogen work-light bilb.
    9k to 11k lumens - single 500 watt halogen work-light bilb.

    Typical Photo Strobe: 800,000 to 3.2 million lumens (Though it is a very short period of time.)
    Typical TV/Video filming light: 8,000 to 15,000 lumens. - Daz_Spooky
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/784881/

    (EDIT) I'm ending this here, as there is other stuff I want to work on today. I added a 700,000 lumen point-light on the ceiling dead center, with a shield directly below it, and fussed with the walls a tad more. The geometry of the room, makes a bid difference in render time as well. The more complex, the longer the render times. It's not just lights.
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    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,319
    edited March 2015

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/792000/
    quick recap... Here is Ginger, Wachiwi, and FW Eve, in 3delight. The former run did not have Wachiwi and Eve with there SSS mats, and Ginger was not in it.
    And to put this on the same page in this thread, here is that Iray converted mat on Ginger. I have yet to convert Wachiwi and Eve's mats to Iray.
    (EDIT) It had been mentioned that ginger looked rather orange in a test render before anything had been done to her for Iray. It got me thinking about true skin tones, rather then what we often see in media with all the colored lights and photoshoping out defects etc. Apparently there is a few charts that show skin darkness from 1 threw 36, tho I know that there are hints of color to some people.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Luschan's_chromatic_scale
    Where dose Wachiwi fall on that scale, or me for that matter, lol. Sounds like another 3delight lineup in the making, lol. And that scale is a tad bit out of date (pre 1950s), replaced by some "Fitzpatrick scale".

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    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
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