Fiddling with Iray skin settings...

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  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    8eos8 said:
    Unfortunately Gimp doesn't have a high-pass filter or the luminosity blend mode

    Check out G'Mic...

    http://gmic.eu/gimp.shtml

    It has at least the high pass filter...

  • Takeo.KenseiTakeo.Kensei Posts: 1,303
    edited December 1969

    8eos8 said:
    Jimbow said:
    If you fancy trying converting your diffuse textures to albedo pbr maps and have Photoshop CS4, here's a method that I've been using for my latest skin setups which are mostly Base Colour Scatter&Transmit; these days, heavily using translucency/subsurface 'meat' maps. Even though there's no save command in the action, be sure to backup your original textures. You'll need to modify the luminance of selected areas (lips and nipples mostly), but it works great so far for extracting base pigment/colour information from the traditional diffuse texture.

    Unfortunately Gimp doesn't have a high-pass filter or the luminosity blend mode, but after reading this I came up with this procedure:

    1. Copy the background layer
    2. Colors > Desaturate and pick Luminosity
    3. Copy the desaturated layer
    4. Filters > Blur > Gaussian Blur, use a radius of 25px
    5. Set the blend mode to Grain Extract and merge down the two grayscale layers
    6. Set the blend mode to Value on the new layer, merge down and set opacity to 70%

    I also found a plugin for color/frequency seperation, that would be another way to do it.

    I rather use Wavelet decompose in Gimp

  • 8eos88eos8 Posts: 166
    edited December 1969

    Thanks, I'll check both of those out.

  • bohemian3bohemian3 Posts: 689
    edited May 2015

    things I've been fiddling with:

    Thanks all, again for all the shares. Based on information here and other posts, I've changed my approach since my last posting.

    1) I start with the base iRay skin settings from DAZ. I create a PBR skin maps (in photoshop: duplicate layer, desaturate, inverts, soft light)
    2) I still lighten it with 25-50% screen layer, based on skin color
    3) I don't scatter transmit on base layer anymore, instead add .12 refraction weight - according to iRay documentation refraction works with sss - seems to give it a softer light affect.
    4) You still need really good normal maps, and a good HDR.
    5) This product had interesting velvet maps - bluesh-gray with veins which I use as my translucency map with the color still the defualt iRay DAZ skin. It's ultra subtle in this image. (Also introduces a blueish tine into the calculation since you don't have the sss tint without transmit. )
    http://www.daz3d.com/interjection-booster-shot-one

    Again, can't stress enough how I'm a hobbyist playing with our new toy - I post to spark dialogue and experiment as we all work to find the best way to render skin with iRay. Thanks all.

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    m6.jpg
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    Post edited by bohemian3 on
  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,248
    edited December 1969

    that's pretty damn impressive, Bohemian

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,579
    edited December 1969

    I think the biggest thing about all of this is the diffuse needs to be desaturated and it's brightness range narrowed, and you need good normal/displacement/bump. Then a hint of depth (translucence, SSS, something)

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 9,282
    edited December 1969

    Great advice and examples here. WOOF

  • ToyenToyen Posts: 1,642
    edited December 1969

    My latest one, I will be testing lighting with this one. I don´t really like the sharp shadows, should have used something else than distant lights I guess.

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  • JimbowJimbow Posts: 556
    edited May 2015

    The quality of the skins appearing in this thread just shows there's more than one way to crack eggs. Really nice work. Here's my 67th version of flesh with Ryze's bodypaint and Lyoness Anita's dirt extracted for adding to the albedo skin textures, and Parris's new skin normal maps remapped to G2M uv's using Softimage's Ultimapper. I've ditched Base Colour Scatter&Transmit; after seeing what Scatter Only looked like and liking what I saw. It's much, much easier to work with, too, especially with glossy reflections.

    One thing I found helped was extracting the detail from a bump map which gives access to the pores and creases, increasing the contrast and fiddling some more, then screening that on top of the translucency weight map. It has the effect of thinning the skin in the pores and crevices, and adds more detail because of the "meat map" plugged into the translucency colour. I suspect it also emulates real skin, with reduced thickness in the pores, which in reality are deep pits in the skin anyway. No specular maps used.

    Mesolithic_skin67_Crop_1k_JimBowers2015.jpg
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    Post edited by Jimbow on
  • Arnold CArnold C Posts: 740
    edited December 1969

    bohemian3 said:
    things I've been fiddling with:

    Thanks all, again for all the shares. Based on information here and other posts, I've changed my approach since my last posting.

    1) I start with the base iRay skin settings from DAZ. I create a PBR skin maps (in photoshop: duplicate layer, desaturate, inverts, soft light)
    2) I still lighten it with 25-50% screen layer, based on skin color
    3) I don't scatter transmit on base layer anymore, instead add .12 refraction weight - according to iRay documentation refraction works with sss - seems to give it a softer light affect.
    4) You still need really good normal maps, and a good HDR.
    5) This product had interesting velvet maps - bluesh-gray with veins which I use as my translucency map with the color still the defualt iRay DAZ skin. It's ultra subtle in this image. (Also introduces a blueish tine into the calculation since you don't have the sss tint without transmit. )
    http://www.daz3d.com/interjection-booster-shot-one

    Again, can't stress enough how I'm a hobbyist playing with our new toy - I post to spark dialogue and experiment as we all work to find the best way to render skin with iRay. Thanks all.

    Looks really nice.
    As Refractive Index I'd choose a more appropriate value than that of water. Although water is a main ingredient of the human physiology, we're made of more than that.
    When using "PBR Specular/Glossines", make sure your "Glossy Specular" color matches your "Refractive Index" value, to make your results coming out in a correct way. You did put in a 1.33, but your specular color f.e. still is for the default value of 1.5.
    The formula to calculate the correct specular color in linear sRGB for your IOR would be:

    Specular Color = ("Refractive Index" - 1)² / ("Refractive Index" + 1)²

    The number you get is the value you'll have to put in for the red, green and blue colors. (Don't just type in a RGB color, if you got one. They're mostly rounded, and for a RGB 53 53 53 there are several possible linear sRGB color values. But only one will match your refractive index exactly).
    Or you can pick one from the list I posted on post #1468 on Page 98 of the "Show Us Your Iray Renders. Part II" thread to make it easier for everyone. :)

    Glossiness: the human epidermis is very dry, the gloss of it comes mostly from the oily film on top of it due to it's high reflectance. A good value for the glossiness of skin would be around 0.3 (or 0.7 for Glossy Roughness).
    Then add a glossiness amount to your Top Coat that matches your taste. You can play with values from 0.7 to 0.99. Putting in a 1.0 would get you a perfect reflectance, which doesn't look very realistic, except your character is a dipped-in-oil one. Be aware of that this one's rounded, too. Putting in a 0.995 you'll get a 1.0 and an oiled-pig-look. A subtle oiliness IMO starts at around 0.77. For the ears, face and head I add 0.04 to 0.05 to that value to reflect that the skin of that parts mostly is more oily than the rest of the body.

    Layer Weights: You're working in a linear environment. The sum of the weights of your layers shouldn't exceed an amount of 1.0 in any way, or you're no longer linear and the results you get aren't anymore based on the (even) correct data you put in.

  • bohemian3bohemian3 Posts: 689
    edited December 1969

    Or you can pick one from the list I posted on post #1468 on Page 98 of the "Show Us Your Iray Renders. Part II" thread to make it easier for everyone. :)

    Thanks for the info. I look forward to incorporating the suggestions into the shader this weekend. One thing I can't figure out (and feel real dumb). Based on your chart how do you convert the decimal .0289420 into rgb for DAZ - I can't find that anywhere on the web but I may not be searching the right terms. Thanks, again for taking the time to give feedback. Much appreciated.

  • Arnold CArnold C Posts: 740
    edited December 1969

    bohemian3 said:

    Thanks for the info. I look forward to incorporating the suggestions into the shader this weekend. One thing I can't figure out (and feel real dumb). Based on your chart how do you convert the decimal .0289420 into rgb for DAZ - I can't find that anywhere on the web but I may not be searching the right terms. Thanks, again for taking the time to give feedback. Much appreciated.

    You're welcome. No need to, it took me some time to get used to, too.
    There's no need to convert the decimal, this value is already ready-to-use. It is the color in a linear sRGB formate (as "float").
    You have to either rightklick each value in the color slot (like in the picture below) and type it in there, or you can STRG + Leftclick on the color slot and a window will pop up where you can type it in, too.
    Just make sure you put it in for each red, green, and blue color value, or you'll get a very different color.

    color.jpg
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  • ironcheeseironcheese Posts: 60
    edited December 1969

    8eos8 said:
    So I finally figured out how to use SSS Reflectance Tint properly without making Olympia look like a space alien (the suggested value in the docs seems to be way off...) and I redid my skin setup based on some recent suggestions in the Iray render thread. The main change here was to set the gamma of the skin textures in Gimp to 2.2 (making them a lot lighter) and move them from Base Color to Translucency Color, and to put desaturated versions of the textures in Base Color. I also tried out the Macro skin textures (bottom 2 images), setting them up the same way. I wasn't able to use the SSS maps that come with them though, because setting the texture on Transmitted Color doesn't have any visible effect, only changing its color works (guess I should file a bug...) Still, they look very nice to me using just the diffuse and normal maps.

    Base Color = desaturated textures + gray (HSV 0/0/60) (can use lighter gray for paler skin; or white if using albedo textures for translucency)
    Translucency Weight = 0.8
    Base Color Effect = Scatter & Transmit
    Translucency Color = white + diffuse textures (set gamma to 2.2) (update: or use albedo textures)
    SSS Reflectance Tint = HSV 180/85/120 (this should be a dull greenish-gray, like the color of a corpse)

    Hi 8eos8, thank you for sharing your settings. Those in the first page really helped me out in starting up...
    However I have a problem with this one above (which in the end is your favourite one :)
    Putting desaturated textures Base Color and diffuse textures in the translucency color for me gives out a gray skin, even if course I followed your instruction literally.
    So I was wondering what is the right shader to modify with your suggestions: iray uber base or G2 optimized? is it PBR Metallicity/Roughness or Specular/Glossiness...

    I wonder what am I doing wrong

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  • 8eos88eos8 Posts: 166
    edited May 2015

    I was using Uber Base with Metallicity/Roughness. Did you also set the Base Color Effect to Scatter & Transmit instead of Scatter Only?

    I've got a bit of a different setup now though, I'll be posting details soon...

    Post edited by 8eos8 on
  • ironcheeseironcheese Posts: 60
    edited December 1969

    8eos8 said:
    I was using Uber Base with Metallicity/Roughness. Did you also set the Base Color Effect to Scatter & Transmit instead of Scatter Only?

    I've got a bit of a different setup now though, I'll be posting details soon...

    Yes, I did that... maybe there is something corrupted in my shader I will start it from scratch :(
    Thank You!

  • IsazformsIsazforms Posts: 203
    edited December 1969

    MSC_72 said:
    8eos8 said:
    So I finally figured out how to use SSS Reflectance Tint properly without making Olympia look like a space alien (the suggested value in the docs seems to be way off...) and I redid my skin setup based on some recent suggestions in the Iray render thread. The main change here was to set the gamma of the skin textures in Gimp to 2.2 (making them a lot lighter) and move them from Base Color to Translucency Color, and to put desaturated versions of the textures in Base Color. I also tried out the Macro skin textures (bottom 2 images), setting them up the same way. I wasn't able to use the SSS maps that come with them though, because setting the texture on Transmitted Color doesn't have any visible effect, only changing its color works (guess I should file a bug...) Still, they look very nice to me using just the diffuse and normal maps.

    Base Color = desaturated textures + gray (HSV 0/0/60) (can use lighter gray for paler skin; or white if using albedo textures for translucency)
    Translucency Weight = 0.8
    Base Color Effect = Scatter & Transmit
    Translucency Color = white + diffuse textures (set gamma to 2.2) (update: or use albedo textures)
    SSS Reflectance Tint = HSV 180/85/120 (this should be a dull greenish-gray, like the color of a corpse)

    Hi 8eos8, thank you for sharing your settings. Those in the first page really helped me out in starting up...
    However I have a problem with this one above (which in the end is your favourite one :)
    Putting desaturated textures Base Color and diffuse textures in the translucency color for me gives out a gray skin, even if course I followed your instruction literally.
    So I was wondering what is the right shader to modify with your suggestions: iray uber base or G2 optimized? is it PBR Metallicity/Roughness or Specular/Glossiness...

    I wonder what am I doing wrong

    Same here! My test render with this settings looks like that...

  • 8eos88eos8 Posts: 166
    edited May 2015

    Aack, sorry about that, maybe I missed a step in writing up my notes. What I was trying to do with the base color was have a grayscale mask to keep the eyebrows dark, and it also interacted with the other colors in some mysterious way to make everything look right, but setting it up for different skins turned out to be really fiddly (especially the SSS reflectance tint).

    What I'm doing now is to put in base color the diffuse map (actually an "albedo" map as described in the last couple pages) and set the translucency color to a dusky pinkish color (0.5, 0.24, 0.19), and added an eyebrow mask for the face surface (this is actually what the shader documentation recommends to do). This lets me use a reflectance tint of (0.7, 0.94, 0.98) which is closer to what the docs recommend.

    Then for top coat, I decided it was better to use it to represent the entire top layer of dead skin cells and not just the oils and sweat, so for that I set the color to 10-20% gray and IOR=1.55, and then I adjust weight and roughness until it looks good (so far I'm using 0.15 weight and 0.4 roughness, but I need to test more with different skins). Also tried out Kamion99's suggestion of adding a tiling noise texture to the bump map, and then I inverted that for the roughness map.

    Anyways, I just discovered the Shader Mixer, so I think I'm going to be working with that from now instead of trying to get Uber Shader to do what I want. :)

    Post edited by 8eos8 on
  • DarwinsMishapDarwinsMishap Posts: 3,598
    edited December 1969

    Just really got into transferring my Poser 9+ shaders for Trystan to Iray. Tweaked a bit after the initial posts and will continue to do so until the skin Iray shaders are where I want, then figure out the crack issue at the neck.

    updated_trystan_skin_iray_shader_face_shot.jpg
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  • IppotamusIppotamus Posts: 1,470
    edited May 2015

    I am not sure how to search for the answer to this, so I apologize if it has been covered.
    I am so confused on how the color values are now being displayed in DAZ studio surfaces.
    For example, I look at a screen shot for the skin settings. For Translucency Color I see: 1.00: 0.31: 0.27
    But when I go to change the colors I get the standard rgb/hue saturation fields ... .... ...
    Is there a way to enter the actual numbers: 1.00: 0.31: 0.27 ?
    It must be there. I just do not see it. :)

    Post edited by Ippotamus on
  • 8eos88eos8 Posts: 166
    edited May 2015

    You can right-click on each number to edit it. (There may be other ways too, I'm still pretty new to DS)
    Also, it's useful to remember that 186 in RGB color = 0.5 in linear color.

    Post edited by 8eos8 on
  • Second-CircleSecond-Circle Posts: 49
    edited December 1969

    bohemian3 said:
    things I've been fiddling with:

    Thanks all, again for all the shares. Based on information here and other posts, I've changed my approach since my last posting.

    1) I start with the base iRay skin settings from DAZ. I create a PBR skin maps (in photoshop: duplicate layer, desaturate, inverts, soft light)
    2) I still lighten it with 25-50% screen layer, based on skin color
    3) I don't scatter transmit on base layer anymore, instead add .12 refraction weight - according to iRay documentation refraction works with sss - seems to give it a softer light affect.
    4) You still need really good normal maps, and a good HDR.
    5) This product had interesting velvet maps - bluesh-gray with veins which I use as my translucency map with the color still the defualt iRay DAZ skin. It's ultra subtle in this image. (Also introduces a blueish tine into the calculation since you don't have the sss tint without transmit. )
    http://www.daz3d.com/interjection-booster-shot-one

    Again, can't stress enough how I'm a hobbyist playing with our new toy - I post to spark dialogue and experiment as we all work to find the best way to render skin with iRay. Thanks all.


    Have found these massively useful - thanks. I tweaked them a little - changing the IOR and got a few tips from Lyoness with them :

    *using Fresnel instead of reflectivity
    *according to your refraction index of 1.41 the glossy spec values should be 0.028942- 0.028942- 0.028942 (it uses a math formula)
    *the Refraction Albedo value (Abbe) should be between 0.5 (european skin-lowest) and 0.6 (european skin-highest) (there's a chart that I pull my values from)
    *top coat weight and glossy weight values should add up to 1. for best results, lower the top coat weight.

    I also added some normal maps. The first image is roughly your settings with my tweaks - the second have Lyoness's suggestions.

    Thanks again :)

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    Tilted.jpg
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  • Arnold CArnold C Posts: 740
    edited December 1969

    8eos8 said:
    You can right-click on each number to edit it. (There may be other ways too, I'm still pretty new to DS)
    Also, it's useful to remember that 186 in RGB color = 0.5 in linear color.

    You can also STRG + Leftclick into a color field and then an additional window will pop up where you can enter your linear RGB color values into. Your input is rounded to three digigts only in the preview, so if you type in a value with more than three, the complete value is taken over (like 0.332455). If your input consists of more than seven digits after the "." it will be rounded, too. So a 0.3324558 will become a 0.332456.

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  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,579
    edited December 1969

    Using refraction weight on skin is blowing my mind, but holy poot, it works. Huh.

  • bohemian3bohemian3 Posts: 689
    edited December 1969

    Using refraction weight on skin is blowing my mind, but holy poot, it works. Huh.

    Yes, with light simulation we must also think like physicists as well now. refraction is a change in direction of light according to Mr. Wiki. My understanding that happens with skin - that's what gives someone a 'healthy glow.' So much fun experimenting, eh?

  • DrowElfMorwenDrowElfMorwen Posts: 459
    edited May 2015

    8eos8 said:
    The second image is what I get when I apply the Iray optimized skin.

    Where is this? I don't see an offering for an IRAY skin setting at all. Is this something we have to buy? When I search the daz store for "iray skin" nothing comes up.

    Actually, I did find this: http://www.daz3d.com/ig-iray-essentials-victoria-6-michael-6

    But does it only work on Genesis 2, or is it just saying it does? I don't see why incompatibility with other figures, like Genesis 1, would be an issue.

    Post edited by DrowElfMorwen on
  • ben98120000ben98120000 Posts: 456
    edited May 2015

    They are part of Genesis 2 Female/Male Starter Essentials available for download from your account product library or DIM. After installation, you should find them in your content library under people - genesis 2 female (or male) - materials - iray.

    There is also Default Lights and Shaders for DAZ Studio 4.8 for download and installation, after which you should have iray shaders in your content library under shader presets - iray.

    Post edited by ben98120000 on
  • DarwinsMishapDarwinsMishap Posts: 3,598
    edited December 1969

    They work for M4 as well.


    I've used my version of the shaders on him, and the hair in both of these pieces.

    test_shot_with_new_studio_iray_3.jpg
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    cropped.jpg
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  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 9,282
    edited May 2015

    SO just Ctrl Click to just apply the shader settings over the maps then?

    PS... M4 looks very scrumptious!

    Post edited by RAMWolff on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    RAMWolff said:
    PS... M4 looks very scrumptious!

    Down, boy! Bad doggie...

    No drool allowed.

  • DarwinsMishapDarwinsMishap Posts: 3,598
    edited December 1969

    lol-thank you. Yes, use the control button and ignore and the shaders go over any maps applied to whatever model you use.

    The shaders on him are bits and pieces of tips I've found here in the forums and my own experimentation so far. I just started with the base Iray shader and went from there. The picture below is how he looked with just the basic shader after applying the Poser version of his material settings and some adjustment with the displacement maps for the veins.

    Trystan_Iray_Studio_4.8_Displacement_Correction_.jpg
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