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Yes, this is the aspect of the Optitex system that I really like. :) I am still hoping it will be possible to retain this and extend functionality to allow other conformed clothing to be draped, in part because the OptiTex system doesn't allow any autofit or figure conversion or morph transfer (or even size changes).
There are problems with figure conversion and morph transfer, of course, when the result is too clingy and looses the more natural look of the original model. But in combination with projection morphs to avoid all clothing shrink-wrapping on conversion, being able to drape the converted clothes would be ideal, especially for skirts, cloaks, etc.
We would also hope to be able to drape long/wide sleeves, e.g. kimono furisode sleeves, which currently can't be rigged in the OptiTex conversion system (they have to be draped using animation only). Allowing an expanded skeleton in the OptiTex conversion process might help.
I'm optimistic that we'll see improvements in this area in DAZ Studio, and that it won't take another decade, either. We now have two different hair solutions. If there is enough market demand, someone will build the plugin to provide this functionality.
Jaderail makes a great point, not only that discussion should avoid "us vs them" but also brings to light the idea that conforming clothing has it's merits as well. I don't think anyone here can disagree that being able to have a nice looking completely clothed character in under 5 minutes as a great thing to have. Some of the older users might remember that this is a slightly under-appreciated benefit.
Jaderail makes a great point, not only that discussion should avoid "us vs them" but also brings to light the idea that conforming clothing has it's merits as well. I don't think anyone here can disagree that being able to have a nice looking completely clothed character in under 5 minutes as a great thing to have. Some of the older users might remember that this is a slightly under-appreciated benefit.
I sure do, and I came into this thing right when V4 came out. ;)
I sure do, and I came into this thing right when V4 came out. ;)
Before conforming clothing you parented the clothing to the figure and checked follow the bends of the parent. Poke through was a given and a royal pain in the tush. Only way around it was to hide as many body parts as possible (and there were always body parts you couldn't hide and gave you the worst of the poke through) and do a load of postwork.
I sure do, and I came into this thing right when V4 came out. ;)
Before conforming clothing you parented the clothing to the figure and checked follow the bends of the parent. Poke through was a given and a royal pain in the tush. Only way around it was to hide as many body parts as possible (and there were always body parts you couldn't hide and gave you the worst of the poke through) and do a load of postwork.
And I mean I sure do appreciate the new benefits, not that I in any way disagree, in case that was unclear.
Coming in a little late on this conversation, but I have to say that, as an animator, I prefer dynamics. And in spite of the Dynamic Cloth plugin's limitations, I try to make it work. The biggest problem that I have had is that all the pressure to make the clothing was put on one individual who can only work it as a hobby. I seriously looked into creating the clothing but found the cost outrageous. There is a $14,000 price tag of the software to create the clothing and Daz controls the link between the 2 programs. Optitex offered me a "lease-to-own" program...about $750 per month...which is more than my rent! Come on!!!!
Then there was the Marvelous Designer fiasco! They promised buyers a plugin to work with Daz's dynamics engine and tons of us purchased their software. Nearly three years later, they won't even respond to inquiries. A couple of people discovered a work around but now, that's not working either.
I have HIGH HOPES for the new Dynamic Cloth plugin being worked on right now. Trying to key-frame conforming clothing is really the pits!!! LOL I love Daz Studio and want to continue using it for my animations.
The Optitex system is a commercial system. It's primary function is to create real world clothing patterns. It's primary purpose is not the creation of virtual clothing models for use in 3D software.
I have a whole load of plugins and support apps for both Poser and DS that either failed to live up to their promises, the vendors went under or because of one sdk change or another, I have to keep a lower version of the software on my system to have access to them.
Anyone remember the short lived bug riddled Virtual Fashion? No? Thought not. I think it had a sales life of a couple of months.
When they made the offer of "...you buy a license now at this price and we'll make a plugin for DS in the future..." MD's designers were sincere. The same as DAZ was sincere back when they promised not only the free player and cloth control plugin but a cloth creation plugin. Something changed between then and now. What, we'll probably never know.
I agree that is not the primary function but it is one of their functions. Just like in AutoCAD you build the blueprint of buildings that are going to end up as real buildings and the program has 3D visualization built in the same thing with Optitex and clothing.
Both Optitex and Marvelous Designer have a well thought 3D cloth simulation system. When we model clothes in a 3D modeler like Hexagon and 3D Studio (in my case-this is what I use) we do a lot of things that these systems don't do. Their 3D output is optimized analog to how it is built in reality and instead of extruding faces and fused vertices that most definitely do not follow a real world clothing pattern it deals with patterns and stitching as in the real world so the end result is a model that is optimized for a dynamic cloth simulation and produces folds and deforms correctly.
If Optitex would have followed through with its creator software we would have ended up with a very complete toolset. I too bought Marvelous Designer and thought it was a shame they never delivered on its promise either.
Given that the same poster asked in the Renderosity forums "Why does Poser customers like Conforming Cloths better then Dynamic Cloths ?" I think the question was poorly phrased - he wants to know why the market in general, Poser and DS, apparently prefers conforming clothing over dynamics. That's a question that has been addressed, but the OptiTex vs. Cloth room stuff is perhaps missing the point.
Some times "why does..." is sort of a code phrase for "I wish everyone else agreed with me that..." and that might have been the case here.
But several people seem to have gotten something out of the discussion about how to use Optitex, too. :) Nobody's throwing rotten fruit, so it's all good. :lol:
For new users, conformers are much easier to manage out of the box. It is easier to fit to/conform an item to the figure than go through all the various steps required by whichever app they are using to set up a dynamic cloth simulation.
Poser has had the cloth room for more than a decade. I know users who have owned multiple versions of Poser during that time and have no idea how to use the cloth room. They just don't have the inclination to spend the time it would take to learn how to use it.
For experienced users, there can be as many different reasons why they do or don't use dynamics as there are users. I don't think there is one simple or easy answer to the question.
I actually think the reasons Conforming clothing sells better than Dynamics have been addressed pretty well:
1. Availability (certainly with DS)
2. Detail. Conforming clothing's level of detail is on a completely different level than their dynamic counterparts, for whatever the reason.
3. Speed / Ease of use.
4. Creator style. I don't think this was brought up, but I'm bringing it up now. There are only a few Dynamics creators (for DS especially) and we are subject to their personal style and opinion of what to make. Conforming clothing has a much larger artist-base so there are many different styles.
5. Draping times are not negligible on slower systems. I have a pretty beefy machine and with a few dynamics a drape can take a minute or two, and it usually takes a few times to get it right.
I was looking for Haseltine's reply in Renderosity forums and found a thread that states that is possible to create dynamic clothes with a notepad. It seems to be a very complex process, at least for me.
The thread title is "PoC : You can create your own Dynamic Clothes".
Is it really possible ?
Just read the forum ToS and I don't see any issue with posting non-product links from RO so:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2879971
There's the Proof of Concept thread. Sounds extremely interesting, and the author suggests that it would be simple for those handy in DSON to makea script. Any takers? lol
In what? In Poser you need an OBJ file for the mesh, so you could in principle make it with a text editor. In DS, not as far as I am aware.
Wow. :bug:
I hope this doesn't turn out to violate a license agreement-- it would be very cool if this could be done generally.
After read the article 10 times, this is what I understood :
He's loading a conformable cloth, saving as scene subset and editing the resulting duf file with a text editor. He's adding a bunch of lines on several places.
Later he states that you can load an obj file, use the "Convert Prop to Figure" command (?), save again and repeat the procedure described there.
The process has limitations, but the 2 pics with a boy using the clothes that he posted are nice !
From what I understand it looks like he looked at the file generated by a dynamic cloth object and tried to emulate it by forcing it to have the "dynamic_cloth_modifier." I assume that allows it to be recognized by the dynamic cloth plugin. After that it looks like he does the same thing to force it to have panel areas.
I don't know much at all about how it works, but it looks like it worked. I'm going to spend a while tonight trying to convert something, myself.
I just ask a question to see what there was to learn.
I was surprised to learn that DAZ had a dynamic hybrid.
Don't know that I've herd of that before.
Was not aware of Optitex.
So I learned some new stuff.
I try to keep up with all the CGI App's.
TrueSpace educated me as for what I need ,I don't try to get a app to get what I need.
I just go find a app that all ready has it.
C4D,Max,Maya,Blender all have Dynamics.
If DAZ gets Dynamics cool ,if not that's cool to.
Don't think mmogul heard of staying in the box ;)
Could mmogul sell his dynamic cloths ?
Even if he could get his work-around to a satisfactory quality (he says it's pretty clunky atm) he wouldn't be able to sell it because it's ostensibly forcing another artist's clothes to act dynamic; he's not actually creating anything.
Also, but sharing his PoC and mentioning that others could make a script, it sounds like there is interest there anyway. Also, others could "simply" make their own script.
Still not seeing where the DS dynamics entered into things. The product used by the OP was a conformer by OOT for the G2M. The convert to prop command is part of the CCT's. When you use that command, you essentially generate a rig (read conformer) for the prop.
It feels more like the OP generated a subset for a conformer for the G2M. He pointed the subset at his own mesh and then used the CCT's to convert them from props to figures. He then applied them to the G2M figure. I'm really not seeing anything dynamic about them at all.
The method most definitely works, but ... I never thought I'd say that ... quite a few dresses of G2F, even of the simpler form, are actually too complex (or perhaps just not designed for this) to give great results ;) It might work well on MD2 clothing in general and perhaps Poser dynamics. Nevertheless a bit surprised that it is actually that trivial - will definitely have a play around.
Just to show that it works. In this case it is the Rebellion skirt by OOT. It loses its form certainly and also has some other drawbacks here, but should probably work better with clothes that are designed for this - like from MD2.
Even if he could get his work-around to a satisfactory quality (he says it's pretty clunky atm) he wouldn't be able to sell it because it's ostensibly forcing another artist's clothes to act dynamic; he's not actually creating anything.
Also, but sharing his PoC and mentioning that others could make a script, it sounds like there is interest there anyway. Also, others could "simply" make their own script.
The first example shown is an existing model, but the other two examples are shorts made in Blender and a shirt from MD2. That's what really got my attention-- if there's a way to turn MD2 meshes into DAZ dynamics, this is going to be very big. As long as it doesn't violate a licensing agreement with OptiTex or something like that... but while DAZ might not be able to sell clothes rigged this way, or even a conversion utility to rig clothes this way, I don't think they can (or would be required to) stop someone else from doing so.
Renpatsu, did you have to drape from T-pose and animate, or were you able to pose the figure with the clothing conformed, and then drape?
Even just being able to resize or morph clothes, export as obj, and import before draping would be a huge leap forward.
If Optitex were to view this as infringement, they could file a suit against the OP or anyone else who tries to sell items. AFAIK, all parts of the Optitex system are proprietary. I'm sure there are agreements in place with DAZ protecting their rights to the code and any parts of it DAZ was given access to.
Years ago, a company filed suit against Phil Cooke claiming that his Clothing Designer plug ins for Poser inringed on either their trademark or copyright. They filed not only in the US but in a number of other countries. The US courts dismissed the suit but a long time Phil could only sell his plug ins to US buyers while the suits worked their way through various foreign courts. This company even went so far as to imply that they held the rights to the creation and addition of morphs to clothing models. In the end, the suits were either dismissed or the company failed to carry through on them but it was interesting to watch as it played out.
That's my concern. I'd sure love to do it, but it looks like they did it by copying code out of an Optitex item's library .duf.
I sincerely doubt Phil thought it was interesting.
& if a big corporations throws endless amount of $$$ at lawyers n courts.
What justice would there be for a Solo Artist on a budget.
I know there's a lot of abbreviations TOC,EULA etc etc.
That explains what rights venders have but it's wrote in legal terms.
I always thought it would be a lot of fun to make DAZ Poser content.
but I don't know about all that legal stuff.
I have wondered about this thou.
For example lets say the vender Clyde sold a Mech at the CGIPluto Store.
Could the CGIPluto Store force Clyde to sell his Mech copyrights to the CGIPluto Store ?
So then the CGIPluto Store would own the copyrights to the Mech .
& can just anyone out of the blue suit you ?
On the other hand, if it turned out that the process could be made to work reliably, they'd be far better off paying the guy for figuring it out and popping out a commercial product based on it uber-quick themselves. 'Cause in this digital age, once something's discovered it can't be buried again, so you might as well try to make some money from it before someone takes it to the next stage without you.
I sincerely doubt Phil thought it was interesting.
& if a big corporations throws endless amount of $$$ at lawyers n courts.
What justice would there be for a Solo Artist on a budget.
I know there's a lot of abbreviations TOC,EULA etc etc.
That explains what rights venders have but it's wrote in legal terms.
I always thought it would be a lot of fun to make DAZ Poser content.
but I don't know about all that legal stuff.
I have wondered about this thou.
For example lets say the vender Clyde sold a Mech at the CGIPluto Store.
Could the CGIPluto Store force Clyde to sell his Mech copyrights to the CGIPluto Store ?
So then the CGIPluto Store would own the copyrights to the Mech .
& can just anyone out of the blue suit you ?
The company was not large and their efforts were unsuccessful. I was not making light of what happened. I was appalled that a company could just go around filing lawsuits and make claims to things that were in use in both Poser and in DS before the company was even founded.
As to you question about the copyright. The answer is no. A brokerage like DAZ or RPublishing can offer to purchase the product and the rights to it but they cannot force a vendor to sell it to them. On the other hand, a brokerage can commission a vendor to produce a certain product with the understanding that the product would be produced for a specified amount of money and in return the vendor would relinquish all copyrights to product to the broker. This last would likely be a legal contract.
As for can anyone file a lawsuit against another person? Are you asking about the US or some other country? Lawsuits are covered under civil law rather than criminal. Biggest thing to remember about law in the US, there is no one set statute for the whole country. Laws not only from state to state but from county to county within a state and sometimes from town to town.
Is there a particular type of lawsuit you are asking about? A small claim's court suit to recover a monetary judgement is different from a million dollar personal injury lawsuit.
The reason that users can not use all DAZ 3D content in games even if they buy a Gamers license, which only covers DAZ Originals, is because the creator owns the rights to the item. If the Creator sales the item to DAZ 3D it then becomes a DO and DAZ 3D owns the usage rights. All creators that sell at DAZ 3D agree to the usage of their products in Sold renders and Animations but still own the rights to the item for any other use.