Transferring Morphs from Genesis to G2M/G2F and from G2M/G2F to Genesis (Now with Clones!)

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  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited November 2013

    Make your own simple G2M clone for Genesis.
    This is, basically, slightly updated version of G2F clone for Genesis tutorial.

    You'd need: G2M Essentials and Genesis Essentials (come free with DS 4 Pro) and DS 4 Pro (I use version 4.6.1.33), and probably a good plain text editor (standard Notepad is not recommended, I use text editor called Bred3 although there are many others).

    1. Start DS with clean scene. Load and select Genesis. In Parameters tab set Resolution level to Base and Subdivision level down to zero.
    Export Genesis obj via File -> Export (Wavefront Obj). I called mine Genesis Base LR.obj and had everything in export option unchecked except Ignore Invisible nodes.
    The scale is up to you but it should be consistent in all export and import steps. I use Hexagon (1 unit = 1 cm) 100% scale.

    2. Clean the scene and load G2M. Make sure it is in zero pose and shape.
    Make sure that Show Hidden Properties in Parameters tab is checked. I've also unchecked Consolidate Properties just in case.
    Go to Hidden/Clones and dial Genesis clone 100%

    3. Import Genesis Base LR.obj
    If you did everything properly, G2M and Genesis shapes should now overlap.

    4. Open Transfer Utility
    Set Source as Genesis 2 Male and Item Shape as Current
    Set Target as Genesis Base LR.obj and leave Item Shape as Default.
    I also used Near option on maximum slider.
    Projection template is None
    Press 'Show Options'
    Check Reverse Source Shape from Target.
    To speed things up I've unchecked Morph Target entirely, leaving everything else as checked.
    Make sure that 'Fit to Source Figure' is checked and 'Add Smoothing Modifier' is unchecked.
    I don't have CMS/Smart Content so I can't give advice about Content Type as this area is gray to me.
    Press 'Accept'.

    The transfer utility should now fit Genesis Base LR obj to G2M figure.

    5. Select G2M, go to Hidden/Clones and dial Genesis clone back to 0%.
    G2M now should look like default shape and fitted Genesis Base LR should look the same.
    Make G2M figure entirely invisible.
    Your Genesis Base LR figure should have Base Resolution and zero subdivision by default but check them just in case.

    Export Genesis Base LR as another obj. I've called it Genesis G2M Clone.obj

    6. Clean the scene entirely and load your main Genesis figure. Make sure it is in zero shape and pose.
    Open Morph Loader Pro.
    Chose Morph Files, -> Genesis G2M Clone.obj
    Press Accept.

    By default Morph Loader Pro will put it into Morphs/Morph Loader section as you can see it in Parameters tab. Go there, find Genesis G2M clone morph and click on small gear at the rightmost end of the slider. Morph option pane should pop up.

    Put name something like CloneG2M, put label something like Genesis2Male Clone, chose path as Hidden/Clones.
    My Type section is grayed out and unchangeable but maybe this is because I have no CMS/Smart Content. If you can change Modifier/Shape to Modifier/Clone in this section, do it now and skip the step 8. If no, leave it as Modifier/Shape.
    Set morph as Hidden and Locked.

    7. With Genesis selected Go to File -> Save As -> Support Assets -> Morph Asset(s).
    Find your new morph in Genesis/Hidden/Clones.
    Set Vendor name and Product name whatever you want. Leave Compress Files unchecked and save.

    8. (take is step only if you weren't able to change Modifier/Shape to Modifier/Clone in step 6).
    Open data folder of your content library. Go to data/DAZ3D/Genesis/Base/Morphs
    Your new clone will most probably be in a folder named as Vendor Name/Product Name from step 7.
    Find this file and open this file in plain text editor.
    Change Line 20 from
    "type" : "Modifier/Shape",
    to
    "type" : "Modifier/Clone",
    (mind commas!)
    Make sure that line 40 reads as
    "group" : "/Hidden/Clones",

    Save the file under same name.

    9. Now you should be able to reverse fit G2M clothes to Genesis with autofit. As usual with autofit, the results may vary and custom bones such as skirt bones, as well as long sleeves, long skirts, high collars, etc, might not autofit well.

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited November 2013

    How to make G2M morph for Genesis.

    Again, it is mostly the update on what was already done before.

    If you already made G2M clone for Genesis, the process is already half done.
    I'm pretty sure it can be done in a different way through duplication of properties, but export-import works as well.

    1. Load Genesis into clean scene.

    Find Genesis G2M Clone.obj you used to make a G2M clone. We will use it again.

    2. Load Genesis G2M Clone.obj with Morph Loader Pro.
    The scale of import should be consistent with the scale of previous export
    Options should be visible. In Options, put Name Genesis 2 Male, and put Property Group (with right-click) something like Actor/Male/Real World or anywhere you wish to see your G2M morph.
    All other default options should be left as they are.

    3. Go to Actor/Male/Real World and find there your Genesis 2 Male morph.
    Dial it 100%.

    We will now make bone adjustment and ERC freeze for this morph to work properly.
    To make bones visible and see the changes, you can either select Joint Editor, or go to Parameters tab, Genesis/Display/Show Bones/Bone Edge Opacity

    4. With Genesis 2 Male morph dialed to 100%, go to Edit -> Figure -> Rigging -> Adjust Rigging to Shape
    Alternatively, you can right click Scene tab label, Edit -> Rigging -> Adjust Rigging to Shape
    In the pop up, leave everything checked and make sure that all three options (Adjust Center Points, Adjust End Points and Adjust Orientation) are checked. Sometimes things work better if Adjust Orientation is unchecked, so for other morphs you might want to try this option too.

    If you are able to see bones, you should see now that bones have adjusted themselves to Genesis 2 Male morph

    5. To make sure that the rig is changing along with morphs, we will do ERC Freeze.

    With morph still dialed 100% and rig adjusted, open Property Hierarchy tab, select Genesis in it, right click and select ERC Freeze (it should be the only non-grayed line). ERC Freeze can be found in some other places of UI, but I think this one is easiest to find.

    In Figure and Node select Genesis.
    In Property browse down until you find your Genesis 2 Male morph (not a clone! morph!)
    Make sure that 'Restore Figure Rigging' is unchecked. Everything else can be left checked as it is although you might want to uncheck BoneFill Opacity and Bone Edge Opacity for clearness sake.
    Click 'Accept'

    Go to Actor/Male/Real World and test your morph. The adjusted rigging should now follow the morph.

    6. Zero Genesis and go Save As -> Support Assets -> Morph Asset(s) to save your Genesis 2 Male morph.

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • TheKDTheKD Posts: 2,593
    edited December 1969

    Thanks, a refresher course was needed lol. Been a while since I did it the first time around :D

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited November 2013

    You're welcome :) I'm hope to make one more tutorial today.

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • WilmapWilmap Posts: 2,915
    edited December 1969

    Thanks for the tutorial. Very easy to follow. Success first time I tried.:-)

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    wilmap said:
    Thanks for the tutorial. Very easy to follow. Success first time I tried.:-)

    I'm very glad to hear this, Wilmap! :D
  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited November 2013

    Make your own simple V4 clone for G2M

    I suspect we all miss the golden opportunity to put G2M into some fancy Victoria 4 clothes ^_^
    So here is a small tutorial about how to make V4 clone for G2M.
    Again, I'm pretty sure there is some faster way but I tend to do things with export and import when possible.

    The method in this tutorial is very very similar to method for G2M clone for Genesis and other older tutorials in this thread, with some additional steps.

    You will need Genesis and G2M Essentials (free with DS 4 Pro), DS 4 Pro (I use 4.6.1.33) and maybe a good plain text editor (standard Notepad is not recommended, I use text editor called Bred3 although there are many others).

    If you want to make simple Generation 3 clones for G2M in the same way, you will need their Iconic Shapes.

    1. Open DAZ Studio, start a new clean scene. Make sure that Show Hidden Properties is checked in Parameter tab options.

    Load G2M, make sure it is zeroed, and set Resolution level to Base and Subdivision level to zero.

    Go to Hidden/Clones and dial Genesis clone to 100%. G2M should now look like Genesis.

    Export G2M obj via File -> Export (Wavefront Obj). I called mine G2M Genesis LR.obj and had everything in export option unchecked except Ignore Invisible nodes.
    The scale is up to you but it should be consistent in all export and import steps. I use Hexagon (1 unit = 1 cm) 100% scale.

    2. Clean the scene and load Genesis figure. Again, set Resolution level to Base and Subdivision level to zero.
    Go to Hidden/Clones, find Victoria 4 clone and dial it to 100%. If it doesn't dial, use the gear icon on the end of the slider and uncheck "Use Limits" in morph/clone parameters.
    Export this file as obj via File -> Export (Wavefront Obj). I called mine Genesis V4 Clone LR.obj and had everything in export option unchecked except Ignore Invisible nodes. Again, the scale is up to you but it should be consistent in all export and import steps.

    3. Zero Genesis and use Morph Loader Pro to load Genesis V4 Clone LR.obj that we just back into Genesis created as Victoria 4 morph. It doesn't matter how it is called or where it is put as long as you know where it is and how it is called, because this morph won't be saved into final Genesis or G2M, it is just temporary morph.
    Reverse deformation should be unchecked. Path and category isn't important, I just left everything as it was by default. Lets say I named that morph V4 Temp Clone and put it into Actor/Morphs.

    We do this step because otherwise transfer utility in step 5 won't see the actual Victoria 4 clone. And we need Victoria 4 (not morph, but clone) because the original Victoria 4 legs are positioned differently from Genesis or G2M legs and this positioning is very important to clone.

    Make sure that this new morph is working. Dialed shape of this V4 Temp Clone morph should show Victoria 4 shape with feet like original Victoria 4 (Gen 4 figure) had in zero pose, with toes down.

    Zero Genesis.

    4. Load your G2M Genesis LR.obj from step 1 into scene. If everything done correctly two shapes should now overlap.

    5. Open Transfer Utility.
    As Source select Genesis, Item Shape - Default. As Target select G2M Genesis LR.obj, Shape Default.

    I unchecked all options in Transfer Utility except Weight Maps to speed up the process. You might want to use Near method if you think it gives better results.
    Projection Template is None.
    Fit to Source Figure should be checked, Add Smoothing Modifier should be unchecked.

    As a result of the transfer you should have G2M mesh fitted to original Genesis figure as a very, very tight bodysuit.

    6. Find your V4 Temp Clone morph and dial it to 100%. G2M mesh, still fitted to Genesis, should follow her shape quite precisely.
    Turn Genesis entirely invisible.
    Your G2M should be at Base Resolution, zero Subdivision by default but check it just in case.

    Export G2M morphed as V4 as obj. I called it G2M V4 Clone LR.obj

    Clean the scene entirely.

    7. Load G2M figure again. Open Morph Loader Pro and load G2M V4 Clone LR.obj we just created.
    In options of Morph Loader Pro name it CloneVictoria4, Property Group should be Hidden/Clones (you select it with right-click).
    Make sure that Reverse Deformation is unchecked.
    Press 'Accept'

    8. In G2M go to Hidden/Clones, find CloneVictoria4 and dial it to make sure it works.
    Zero G2M.

    Click small gear at the end of the slider for CloneVictoria4, - it should open morph properties.
    Name should be CloneVictoria4
    Label should be G2M Clone or whatever name is comfortable for you to use.
    Path should be Hidden/Clones
    If you can change the Type to Modifier/Clone, do it now and skip step 10. I don't have CMS and this line for me is grayed out.
    Set the clone to Hidden, Locked, Use Limits.

    9. With G2M selected and zeroed Go to File -> Save As -> Support Assets -> Morph Asset(s).
    Find your new clone in Genesis 2 Male/Hidden/Clones.
    Set Vendor name and Product name whatever you want. Leave Compress Files unchecked and save.

    10. (take is step only if you weren’t able to change Modifier/Shape to Modifier/Clone in step 8).
    Go to data/DAZ3D/Genesis 2/Male/Morphs in your content library.
    Your new CloneVictoria4 will most probably be in a folder named as Vendor Name/Product Name from step 9.

    Find this file and open this file in your plain text editor.
    Change Line 20 from
    “type” : “Modifier/Shape”,
    to
    “type” : “Modifier/Clone”,
    (mind commas!)
    Make sure that line a bit below, number about 38 or 40 (depending from how you set clone Hidden/Locked/Use Limits) parameters reads as
    “group” : “/Hidden/Clones”,

    Save the file under the same name.

    11. Now you should be able to fit Victoria 4 clothes to G2M with autofit. As usual with autofit, the results may vary and custom bones such as skirt bones, as well as long sleeves, long skirts, high collars, etc, might not autofit well; some minor pockthrough also possible.

    Pictured: G2M wearing V4 Archer top, Anjiru bottoms, and Classic Fantasy jewelled shins.

    G2M_LivingaHighLife.jpg
    696 x 928 - 127K
    Post edited by Kattey on
  • Mari-AnneMari-Anne Posts: 363
    edited December 1969

    I apologize in advance if this has already been addressed. I am on page 9 of this thread working my way toward the end, but I thought I'd post this question in hopes of having an answer by the time I reach the end.

    So far, I have only tried Ben's method and it seems to work OK (with some minor adjustments which I'm sure are can be fixed once I digest the tutorial(s) in full. However, the BIG problem is that when I run the Transfer Utility with both Genesis and Genesis 2 F on the screen, the new morphs show up for G2F. However, if I close D|S and open it up again, and load/select G2F, the morphs are no longer there. Is this something that popped up after we went to Daz Studio Pro 4.6.1.33 or is it something I am doing wrong?

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited November 2013

    After you transferred the morphs, you usually need to save them. I don't recall Ben's method all that well, but it is usually either Save As -> Support Assets -> Morph Asset(s) (and select all new morphs you got from Transfer Utility), or Save As -> Support Assets -> Figure/Prop Asset (and maybe a lot of manual text editing after that) or Save As -> Support Assets -> Save Modified Assets, I'm not sure which one would work in this case and how.

    Transfer Utility only transfers morphs in this case - if they aren't saved into the figure in some way they won't stay after DS is closed.

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • Mari-AnneMari-Anne Posts: 363
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:
    After you transferred the morphs, you usually need to save them. I don't recall Ben's method all that well, but it is usually either Save As -> Support Assets -> Morph Asset(s) (and select all new morphs you got from Transfer Utility), or Save As -> Support Assets -> Figure/Prop Asset (and maybe a lot of manual text editing after that) or Save As -> Support Assets -> Save Modified Assets, I'm not sure which one would work in this case and how.

    Transfer Utility only transfers morphs in this case - if they aren't saved into the figure in some way they won't stay after DS is closed.

    I see - that makes sense. Thank you, Kattey!

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    No problems :) I'd try Save as Morph Assets first (checking all newly transferred morphs) to see if this works this way.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,512
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:
    No problems :) I'd try Save as Morph Assets first (checking all newly transferred morphs) to see if this works this way.

    This is usually the best method.

  • murgatroyd314murgatroyd314 Posts: 1,184
    edited December 1969

    How To Transfer Morphs From G2F To G2M The Very Easy Way

    You don't even need to open Studio.

    Copy the morph file from its subfolder of /data/DAZ 3D/Genesis 2/Female/Morphs/ to a corresponding subfolder of /data/DAZ 3D/Genesis 2/Male/Morphs/.
    Open it in a text editor of your choice.
    *If it's gibberish, add .zip to the end of the filename, and unzip it.
    Find Female.
    Replace all with Male.
    Save.

    The same process will work, mutatis mutandis, to transfer from G2M to G2F.

    Theory and my limited testing say that this has the exact same result as the more complicated method involving Morph Loader and clones.

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited November 2013

    How To Transfer Morphs From G2F To G2M The Very Easy Way

    You don't even need to open Studio.

    Copy the morph file from its subfolder of /data/DAZ 3D/Genesis 2/Female/Morphs/ to a corresponding subfolder of /data/DAZ 3D/Genesis 2/Male/Morphs/.
    Open it in a text editor of your choice.
    *If it's gibberish, add .zip to the end of the filename, and unzip it.
    Find Female.
    Replace all with Male.
    Save.

    The same process will work, mutatis mutandis, to transfer from G2M to G2F.

    Theory and my limited testing say that this has the exact same result as the more complicated method involving Morph Loader and clones.


    Wonderful, I knew a faster way was somewhere near! Thank you very much!
    And extra thank you for no-hassle decompression of compressed morphs!

    Also, as I'm not thrilled to manually edit a lot of files, I'm using Ecobyte's Replace Text tool which work well for me except I had to terminate it manually by some reason.

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    I've added links to all new tutorials to the first post in the thread.

  • DavidGBDavidGB Posts: 565
    edited December 1969

    How To Transfer Morphs From G2F To G2M The Very Easy Way

    You don't even need to open Studio.

    Copy the morph file from its subfolder of /data/DAZ 3D/Genesis 2/Female/Morphs/ to a corresponding subfolder of /data/DAZ 3D/Genesis 2/Male/Morphs/.
    Open it in a text editor of your choice.
    *If it's gibberish, add .zip to the end of the filename, and unzip it.
    Find Female.
    Replace all with Male.
    Save.

    The same process will work, mutatis mutandis, to transfer from G2M to G2F.

    Theory and my limited testing say that this has the exact same result as the more complicated method involving Morph Loader and clones.

    This would imply that from a mesh point of view G2F and G2M are the same mesh, the one being a straightforward morph of the other. And UV sets for either should work on both, too. Like with V4 and M4. But unlike V4 and M4 in earlier DS, as the rigging here can be tied to morphs ... G2M and G2F could be just simply folded back together to make a single Genesis 2 figure that will do male and female like Genesis 1. Just a matter of picking whether to use Base G2F shape or Base G2M shape as the base G2 shape.

    Which then makes me wonder - are the same name Body and Head morphs for G2M actually exactly the same as their counterparts for G2F? If the G2F and G2M Body and Head morph packs are actually - apart from the few gender specific morphs - exactly the same products ...

  • murgatroyd314murgatroyd314 Posts: 1,184
    edited December 1969

    From a mesh point of view, they're topologically identical. From a weight mapping point of view, they're not quite the same. I took G2M and G2F, applied their Genesis clone shapes, and put them in the same pose, and I think I could see some subtle differences in the bends.

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited November 2013

    DavidGB said:
    Which then makes me wonder - are the same name Body and Head morphs for G2M actually exactly the same as their counterparts for G2F? If the G2F and G2M Body and Head morph packs are actually - apart from the few gender specific morphs - exactly the same products ...

    I'm testing them right at this moment. Not all of them are the same, that is for sure. Heavy male morph is somewhat different from Heavy female morph, with differently shaped, more manly pectorals. There are a couple of morphs absent (Voluptuous) and some new are added (Portly, Adam Apple, genital bulges). But Elf Ears Long seems to be the same, Thin morph and Finesse/Bodybuilder details seems to be very similar, and less gender specific morphs, such as jaw and nose morphs seems to be the same or very similar.
    I can't speak any precise numbers yet but by very early approximation it looks like at least half of morphs is the same or very-very close.
    Post edited by Kattey on
  • DavidGBDavidGB Posts: 565
    edited December 1969

    From a mesh point of view, they're topologically identical. From a weight mapping point of view, they're not quite the same. I took G2M and G2F, applied their Genesis clone shapes, and put them in the same pose, and I think I could see some subtle differences in the bends.

    The weight maps are part of the rigging - which can be tied to the morphs, as with the special Genesis shapes that had their own specific weight-maps tied to them.

  • DavidGBDavidGB Posts: 565
    edited November 2013

    Kattey said:
    DavidGB said:
    Which then makes me wonder - are the same name Body and Head morphs for G2M actually exactly the same as their counterparts for G2F? If the G2F and G2M Body and Head morph packs are actually - apart from the few gender specific morphs - exactly the same products ...

    I'm testing them right at this moment. Not all of them are the same, that is for sure. Heavy male morph is somewhat different from Heavy female morph, with differently shaped, more manly pectorals. There are a couple of morphs absent (Voluptuous) and some new are added (Portly, Adam Apple, genital bulges). But Elf Ears Long seems to be the same, Thin morph and Finesse/Bodybuilder details seems to be very similar, and less gender specific morphs, such as jaw and nose morphs seems to be the same or very similar.
    I can't speak any numbers yet but by very early approximation it looks like at least half of morphs is the same or very very close.

    Well, if any are the same, then people who have already paid for the G2F sets should get a discount for the G2M set - proportional to the number of morphs that are the same. Or they should sell a set with just the change ones at a reduced price. It's quick enough to transfer morphs from one to the other - especially with a text editor that will load a hundred or whatever morph .dsf files simultaneously and do a global search and replace on all loaded documents and a 'save all', like Textpad will (loaded all 182 of DieTrying's 182 morphs, converted to Genesis by SY, simultaneously, did a global search and replace all and save all in well under a minute).

    Post edited by DavidGB on
  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    I'm not completely sure if they are entirely the same or just very very close. Tomorrow I want to post two Bodybuilder morphs and ask people if male variation has some specific man-only sculpt I'm not noticing - too sleepy today to do this -_-

  • DavidGBDavidGB Posts: 565
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:
    I'm not completely sure if they are entirely the same or just very very close. Tomorrow I want to post two Bodybuilder morphs and ask people if male variation has some specific man-only sculpt I'm not noticing - too sleepy today to do this -_-

    Easiest way to check if they are identical, I would think, would be to load them both into a text editor with a compare files function. If they're the same, it'll only show the lines with the different path names, but the deltas will be the same in each (or just compare the delta lists by eye).

    That's what I'd do ... except I'm trying to decide what, if any, G2M stuff to buy while on the max sale and this voucher is still valid (midnight DAZ time). If most of the morphs in the morphs bundle are the same as the G2F ones I already have ... if I buy them and find that, I will feel severely ripped off. Which I can't afford, on disability benefits.

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited November 2013

    Easiest way to check if they are identical, I would think, would be to load them both into a text editor with a compare files function.
    Is there a text editor that allows parallel comparison?

    Uniforms seems to be a nice product.

    if I buy them and find that, I will feel severely ripped off.


    Can't you buy both and return morphs if turns to be that they disappoint you?

    P.S. PHMFaceYoung from G2F Head Morphs and PHMFaceYoung from G2M Head morphs appear to be the same file, just tied to a different mesh (G2F and G2M respectively). I randomly compared some delta segments from both files (making sure I'm comparing two different products) and they all have same numbers. The same goes to PHMChinCreaseSmooth from both packages and also some other morphs as well. So yes, you might be on something here.
    With the other hand, (randomly selected morph) PHMLipLowerDepth has different numbers in both variations.

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • DavidGBDavidGB Posts: 565
    edited December 1969

    (Parenthetically - purely on Bodybuilder morphs .... One every figure where there's a male version and a female version (i.e. every one from V2 onwards up to and INCUDING Gia6, with Genesis 1 the only exception) DAZ have made the same mistake on every Bodybuilder/Muscular morph for the female figures. I presume the morphers at DAZ cannot actually bring themselves to actually look at women bodybuilders. They ALWAYS get the arms out of proportion with the legs - definition on the arms, yes, fine, they model that; but spindly arms, even if defined, with nothing like enough muscle mass compared with the legs. Yes, a woman at start of training starts with proportionally less muscle mass in her arms as compared with her legs than a man does: an average woman has about two thirds of the leg strength of a man of the same size (not of an average man, who is bigger and therefore even stronger), but less than half the arm strength of the same man. BUT ... an important point in bodybuilding is PROPORTION: they are MARKED on all the body parts being proportional, marked down for areas out of proportion, and would be laughed off the stage with the arm/leg proportions DAZ give their female bodybuilder morphs. And if the women are training for strength for something that requires all body parts - like heptathlon, or in, say, the army in a trade that needs them to work alongside infantry, or as part of an artillery gun crew - then again they need to get the same proportionality between arms and legs that the men do. So - to start with, they have to work much harder to build up their arms than the men do. But by the time applying a Bodybuilder morph is applicable they will have built the arms up. DAZ's overall female Bodybuilder/Muscular morphs really annoy me.)

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    DavidGB said:
    (Parenthetically - purely on Bodybuilder morphs .... One every figure where there's a male version and a female version (i.e. every one from V2 onwards up to and INCUDING Gia6, with Genesis 1 the only exception) DAZ have made the same mistake on every Bodybuilder/Muscular morph for the female figures. I presume the morphers at DAZ cannot actually bring themselves to actually look at women bodybuilders. They ALWAYS get the arms out of proportion with the legs - definition on the arms, yes, fine, they model that; but spindly arms, even if defined, with nothing like enough muscle mass compared with the legs. Yes, a woman at start of training starts with proportionally less muscle mass in her arms as compared with her legs than a man does: an average woman has about two thirds of the leg strength of a man of the same size (not of an average man, who is bigger and therefore even stronger), but less than half the arm strength of the same man. BUT ... an important point in bodybuilding is PROPORTION: they are MARKED on all the body parts being proportional, marked down for areas out of proportion, and would be laughed off the stage with the arm/leg proportions DAZ give their female bodybuilder morphs. And if the women are training for strength for something that requires all body parts - like heptathlon, or in, say, the army in a trade that needs them to work alongside infantry, or as part of an artillery gun crew - then again they need to get the same proportionality between arms and legs that the men do. So - to start with, they have to work much harder to build up their arms than the men do. But by the time applying a Bodybuilder morph is applicable they will have built the arms up. DAZ's overall female Bodybuilder/Muscular morphs really annoy me.)

    I guess this is aesthetic choice more than anything. But do you mean that female Bodybuilder morph has arms too thin? How do you find what is a proper proportion?
  • DavidGBDavidGB Posts: 565
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:
    Easiest way to check if they are identical, I would think, would be to load them both into a text editor with a compare files function.
    Is there a text editor that allows parallel comparison?

    Textpad, which I use, does (as well as allowing you to load as many documents into it simultaneously as you have memory for, and do things like search-and-replace-all on all of them simultaneously) does. You can have multiple text files (doesn't have to be .txt - it opens .dsf etc fine) open in tabs, split the window to see one above the other or side-by-side and scroll each to compare by eye (or drag-and-drop copy or move selected text from one pane to the other; and there's a 'compare' tool that then pops open another pane showing the differences between the two (just the differences, the paired different versions) or a message that they are identical. The 'match bracket' function is handy too, jumping to the matching close or open bracket to the open or close bracket you have selected. Will do simple search-and-replaces, or complex ones using Regular Expression syntax.

    It is a pay one, not free; but didn't cost much when I bought it back in ... 2002? And all updates since have been free. I've acquired free and bought Poser file editors over the years, but actually always end up going back to looking and fiddling in Poser files and DUF format files in Textpad ... I find it so much more flexible and functional.

    if I buy them and find that, I will feel severely ripped off.


    Can't you buy both and return morphs if turns to be that they disappoint you?

    I still lose money with the bank transaction charges, it being in foreign money and all. (I'm a Brit.) And I'm so angry with DAZ at the moment I'm very close to deciding they're getting no more of my money anyway. So I'm not sure credit in the store will be used ....

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited November 2013

    DavidGB said:
    I still lose money with the bank transaction charges, it being in foreign money and all. (I'm a Brit.) And I'm so angry with DAZ at the moment I'm very close to deciding they're getting no more of my money anyway. So I'm not sure credit in the store will be used ....

    In this case I'd say don't buy G2M morphs if you feel that angry. If I may offer a bit of personal observation, if I'm seriously unhappy with something (like my weight, for example), buying related stuff (tasty but fatty sausages) doesn't make me any more happy at the end and what is a purpose of bought stuff if you can't happily make renders with it? At least I'd try to relax a bit before the purchase or go in some different direction with my purchase (buy some no sugar apple juice which I also like a lot instead of fatty sausages)

    Technically speaking. I'm noticing one-to-one same numbers in at least five G2M morphs comparatively to G2F morphs from seven I've checked. Although I'm completely sure not all morphs are just directly moved from over G2F and there was a work done with some morphs looking as quite drastically changed, and I can't really tell if there was only a couple such moved morphs (from more than 200+) and I just randomly picked up them all at once or there is more substantial amount of them - if you have Genesis and G2F morphs, you probably isn't losing anything with an exception of couple of morphs here and there. If you tight on money just wait, maybe it will be some safer sale in a future.

    Store credit has no expiration date, hasn't it? This is only voucher that you are losing. But usually in a future there is some other voucher, for that or for this. I'm tight on money as well and not getting any promotion emails, so I probably lost like ten of those already.

    But I'm not sure if I can check all of the morphs in both G2M and G2F packages and give you a proper ratio/percentage of 'moved' vs 'made especially or adjusted for G2M". Again, it could have been only my luck that I picked up morphs which have same deltas and the rest is adjusted or original.

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • araneldonaraneldon Posts: 711
    edited December 1969

    Has anyone tried to use the G2F HD morphs on G2M?

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    araneldon said:
    Has anyone tried to use the G2F HD morphs on G2M?

    I don't have them, sorry -_-
  • DavidGBDavidGB Posts: 565
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:
    I guess this is aesthetic choice more than anything. But do you mean that female Bodybuilder morph has arms too thin? How do you find what is a proper proportion?

    Yes. And the Gia6 morph is even worse, The only women with that proportion would be those who absolutely only work their legs, and have defined arms only because they have a low bodyfat proportion - distance runners, maybe.

    Comparing unmorphed male and female, the female should have arms thinner in proportion to the male than her legs are. But morphed as a Bodybuilder - or a woman athlete or soldier or anyone who had reason to need/develop muscle mass but overall, not just the legs, then the arm/leg proportion should be similar in the morphed female to the morphed male. (Because the base arms is thinner for the women, that means the arms have to be morphed out for muscle bulk MORE than the legs - that is, if you actually just use male morph deltas on the female figure, the proportion won't be right because her arms started thinner in propotion to the legs than the male figure; you need to bulk up the arms more to reflect the real woman doing more work on her arms.)

    How do I find out?

    Well, I used to train (many years ago) in martial arts alongside women - and for some time with a female training partner as we were the only two on the same sash level in the class (sash for kung fu, like belt for Karate); and then again in a karate class. To keep up with the men, they had to train much harader to start with on their arms to get their arm strength (and therefore also speed) up.

    Plus I write. For a long time a fantasy series with a female character who mixes it up with the men, keeps up with the men - and I write 'realistic' fantasy, if you see what I mean. And I also set myself the task of writing a modern day set novel with a realistic action heroine - i.e. one who could really keep up with the male mercenary soldiers she was with, stand a chance in physical confrontation etc. For both I did a lot of research: studied examples of women who really could do the things the characters could; studied the physique and training of female MMA fighters (especially those with a misspent youth getting into bar fights with men), top female athletes in various fields, and of the stunt women who actually can and do do the things the skinny armed actresses have no hope of doing but the film requires (in Buffy The Vampire Slayer, I could always tell whether it was Sarah Michelle Gellar or her stunt double Sophia Crawford on screen just from arm thickness - Crawford's having vastly more muscle mass); studied up on the physical abilities and potentials and collated test results of women in both the British and US Army (both have published several studies on the topic of women in combat, freely available on the web which go into a lot of details on the male/female physiological differences and differing training requirements); read a few books by women soldiers who had undergone (some succeeding, some not) special forces training, or who had trades requiring them to be able to keep up with the infantry; and a bunch of other stuff.

    And I've looked at the training and physique of women competitive bodybuilders as part of that, as well as the men. In fact, the look of both male and female bodybuilders is entirely wrong for action heroes/heroines. It is absolutely the wrong training, and the wrong look, for anyone who wants all out strength (look at the men in the 'strongest man' competitions), or a combination of strength, speed and endurance. But it does still show the same thing I was talking about. Whether it is for bodybuilding competition, martial arts, all sorts of sports or matching male infantry soldier requirements, females have to - and therefore do - work much harder on their arms to build them up in proportion to the legs.

    And of course - there is the internet. Just search for female bodybuilders and you will find vast numbers of pictures. a search nobody at DAZ ever seems to have done.

    But - you see, I'm picky. If I write about, or want to do a render of, a female warrior/soldier/fighter character who can go blade to blade, or fist to fist with a male enemy; or carry a full size pistol or assault rifle and gear and still be able to dive for cover, run, get over the wall or up the cliff or into the tree, or E&E the pursuing foe ... my female character has to be someone who actually could, and have the characteristics required of someone who could. Which usually means (a) above average (for a woman) in size, and (b) very fit, having done a LOT of work on building up strength, speed and endurance, ESPECIALLY having done beaucoup work on upper body and arm strength, all of which will mean a noticeable increase in muscle mass(not like a competing bodybuilder on steroids, but noticeable), and arm/leg muscle size in a more male proportion. If not - then it's a joke.

    Sadly, TV, films and - yes - a lot of book cover art, comics and renders, take no notice of this reality. There are just legions of model-scrawny women with pipecleaner arms who could never lift the real sword rather than the light alloy prop; or if they could, couldn't hold it up for long, and if they actually tried fighting a man - even one their own size - would find he'd cut straight through their attempted parries and they couldn't hit him hard enough for him to notice, let alone be hurt - and they'd probably lose the sword the first time they cut and he blocked. Most women, unless they've actually been in a fight with a man - real full contact martial art training, or a REAL fight, not play - intellectually know mean are a 'bit' stronger than women, but really don't appreciate how MUCH stronger men are. And men have a 10 percent speed advantage too. And most film/TV with female fighters do women a big disservice by fostering the illusion. A realistic female fighter capable of mixing it with men unarmed or with swords, bows or guns will be an unusual woman - and will LOOK noticeably unusual simply due to the requirements of physics. And most especially will have built up her arms and upper body - otherwise she'll be dead first combat and right quick.

    (In a British Army study of all soldiers back in 2000 the data showed that 70 percent of the men COULD pass the minimum infantry fitness test standard if they had to and trained for it (the infantry are far less than 70 percent, and most of the rest weren't at that standard because they didn't need to be, but the numbers that COULD train to that level gave 70 percent of all men potentially could). The number of women who were actually able to pass the infantry fitness standard as they were was two in a thousand; add in those who had the capacity to train to pass it if they had to, and it was 1 in 100; add in those who could just pass it if they did - constantly - far more training than the men, and maintained that higher training rate the whole time to maintain the standard, and allowing the acceptability of the much higher injury rate they would sustain (stress fractures and the like) and you got to 3 in 100 - the maximum number, with the majority of them having to maintain much higher constant levels of physical training and a much higher work rate to match the men.

    By and large with DAZ morphs I have a lot of trouble getting the upper body/lower right when trying to bulk up muscle mass. With wholebody morphs like bodybuilder, get the legs right and the arms are pipecleaners; get the arms right and the legs are obscenely huge. If I'm lucky, arm bulk morphs at full and thigh shrink morphs at full almost balance the wholebody morph.

    And I really hate seeing all these renders of matchstick female 'warriors' who would never be able to fight with the weapons portrayed and would get knocked flat by one blow.

    Bedtime.

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