Genesis 2 is not Genesis

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  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,171
    edited December 1969

    I've been misquoted!!! ;p

  • diogenese19348diogenese19348 Posts: 625
    edited December 1969

    What strikes me as odd about the whole Gen2 -Gen1 discussion is that we all know what the reason for Gen1 was - A uni-mesh basis for all characters which allowed for auto-fitting of all accessories and clothing even with extreme morphing. Except possibly shoes *cough*. This was a step forward from the V4 model where male clothing was entirely separate from female. And I am also aware of the limitations that came up - the compromises involved made for less photo-realistic straight human characters.

    OK, so Gen2/V6 is an attempt to fix this. But there already IS something that fixes it, it is called V4. So don't tell me how Genesis 2 is better than Genesis 1. Tell me how supposedly it is better than V4, and why I should go through all the contortions necessary to move V4 mats, morphs and clothing to it since I have a huge amount of it.

    I already am using the Genesis 1 family for what it is extremely good at - and intend to keep doing so. Can somebody make the case of why V6 is better than V4? I really don't care about V5.

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,171
    edited June 2013

    .. the compromises involved ... straight human characters.

    ...why V6 is better than V4? ...

    It wasn't just human type characters, Trolls, etc.. all benefit from a dedicated mesh if ultimate definition with reasonable efficiency is the goal..

    V6 vs V4... same reasons as always, refinement to the product... mesh, weight maps, bending, farther limits it can be pushed to before breaking...

    V4 mats should be working on V6 imo, as there are two few that port over. Not having them work out-of-the-box is a mistake I believe. What should be selling Gen6 skins are better product using the new shaders. If that were the case, people would naturally gravitate away from the V4 skins over time, even if it was as easy as using V4 skins in Genesis(1)

    As to how much do the refinements matter, that is always a question that varies from person to person, each person in the end has to answer that themselves.

    Finally, the differences or lack thereof for any person will reveal themselves as more characters come out using the new form, as people put it through it's paces and renders come out.

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 28,716
    edited December 1969

    robkelk said:
    I'm waiting for Genesis 3, it can morph into anything !!!!


    Mmmmmmm... Genesis Cow...

    (Sockratease hasn't shown up yet - somebody had to say it!)
    ...and Poser Pro 2014 got the unflatable pony before we did!

    How could Daz let that happen?

  • GigabeatGigabeat Posts: 164
    edited December 1969

    My thinking is as that Genesis should be kept for toon & monster creatures as ultra-realism is not required for those figures. Genesis versatility makes it so awesome to dial up many different toons and beasties shapes and have clothes auto-fit them. Then there's Genesis 2 for the ultra-realistic human forms demanded by a few artists and possibly animators. Game engines require reduced resolution figure so I don't see how they will gain from Genesis 2. Also I don't think hobbyist (like myself) care a hoot about ultra-realism. This is why I feel Genesis 2 was released far too early as many tweaks still need to be done for the ultra-realism. I feel, as others have said, the loss of sales for DAZ from the Poser community not adopting Genesis probably hurt Daz enough to release Genesis 2 earlier than it really should be. Anyhoot, once again, that's just speculation on my part, but I feel quite plausible. Hopefully content creators will keep supporting the uni-mesh of Genesis, but only time and sales figures will tell. Sigh!

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 4,511
    edited December 1969

    GigaBeat said:
    Also I don't think hobbyist (like myself) care a hoot about ultra-realism.

    I'm a hobbyist, and I don't care about ultrarealism. Hate it actually. But I do appreciate all the benefits from a better rigged female figure that has better defined details.

  • GigabeatGigabeat Posts: 164
    edited June 2013

    GigaBeat said:
    Also I don't think hobbyist (like myself) care a hoot about ultra-realism.

    I'm a hobbyist, and I don't care about ultrarealism. Hate it actually. But I do appreciate all the benefits from a better rigged female figure that has better defined details.

    I'm not sure what to say. Better rigging seems to me something more important to animation, which I don't do, however I will concede that smoother mesh bending around joints is helpful. That's why weight maps is so wonderful.

    I really didn't like the old figures (generation 3 & 4) mesh deforming around even moderate bends and I had to use Daz Studio deformers (magnets in Poser) to tweak the the mesh into an acceptable shape after posing the figure. Though eventually some content creators did make some reasonable bend fixes / morph injections for that, thanks guys.

    Anyhoot what I'm really on about is how Genesis extended the versatility of toon & monster creatures, giving them access to clothes , etc that was only made for human figures. How often I would want DAZ Troll in some awesome armour made for M4 but couldn't, but with Genesis now I could. That is sooo sweet! But my fear is Genesis 2 is going to break that versatility of Genesis at the cost of some minor improvements requested by a pedantic few.

    Post edited by Gigabeat on
  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 4,511
    edited June 2013

    I wasn't sold initially, but after i used the free genesis 2 female basic shape for one pose I was sold. I will still use Genesi1 for toons, men and monsters. I won't invest on other new figures. No need for me.

    But I render a lot of women, and in pinup art the bends and musculature of the figure is a big selling point. I usually would morph or photoshop areas that didn't look right with Genesis. I have a ton of correction morphs and still feel lacking for genesis 1.

    While Genesis 2 is not perfect it bends better by default and has some nice details that people will pick out in renders. Not for everyone though.

    And Genesis 2 doesn't brake Genesis at all. i can still load up genesis just fine and load up a troll and put on a toon outfit.

    And I don't do animation, no time for that :)

    Post edited by larsmidnatt on
  • HellboyHellboy Posts: 1,147
    edited June 2013

    GigaBeat said:
    Anyhoot what I'm really on about is how Genesis extended the versatility of toon & monster creatures, giving them access to clothes , etc that was only made for human figures. How often I would want DAZ Troll in some awesome armour made for M4 but couldn't, but with Genesis now I could. That is sooo sweet! But my fear is Genesis 2 is going to break that versatility of Genesis at the cost of some minor improvements requested by a pedantic few.

    That's what I fear as well. I asked days ago and no one could answer me what in Genesis 2 compensates for the big limitations it has compared to Genesis.
    It feels like returning to the same stuff from like 10 years ago but incompatible with Poser. :/

    Post edited by Hellboy on
  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 13,211
    edited December 1969

    I am sold on genesis 2/Victoria 6, personally as well. She just looks more realistic to me especially the new facial expressions. The old genesis can look sort of blank there, or her facial expressions look really insipid and not real. I also really love the hands and the way her mouth looks.

    My disappointment- so far- has been with her clothing line, which doesn't seem to be much more real than genesis 1, and seems to be mostly impractical or fantasy clothing. Since I do sci-fi renders or family friendly pictures I'm always looking for clothing that has a more everyday, and useful for a variety of female character types.

    I also would like a few poses which are more practical as well. Some of the v5 poses seem kind of exaggerated to look pretty or sexy, and this is not always the look I'm looking for when poses female characters, although I confess the poses are great. Really. Lots of effort ther.e

    In general though, I can honestly say V6 is a win for me. And this is from someone who prefers to render guy characters. Hopefuly the M6 base model will be just as nice.

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 4,511
    edited December 1969

    Hellboy said:

    I asked days ago and no one could answer me what in Genesis 2 compensates for the big limitations it has compared to Genesis.
    :/

    I took Genesis 2 for a test spin and saw what was better. So if the free model doesn't work for you don't sweat it. I'm not going to sit around and argue whether they could or should have done it to the original Genesis or not. They didn't. So I take what they did and review it.

    Is Genesis 2 Female better female form then Genesis Female? Yep. And I'm not talking the shapes. I never used V5 and I won't use V6. But the bending and musculature ARE better in the new figure. Ultimately that is what happened. How they got there is in the past at this point.

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 4,511
    edited June 2013


    My disappointment- so far- has been with her clothing line, which doesn't seem to be much more real than genesis 1,


    I would agree here for different reasons. They aren't pushing the envelope at all and I haven't purchased anything outside the bundle. In this day and age I think that hair should not need so many baked in highlights, some of the initial hair for Genes2 is very toony and outdated.

    They can sell me fantasy and sexy clothes all day, but they didn't really try yet. It's the same style stuff we have seen a lot of in this store. Make better form fitting clothing that you couldn't in the past and not sell me 6 variations of the same under garments.

    There is more creative female clothing at that other store. Too bad it's all for V4 and won't take advantage of how nice Gen2 is rigged. Maybe autofit will work ok...

    Post edited by larsmidnatt on
  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 13,211
    edited December 1969


    My disappointment- so far- has been with her clothing line, which doesn't seem to be much more real than genesis 1,


    I would agree here for different reasons. They aren't pushing the envelope at all and I haven't purchased anything outside the bundle. In this day and age I think that hair should not need so many baked in highlights, some of the initial hair for Genes2 is very toony and outdated.

    They can sell me fantasy and sexy clothes all day, but they didn't really try yet. It's the same style stuff we have seen a lot of in this store. Make better form fitting clothing that you couldn't in the past and not sell me 6 variations of the same under garments.

    There is more creative female clothing at that other store. Too bad it's all for V4 and won't take advantage of how nice Gen2 is rigged. Maybe autofit will work ok...

    Yeah, so far, I haven't been tempted by the gen 2 clothing, hair or textures beyond what came with default vicky. I've been autofitting the pieces from my older sets.

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,489
    edited December 1969

    I took Genesis 2 for a test spin and saw what was better. So if the free model doesn't work for you don't sweat it. I'm not going to sit around and argue whether they could or should have done it to the original Genesis or not. They didn't. So I take what they did and review it.

    Is Genesis 2 Female better female form then Genesis Female? Yep. And I'm not talking the shapes. I never used V5 and I won't use V6. But the bending and musculature ARE better in the new figure. Ultimately that is what happened. How they got there is in the past at this point.


    I'll be honest, in terms of musculature I can often get better results out of V5 simply because the morphs are there right now. V6 is limited to V6 morphs, and because they're very female-oriented, there's generally less definition for much of them in terms of muscle. Because V5's morphs were designed to be figure independent, they often work better in my opinion, and the sliders can be set as high as you need or as subtle as needed for varying effects.

    As for bending, I've heard everyone mention it, but I've again yet to see it. In fact, there are some poses which seem more awkward on V6 than they did on V5. I've run side-by-side comparisons almost tirelessly to try and decide whether it's really worth my investment in a brand new figure with all-new morphs and an all-new wardrobe. So far for me the only major points of interest have been the extra expression power, and the articulated toes. I'm not sold.

    Now it's possible that the bending issues everyone talks about only occur during the more extreme poses, in which case it doesn't apply to me anyway as I don't use such things, but I could concede that it would be beneficial for those who do. The problem as I see it is that every new generation of figure gave significant improvements over the previous generation, and this is the first figure to break that cycle. Sure there are certainly improvements, but they come at the cost of many of the earlier generation's better features.

  • sagacitycomixsagacitycomix Posts: 23
    edited December 1969

    To be honest, when I saw the debut of Genesis 2, my heart just sank. I can't afford to invest in a whole new line while the one I've invested in starts to die.

    I have invested so much in Genesis and love it as the most versatile genderless base figure, and now there may be fewer items made for it. It makes me not want to get on any new bandwagon at Daz.

    I wish all the bells as whistles of Genesis 2 had been offered in an option/options to update Genesis, emphasis on optional, of course. These could even, if necessary, have been options we could have paid for, to generate revenue for Daz, but no.

    This is already an expensive hobby, and moves like this are really discouraging, making me think, "Should I get out and cut my losses, or let Daz continue to frequently jack my investments in their technology?"

    Kind of like what the mortgage industry's greediness did to home values. Will Genesis not go very much farther up now?

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,171
    edited June 2013

    Genesis(1) will survive, with or without DAZ tbh. If they abandoned the line, people would split off and support it. They would simply loose out on that market.

    The genie is out of the bottle and there's no putting it back.

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 4,511
    edited June 2013


    I'll be honest, in terms of musculature I can often get better results out of V5 simply because the morphs are there right now. V6 is limited to V6 morphs, and because they're very female-oriented, there's generally less definition for much of them in terms of muscle.
    It's not about being muscle bound, its about how human anatomy works. You can look at an anatomy book and see how even thin women have muscle groups.

    I've got my Genesis 1 morphs on Genesis 2. And I think you are missing what I am talking about completely. I put stock Gen1 and Gen2 in a room and posed them. You can see the definition better in a lot of areas, the quads form better over the knees, there is a subtle ridge going down Gen2 abdomen that you don't see in Gen1. So on and so forth. But for what you render it may not matter so it's moot. Just cause you can't see it doesn't mean it’s not there. And because you can't see it you’re not convinced, which is fine. But ultimately even if you did see it, not sure you would care.


    really worth my investment in a brand new figure with all-new morphs and an all-new wardrobe.

    I wouldn't do that. I'm not.



    As for bending, I've heard everyone mention it, but I've again yet to see it. Now it's possible that the bending issues everyone talks about only occur during the more extreme poses,


    Pose doesn't need to be extreme. Probably not appropriate for kids but Gen can just sit down on a chair with her legs spread. Or bend over a bit. And the knees, elbows and underarm are better as well. The underarm is one of the most noticeable improvements.


    Sure there are certainly improvements, but they come at the cost of many of the earlier generation's better features.
    Just use Gen1. You haven't lost anything. For me if Daz really felt that ditching the unisex figure was needed to get the improvements I got, I'm fine with that.


    I don't anticipate spending much on Genesis 2 frankly. I've gotten my morphs and custom characters over to genesis 2 and I almost feel like Genesis2 has as many options as I did for Genesis1. What’s lacking is UV support for me. I'm a bit miffed about losing expressions again, but I'll deal.

    But just like how Cookie is still a viable character I don't see why Genesis isn't. I don't fault people for not wanting Genesis2. I didn't want it so soon either, but after working with her shortly I saw the advantage and was happy to have it in my hands. At the same time I can see why others see the improvements minor, but for me there is no turning back because I see the distinct advantages.

    Edit: For clarity, I will still use genesis 1 for Men, Monsters and probably a certain toons. But for my pinups I will certainly use the new figure.

    Post edited by larsmidnatt on
  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,171
    edited June 2013

    I think that was well put Lars, and ty.. a good summary of some of the points :)

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 4,511
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    I think that was well put Lars, and ty.. a good summary of some of the points :)

    Thanks, I don't normally articulate myself that well on the forum because I am half-focused on a render, at work where I shouldn't be online, or browsing while eating. Sometimes I just cause more confusion LOL. But this time I wanted say things and have it not be too confusing.

  • Dino GrampsDino Gramps Posts: 0
    edited December 1969


    Just use Gen1. You haven't lost anything.

    This is the single statement that raises my blood pressure to dangerous levels.

    What I have lost is the ability to have the benefits of Gen2 that matter to me without having to pay twice for morphs (male & female) twice for a product like V4 to G2 (M4 to G2) and twice for products like Zev0 makes. I'm not talking about G1 to G2, I'm talking about male and female.
    I will never be convinced that you can't get 99% of what Gen2 has on a unisex morph if you increase the number of polys. That's what the did for G2F and what they will do for G2M. So combine the two so each sex has the increased polys that they need but on one mesh, We used to be able to put people on the moon, we can't do that?

    I would like to have the better facial expressions and better bends that G2 has and those are not gender specific.

    And if it really is necessary to have two figures, can't we have the Genesis bases come out at the same time so that we can buy the morphs etc. at one time?

    There's more, but I can't continue right now. I'm too enraged!

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,171
    edited December 1969

    While the face, joint, weight maps portions being gender neutral are all true and does need to be updated for Genesis base, there is no reason for an optimized male mesh to have near the polygon count in the breast area, hips etc.. as a female. Similarly, the male could use a different distribution in polygons in areas such as the lats.

    I think DAZ could have gone with an even more optimized mesh for V6. The fact they didn't is part of the confusion I believe. If they had, the clothing, skins, etc.. would have been even more of an issue, so to combat that there could have been tools to help with migrating content to the new meshes...

    Of course this is all Monday morning quarterback... except, what they do in the future. If they take a straight trajectory in the way V6 is currently... it doesn't look good, but then I could be surprised.

    As things stand now, I understand the frustrations many people feel.

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 4,511
    edited December 1969

    sjhayes2 said:

    Just use Gen1. You haven't lost anything.


    This is the single statement that raises my blood pressure to dangerous levels.


    Not trying to raise blood pressure. But I'll stick with the message you haven't lost anything.

    I think you are upset that you have not gained anything additional in Genesis 1. I think it is important to use the right word here as it should help change the mentality a bit. Loss and gain are different things.


    What I have lost is the ability to have the benefits of Gen2 that matter to me without having to pay twice for morphs (male & female) twice for a product like V4 to G2 (M4 to G2) and twice for products like Zev0 makes. I'm not talking about G1 to G2, I'm talking about male and female.

    Don't spend money on things you don't find valuable enough to justify the cost. No one is forcing you to do this. I know I will not be buying anything twice.


    I will never be convinced that you can't get 99% of what Gen2 has on a unisex morph if you increase the number of polys.


    I know they could have done what you say, but maybe it would have taken a lot longer to develop. I do believe it is easier to focus on one or the other and development time isn't free.


    I would like to have the better facial expressions and better bends that G2 has and those are not gender specific.


    Maybe the bends are gender specific, maybe G1's crotch always garbled up because it couldn't tell if it was supposed to be a guy or a girl. Not sure you are completely right here, but we won't know for certain until they release a male figure and we see how that is handled.

    And if it really is necessary to have two figures, can't we have the Genesis bases come out at the same time so that we can buy the morphs etc. at one time?
    That is probably a man-power thing. And it could just be a marketing thing where it's better for them to sell things slowly. But I think B feeds A and that A is a valid issue. But like you I prefer things more immediately. They should have at least released a G2 male figure, but my guess is that he isn't ready for primetime yet.
  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,171
    edited June 2013

    ...Maybe the bends are gender specific, maybe G1's crotch always garbled up because it couldn't tell if it was supposed to be a guy or a girl.

    This brings up a good point I forgot to mention before. The mesh in this area could be optimized to better fit geometry that geo-graphs in this area provide. From what I've seen from other posts, this hasn't been done (yet) but it is an area where different topology could make a big difference. For that matter, there isn't really any reason to have separate geo's here if the base topo was set up for custom morphs. They wouldn't even have to be modeled, just the topo in place to provide them in PA products or custom dialed.

    It also provides an area where DAZ could provide a base mesh without the detail mesh in this area, thus mitigating much of the concern many people have over this.

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • MallenLaneMallenLane Posts: 126
    edited December 1969

    Finding a home for all that geometry there is complicated, as you can see in the grafts themselves. When I mean home, you don't just cut locally into an area and leave it, it has to flow into the rest of the model well, and not cause shading errors\imperfections across a wide variety of shaping. And sub-d tension being what it is, even attempting to flatten down and try to keep such dense built in geometry smooth, and keep it that way across tons of morphs, would be daunting. It would always have a sort of built in visible detail happening.

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 4,511
    edited June 2013

    Here is a good quote

    riftwitch said:
    One difference I noticed with Genesis 2 is the full body morphs in the Genesis 2 Female Body Morphs set. Unlike the ones that come standard with Genesis 1, they really seem tailored for the female form. I'm assuming that when the Genesis 2 Male is released, the equivalent set of body morphs will likewise be optimized for male figures.

    Original post http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/24432/#361012

    Granted again, the argument that Daz didn't need to split genders to do this still holds. They could have just have two sets of morphs, one for females with muscles and another for men. But they didn't (for genesis1). But they did provide content that is better suited for women with this release and that works for me.

    I've been trying to explain to folks for a while now that dialing in the freak to women does not equal a she-freak. Most female body builders do look distinct from men.

    I know this is a side topic, but just trying to show direction here. Daz is trying to show the benefits of splitting genders even if they aren't doing a good job of pointing this stuff out on their own.

    For some this will be a mistake, for others it will be something to leverage and take advantage of.

    Post edited by larsmidnatt on
  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,171
    edited June 2013

    Finding a home for all that geometry there is complicated, as you can see in the grafts themselves. When I mean home, you don't just cut locally into an area and leave it, it has to flow into the rest of the model well, and not cause shading errors\imperfections across a wide variety of shaping. And sub-d tension being what it is, even attempting to flatten down and try to keep such dense built in geometry smooth, and keep it that way across tons of morphs, would be daunting. It would always have a sort of built in visible detail happening.

    Yes, I thought of that right after posting... thank you for the clarification :)
    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969


    I've been trying to explain to folks for a while now that dialing in the freak to women does not equal a she-freak. Most female body builders do look distinct from men.

    On a matter of She-Freak not being Freak + Basic Female I agree. But in a thread on those forums people came with some amazing Genesis She Freak combinations which looked very authentic for me.
  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,171
    edited June 2013

    There is no question one can do a lot with a base generic mesh... especially with adding in displacement, micro displacement, smoothing...

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 4,511
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:

    I've been trying to explain to folks for a while now that dialing in the freak to women does not equal a she-freak. Most female body builders do look distinct from men.

    On a matter of She-Freak not being Freak + Basic Female I agree. But in a thread on those forums people came with some amazing Genesis She Freak combinations which looked very authentic for me.

    I was in that thread and contributed one render. I think there were some good results in the mix of posts.


    This is sort of an aside but what the thread reminded me is that not all people see details the same, and that what may look wrong to a specialist looks good or even great to the casual observer.

    We can't make improvements if we focus exclusively on what the casual viewer sees, but we also need to be mindful of what improvements may be completely lost to them as well.

    This relates to art in general, don't spend time on things others won't notice, but don't assume no one is paying attention either because then you get called out !

  • LordHardDrivenLordHardDriven Posts: 936
    edited June 2013


    but the M4 figure never had female morphs that I know of.

    Actually M4 did have a female option it came with M4 Enhanced and the female Character it created was known as Mina. I don't think it caught on though because I don't recall ever seeing anyone use it in a render or if they did they didn't promote the fact they used it. Here's a link to the product page for it. http://www.daz3d.com/m4-enhanced-mina-for-m4

    Post edited by LordHardDriven on
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