Interactive License?

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  • Yeah there are a number of such threads on the UE4 forums you will find FrankieV in there explaining Daz usage in UE4

    The really cool thin with what he is doing is the way he is using hte models in game. The way he has them in pieces in order to form the complet character is interesting and allows him to alter characters (clothing hair ect) on the fly

  • DkgooseDkgoose Posts: 1,439

    If the addons will eventually allow me to be able to buy one of the 3D print figures and be able to gift it to someone for Christmas or whatever than I'll buy them :)

  • PadonePadone Posts: 1,367
    edited November 2017

    Most assets in the store do not fit game engines. Still they sell an interactive license. This makes no sense to me. In my opinion if a cutomer get an interactive license and then finds out that the asset doesn't fit for game engines, that is legitimated for a refund.

    Assets selling an interactive license should at the very least have textures optimized for games. I've seen horrible things in the DAZ store with a huge wasting of vram memory because of poor optimization of textures. Also they should provide efficient normal maps. HD morphs and displacement maps are not usable in games.

    Another option would be to fix and improve the texture atlas and the decimator plugins so that they can efficiently convert assets for games. Actually they are almost useless for most assets available in the store.

     

    EDIT: this is from the DAZ info page https://www.daz3d.com/interactive-license-info "Unless otherwise specified, no discounts or offers will apply to Interactive Licenses, and these licenses are not eligible for returns or refunds." .. really .. I don't know if this is even legal .. at least here in Italy a refund is always granted by law for online purchases .. ..

    Post edited by Padone on
  • mikekmikek Posts: 160
    edited November 2017

    I wonder how many people actually use Daz mesh in completed, released Interactive Software/Games. 

    And I wonder how many people come to Daz for that, instead of one of the engine stores?

    I have a history with the game industry but very little insight into the indie ‘scene’. Have there been conversations elsewhere recommending Daz as a mesh source? RawArt said he’d only ever sold a few game licenses but maybe that was just him. I’m sure more licensed for DO mesh were sold, just based on discussions here. But— how big is this?

    Concerning RawArt one has to consider daz is usually the place devs go if they want realistic human characters as it's where they stand out the most in comparsion to competing stores. Maybe this will change with time when we see more non humans in the store and more developers who see daz as an alternative content source. It's also a bit difficult to put more than a male+female version of his products in the same game without having a very specific setup for the game lore. That aside I really like what he does and had him on my PA licenses to buy list.

    Post edited by mikek on
  • BeeMKayBeeMKay Posts: 6,729
    edited November 2017
    pruggi said:
    frank0314 said:

    Debating it here in the forums will get you nowhere. People in the forum have no ability to change anything. I suggest submitting a ticket and let them know your concerns.

    Just to add my two pence, that is not really getting me any 'real' information either. My support request answers (regarding the licensing / questions about indie-commercial differentiations and upgrades) just skipped all my specific questions altogether and quoted what the new license was about. I understand support is probably bogged down by requests and tickets - totally get that... but it seems that there should be answers/understanding prepared for such important and pretty basic inquiries about a monumental change before it happens.

    That being said, Daz support has always been beyond stellar, so I have hopes that there will be clearer answers to all of this in the near future.

    I've had them closing tickets on me too in the past where they didn't understand what I was trying to get at. I just reopened the ticket and explained why the answer wasn't sufficient; if neccessary there's always the option to ask them to forward this to a higher-up. It's important to keep following through. There's also always the option to snail mail their CEO at the office.

    Honestly, if you are really bent on keeping that license type, just be prepared for a few weeks or months of struggle. Like I said, for those who have been around a while, if you recall the entire Encrypted Content issue, you know that DAZ acted back then just like they did now. And I sincerly hope that just like back then, they will get enough feedback from people to reconsider and add something that will help all parties involved.

    EDIT for spelling

    Post edited by BeeMKay on
  • BeeMKay said:
    pruggi said:
    frank0314 said:

    Debating it here in the forums will get you nowhere. People in the forum have no ability to change anything. I suggest submitting a ticket and let them know your concerns.

    Just to add my two pence, that is not really getting me any 'real' information either. My support request answers (regarding the licensing / questions about indie-commercial differentiations and upgrades) just skipped all my specific questions altogether and quoted what the new license was about. I understand support is probably bogged down by requests and tickets - totally get that... but it seems that there should be answers/understanding prepared for such important and pretty basic inquiries about a monumental change before it happens.

    That being said, Daz support has always been beyond stellar, so I have hopes that there will be clearer answers to all of this in the near future.

    I've had them closing tickets on me too in the past where they didn't understand what I was trying to get at. I just reopened the ticket and explained why the answer wasn't sufficient; if neccessary there's always the option to ask them to forward this to a higher-up. It's important to keep following through. There's also always the option to snail mail their CEO at the office.

    Honestly, if you are really bent on keeping that license type, just be prepared for a few weeks or months of struggle. Like I said, for those who have been around a while, if you recall the entire Encrypted Contend issue, you know that DAZ acted back then just like they did now. And I sindcerly hope that just like back then, they will get enough feedback from people to reconsider and add something that will help all parties involved.

    This might be are only option.

  • jillval8jillval8 Posts: 50
    edited November 2017
    mikek said:

    I wonder how many people actually use Daz mesh in completed, released Interactive Software/Games. 

    And I wonder how many people come to Daz for that, instead of one of the engine stores?

    I have a history with the game industry but very little insight into the indie ‘scene’. Have there been conversations elsewhere recommending Daz as a mesh source? RawArt said he’d only ever sold a few game licenses but maybe that was just him. I’m sure more licensed for DO mesh were sold, just based on discussions here. But— how big is this?

    Concerning RawArt one has to consider that daz is usually the place devs go if they want realistic human characters as it's where they stand out the most in comparsion to competing stores. Maybe this will change with time when we see more non humans in the store and more developers who see daz as an alternative content source. It's also a bit difficult to put more than a male+female version of his products in the same game without having a very specific setup for the game lore. That aside I really like what he does and had him on my PA licenses to buy list.

    Could not agree more, I "had" "was" a couple of PA's on my to buy list as well, that's the sad part. :(

    Post edited by jillval8 on
  • th3Digit said:
    Atanacius said:

    Sorry to intrude here, but how does being nasty and combative help anyone? It's standard and considered good form for companies to announce significant changes well in advance, to provide customers a wide window to make suitable decisions for themselves. I check the store somewhat regularly. I rarely check the forums unless I'm researching something.

    The first I saw about the change was the email announcing that it had already happened. That's at best poor form. People are right to be upset.

    Being relieved you got the license you want/need for your purposes before the abrupt change isn't a good reason for you to be a jerk to everyone who didn't.

    Have some compassion, like I imagine you would want for yourself if the situation were reversed.

    Totally Agree, some people here are really mad against people who don't purchase the license when it was possible to do (sales or not!).
    The fact is I not purchased the license myself, I don't need the license by the way, but I fully understand how people need it are now upset or biased in their project...

    @People that own any of the OLD license: YOU CAN BE MORE EMPATHIC ABOUT PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE IT
    Like @dazamonium said, how you will think if it was YOU who don't purchased the license?
    Please, can we continue to have a fluid, nice discussion, calm down people, make love not war ! ;)

    I feel bad for the people without the old DAZ freebies lost on the archived site, I have most of them, found a stash on a forgotten disc only recently but cannot legally help them, only DAZ can and same with the vaulted stuff

    this is just another case of this

    I just differ on the term unfair, is indeed unfortunate, I sympathise but DAZ as a company selling stuff is entitled to do as they wish, its not unfair just business.

    I have many old archive freebies, I spent many days to download them before DAZ take out from their servers!
    (I'm glad I had what we can call: "A collection hobbie" in past !)
    Anyway, for answer to: "its not unfair just business."
    I will say this: Business is unfair due to the nature of commercial purpose.
    It's clear, business need to be unfair (obviously), but sometime, customers deserves more than business choice and impact :(

  • BeeMKay said:
    pruggi said:
    frank0314 said:

    Debating it here in the forums will get you nowhere. People in the forum have no ability to change anything. I suggest submitting a ticket and let them know your concerns.

    Just to add my two pence, that is not really getting me any 'real' information either. My support request answers (regarding the licensing / questions about indie-commercial differentiations and upgrades) just skipped all my specific questions altogether and quoted what the new license was about. I understand support is probably bogged down by requests and tickets - totally get that... but it seems that there should be answers/understanding prepared for such important and pretty basic inquiries about a monumental change before it happens.

    That being said, Daz support has always been beyond stellar, so I have hopes that there will be clearer answers to all of this in the near future.

    I've had them closing tickets on me too in the past where they didn't understand what I was trying to get at. I just reopened the ticket and explained why the answer wasn't sufficient; if neccessary there's always the option to ask them to forward this to a higher-up. It's important to keep following through. There's also always the option to snail mail their CEO at the office.

    Honestly, if you are really bent on keeping that license type, just be prepared for a few weeks or months of struggle. Like I said, for those who have been around a while, if you recall the entire Encrypted Contend issue, you know that DAZ acted back then just like they did now. And I sindcerly hope that just like back then, they will get enough feedback from people to reconsider and add something that will help all parties involved.

    That joke... Encrypted content was just a joke..
    I remember encrypted products was (even if some of them remain in the DAZ store), just... boycotted :o

  • BryseyBrysey Posts: 65
    edited November 2017

    I totally see myself buying the indie license for daz content and buy the interactive for PA items i want.I'm in agreement 

    I'm in agreement with this and I'm not in the games development industry but for me the timing of this change is the issue as we still seem to be in the middle of the PC+ sales which did include the DAZ Indie Gaming License which I was looking to purchase as traditionally one of the best times to do so pricing wise. There must be a lot of students or recent graduates that purely based on bulk of content could benefit from a legit relatively inexpensive way to use these resources whether ultimately they produce a game that sells or not.

    Post edited by Brysey on
  • Not sure how many completed games use Daz models, but there are plenty discussions among indies. I know on Epics Unreal engine forums there are people discussing using using Daz. As for unity, while I know there are people who talk about bringing Daz models into the engine Daz has a option called Morph3d which is a game only Daz system. It got a lower price tag than Daz but the models are only usabe in Unity.

    The Morph3D system is only available in the Unity Store but the licence of anything purchased in the Unity Asset Store allows users to use those assets in any game engine, so if one needed only the models or is able to port the system to another engine, Morph3D could be used in another game engine.

    I just saw on Morph3D website that they have a new software called 'morph studio' coming 'soon' aimed at games and VR.

    Since it seems that Morph3D is a Daz Company and that I don't see how anyone serious about making a game could do so with assets from the Daz store with the new licensing system, I now wonder if this move with the interactive license is not a way to drive game makers away from Daz and have them use systems made for games, namely Morph3D and that new stuff when it'll come out.

    I guess time will tell.

     

  • jillval8jillval8 Posts: 50
    edited November 2017

    Morph3D  is defentily useless, with the new license system as well, becasuse daz in general is strickly limited if you want to invest and make anything truly unique with the new system they have in place. It even rendered the PA's content useless in many indies's eyes that were considering picking anything up from them, Im talking about the people who dont own the indie license.. Like someone mention before, Daz took 1 step foward and 2 steps back. Personally I think they did a cartwheel backwards.

     

    Im actally more interested if anyone will be able to get a response from daz, that isnt robotic in nature.

    Post edited by jillval8 on
  • Love the new pc item listed at 3$ but you gonna pay 50$ for 3d rendering....

    *sigh*

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 32,245

    $3  because you are a PC member.  a lot more than that for those that aren't.

  • ThepalAUThepalAU Posts: 8
    edited November 2017
    Ok... Just popped into the store and saw about this. Here are my thoughts: Anyone with the old DAZ Original licenses are able to continue using all part and future DAZ Original products forever. The PA licenses were often for only a single game, but the DO ones didn't have a limit. Luckily I bought the indie license a while ago. However, if I release a successful game I can no longer but the commercial game license like I had planned, and there is no way in hell I'd pay the ridiculous new license fees they are charging per item. If the time comes that I'm earning over $100,000 I'll do the following: Contact DAZ and see if they will license their Originals products, as a whole like they used to, for a reasonable fee. If not, I'll just have to find someone who bought the perpetual Commercial Game License, and offer them a reasonable amount to be a "Producer" for my game, thereby gaining access to their license. I don't really see a third option here. DAZ will lose a lot of money if they are not willing to license their products for a reasonable amount.
    Post edited by ThepalAU on
  • ThepalAU said:
    .

    Youre not the only one with questions about how the indie license works. I believe a few people on here asked Daz whats up with it; is there an upgrade or is the new system, daz indie and daz pro all one in the same now?

    Was hoping someone got a real answer back from Daz on this because it seems they are giving out robotic responses that offer no clear answer.

  • ThepalAU said:
    Ok... Just popped into the store and saw about this. Here are my thoughts: Anyone with the old DAZ Original licenses are able to continue using all part and future DAZ Original products forever. The PA licenses were often for only a single game, but the DO ones didn't have a limit. Luckily I bought the indie license a while ago. However, if I release a successful game I can no longer but the commercial game license like I had planned, and there is no way in hell I'd pay the ridiculous new license fees they are charging per item. If the time comes that I'm earning over $100,000 I'll do the following: Contact DAZ and see if they will license their Originals products, as a whole like they used to, for a reasonable fee. If not, I'll just have to find someone who bought the perpetual Commercial Game License, and offer them a reasonable amount to be a "Producer" for my game, thereby gaining access to their license. I don't really see a third option here. DAZ will lose a lot of money if they are not willing to license their products for a reasonable amount.

    The EULA is quite confusing in some parts but as I understand it there is no more 100k limit. So it seems both the Indie and Commercial version are tranfered into the Interactive one without limitation. "3.0 Interactive License Addendum The terms of this addendum 3.0 are in force only when User has purchased a “Game Develoer License” or an “Interactive License Add-On” from the online DAZ store."
  • marander3dmarander3d Posts: 50
    edited November 2017
    This part of the EULA is very confusing to me: --------------------------- "Three Dimensional Works. DAZ wishes to encourage the expansion of the catalog of Content available to its users. Accordingly, User may access, use, copy, and modify the Content to create one or more derived or additional three-dimensional works provided that:  any such derived or additional three-dimensional works are designed to require or encourage the use of CRT Content available through the online DAZ store either by (i) requiring the use of such CRT Content to function, or (ii) allowing only limited function when not used in conjunction with CRT Content from the online DAZ store; and upon receipt of a written request from DAZ, User immediately ceases any and all distribution of the art that User has created from the CRT Content, if DAZ has determined, in its sole discretion, that (i) such art is substantially similar to or is a clone of existing Content; or (ii) such derived or additional work fails to require the use of Content available through the online DAZ store."
    Post edited by marander3d on
  • woow this is a very let down for me if I understand this correctly.

    First I always wanted to buy the commercial licence, and I was waiting to my correct (wallet) moment. So i didn`t.

    So basically if I want to buy a simple wearable, I need to play the $50 interactive licence right?

    What happen with the base genesis models? I need the licence too?

    So for a character I need the interactive licence for the model, the morphs, for the cloths, hairs etc?

     

    (yes I am a hobbiest game developer with indie dreams)

     

  • This part of the EULA is very confusing to me: --------------------------- "Three Dimensional Works. DAZ wishes to encourage the expansion of the catalog of Content available to its users. Accordingly, User may access, use, copy, and modify the Content to create one or more derived or additional three-dimensional works provided that:  any such derived or additional three-dimensional works are designed to require or encourage the use of CRT Content available through the online DAZ store either by (i) requiring the use of such CRT Content to function, or (ii) allowing only limited function when not used in conjunction with CRT Content from the online DAZ store; and upon receipt of a written request from DAZ, User immediately ceases any and all distribution of the art that User has created from the CRT Content, if DAZ has determined, in its sole discretion, that (i) such art is substantially similar to or is a clone of existing Content; or (ii) such derived or additional work fails to require the use of Content available through the online DAZ store."

    I believe that section deals with taking an item we buy on daz and using as a base to create a new item. Like taking the base Victoria 8 and creating a new chracter named Tina. In order for me to sell Tina I must require the buyer to own Victoria 8. 

  • marander3dmarander3d Posts: 50
    edited November 2017
    Thanks that makes sense but I'm still confused because selling assets is only possible for PA's, validated by DAZ and selling items should not be possible or covered by Interactive license. And if I put the characters in a game it shouldn't matter how they look or what their names are as long as I use content for which I have the interactive license and it's part of an interactive experience. And I don't inderstand what that has to do with the DAZ online store.
    Post edited by marander3d on
  • What about animation products and the new interactive Licence system?

    I did invest in a lot of content from the Daz Store for an animation project > What will be the impact?

    I am  afraid that a lot of my content will get useless after this decision.

    I hope you can reassure me that 2 years work will not be for nothing!!
  • Thanks that makes sense but I'm still confused because selling assets is only possible for PA's, validated by DAZ and selling items should not be possible or covered by Interactive license. And if I put the characters in a game it shouldn't matter how they look or what their names are as long as I use content for which I have the interactive license and it's part of an interactive experience. And I don't inderstand what that has to do with the DAZ online store.

    Good point. Maybe they have it as a set boundries on what the old dev license applies too/ overwrites in the new license system.

     

  • marander3dmarander3d Posts: 50
    edited November 2017
    Thanks that makes sense but I'm still confused because selling assets is only possible for PA's, validated by DAZ and selling items should not be possible or covered by Interactive license. And if I put the characters in a game it shouldn't matter how they look or what their names are as long as I use content for which I have the interactive license and it's part of an interactive experience. And I don't inderstand what that has to do with the DAZ online store.

    Good point. Maybe they have it as a set boundries on what the old dev license applies too/ overwrites in the new license system.

     

    Edit: I think I understand now. This part is not specific to the Interactive license but general terms of use about selling in other stores for example (i.e. selling a mod by requiring assets from the DAZ store like a base model). It's in chapters 1.5 and replaced in 3. Thanks, I think you helped me understand it!
    Post edited by marander3d on
  • marander3dmarander3d Posts: 50
    edited November 2017
    JTVRT said:

    What about animation products and the new interactive Licence system?

    I did invest in a lot of content from the Daz Store for an animation project > What will be the impact?

    I am  afraid that a lot of my content will get useless after this decision.

    I hope you can reassure me that 2 years work will not be for nothing!!

    When you render 2D images / image sequences / videos and don't distribute a game or software that contains meshes or textures than I don't see a problem. I export my DAZ content via FBX to C4D to modify, animate and render there.
    Post edited by marander3d on
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 25,442
    edited November 2017
    JTVRT said:

    What about animation products and the new interactive Licence system?

    I did invest in a lot of content from the Daz Store for an animation project > What will be the impact?

    I am  afraid that a lot of my content will get useless after this decision.

    I hope you can reassure me that 2 years work will not be for nothing!!

     

    When you render 2D images / image sequences / videos and don't distribute a game or software that contains meshes or textures than I don't see a problem. I export my DAZ content via FBX to C4D to animate and render there.

    I think perhaps  they mean animations in games for NPC etc

    for that I would suggest the iClone pipeline bundle 

    Post edited by WendyLuvsCatz on
  • Thanks that makes sense but I'm still confused because selling assets is only possible for PA's, validated by DAZ.

    No, it appleis to content sold (or given away free) elsewhere.

  • Thanks that makes sense but I'm still confused because selling assets is only possible for PA's, validated by DAZ.

    No, it appleis to content sold (or given away free) elsewhere.

    Richard thanks, I understand now (after realizing that this is also part of the standard license (chapter 1.5), see my post above). Cheers!
  • CypherFOXCypherFOX Posts: 3,349

    Greetings,

    (yes I am a hobbiest game developer with indie dreams)

    Look...as a hobbyist game dev, don't stress over licensing.  It's so laughably unimportant, I can't even...

    Most folks won't finish building a game.  They. Just. Won't.  It sucks to say it out loud, and EVERY person thinks they're the exception to the rule, but it's true.

    For your first game, instead of anguish over the license changes, just build a small, self-contained game.  Give yourself ~3 months before it MUST be complete.  'I've been working on my first game for years!' is not an excuse.  That's procrastinating, not developing a first game.  If you need to buy more than a few pieces of content, you're trying to do too much in your early games.  Don't even buy the Unity license, if you're using Unity.  Use the free version until you've FINISHED a game; you truly don't need the extra features.  (Once your first game is done, and ready to ship, then you can upgrade to get rid of the splash screen.)

    Games that are fun, are still fun without the content.  I did software development for a game company where this lesson was SEARED into their DNA, after a few spectacular, expensive, beautiful, brilliantly visualized games with innovative technology but relatively dull gameplay nearly destroyed the company.  By the time I came onboard, they had a person whose sole job was to create one to two week prototypes of all new core gameplay ideas using a very simple set of tools and geometric shapes.  If you couldn't show that the core gameplay was fun without ANY additional content, it didn't get past being a one-pager proposal.

    Seriously, don't stress or spend money on a massive library of 3D content until you've NAILED gameplay, AND you've nailed the ability to FINISH.  Getting that first (second, and third!) game to 'done' is SO much harder than dealing with licensing...

    One of my favorite posts on the Unity forums puts this SO much better than I can.  It's worth reading and re-reading on a regular basis.

    --  Morgan

     

  • jillval8jillval8 Posts: 50
    edited November 2017
    JTVRT said:

    Could anybody point me at an existing game that uses assets like this? Like.... a bunch of different human people, with different clothes, as an essential gameplay element? In my own Steam library I'm mostly coming up with stuff like... Skyrim, and other big-setting RPGs. Big budget stuff. All the indie stuff is... small, hardly any characters at all ((if any). But I don't see everything, of course. What exactly is the model here?

    *

    The thing about 'working on a game' instead of 'releasing a game' is that you can STILL WORK ON A GAME. You can use stand-in assets or whatever. A license is not needed to Work On A Game. And I doubt anybody who looks at Steam regularly is going to be surprised at how many games do get released. It's still a drop in the bucket to how many people are 'working on a game'. Heck, I'm working on THREE games and I have ideas for about three more (although none of them require 3d mesh).

    OK, so you're thinking: why should I 'work on a game' if I don't KNOW that I'll SOMEDAY be able to release it and sell it? And, well... ultimately everybody has to find their own answer to that but I think a good one is: to see if you can make a game. And you know, then, if you actually complete a game and all you need is that darn license, I bet a license can be acquired. Or somebody else will start selling the perfect assets you can swap in. Or you get a volunteer modeler. Or you pitch it somewhere and a small indie team gets excited by it. But if you stop the journey because you can't see the end, well... you'll never see the end. But if you make the journey and then you have to trunk a finished game because you couldn't get the licensing right, well, for one, you've finished a game! and learned a lot! and for two.... you're a lot like a number of independent creators, who worked really, really hard on something, for months and years, and then just... couldn't... sell it. For whatever reason. It isn't strange or unusual. It's just... the process of being a creator.
    a
    Yeah, the license being changed sucks. But I really, really hope it won't stop anybody from actually making a game. Because releasing that game is the very last step, and often a long road away, and so much can happen between here and there and there's so much to see along the way.... that it's really worth it, even if what you get is a game nobody ever plays. Go ahead, ask me how I know. :-)

     

     

     

    Most indies as of today don't have the capital to hire artist, you do have indies the constants of 3, 2, and/or even 1 person that are able to make decent and fun games daz, might not be AAA populaity, but that's nothing to aspect, but indeed possible. Else the commecial license would have never existed. That's were daz3d "played" a big part, and allow that indie developer or small studio that was tight on money to start of small by giving that indie developer a vairety of models, and tools to alter and mix and make something unique, something you cant and will never get on the asset store and most of other sites. That's what made daz pupolar amonst indies, else you wouldn't have all these cool tools and plugins specifially made for daz on the asset store, allow us to have facial animations, speech plugins, great sites like maximo, and the list goes on. As a game developers and other developers on this forum expressing our complaints and concerns, we wouldnt be here if daz wasn't a useful place to help us start of small. beieleve or not daz was a great tool to help indies start off small, which made daz popular, because I say again, most indies dont have the captitle to hire artist and I forgot to mention most indies don't know "that guy" who happens to no how to do 3d models. You have people who have stated a couple of times here saying that put months, years, into there project and was plainning on purchasing the daz license soon as they were able to do so, and now a brickwall was put up. That's time alot of us can never get back.. All I'm saying man, is it's easier said then done, which is something common these days, because as a indie myself I'll never tell another developer what they need to focus more on and what their workflow should constints of, because at the end of the day, peoples talents, ideas, and and nohow are different, they know what tools they need to work with to get something done.

    Post edited by jillval8 on
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