Interactive License?

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  • jillval8 said:

    Interactive License should be no more then 5 dollars. although i dont see it happaing. Like stated before both options should be there foe anyone with large projects, .

    With all due respect, I would rather see the licensing go away completely than see it turned into a virtual giveaway, which is what you're proposing.

  • AlienRendersAlienRenders Posts: 685
    edited November 2017

    I don't really care about PA licenses. I like that you can buy licenses on a per item basis because sometimes items had 3 or 4 Artists and some of them didn't have licenses so you couldn't even use it in a game. Also, it was usually only for one game. However, I think DAZ should keep selling the Indie and Commercial Game licenses. These were great. You only needed to buy it once and you don't need to renew. This is decent value if you make more than one game. Also, the selection of DAZ products is quite nice as you didn't need any PA licenses if it was a DAZ Original.

    Short story is that I'd bring back the DAZ game licenses along with adding the per item licenses. Having both options would be good I think for DO products.

    edit: Can you buy the license after you've already purchased the item? Doesn't seem like it.

    Post edited by AlienRenders on
  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 8,143
    jillval8 said:

    Interactive License should be no more then 5 dollars. although i dont see it happaing. Like stated before both options should be there foe anyone with large projects, .

    Totally disagree. Having worked on game development, if you don't have the skill, team or resources to develop your own assets for 'your" game, then you should expect to pay a much higher price for the license to use someone elses mesh for your game usage. I worked for an indie studio where we paid a pretty penny for a single game ready model since it was needed quickly and we didn't have time to develop it ourselves when needed. From a user POV, yeah, it will get expensive if you plan to use DAZ only models for your game, but there is the alternative and actually doing the work yourself, it's what modeling apps are for.

  • jillval8jillval8 Posts: 50
    edited November 2017

    I just dont see why we can have both options.. PA "claim" they were okay with is. There a litterially no options now outside of one group of people.

    Post edited by jillval8 on
  • I don't really care about PA licenses. I like that you can buy licenses on a per item basis because sometimes items had 3 or 4 Artists and some of them didn't have licenses so you couldn't even use it in a game. Also, it was usually only for one game. However, I think DAZ should keep selling the Indie and Commercial Game licenses. These were great. You only needed to buy it once and you don't need to renew. This is decent value if you make more than one game. Also, the selection of DAZ products is quite nice as you didn't need any PA licenses if it was a DAZ Original.

    Short story is that I'd bring back the DAZ game licenses along with adding the per item licenses. Having both options would be good I think for DO products.

    edit: Can you buy the license after you've already purchased the item? Doesn't seem like it.

    Yes; find it in your Product Library, go to the store page from there, and check the box for the license. The button on the page will change from Purchased, to Add License.

  • Again, nothing in the DAZ store is game ready. It takes a lot of work to get it game ready. I'm looking at the prices and they are too high for the licenses compared to what it was before. You could often get discounts on the licenses. But now, you can pay $200+ for 4 items. And considering how many items have shaders, textures, and other stuff as separate products, that would come to a hefty price. Not really worth it. And yes, I can make my own items. It's just easier to license stuff if the price is right. I don't think it is anymore. If you just want a single item, maybe. But then, what's the point?

  • mikekmikek Posts: 160
    edited November 2017

    Game development is frankly far too much coding for most DAZ Customers, but many would like to save thier scenes in webgl and such to make walkthroughs and interactive scenes.

    My impression was always they are trying to expand what customers they are reaching and try to get a piece of the cake game stores like unity have. Expanding their market is a good thing as artists here can earn more which results in more content for us. But if they make it to steep for the indy developers maybe they aren't their target anymore.

    Post edited by mikek on
  • AlienRenders

        You make great points, but I would like to answer your question: "If you just want a single item, maybe. But then, what's the point?"

    As an indie licenses holder myself I recently started moving away from buying so much stuff from daz to creating my own. Hair, outfits, props and scense can get expensive. Which is why I bought the tutorials on creating hair and outfits. No doubt I will still buy Daz products but I do not buy them in the numbers that I used to

  • jillval8jillval8 Posts: 50
    edited November 2017
    mikek said:

    Game development is frankly far too much coding for most DAZ Customers, but many would like to save thier scenes in webgl and such to make walkthroughs and interactive scenes.

    My impression was always they are trying to expand what customers they are reaching and try to get a piece of the cake game stores like unity have. Expanding their market is a good thing as artists here can earn more which results in more content for us. But if they make it to steep for the indy developers maybe they aren't their target anymore.

    I get your point, but how do you Expand your market by taking options away.???????????

     

    AlienRenders

       "If you just want a single item, maybe. But then, what's the point?"

    Ding Ding DIng!

    Post edited by jillval8 on
  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 8,143
    mikek said:

    Game development is frankly far too much coding for most DAZ Customers, but many would like to save thier scenes in webgl and such to make walkthroughs and interactive scenes.

    My impression was always they are trying to expand what customers they are reaching and try to get a piece of the cake game stores like unity have. Expanding their market is a good thing as artists here can earn more which results in more content for us. But if they make it to steep for the indy delvelopers maybe they aren't their target anymore.

    I have followed the various discussions of users wanting DAZ assets to use in their game, seen the offerings from DAZ and Morph3d and never really thought Daz was trying to target the game developer market. If anything, seeing the abuse of daz and other game assets on the web and in other games, I always thought of the licensing as more of a cover your legal and monetary butt more than anything else. To me, if they really wanted their assets used in a game environment, the most basic first step would be better export options from DS like .FBX that actually works, LOL

    unity has to cater to the game development crowd since that is what they are and do, a game engine first and foremost.

  • mikek said:

     

    To me, if they really wanted their assets used in a game environment, the most basic first step would be better export options from DS like .FBX that actually works, LOL

     

    there allready is and more on top of that for quite sometime.

  • mikek said:

    Game development is frankly far too much coding for most DAZ Customers, but many would like to save thier scenes in webgl and such to make walkthroughs and interactive scenes.

    My impression was always they are trying to expand what customers they are reaching and try to get a piece of the cake game stores like unity have. Expanding their market is a good thing as artists here can earn more which results in more content for us. But if they make it to steep for the indy delvelopers maybe they aren't their target anymore.

    I have followed the various discussions of users wanting DAZ assets to use in their game, seen the offerings from DAZ and Morph3d and never really thought Daz was trying to target the game developer market. If anything, seeing the abuse of daz and other game assets on the web and in other games, I always thought of the licensing as more of a cover your legal and monetary butt more than anything else. To me, if they really wanted their assets used in a game environment, the most basic first step would be better export options from DS like .FBX that actually works, LOL

    unity has to cater to the game development crowd since that is what they are and do, a game engine first and foremost.

    And apparently Morph3D has shut down their store and moved all content that was there over to the Unity Store. They seem to be focusing on providing tools to create content that works like the DAZ figures that can be imported into Unity now.

  • mikek said:

     

    And apparently Morph3D has shut down their store and moved all content that was there over to the Unity Store. They seem to be focusing on providing tools to create content that works like the DAZ figures that can be imported into Unity now.

     Did they ever decide how much they were going to charge people to use the tools to make their own clothing for morph characters

  • AlienRenders

        You make great points, but I would like to answer your question: "If you just want a single item, maybe. But then, what's the point?"

    As an indie licenses holder myself I recently started moving away from buying so much stuff from daz to creating my own. Hair, outfits, props and scense can get expensive. Which is why I bought the tutorials on creating hair and outfits. No doubt I will still buy Daz products but I do not buy them in the numbers that I used to

    While what you say is valid, the reason why DAZ introduced the new licenses was to get more people to buy them. And I already said it does help in situations where there are lots of Artists on the products or would otherwise not be available for licensing. But coming back to DAZ wanting people to buy more items, you want to incentivize that. The DAZ licenses were great because you only needed to buy it once. The PA licenses OTOH needed to be bought for each game for each PA. This was the problem indicated. The new licenses fix the issue of buying one item. But the original issue still remains if you want to buy many items. So they didn't really fix anything on the PA side as far as I'm concerned.

     

  • mikekmikek Posts: 160

     

    I have followed the various discussions of users wanting DAZ assets to use in their game, seen the offerings from DAZ and Morph3d and never really thought Daz was trying to target the game developer market. If anything, seeing the abuse of daz and other game assets on the web and in other games, I always thought of the licensing as more of a cover your legal and monetary butt more than anything else. To me, if they really wanted their assets used in a game environment, the most basic first step would be better export options from DS like .FBX that actually works, LOL

    unity has to cater to the game development crowd since that is what they are and do, a game engine first and foremost.

    For me the .fbx export to unreal route has been working quite well in recent versions. There are some special cases where its a bit complicated but for normal uses there isn't much to complain from my side. Why would they have even added Morph3D and the licenses here if they wouldn't mind about game developers?

  • Maybe Daz will offer the indie license during special events. Would make a nice black friday sale item

    I wonder if PA felt that the daz license was undercutting them? Maybe this is a move by Daz to keep more artist here and creating content

    Either way this license just came out today. No doubt Daz is getting flooded with emails about the increased price point. Changes are sure to come, hopefully soon

  • jillval8jillval8 Posts: 50
    edited November 2017

    AlienRenders

        You make great points, but I would like to answer your question: "If you just want a single item, maybe. But then, what's the point?"

    As an indie licenses holder myself I recently started moving away from buying so much stuff from daz to creating my own. Hair, outfits, props and scense can get expensive. Which is why I bought the tutorials on creating hair and outfits. No doubt I will still buy Daz products but I do not buy them in the numbers that I used to

    While what you say is valid, the reason why DAZ introduced the new licenses was to get more people to buy them. And I already said it does help in situations where there are lots of Artists on the products or would otherwise not be available for licensing. But coming back to DAZ wanting people to buy more items, you want to incentivize that. The DAZ licenses were great because you only needed to buy it once. The PA licenses OTOH needed to be bought for each game for each PA. This was the problem indicated. The new licenses fix the issue of buying one item. But the original issue still remains if you want to buy many items. So they didn't really fix anything on the PA side as far as I'm concerned.

     

    well said....

    Post edited by jillval8 on
  • mikekmikek Posts: 160

     

    jillval8 said:

    I get your point, but how do you Expand your market by taking options away.???????????

     

    I don't know what their plan for this is. I can only speak for my case which is my budget has a certain limit and if they increase the price it means I have to buy less or have to look for something different. Considering that my guess was just that I'm probably not in their target group.

  • kaotkblisskaotkbliss Posts: 2,762

    Well I've not read through all 5 pages (yet) but I feel I must add in my take on this.

    Previously we had to buy a (rather expensive) license for each PA whose items we wanted to use in a game. And nearly all of them (there was a change to at least 1 PAs license that I remember) were a 1 time use meaning use could only use those assets in 1 game which means if you wanted to make a sequel or a new game, you had to buy them all over again.

    Think how expensive this would get if you were even just creating a single room to wander in. The room might be McLean's room creator, then there's the character which would be Daz (2 licenses already), a morph for the character (yet a 3rd license) clothes for the character (4 or more) items to fill the room, hair for the character... so just a single room and character could end up costing $3000+ just for 1 game, 1 room

     

    Sure, that could be brought down a bit by making sure that maybe you used all daz clothes and hair or something. But that would limit the look that maybe you originally envisioned.

    So now (like other stores) you buy a product (at a slightly higher price, or even double) but now you have that asset you can use in 1, or even a hundered or a thousand games. And the more licensed products you buy, the larger the variety your game-making inventory will be and the more you will be able to do.

    Another good part is you don't have to lay it all out at once. You can buy an item here and there as your budget allows, until you have everything you need.

  • mikekmikek Posts: 160
    edited November 2017

    Previously we had to buy a (rather expensive) license for each PA whose items we wanted to use in a game. And nearly all of them (there was a change to at least 1 PAs license that I remember) were a 1 time use meaning use could only use those assets in 1 game which means if you wanted to make a sequel or a new game, you had to buy them all over again.

    Think how expensive this would get if you were even just creating a single room to wander in. The room might be McLean's room creator, then there's the character which would be Daz (2 licenses already), a morph for the character (yet a 3rd license) clothes for the character (4 or more) items to fill the room, hair for the character... so just a single room and character could end up costing $3000+ just for 1 game, 1 room

     

    Sure, that could be brought down a bit by making sure that maybe you used all daz clothes and hair or something. But that would limit the look that maybe you originally envisioned.

    So now (like other stores) you buy a product (at a slightly higher price, or even double) but now you have that asset you can use in 1, or even a hundered or a thousand games. And the more licensed products you buy, the larger the variety your game-making inventory will be and the more you will be able to do.

    Another good part is you don't have to lay it all out at once. You can buy an item here and there as your budget allows, until you have everything you need.

    For me it would have been: Buy the Daz license for possible $200-300 (users here got it for as low as $75). Then there were about three PAs with interesting items the rest wasn't of use for me or the artist didn't offer a indie license. I probably would have bought 2 of these also as discount.  That would have allowed me freely to mix and match any of the items like take clothes from x,  char from y, hair from z, get some morphs and have something unique.
    If I take now clothes from x, char from y, hair from z I'm already at $150 for licenses alone not even having any morphs.

    The game limit wasn't an issue for me as the daz license was a good basis and the rest I can rebuy as needed. Now if after two years the game is finished and I want to move to Genesis 8 I would have to rebuy game licenses for the char, all new (same)morphs and so on. I expect for the switch alone from Genesis 7 to Genesis 8 plus having the same basis of morphs to cost a couple hundred dollar for licenses. So the switch alone would likely be more than the whole daz license was previously.

    Post edited by mikek on
  • Was it specified if the Interactive licenses are perpetual or one game only?

     

  • jillval8jillval8 Posts: 50
    edited November 2017
    mikek said:

    Previously we had to buy a (rather expensive) license for each PA whose items we wanted to use in a game. And nearly all of them (there was a change to at least 1 PAs license that I remember) were a 1 time use meaning use could only use those assets in 1 game which means if you wanted to make a sequel or a new game, you had to buy them all over again.

    Think how expensive this would get if you were even just creating a single room to wander in. The room might be McLean's room creator, then there's the character which would be Daz (2 licenses already), a morph for the character (yet a 3rd license) clothes for the character (4 or more) items to fill the room, hair for the character... so just a single room and character could end up costing $3000+ just for 1 game, 1 room

     

    Sure, that could be brought down a bit by making sure that maybe you used all daz clothes and hair or something. But that would limit the look that maybe you originally envisioned.

    So now (like other stores) you buy a product (at a slightly higher price, or even double) but now you have that asset you can use in 1, or even a hundered or a thousand games. And the more licensed products you buy, the larger the variety your game-making inventory will be and the more you will be able to do.

    Another good part is you don't have to lay it all out at once. You can buy an item here and there as your budget allows, until you have everything you need.

    For me it would have been: Buy the Daz license for possible $200-300 (users here got it for as low as $75). Then there were about three PAs with interesting items the rest wasn't of use for me or the artist didn't offer a indie license. I probably would have bought 2 of these also as discount.  That would have allowed me freely to mix match any of the items like take clothes from x,  char from y, hair from z, get some morphs and have something unique.
    If I take now clothes from x, char from y, hair from z I'm already at $150 for license alone not even having any morphs.

    The game limit wasn't an issue for me as the daz license was a good basis and the rest I can rebuy as needed. Now if after two years the game is finished and I want to move to Genesis 8 I have to rebuy game licenses for the char, all new (same)morphs and so on. I expect for the switch alone from Genesis 7 to Genesis 8 plus having the same basis of morphs will cost a couple hundres dollar license costs. So the switch alone will likely be more than the whole daz license was previously.

    I agree 100%. It's crazy to see the few people not getting this very basic concept. Even if it was $10- 25 dollars a pop of licesne for each product, it will still be unrealistic for small indies. Daz Originals/Daz3d.com was favord by many indies over other sites like renderosity for example because you were able to mix and match models, because ideas and character concepts change over time and need to be tweaked, so buying a liscense to catalog was simply better and usefull. All we want are options.

    Post edited by jillval8 on
  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 2,130

    I like the interactive license. This is -almost- exactly what I asked for quite some time, in fact it is remarkable just how much it is like what I asked for, LOL. However, I never asked for the bulk licenses to be removed. There is no reason to pull them. The purpose behind my request for individual licenses was to grant the buyer the option of just buying a few items and a license for each. Key word: OPTION. Buyers should still have the option to purchase licenses that cover Daz's and PA's catalogs. Dude, they were just on sale a couple weeks ago. And now they are gone completely? Come on.

    Its the old one foot forward, two steps back thing. Let's not do that. Bring the Indie and Commercial Licenses back. Hell, if need be, raise the price. But the way things are right now, the costs is too high for anyone who wants to buy a variety of assets for a game. Most of these licenses seem to be $50, so that adds up very quickly! So while this change made some people happy, it should be obvious it has made other people very unhappy. But it did not have to be this way! Just give us both options.

    A visual display for those who don't want to read my paragraph:

  • kaotkblisskaotkbliss Posts: 2,762

    I agree with this :) While my post only focused on the new thing, it was supposed to be more of a different needs for different people.

  • Dream CutterDream Cutter Posts: 1,221
    edited November 2017

    comment removed

    Post edited by Dream Cutter on
  • jillval8jillval8 Posts: 50
    edited November 2017

    Again, nothing in the DAZ store is game ready. It takes a lot of work to get it game ready. I'm looking at the prices and they are too high for the licenses compared to what it was before. You could often get discounts on the licenses. But now, you can pay $200+ for 4 items. And considering how many items have shaders, textures, and other stuff as separate products, that would come to a hefty price. Not really worth it. And yes, I can make my own items. It's just easier to license stuff if the price is right. I don't think it is anymore. If you just want a single item, maybe. But then, what's the point?

    t seems you are missing the significance of the IP value. You are licising someones unique art. The value of art design is subjective - but the idea that one flat rate cuts it for all is not realistic. Not all 3d content is equal in terms of quality, effort and appeal.

    The buyer should look at the product in that terms and the packaging as defined by the store.  Since the inventory of the store is a creators Intelletulal Property (IP) productization the Content Creator's package procdct offering is defined by 3 important criteria.  . A) The Design ( a combination of character, mesh shape, material choice & textures, associated items)  B:) The Exclusivity (Term, Platform, Vendor) and C) Use Criteria and Restritons. (Personal/Comercial/Platform/Location/Media Format/Source Protection).  That way a  content creators (or copyright rights stakeholder) determines the ROI by the sum of revenue for the product lifecycle in all its concurrent derrvations.  

    you're missing his whole point. Reagardless of how much you think 1 item is worth, to many indies a like, the vaule of that item is equal to zero without a license to use the whole catalog. This whole Interactive License thing is targeted towards indies else it wouldnt be there, but the truth is indies pockets don't run that deep, and people like having options.  Like someone mention eariler, even if they want to raise the price of the indie developer license, fine no one has a problem with that, we just want options.

    Post edited by jillval8 on
  • dreamfarmerdreamfarmer Posts: 2,127

    I don't have an indie license of the old form and I'm defending this! Honestly, I feel like the per-vendor license was a huge mistake. It was both too expensive-- because of the number of vendor licenses you'd have to buy to produce almost anything cool-- and not expensive enough, because it gave people an entirely inappropriate idea of how the business works.

    That said, I am sorry so many people are disappointed. I wish there was a way to have both around, but it seems somehow unfair to do so.

    (I am a little surprised at all the people who felt satisfied limiting themselves to Daz Original content, but were planning to use Daz3d exclusively as the content provoider. Really? Daz has the character stuff but they've always been kind of light on interesting complex environments.... What were you making?)

  • jillval8jillval8 Posts: 50
    edited November 2017

    I don't have an indie license of the old form and I'm defending this! Honestly, I feel like the per-vendor license was a huge mistake. It was both too expensive-- because of the number of vendor licenses you'd have to buy to produce almost anything cool-- and not expensive enough, because it gave people an entirely inappropriate idea of how the business works.

    That said, I am sorry so many people are disappointed. I wish there was a way to have both around, but it seems somehow unfair to do so.

    (I am a little surprised at all the people who felt satisfied limiting themselves to Daz Original content, but were planning to use Daz3d exclusively as the content provoider. Really? Daz has the character stuff but they've always been kind of light on interesting complex environments.... What were you making?)

    It's already been explain why this is only true for the 1 group of people that want to buy one 1 or 2 and that's it. But that's only for that one group, not for the rest of us in group 2. we know how to do math, you know. :) $500 dollar price tag is wayyy! more affordable then then the current one now, for group 2. The current license setup is not even worth it....again for group 2.

     

    "That said, I am sorry so many people are disappointed. I wish there was a way to have both around, but it seems somehow unfair to do so."

    not attacking you but I'm glad you pointed this out, because the truth is, it's not fair for everyone who miss the sale or didn't find out in time about the indie license beinig taken down, have to buy each induvival model, and have to be told by "some not all" who either got the licnese just in time, and will recieve all upcoming models from daz for free, OR by group of people who only wants to buy 1 or 2 items from the store..... "that this new setup works for all of us and this is much more affordable or better eveyone". That's not fair.  

    Post edited by jillval8 on
  • jillval8jillval8 Posts: 50
    edited November 2017

    ... double post

    Post edited by jillval8 on
  • 3DMinh3DMinh Posts: 94

    I just don't understand why we can't have both options. Just put the old license back, but this time limit the number of projects you can sell/publish with it, maybe only for 1 project (like the old license). That will be fair I think.

    If someone buy that many items from one PA, then I think that PA will happily license them for a single project at the "$500-$1000" price tag. I don't know how PAs create their models, but I think they reuse some of their work elements too, right? And I'm talking about license for "Indie", who can't afford $10000 for 200 items. For big studio/company, just charge them as much as you want.

    Again, give customers a chance to spend their money. I don't have $10000, so either take my $500 or my $0.

     

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