Tutorial Uber Area Lighting: The Basics

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  • frank0314frank0314 Posts: 10,832
    edited December 1969

    But when you look in a mirror it reflects about 4 times before it is unnoticeable so the rest is a waste

  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 2,388
    edited March 2014

    Frank0314 said:
    But when you look in a mirror it reflects about 4 times before it is unnoticeable so the rest is a waste
    That depends upon the size of the reflective surfaces in question.I know when I've done "tests" like that with real mirrors, I've noticed more than 4 reflections within reflections; a lot more; especially with larger surfaces. And, it is because of the larger reflective surfaces that a Max raytrace depth of 8 was recommended to me.
    Post edited by Tramp Graphics on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    I have seen folks recommend things and PA's setting up light settings when they don't really understanding what they are doing. Frank and I are not saying don't use 8 or more but as Frank said there is a limit to what will be noticeable and after 5 years I have learnt 4 for the most part will do. Going higher gives diminishing results for the length of render times. It is a balance. But who are we to tell you what to do we can only advise, take it for what it is, it is your choice.

  • AJ2112AJ2112 Posts: 1,416
    edited December 1969

    Pete, what's going on friend. Wow ! I've made a few amazing discoveries since I began Daz again. Lighting was seriously confusing me, so I began to take my lighting lessons step by step (tedious), but learning. What I was doing previously was adding/moving lights around all over the scene, sometimes adding up to 10 lights !! YIKES ! Lol ! Renders looked horrible. More lighting = ugly, Lol ! Then I made a wonderful discovery, the surface editor. Using various primitives in a scene, I was surprised how light changed on surface, adjusting surface settings, then I went on to experiment with figures/props. I experiment with each light, observing what the light surfaces were doing, as I changed surface settings.

    Then I began Uber2 with distant light, which is marvelous. Printed the Uber help info. UberE2 takes forever ! to render. Questions >

    1. What's the difference between Uber Area light and UberE2 ? I notice Uber2 illuminates an entire scene. Still learning Uber area light.
    2. What is HDR converter ? When I click on it, dialog box opens ?

    Next > Luxrender is awesome to ! I would set up scene, add Spheric lights/render. An hour later, scene looks great, cept lighting is to freakin bright. Prop looks great, but character surface illuminates (glows). I cannot find any decent beginners tutorial on Luxus setting adjustments. I like Lux, cause I can render and do other things on the computer at the same time dual monitors.

  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 2,388
    edited December 1969

    OK, here is the latest test render. I started rendering this on the 22nd and it just finished, so it doesn't implement any of the advice I got since. In this one I set the Multiply Specular through Opacity to Off as suggested, and changed all of the Linear Point Lights to 255 255 255 white, but did not change their intensities. That will be a part of my next test. Changing the color of the lights, and the Multiply Specular through Opacity settings did brighten things up, but not enough. I'm going to try setting the headlight's Spot light intensity to 500%, an the Linear Point lights on the turn signals and tail lights to 200%. I'm also setting the ambient on the lenses to their Diffuse colors at 10% instead of black at 5%, to see what happens.

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  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    awesomefb said:
    Pete, what's going on friend. Wow ! I've made a few amazing discoveries since I began Daz again. Lighting was seriously confusing me, so I began to take my lighting lessons step by step (tedious), but learning. What I was doing previously was adding/moving lights around all over the scene, sometimes adding up to 10 lights !! YIKES ! Lol ! Renders looked horrible. More lighting = ugly, Lol ! Then I made a wonderful discovery, the surface editor. Using various primitives in a scene, I was surprised how light changed on surface, adjusting surface settings, then I went on to experiment with figures/props. I experiment with each light, observing what the light surfaces were doing, as I changed surface settings.

    Then I began Uber2 with distant light, which is marvelous. Printed the Uber help info. UberE2 takes forever ! to render. Questions >

    1. What's the difference between Uber Area light and UberE2 ? I notice Uber2 illuminates an entire scene. Still learning Uber area light.
    2. What is HDR converter ? When I click on it, dialog box opens ?

    Next > Luxrender is awesome to ! I would set up scene, add Spheric lights/render. An hour later, scene looks great, cept lighting is to freakin bright. Prop looks great, but character surface illuminates (glows). I cannot find any decent beginners tutorial on Luxus setting adjustments. I like Lux, cause I can render and do other things on the computer at the same time dual monitors.

    What's going on...not much. LOL

    UE2 is an Environment light whether it be outdoor or indoor and yes it illuminates spherically inward just like AoA's Ambient Light except UE2 uses maps (HDRI) to illuminate a scene. And yes it does take a while to render especially transmapped surfaces like Hair. This can negated a little by using Uber Surfaces on the transmapped surfaces setting Occlusion from Global to Override and setting the samples to 16.

    Area Lights are manly lights like Spots and Points though you can used an inverted Sphere and use a Skydome map with Area Light base applied to the sphere. It gives a really soft light. Same thing with an Inverted Square. We used to be able to just negative scale effectively turning the primitive inside out making the normal face inward but DS/3Delight doesn't allow that now. Instead we used to Polygon Editor Tool to reverse the Normals.

    Yes Surfaces are a major part of the equation, thought some will disagree. Personally IMHO I think a third of an image is composition, a third surfaces and lastly the lighting. Get anyone of those 3 wrong and the image fails.

    HDR convertor is to convert HDRI to TIFF but now DS/UE2 can read HDRI without conversion.

    LUX I have Luxus and used it a couple of times but I don't like it for many reasons so I am not the best person to ask. I am finding DS more fun these days.

  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 2,388
    edited December 1969

    OK, I'm in the middle of my current test render, so I can't post it yet, but I am seeing the headlight and front turn signals, and changing the ambient color has helped some, though still not quite enough. I went back a couple of pages in the thread to check my other settings and double-checked my reflection settings. The Reflection settings are set at only 25%. Could that be a factor in the lenses not brightening up as much as I like when the lights shine through them, and if so, how high should I bump up the reflection settings on the lenses?

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited March 2014

    Did you apply uber surfaces like I suggested and use Translucency and yes up the reflection a bit more...say 60% though that won't help with the light shining.

    Post edited by Szark on
  • AJ2112AJ2112 Posts: 1,416
    edited December 1969

    Hi Pete, not creating any new fascinating 3D ? I've been working through your tutorials. Thanx for easy explaination/illustrations. Thanx for UE2 info. I need a new system for UE2, I am very impressed with UE2 renders. I'll try to get some images up soon. Till then I'll experiment with surfaces. I'm sure I'll have more questions in the future. I hardly know anything about Lux, but with default light settings Lux produces nice renders, but for now I'll stick to 3Delight. Keep up the amazing renders friend :-)

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    Thank you. I am glad you have found the info useful.

    As for renders well I am finally working on my entry to this year's bird contest.

  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 2,388
    edited March 2014

    Szark said:
    Did you apply uber surfaces like I suggested and use Translucency and yes up the reflection a bit more...say 60% though that won't help with the light shining.
    No uber surfaces were set to them in this render. I started it well before you even suggested it. I don't even know what "Uber-Surface" is. I know Uber Area Light, but not "Uber Surface". Now, is the opacity of the lenses too low?. It's set at 15% currently. Here's the latest test render. I added more area lights to the tough pad and monitor, in his handlebars, and to the Camaro's head lights and tail lights (but forgot to add the textures to the Ambient and Color settings, I'm fixing that for the next test).

    I've been trying to add volumetrics to the scene using the AoA Atmospheric Cameras Volumetric Camera to get the "light cone" from the headlight, and aura around the turn signals and tail lights, but always get a washed out scene when I do, and it was killing my render times.

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    Post edited by Tramp Graphics on
  • srieschsriesch Posts: 4,220
    edited December 1969

    I don't even know what "Uber-Surface" is.
    ....
    I've been trying to add volumetrics to the scene using the AoA Atmospheric Cameras Volumetric Camera to get the "light cone" from the headlight, and aura around the turn signals and tail lights, but always get a washed out scene when I do, and it was killing my render times.

    In the Content Library pane's search field, search for "!UberSurface Base.duf", and for "!UberSurface help.dsa".

    For the aura, you could fake it; make a transparency map in photoshop and apply it as opacity to a primitive plane with a diffuse color that you want in the aura, and stick it in front of the headlight. Probably not the best way to do it, and it won't work from more than one angle, but perhaps very simple and easy to do. Just a black-and-white gradient. Here's one I made to slap around the moon, but you could make one (or modify this one) shaped for your headlight.

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  • AJ2112AJ2112 Posts: 1,416
    edited December 1969

    Your bird renders are fabulous ! Good luck Pete :-)

    Szark said:
    As for renders well I am finally working on my entry to this year's bird contest.
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    Thanks awesomefb

    Opacity for my test was at about 80%. What Uber Surface gives you is Translucency (to be used for single mesh thickness objects) which lets light through as I showed. Use this http://takeokensei.deviantart.com/art/Ubersurface-1-upgrade-preset-405080407 preset to apply Uber Surface keeping your original maps and settings. All you need to do is turn Bump ON is any bump maps are present and set up Translucency.

  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 2,388
    edited March 2014

    Szark said:
    Thanks awesomefb

    Opacity for my test was at about 80%. What Uber Surface gives you is Translucency (to be used for single mesh thickness objects) which lets light through as I showed. Use this http://takeokensei.deviantart.com/art/Ubersurface-1-upgrade-preset-405080407 preset to apply Uber Surface keeping your original maps and settings. All you need to do is turn Bump ON is any bump maps are present and set up Translucency.

    OK. Makes sense, though, it would seem the Uber Surface only really comes in handy if you're using mapped textures on the mesh. The glass shaders I'm using are purely procedural shaders. There are no textures nor bump or displacement maps used on them at all. Doesn't simply having a low opacity on a "regular" surface also let light through? I really don't see why I'd need the "Uber Surface". Is it a matter of needing a high visual opacity and only letting light through, without seeing through it? This is the latest test. The lenses are definitely brighter, much more so than they have been, and I fixed the other area lights I added to the car and such, but the environmental lighting hasn't been gong well and I haven't been able to get the volumetric camera to render without washing everything out.
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    Post edited by Tramp Graphics on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    Like I said my test had opacity at 80% and light still shines through without losing detail as I would when Opacity is lower. this is down to Uber Surface Translucency

    Texture maps or just a plain colour, it makes no difference. The difference is how the light reacts with the glass making it do what you want.

    . I have offered the advice known to me at this time and you seem to be disregarding it so the only thing I can suggest is that you should seriously consider testing it with one aspect of this scene inside DS so you quickly gets an understanding on what I am trying to get through to you. Or even test is on something else inside DS

  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 2,388
    edited March 2014

    Szark said:
    Like I said my test had opacity at 80% and light still shines through without losing detail as I would when Opacity is lower. this is down to Uber Surface Translucency

    Texture maps or just a plain colour, it makes no difference. The difference is how the light reacts with the glass making it do what you want.

    . I have offered the advice known to me at this time and you seem to be disregarding it so the only thing I can suggest is that you should seriously consider testing it with one aspect of this scene inside DS so you quickly gets an understanding on what I am trying to get through to you. Or even test is on something else inside DS

    Not disregarding, just clarifying, because all of your suggestions relied on a surface with detailed texture maps applied, details which, as you said, can disappear when reducing opacity lower than 80%. By contrast, I'm working with a featureless surface using a set of procedural shaders which don't use any texture or bump maps, and are already at a much lower opacity. Thus, there are no "details" to lose from a low opacity setting. My problem hasn't been getting the light to pass through, but rather, getting it to illuminate the glass while passing through. I was hoping you'd test out the shaders I'm working with and see what options I have using and/or manipulating these shaders.

    Correct me if I'm wrong here, but If I applied an uber surface, I'll lose the glass shaders already applied because they're procedural shader presets not texture or bump maps. That's why I asked if the opacity had to be set higher or not. Does the opacity setting affect how the light makes the mesh brighten or "glow" or does it just affect how much light passes through, and how see-through the surface is?

    Since they're preset at only 15% opacity, the shaders I'm working with make for almost perfectly transparent glass, which is used on a lot of today's cars and bikes, particularly the ones that use "LED" style and halogen lights. The question is: is 15% opacity too low to catch and magnify the light and thus "glow", as opposed to letting the light just pass through? Do I absolutely need a high opacity with a separate translucency setting—given the featureless and intentionally transparent glass surface,—because I only have a single layer mesh surface? Does completely transparent glass need to be a double-layer of mesh (with the inner layer more "textured" through displacement or geometry), for it "glow" when light passes through it?

    EDIT:

    Another question. The mirrored housings for the headlight, tail light and turn signal lights have a reflection setting of 90% with a refraction setting of 0%. Could this be a factor in the lights not appearing to be as brightly glowing as they "should"? Do the housings need some refraction added?

    Post edited by Tramp Graphics on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    1: Those shaders you are using are just plain old Daz Studio default surfaces so realism is far from reach, I know these shader well and never use them now. It really doesn't matter if the have texture maps or not the principle is exactly the same/

    2: Opacity doesn't have any part to play with Glow, just how much light passes through. If you want Glow use Ambient.

    3: In the real world the material glass or plastic have certain properties that absorb and refract light, this we have to use many channels in 3delight to achieve, thickness just helps with refraction. This is not the case for Octane or Lux as you can define the material between the thickness.

    this is way I say open a new scene and load a vehicle prop and test it all out in DS first. Get an understanding of what to do, instead of waiting hours and hours to see the result. Or let me know what these vehicles are and I will see if I have them and test them myself/

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    You could add some reflection strength to the inner parts of the lights, it might reinforce the illusion. As that is the key thing in 3delight it is all an illusion.

  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 2,388
    edited April 2014

    Szark said:
    1: Those shaders you are using are just plain old Daz Studio default surfaces so realism is far from reach, I know these shader well and never use them now. It really doesn't matter if the have texture maps or not the principle is exactly the same/

    2: Opacity doesn't have any part to play with Glow, just how much light passes through. If you want Glow use Ambient.

    3: In the real world the material glass or plastic have certain properties that absorb and refract light, this we have to use many channels in 3delight to achieve, thickness just helps with refraction. This is not the case for Octane or Lux as you can define the material between the thickness.

    this is way I say open a new scene and load a vehicle prop and test it all out in DS first. Get an understanding of what to do, instead of waiting hours and hours to see the result. Or let me know what these vehicles are and I will see if I have them and test them myself/The bike is a custom made bike I just finished modelling in Hexagon last month (and still isn't rigged yet, as I have no clue how to rig a vehicle, especially one with such a complex steering and suspension system), so it is not available for distribution. And it's the lights on the bike which I'm trying to get right. The car I'm using is fine as is. That's not a problem. It's just the bike. Basically, I'm doing various test renders of the bike, with its primary rider (my character, Marc Helrich) to test out the mesh, and shaders I'll be using on it, and see what needs to be changed to the mesh, before trying to rig it or have someone rig it for me. This pic, aside from me wanting to do a piece with Marc riding the bike, is also a test of the lights to see how realistically I can get them to light up. The problem is they're not "glowing" they way the sample photos I linked to earlier do, whether it's because of the lenses or the reflective housings (or both). When I look at real headlights (or even flashlights), the reflective surface of the internal housing catches all of the light, and really brightens it up, becoming flooded with light before directing it out in a beam. The housings in the bike's lights is not doing that. They're just showing a distorted reflection of the bulbs. The lenses in real lights too, enhance the light coming out of them. Depending upon the angle, and how bright the light, though, you'll still see the bulb itself glowing brightly. I'm not sure if the lenses of my bike are doing that or not. Thus, I'm beginning to wonder whether the problem is with the lenses or with the housing. For the record, I'm using the Chrome Shaders from the Ultimate Shader Pack (with the reflection maps removed) for the reflective housing.

    You could add some reflection strength to the inner parts of the lights, it might reinforce the illusion. As that is the key thing in 3delight it is all an illusion.

    The reflection setting for the housings is set at 90% already, so it's already highly reflective. I could bump it up to 100%, but I'm not sure how much more that would help. That's why I asked if adding some refraction might help. As it stands, they have no refraction.

    For the record, these are the relevant settings for the reflective housings:

    Diffuse Color: 0 0 0
    Diffuse Strength: 100%
    Glossiness: 80%
    Specular Color: 216 216 216
    Specular Strength: 100%
    Multiply Specular through Opacity: ON
    Ambient Color: 0 0 0
    Ambient Strength: 100%
    Opacity Strength: 100%
    Reflection Color: 255 255 255
    Reflection Strength: 90%
    Refraction Color: 255 255 255
    Refraction Strength: 0%
    Lighting Model: Plastic

    Post edited by Tramp Graphics on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    Again those Chrome shaders are just DS default surfaces so again you won't get very realistic results but since they are behind the menses it shouldn't matter.


    Can you send me the head light of the bike as a single OBJ with mats zones and I will see what I can come up with. If you won't to do this then send me a PM and I will send you my mail addy.

    Opacity of clear glass yes 15-5% is fine. Diffuse strength can be as low as 5 to 10% but yes getting what you are after is difficult as best but should be achievable.

  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 2,388
    edited April 2014

    Szark said:
    Again those Chrome shaders are just DS default surfaces so again you won't get very realistic results but since they are behind the menses it shouldn't matter.


    Can you send me the head light of the bike as a single OBJ with mats zones and I will see what I can come up with. If you won't to do this then send me a PM and I will send you my mail addy.

    Opacity of clear glass yes 15-5% is fine. Diffuse strength can be as low as 5 to 10% but yes getting what you are after is difficult as best but should be achievable.

    I'd have to send the whole bike, since the lenses are part of the front and rear fairings, not a part of the light housings. That might be one of the things that needs to be changed, I'm not sure. The bike is a proprietary design for my comic and will not be available for distribution, but I'd be willing to send it to you for beta test purposes, just PM me your email.

    As for the chrome shaders, I love the results they give on all of my reflective surfaces, and use them constantly for any chromed surface I need, such as the attached image below. All of the chrome on that truck is from the Ultimate Chader Pack. The paint job is from the Super Shine Shader Pack. I use a lot of procedural shaders.

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  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    You am I to argue if you are happy using standard DS default surfaces then cool. I and many other find them too limiting. One thing about metals it that many reflections on many metal surfaces are blurred which the DS defaults cannot do with using reflection strength maps. Uber Surfaces can do blurred reflections, meaning the further away an object is the blurrier the reflection is.

  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 2,388
    edited April 2014

    Szark said:
    You am I to argue if you are happy using standard DS default surfaces then cool. I and many other find them too limiting. One thing about metals it that many reflections on many metal surfaces are blurred which the DS defaults cannot do with using reflection strength maps. Uber Surfaces can do blurred reflections, meaning the further away an object is the blurrier the reflection is.
    OK, I see where you're going. You don't like the shaders I'm using because they're not Uber Surface shader presets, not because they're procedural shaders. Am I correct?

    The only "Uber surfaces" I've ever tried (if they are Uber Surfaces) were the EHSS mats for the Ryuu International set for Genesis. I hated them. They made the skin glow orange whenever I rendered them. The Uber Area lights I'm trying on the bike are the first time trying them.

    As for the shader presets I use; They were free (which is helpful for the monthly freebie challenges here), they're easy to use, I can apply them to surfaces that have different material zones even if they're not UV mapped (No mapped textures needed), and I really don't make my own shader presets, so I use what I have. Besides, I'm not looking for 100% photo realism; I'm looking for "comic book" or "anime" realism. I just want the lights to look right when they're both on and off, preferably by simply turning the light source in the light bulbs (be they uber area lights or spot lights and linear pin lights, or combination of all of them) on or off without having to change settings on the surfaces every time.

    Post edited by Tramp Graphics on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    No I don't like using the DS default surfaces which all your shaders are because there are limiting in realism. I am not bothered if there are texture are procedural based but what the shader can do.

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/18364/P180/#568134 notice how the reflections are slightly blurred, that is Uber Surface at play. In that image there is no Specular at all. All the highlights come from the reflection which is what happens in reality.

    HSS is just a cut down version of Uber Surface so I never used it. I do prefer Uber Surface 2 (shop product) as it can do dual layers and LIE on both layers making it one hell of a shader.

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    Yes those shaders are perfect for what you want then.

  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 2,388
    edited April 2014

    Szark said:
    No I don't like using the DS default surfaces which all your shaders are because there are limiting in realism. I am not bothered if there are texture are procedural based but what the shader can do.

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/18364/P180/#568134 notice how the reflections are slightly blurred, that is Uber Surface at play. In that image there is no Specular at all. All the highlights come from the reflection which is what happens in reality.

    HSS is just a cut down version of Uber Surface so I never used it. I do prefer Uber Surface 2 (shop product) as it can do dual layers and LIE on both layers making it one hell of a shader.

    OK. That makes more sense. As far as I know though, there are no freebie Uber Surface alternatives to the shaders I use for my projects which, aside from the ones I've already mentioned, include the World Of Satin shaders resource kits, R72 Velvet shaders and Leather shaders, REC Weaponry Shaders (mostly for the rubber surface shader), Fuzzy Wuzzy Fur shaders, Wilmaps various fabricator shaders, and a handful of others. None of them, to my knowledge are Uber Surface shaders. And, for the record, I don't have UE2. I did manage to find a Illuminated lamp shader set that uses Uber Surface and Uber Area Lights though.
    Post edited by Tramp Graphics on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    LOL did you not see my post about applying Uber Surfaces to DS defaults http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/14536/P330/#577083 on the page back. You have all the bases settings already with those listed shaders (apart form LIE ones) and if you use that linked to preset then you will retain all those base settings at the same time giving you my functions. You really should delve into the Surfaces Pane more and do more yourself. Always relying on presets can be very limiting IMHO.

    UE2? You mean US2 but yeah I was just saying for me I prefer US2 but I have been using US that comes with DS more to get a better understanding so I can make an in-depth tut.

  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 2,388
    edited December 1969

    Szark said:
    LOL did you not see my post about applying Uber Surfaces to DS defaults http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/14536/P330/#577083 on the page back. You have all the bases settings already with those listed shaders (apart form LIE ones) and if you use that linked to preset then you will retain all those base settings at the same time giving you my functions. You really should delve into the Surfaces Pane more and do more yourself. Always relying on presets can be very limiting IMHO.

    UE2? You mean US2 but yeah I was just saying for me I prefer US2 but I have been using US that comes with DS more to get a better understanding so I can make an in-depth tut.

    No, I didn't see that. Not sure how it works either. Looks interesting though, And I just downloaded it. As for delving into the surfaces tab, I do that all the time because you have to to apply the shaders I use. A also tweak them as needed (mainly to remove reflection maps, which I don't use), or to adjust the color, bump or displacement, if necessary.

    Like I said before, though, if you want a copy of the bike model for beta testing, that's fine (it's not rigged, given I don't know how to rig vehicles, only triax weight mapped clothes, and even then only to a limited degree). Send me a PM, and I'll email it to you.

  • AJ2112AJ2112 Posts: 1,416
    edited December 1969

    Pete your awake ! How's it going friend. Last year, I found a tutorial you did on transparency mats, cannot find it again !!! Should have bookmarked. Believe it was either a cube or a playing card. Could you provide a link ? thanx :-)

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