It's Not Raining Men

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Comments

  • TimbalesTimbales Posts: 1,746

    The diminshing amount of product for male figures is the main reason I did not renew my Platinum Club subscription. 

    I think Genesis and the auto-follow features made it easier for content creators to make things that are more suited to women - snug clothing more fitted to the body and skimpwear. 

  • NovicaNovica Posts: 23,288
    Mattymanx said:

    Q. - Why dont PAs make as many male items as they do female items?

    A. - Because the customer wont buy them!

     

    Its been hashed over a thousand times and the answer is still the same.  Customers have spoken with their $$$ that they would rather buy female items over male items.  While some male items still get made, the return on them tends to be lower then if it was for a female.

     

    No offense, but we've hashed back over a thousand times, that if people make garbage like painted on pants, we won't buy it. Simply because it was made and didn't sell, wasn't necessarily because it was for men. It was often because the pants were painted on with very few wrinkles, the shirt seams were bulgy or stuck out (remembering some very awkward square shoulders sticking up), or the shirt was plain- no pockets. And with all that, the price was SKY ROCKETING HIGH for the little that we got when compared to the female counterpart that also had necklaces, earrings, stockings, etc! If you are only offering shirt and pants and shoes, look at the female outfits that only have that, and price them the SAME.  I'm so sick and tired of the argument that stuff doesn't sell because it's male- it doesn't sell due to pricing and quality too! There's more to situation than "It's for the males." 

    I bought the raincoat recently, even though heaven knows when I'll use it. But it was for men, it was decently made, and I support the vendors who make quality mens wear. 

    Someone beat me to it- go grab some of Wilmap's stuff and donate- and ask her to make more for men. 

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,924
    edited October 2015

    I'm using real life to refer to the type of clothing styles to explain the misperception that there's a dearth of male items. Take a look at swimsuits. The men's are pretty much the same shorts while women's have the one-piece, bikini, skirted-bottom, bandeau etc,. As the items in the store, you may not wear an ultra skympy outfit or naughty schoolgirl uniform in real life but that's just a matter of taste. Or in some cases, profession.

    Men's swimstyles actually have just as much variety as ladies. The differences are subtle, but there. Check out some male focused men's clothing catalogs. And men as well as women wear naughty clothing.   In general the naughty clothing sold here is sort of gravity defying. This is why it is fantasy. No much of this would stay on without a lot of help and tape. Lots of tape.

    In general though, I agree and support most of what you say. But the arguement dea that 3d men should have less content because real world men have less, just doesn't resonate with me. 

     

    Post edited by Serene Night on
  • TheKDTheKD Posts: 2,597
    edited October 2015

    It would help if the people that dabbled in men's clothing as a test, didn't do it halfassed. I seen a some vendors make some crappy male clothes, then get mad when it didn't sell as well as their female clothes, that contained 13892473928 morphs(open type morphs), while the male clothes contained none at all, but was priced around the same. 

    The only clothes I used to buy, was clothes that had lots of those movement morphs, I stopped buying clothes long ago. Sick of the shrinkwrapped look and learned to make my own clothes, and simulate the folds lol. All I buy now really is good morphs and nicely made sets. 

    Post edited by TheKD on
  • DarkSpartanDarkSpartan Posts: 1,095

    I'm using real life to refer to the type of clothing styles to explain the misperception that there's a dearth of male items. Take a look at swimsuits. The men's are pretty much the same shorts while women's have the one-piece, bikini, skirted-bottom, bandeau etc,. As the items in the store, you may not wear an ultra skympy outfit or naughty schoolgirl uniform in real life but that's just a matter of taste. Or in some cases, profession.

    Men's swimstyles actually have just as much variety as ladies. The differences are subtle, but there. Check out some male focused men's clothing catalogs. And men as well as women wear naughty clothing.   In general the naughty clothing sold here is sort of gravity defying. This is why it is fantasy. No much of this would stay on without a lot of help and tape. Lots of tape.

    In general though, I agree and support most of what you say. But the arguement dea that 3d men should have less content because real world men have less, just doesn't resonate with me. 

     

    Note to self: Make sure there's a fair variety of men's stuff to go with the male characters. Leastaways more than just a Gakuren and combat uniforms.

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,924

    I'm using real life to refer to the type of clothing styles to explain the misperception that there's a dearth of male items. Take a look at swimsuits. The men's are pretty much the same shorts while women's have the one-piece, bikini, skirted-bottom, bandeau etc,. As the items in the store, you may not wear an ultra skympy outfit or naughty schoolgirl uniform in real life but that's just a matter of taste. Or in some cases, profession.

    Men's swimstyles actually have just as much variety as ladies. The differences are subtle, but there. Check out some male focused men's clothing catalogs. And men as well as women wear naughty clothing.   In general the naughty clothing sold here is sort of gravity defying. This is why it is fantasy. No much of this would stay on without a lot of help and tape. Lots of tape.

    In general though, I agree and support most of what you say. But the arguement dea that 3d men should have less content because real world men have less, just doesn't resonate with me. 

     

    Note to self: Make sure there's a fair variety of men's stuff to go with the male characters. Leastaways more than just a Gakuren and combat uniforms.

    if your guys are adults I will buy them and their clothing! I'm not much into the school/teen stuff  :-)

     

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001

    Note to self: Make sure there's a fair variety of men's stuff to go with the male characters. Leastaways more than just a Gakuren and combat uniforms.

    But don't neglect the combat uniforms...

  • up4up4 Posts: 8
    edited October 2015

    Go see Blur's latest demo reel. How many females ? Four. How many males ? Hundreds. These guys make the best game cinematics in the industry. They made the opening sequence for Fincher's Girl with the Dragon Tatoo. Tim Miller, the studio co-founder is directing, as his first feature, Deadpool, the queerest superhero ever.

    The "male don't sell" argument sounds a lot like anachronic straight-guy corporate culture. It sounds like successful male content is embarrassing. At any rate, even if you think it is the current state of this market (which I doubt), it is obviously not its future. There will be (there already are) hyperealistic males, modeled, rigged and skinned available for sale. They are just not GenesisXM-based. And they are not available on the DAZ shop. I hope DAZ revisits its pre-cosplay, pre-brony, pre-Deadpool, pre-Skyfall gender bias. For its own sake. Maybe having some of the most appreciated male content PAs involved in the artistic direction for the Michael 7 product launch (or even leading it) could avoid death by drowning in a tsunami of cheap underage lolita swimwear on that day.

    Post edited by up4 on
  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,924

    Cool demo reel! I like that. It would be great if PA's of successful men's content were consulted about the release of gen 3 male.Good suggestion. 

    LOL, about the swimwear. =-)

  • StonemasonStonemason Posts: 1,040

     

    I think (and Uzilite is a great example of this) that if you present your outfits to look pretty damn cool then you should have no trouble getting equal sales from both female and male outfits,it's a very vague idea I know.but it's what drives sales and it is what DAZ are asking for.it's all in the presentation.

    and being original is also very important,we do see alot of the same type of stuff being released endlessly so when something unique comes along people generally grab it..and if you can't be original then at least be exceptional,

    I've done outfits for male and female and from what I recall they both sold as good as each other,I haven't really done enough to have developed a preference for one over the other,

    interestingly Luthbel and Uzilite were the two pa's who set the bar I was trying to reach...aim for the stars and all that :)

  • Seems like most people agree. The variety of male items are extremely limited, mostly the quality of male items are sub-standard to those of the female items and they seem mostly over-priced fr what you are getting. These reasons are also why male items sell less than female items. If they were of a better quality and had more variety, people would buy more.

    Also, DAZ can do more to promote male items. Every sale they have on usually has a big banner with boobs and *ss, and 99% of the items on sale are for female characters. I doubt the arrival of G3M would change anything, unless the people in charge get their heads out of their butts and actually do something about it. Start an incentive program for content creators to make more male items, to be more creative with the items they make. 

    Even the fashion industry have changed over the last few years, realising there was a huge discrapancy between male and female fashion. Why not in the 3D universe as well?

    Create something outlandish for male figures, look at mens' fashion shows, incorporate that into products, challenge yourself with something else, other than the rut most people seem to be stuck in.

    Build it (and build it well) and they will come.

    Thank you Stonemason, SickleYield and Uzilite for your comments. 

  • DarkSpartanDarkSpartan Posts: 1,095
    edited October 2015
    mjc1016 said:

    Note to self: Make sure there's a fair variety of men's stuff to go with the male characters. Leastaways more than just a Gakuren and combat uniforms.

    But don't neglect the combat uniforms...

    Not for a minute would I do that. I spent way too much time in the suck to skimp on those.

    For the record, the entire set is actually interconnected by a single narrative thread (well, prior to Death of the Author), and as such there are some types of things that will wind up appearing regardless. Combat uniforms are on the list, same with PT gear, classroom uniforms, and a smattering of civilian clothing.

    I'm using real life to refer to the type of clothing styles to explain the misperception that there's a dearth of male items. Take a look at swimsuits. The men's are pretty much the same shorts while women's have the one-piece, bikini, skirted-bottom, bandeau etc,. As the items in the store, you may not wear an ultra skympy outfit or naughty schoolgirl uniform in real life but that's just a matter of taste. Or in some cases, profession.

    Men's swimstyles actually have just as much variety as ladies. The differences are subtle, but there. Check out some male focused men's clothing catalogs. And men as well as women wear naughty clothing.   In general the naughty clothing sold here is sort of gravity defying. This is why it is fantasy. No much of this would stay on without a lot of help and tape. Lots of tape.

    In general though, I agree and support most of what you say. But the arguement dea that 3d men should have less content because real world men have less, just doesn't resonate with me. 

     

    Note to self: Make sure there's a fair variety of men's stuff to go with the male characters. Leastaways more than just a Gakuren and combat uniforms.

    if your guys are adults I will buy them and their clothing! I'm not much into the school/teen stuff  :-)

     


    Some are going to seem more adult than others-- ages on all the characters regardless of gender is 18-26. Down the line, I may make some aging morphs for them as well. What's more likely to get a pile of squee is that there are a large number of body and ethnic types represented, not just a bunch of pasty white dudes.

    So no worries, SN, your'e covered. A military Academy wouldn't take Brody or Jayden... Yet.

    Alex, Masamune, Darren, Hunter, Junpei, Guillarme, Yoshio, Aldus, Robert, Jinjiro, Takahiro and more did.

    Post edited by DarkSpartan on
  • DarkSpartanDarkSpartan Posts: 1,095

     

    I think (and Uzilite is a great example of this) that if you present your outfits to look pretty damn cool then you should have no trouble getting equal sales from both female and male outfits,it's a very vague idea I know.but it's what drives sales and it is what DAZ are asking for.it's all in the presentation.

    and being original is also very important,we do see alot of the same type of stuff being released endlessly so when something unique comes along people generally grab it..and if you can't be original then at least be exceptional,

    I've done outfits for male and female and from what I recall they both sold as good as each other,I haven't really done enough to have developed a preference for one over the other,

    interestingly Luthbel and Uzilite were the two pa's who set the bar I was trying to reach...aim for the stars and all that :)

    Any chance of an update to the Rogue Sci-Fi suit? At least for G3F... Even if G2F's suit does fit, a second transfer to G3M might not go as well.

  • All of this untapped potential, but, HEY! We need more strappy sandals for the girls, more underwear for the girls, more swimwear for the girls, more flappy pieces of fabric fo te girls (and then call it a dress, hmph).

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  • Actually Stonemason did make the rogue Sci-fi bodysuit.  He also has made some excellent jeans and shoes.I think under his handle Streetwear?

    The rogue suit is excellent quality, and he has promised a male version at some point.

    But Uzilite's points were excellent. I agree 100%

    Agreed also!  Perhaps we need a "Male Only" contest?

  • Agreed also!  Perhaps we need a "Male Only" contest?

    Agreed!

    I work 16 to 20 hour days, weekends included. When I want to do a scene, I want to be able to go to the DAZ store, buy the item I need and do the scene. I don't have time to learn how to make my own items.

    If anyone from DAZ is actually reading this thread, I'd LOVE to hear their input.

  • SloshSlosh Posts: 2,388

    All of this untapped potential, but, HEY! We need more strappy sandals for the girls, more underwear for the girls, more swimwear for the girls, more flappy pieces of fabric fo te girls (and then call it a dress, hmph).

    I get what you are doing by showing these examples, and I know I'm going to get trampled for saying this, BUT... If male clothing already sells less than female clothing (and I didn't say "it doesn't sell", just that it sells less), then some of these examples will sell even less because they are extreme and niche.  If I could make one of these outfits in a day or two, maybe three, I would "take a chance" on them, but sadly even simple clothes can take a week or more and I wouldn't spend a week making something that sells 10% of 30%, if you understand what I mean.  That's not to say these examples aren't super cool... I would enjoy rendering a scene with some of them.  I just can't justify my time for something that will sell less than even the average male outfit.  Please don't beat me up for saying this 

    indecision

  • gerterasmusgerterasmus Posts: 286
    edited October 2015

    .

    Post edited by gerterasmus on
  • Just checking on the MUST HAVE ITEMS 50% OFF sale. 22 Items on sale, and only ONE male specific item in there, at #20. DAZ really need to up their game and promote male and female items equally.

    It's not just up to the content creators.

  • Fast Grab - 6 out of 8 items are female only.

    PC+ Catch-Up sale - only 4 G2M specific items out of 190.

    Front page of the store - 0 male items out of 60.

    I male items don't sell, it's because absolutely NOTHING is done to promote them properly. If it's not an over-sexualised female character with boobs sticking out, DAZ does nothing to promote it.

     

  • lxlx Posts: 2,996
    mrposer said:
    I understand what you're saying. The really sad thing, though, is that 3D artists seem to be in it only for the money, whch makes me ask the question: Do they have any artistic integrity, or are they just on auto-pilot making what the masses want? No offence.

    Artists can make whatever they want. In this case, though, if it is their business, they need to make the best use of their time per dollar earned that they think they can. That is not throwing away their integrity. Nor is it sexual discrimination. So many offensive accusations and demands of others to do what you want.

    If you want the items so badly and no one is making them, make them yourself. Use your passion to create something really cool that you love, and then either keep it to yourself or share or sell it. 

  • FishtalesFishtales Posts: 5,469

    I don't like percentages as they seldom tell the true story.

    Put 100 female and 100 male items up for sale. 80 female items sell and only 20 male so of the sold items 80% were female and 20% were male.

    Put 20 female items up and 80 male items. All 20 female items sell and only 20 male items.  So 100% of the female items sold but only 25% of the male items but they were both 50% of the total sales.

    If there are more of one item for sale than there are of the other it stands to reason that that one will outsell the other.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,220
    Slosh said:

    I think many of you will be happy to know that my recent work (unreleased, sorry) has been focused on the male figure.  Of course, that is because we are getting things ready for the Genesis 3 Male, so my work has been for him.  But, just so you know what is coming from me, I have Genesis 2 Male Legacies, which include Michael 6, Darius, Lee, Scott, and Gianni, as well as an optimized G2 Male base, I have a casual outfit, 4 pieces, and a massive texture set, and I am currently working on a set of scifi battle armor with bodysuits and weapons, both a male and matching female version.  I also have some more male hairstyles on my project board, as well as 3 outfits I plan to make.  All for the males :)  It will be interesting to see if my monthly income over the next few months matches what I earned when doing female products.  I'm counting on you, the buying public, to make it worth my time :)  I wish I could show you some previews, but of course that is not possible.

    I'll consider buying some of it, I just have less need; dynamics fulfill the role for most of it. I could use some more great quality stuff, and would agree that there is some disparity in male and female. For instance it's rare to see creases in men's trousers, yet in real life, outside of jeans they are common.

     

    mjc1016 said:
    Uzilite said:
    • I can't speak for all vendors, however, the items I produced weren't based on market demands (I hardly even paid attention to it) but rather from unused concept designs I did from work or just what my mood was at the moment. Sometimes even from music that I listened to. I don't have a floor of marketing researchers on hand to analyze my sales.

    Maybe that is what more vendors need to do...but, being one of the 'known' go to vendors for male clothing does help.  I think it's easy to get caught up in the 'that's what sells, so I need to make more of it'.  I really want to move to being a vendor at some point, but being slaved to 'market demands' makes it less fun/more like a 'real' job.  I suppose if I had to do it as a primary income source that would be more important, but I don't know.

    I don't have much of your catalog, but what I do have I use often, when doing guys.

    Uzilite said:

     

    • Of course there will be more variety for female clothing. While you can design 137,925 diffrent style of women's dresses, while with men it's pretty much long sleeve or short sleeve. Apparently men and women have different tastes and needs. That's just the way it is. Visit any real life clothing store and see how many floors are dedicated to female fashion while the men's section is half a floor near the restroom. 

    I have daughters...I know.  Men/boys are easy to buy for/clothe...girls/women...NO!  Just how many pairs of jeans, for guys, can be put in the store before saturation is reached?

    Well, females like a gazillioin different shades and hues; men, mostly, don't give a damn. At least I dont.

    I've returned to education as a mature student; the girls wear masses of different items, the guys... well mainly jeans. The colours on the girls stuff can make my eyes bleed, both from being shoutingly bright, to being like an explosion at a paint factory. The guys, well (again) blue is popular, as is black. Much of the variety I see is related to football or group/rock-bands.

    The one exception for guys is Training shoes: wow... they beat the girls there, for colour variety - I doubt very much they beat em on quantity. :)

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,220
    mjc1016 said:

    Note to self: Make sure there's a fair variety of men's stuff to go with the male characters. Leastaways more than just a Gakuren and combat uniforms.

    But don't neglect the combat uniforms...

    Actually no, I have little use for them; one good one in the pro pack might temp me to get the pro pack, if I'm undecided.

    What would tempt me more, is if the stuff features few beefcakes... That I have almost zero use for. It simply isn't representative of the population. Sickleyields Big boys, I bought and have used, not a lot, but it was required.

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 6,587

    I appoligize if I came out sounding too harsh in my opinion on this.  I do believe Slosh said it far better than I...

     

    Slosh said:

    I get what you are doing by showing these examples, and I know I'm going to get trampled for saying this, BUT... If male clothing already sells less than female clothing (and I didn't say "it doesn't sell", just that it sells less), then some of these examples will sell even less because they are extreme and niche.  If I could make one of these outfits in a day or two, maybe three, I would "take a chance" on them, but sadly even simple clothes can take a week or more and I wouldn't spend a week making something that sells 10% of 30%, if you understand what I mean.  That's not to say these examples aren't super cool... I would enjoy rendering a scene with some of them.  I just can't justify my time for something that will sell less than even the average male outfit.  Please don't beat me up for saying this 

    indecision

     

    None the less, even well produced male clothing by excellent artists like Luthbel, Uzilite or even Stonemason (Streetwear) does not mean it will sell well.  Well talented artists like them are the exception and not the norm. 

     

    And again, my appoligies for comming off too strong in my first post.

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,924

    Attracting more people interested in illustrating men is the key. DAZ store needs to work more on outreach, and illustrating what DAZ studio male figures can do, rather than focusing so much on ads featuring women. 

    But as studio users grow I predict growth on both sides, more female only illustrators, but hopefully more people interested in male content. 

    I absollutely don't think people who think they can't make money off of designing men's content should do it.

    I do think those who do it well should continue though. I'd rather have quality than quantity

  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 12,485
    edited October 2015

    Easy solution - make male clothing and approach Daz as a new PA.  To those who criticize the quality, I agree that everyone has to start somewhere and skills improve with experience, but once basic vertex modeling skills are acquired, 3D modeling is a matter of patience.  It is easier for someone with middle level skills to be patient and generate a good product than for marketing to convince the Daz user base to change the mix of sluttishness in the galleries so that existing PAs will change their mix of products.

     

    I am only a middling modeler, but with patience, even I can generate the mesh for anything.  Yes, anything.  Similarly, uvmapping and texturing are a matter of patience.  Creating special morphs for joint movements, etc. are a matter of patience.  Rigging extra bones, rigidity mapping, etc., just require reading the available documentation and being patient.  I was being silly in my earlier post, but I threw that barbarian outfit together in about a half hour from a base G2M envelope that I created.  Daz has made the steps for content creation easily accessible.  Try it.

    great thread gathering many helpful resources for content creation -  http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/14421/simplified-guide-to-genesis-content-creation/p1

    some of the available videos

    old basics of transfer utility   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7abESLvn0yg

    another   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLB2o_FYDAw

    weightmap brush   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjgIC2vhRII

    rigging modification  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cV3VaC7eIs

    more - polygon group editor  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k52wwyv234U

     more - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIIM1oAan7o

     

    You can do this.  Become a PA, or encourage new people to become PAs.  As far as I know, there isn't anyone discouraging people from offering male clothing.  Or, form a male clothing support group and share your creations with each other as freebies.

     

    EDIT: and you might check out the kindle version of the book Digital Modeling by William Vaughan.  It is not specific to any particular program, so many of its insights will apply to hexagon, blender, silo, carrara, wings, or whatever you choose to model in.

    Post edited by Diomede on
  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,924

    Not everyone has the skills, time, or interest in being a 3D modeler, though. It is wonderful if you have those skills and interest- but no that isn't a solution for everyone.

  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 12,485
    edited October 2015

    I think the disconect is the notion that a PA needs to be someone who is only a PA.  Don't quit your day jobs.  The quality will be a matter of patience.  If you throw something together in a half hour like I did, it will show.  If I put another 10 hours into my barbarian outfit, it would improve significantly.  Another ten hours, more improvement, but the differences would be more subtle.  Another ten hours? Additional improvements would again be harder to discern.  As a hobbyist working sporadically, maybe someone only has an initial product in a few weeks or even longer.  Then there would be the back and forth with Daz quality control, which would be significant and require even more patience. I don't want to diminish any of that.  But at the end of the day, the only thing standing in the way of more male content in the store is more people bringing male outfits to Daz and persevering through the back and forth with quality control.

     

    But a big part of quality is a matter of patience.  Try making something.  Just one thing.  How about castaway pants for a Robinson Carusoe type story? Try modeling a pair of pants that have a rope instead of a belt and the pantlegs are jagged as if someone cut them at the thighs, and one of the pockets is ripped.  Or, maybe someone has a better suggestion.  Doesn't really matter.  Try taking the first step.  Choose a modeling program and create a mesh that fits the G2M, along with appropriate uvmaps.

    Post edited by Diomede on
  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 12,485
    edited October 2015

    You don't need everyone to make more clothes for males in order to get more male clothing.  You just need some people.  Existing PAs have told you why they don't. If some (not all) people who complain about the lack of male clothing were to make some male clothing, more male clothing would be available for everyone.  So, it is in fact a solution for everyone.

     

     

    Not everyone has the skills, time, or interest in being a 3D modeler, though. It is wonderful if you have those skills and interest- but no that isn't a solution for everyone.

     

    Post edited by Diomede on
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