It's Not Raining Men

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  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,931
    edited October 2015

    I'm cool with existing pa's not talented or interested in making men's stuff not making it. In fact, please don't. =-) 

    But nope, not interested in working on modelling 3d clothing at present. I have so little time to do 3d art as it is. 

    Post edited by Serene Night on
  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 12,495

    That is the great thing.  Doesn't have to be Serene Night making the male content, any more than any particular artist who renders females needs to make the female content.  Hopefully, someone attracted by the subject line of the thread may have the inclination to try to make custom content - even if at first it is just a lark.  We should encourage that person or those people, and be mindful that even the most experienced/talented existing PAs were beginners once.  I am definitely NOT suggesting that anyone buy inferior content just to be encouraging.  Part of that is the job of Daz's quality control, but it is also incumbent upon us to give constructive criticism to new PAs - with the key word being constructive.

  • The thing is that quite a few of those outfits that are posted can already be done with a texture change alone. That is the issue with quite a few of the suggestions I see over the years. I am all for more male stuff but a lot of it is already out there.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001

    The thing is that quite a few of those outfits that are posted can already be done with a texture change alone. That is the issue with quite a few of the suggestions I see over the years. I am all for more male stuff but a lot of it is already out there.

    Yeah, that's what I was thinking....especially those last four image...the swimsuits and the hoodie are things I'm pretty sure are in the store, already.

  • DarkSpartanDarkSpartan Posts: 1,095
    edited October 2015

    We'll see some essentials at the G3M release, some more for Michael, and then the breathless push for new "Official" characters every so often. In between times, we'll likely see a steady (if thin) lineup of men's stuff. Right now, I suspect that the dearth of menswear arriving has a similar line of thought to why I haven't just been doing the male characters I was talking about upthread in Genesis 2 Male:

    The new tech is coming up fairly soon, and people that can make content for men are either focused on that or waiting for it so they don't artificially shorten the lifespan of their products. Most of the stuff on release is for G3F now, and G3M should balance it a bit better.

    Crying sexual discrimination at this point is hyperbole-- it's like having three sons and having someone screaming at you because you blow through the little girl's section at Wal-Mart without buying anything, only to load down your cart with stuff for five-year-old boys (yes this happened to me, just last week. Only difference is that I only have two sons I have to shop for).

    I have no problem making men's content. I'd just rather not spend a bunch of time making for last generation when I know next gen is coming sooner rather than later.

    Post edited by DarkSpartan on
  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,223

    PAs are entitled to make any item they wish; I suspect that they make what interests them, what they feel confident in making, and perhaps most importantly, what makes them the most cash; we all like to be well paid.

    I fail to understand folks expecting others to take a pay cut, just to suite their need - that strikes me as a little selfish.

    I think this will be the last time I read this thread, it will certainly be the last time I respond.

    If there isn't an item you want, learn how to make - it then release it; I would love to know how that turned out, and if you'll (whoever you are) be repeating it.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,476

    Nicstt: Yes, but consider marketing.

    'This doesn't sell because in the past it hasn't sold. So we aren't wasting our time promoting it or marketing it much' seems an awfully circular situation.

    Even if male stuff will always sell less (which is likely), there is a middle ground of arguing 'yes, but it would be a lot more viable with more support.'

     

  • LeatherGryphonLeatherGryphon Posts: 9,219
    edited October 2015

    What happened to the idea of a "Male Only" render contest?

    Post edited by LeatherGryphon on
  • DarkSpartanDarkSpartan Posts: 1,095

    What happened to the idea of a "Male Only" render contest?

    That could be fun, actually.

  • lxlx Posts: 2,996

    Nicstt: Yes, but consider marketing.

    'This doesn't sell because in the past it hasn't sold. So we aren't wasting our time promoting it or marketing it much' seems an awfully circular situation.

    Even if male stuff will always sell less (which is likely), there is a middle ground of arguing 'yes, but it would be a lot more viable with more support.'

     

    I'm all for more support and more marketing of male content. What I really have trouble getting on board with is people throwing around accusations of discrimination and lack of artistic integrity because they aren't getting what they personally want delivered to them.

    The simplest solution is to start making more content. Even if every person who wanted more male content only made one thing, if there really is such a market for it, then that'd be a whole load of new items. If you're unable or unwilling to learn to do that, then you are much more likely to make progress by starting your own constructive initiatives rather than sitting around complaining. 

    The previously mentioned render contest idea seems like a good one. I'm not sure about the forum rules concerning it, but it seems like a workable idea that you could make a thread highlighting reviewing whatever your favourite male items in the store that people might not know about. Post more male renders in your galleries. Explain why products are great and why you want to see more of them. If Daz is slow or unwitting to do the marketing by themselves, start showing them how much demand there is by making mock promotional things showing how cool a character can be. 

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001

    There are a couple of ways to go about contests..

    The Freebie and New Users contests are always open to suggestions for themes.

    There have been PA sponsored contests in the past.

    Others have sponsored contests.

    So it certainly is a viable idea.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,476

    I really wish people would drop the 'then make it yourself!' response. It's... not helpful.

    It's like I'm complaining that there aren't enough electric cars available, and they aren't very affordable yet, and your response is 'well, build one yourself!'

     

    Um, yeah. I mean it's POSSIBLE for me to do that, I suppose, but... no. Not helpful.

     

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,931
    edited October 2015

    Agreed. The make it yourself thing comes off as pretty unhelpful.  

    I also think I have to address the idea that it is selfish to ask for content that you want. That is absolutely not true. It is not selfish to make requests. Male figures are sold at the DAZ store. It is reasonable to ask for male content to be sold here as well.  No one is trying to hurt pa's in any shape or form and the suggestion is offensive.

    Pa's are mature enough to be able to make their own decisions about whether somethign will be profitable for them, They are all adults.  So lets not level accusations about selfishness towards people making reasonable requests for clothing and support for existing figures.

     

    Post edited by Serene Night on
  • lxlx Posts: 2,996

    I really wish people would drop the 'then make it yourself!' response. It's... not helpful.

    It's like I'm complaining that there aren't enough electric cars available, and they aren't very affordable yet, and your response is 'well, build one yourself!'

     

    Um, yeah. I mean it's POSSIBLE for me to do that, I suppose, but... no. Not helpful.

     

    This doesn't really work for several reasons. There is no free way to develop and build an electric car. You don't need a factory and years of engineering knowledge to work out how to make whatever specific clothing item you're lacking.

    Alternatively, let's remove the make it yourself response.

    "There aren't enough electronic cars!"

    Car Companies: "Yeah, well, we don't think they sell that well for the effort involved and the government doesn't market them as well as they do petrol cars."

    "But I will buy one!"

    Car Companies: "But that won't recompense the money lost for my job of making things that are a sure bet for income. However there is a new electric car type coming soon and some of us are making cars designed for that. In the meantime, you can probably scrape by most of what you need from existing electric cars."

    "Where is your integrity!!!"

    This isn't particularly helpful either.

    Daz shifting to push marketing for male figures equally would be the biggest possible change, but no one has disagreed with that. We all think it'd be great if they did it. Even the people buying skinny white supertall models are bored of buying skinny white supertall models. In the meantime, people have suggested other methods, from making models yourself to making gallery images and running render contests, etc. to show your interest in the male market. Render things, draw ideas, write about them. But people who want more focus on those things need to actually do those things themselves. Doing something productive is far more likely to get noticed than a string of disgruntled complaints on a thread.

  • I always hear that people aren't buying men's content but erm... Yeah I do. 

    No, what PAs say is that fewer people buy male content, which is based on their and other PAs' experience. No one says no one buys male content.

    I will buy male content, but only when I need a male to put opposite a female.  I will buy nearly all the female stuff as it comes out (skimpwear too); and only buy the male stuff if I need it to tell the story about the girl.

    Because really, it's all about the girl.

    The female form is/will almost always be the set piece in my works, because that's where my interest lies.  Maybe it's just how I'm wired.  I suspect that this is some sort of a physiological baseline for me.  I suspect that I'm not an atypical man here.  The only thing that may be atypical is that I know this about myself and I'm okay with me on this point.  smiley

  • JOdelJOdel Posts: 5,832
    edited October 2015

    Frankly, I don't care that there is decent stuff in the store already and that it autofits mostly okay.

    I am quite happy to pay someone to do me a good refit. I would *happily*(and eagerly!) re-purchase Wanted Dead of Alive, or ToA Legendary. Or for that martter most of Uzilite or Luthbel's M3, or M4 sets. Hell, I will happily repurchase most of the PC items as a matter of course, if they get reissued as a refit rather than just redone as something similar (I'll repurchase even more happily for the PC stuff, actually. Most of it has collected an impressive array of texture sets) I will be even happier to pay for them for G3M, since even with autofit gen4 to G3 is likely to be a stretch. Gen3 would probably be even worse. And *I don't care* if I've already repurchsed it for G2M already. If the new refit works better out of the box on the new figure, it's worth it. Particularly for the PC. Let's see Valient redone. Or Veranil, Evilson, or Urbane. Good sets with lots of useful parts.

    And yes I am always happy to see new stuff, that I can use. And no, I'm not likely to buy the painted-on pants unless they come with something that is useful. But the real grouseing from this direction is when I've got something that I know will suit my purpose and I know I *can't use it* because it *no longer works well enough*.

    Post edited by JOdel on
  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,931
    edited October 2015

    I don't really see this thread as composed of disgruntled people. It is a reality that there is a lack of male content. It is a reality that most of us are aware of. Some of us do render men's content, so we do, 'do things for ourselves.'

    It is always quite dismaying to have the female market so overly catered to, and when someone wants something for a man, it's 'use this old version, make it yourself, there is no money in it.'  

    We are well aware of how to make do with old content, we are aware that some feel there is no money in it, and we are aware we can take up modeling in our limited spare time. Those options are somewhat self evident really.

    Post edited by Serene Night on
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,476

    Ix, and when people make bad arguments like those, I point out they are bad arguments, too. It doesn't warrant making an equally bad argument back.

     

  • lxlx Posts: 2,996
    edited October 2015

    The title of the thread is "Daz and Daz content creators' sexual discrimination..." and the OP has made several insulting, disgruntled remarks towards PAs during the course of the thread. The responses were directed at that.

    Almost no one has disagreed that there is a lack of male focused content. Some have explained why they don't want to make it. Others have said that they are working on it at the moment. Everyone agrees that Daz should market the male side more than they do. Since there is a general agreement on these points, the most productive thing is to then move on to what you can do to try and get what you want. People have suggested several ways to try and gain a bit more attention for your cause, not only via making a 3d model. Personally I'm just going to wait and see what happens with G3M.

    Normally when someone points out that an argument is bad, they want to be shown why. I've tried my best to give a range of suggestions in various mediums that people can do to try and gain more attention for the content they want to be made, but if they're not good enough for some reason, hopefully someone else can give you some suggestions that better satisfy you.

    Post edited by lx on
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,476

    Because if someone had the skills or inclination to make their own clothes, they would be, and it doesn't serve much purpose other than to say 'be quiet.'

    And this isn't the first thread (or even the dozenth) where this argument has been made.

     

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,476
    Also, I'm not sure 'everyone agrees Daz should market male stuff more.' That would be great if true...
  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,931
    edited October 2015

    The store has a bias against male figures I'm afraid.  It has nothing to do with specific vendors or pa's but you can see it if you look.  it includes how some male base figures are created and promoted as well as advertised. It is what it it is, but to me it is undeniably there.

     

    Post edited by Serene Night on
  • I'm late to the conversation, but I wanted to say that I look forward to seeing what Slosh has in the works.  I know it will probably end up in my cart.  I am, also, one of the one who bought Uzilite's new outfit and the rain gear for G2M.  I got into DAZ because the bulk of what I want to do is centered around the male model as well as couple renders.  I was so excited about learning what I could do with the software, but I am a little tired of seeing a lot of products that I will never use.  Of course, that just means I don't spend as much.  I have to say visiting the store to see lots of female skimpware and practically none for the males is a little intimidating.  While I have bought a few skimpy outfits for the females, most of those items came with figure bundles.  I would buy skimpwear for men in a heartbeat.  Not so much the women.  I bought very little during the last two sales.  I bought mostly sets (Stonemason and FirstBastion have received the bulk of my money there) and the Victoria 7 bundle.  The only female clothing I have purchased is mostly the deeply discounted PC items during the current sale.  They were all tasteful and/or period pieces.  The rest of my purchases were all male oriented.  I even managed to pick up some back catalog stuff for the males.  I even managed to get Sickleyield's Big Boys product and Forbidden Whisper's Freckles for G2M.  While I realize those aren't clothing, they had been in my wishlist and they are a male oriented product. 

    If one were to look at my Gallery (please don't, and if you do, I apologize as I'm still learning) you would find that the few renders I have there have an almost equal distribution between men, women, and fantasy creatures.  Most of my work (the REALLY bad stuff) isn't in the gallery, but, there, the male figures out number most other renders.  I'm getting better at lighting and setting up my shots and a whole plethera of other skills, but I am only just starting to try things like modeling outside of DAZ so I really do need vendors who make clothing for the male models.  I have a whole wishlist of clothing items that I haven't been able to find yet.  I hope they show up, and if they do, I will buy them.

    As for showing off renders of male specific items in the Galleries by more male oriented artists, I would love to see that.  I get tired of visiting the Gallery and seeing all of the morphed boobs and barely clad females.  I would love to visit and see a nice buff chest with just a smattering of hair who is looking at me with dreamy eyes and a come hither stare.....( I have a few of those I'm working on myself.)  Unfortunately, I think some of the commenters are correct in that, unless they are extremely good, these types of renders don't get the big numbers when it comes to 'likes'.  There are a few, like Mavrosh for example, who consistently get the higher numbers in the galleries when it comes to male renders.   I have serious doubts that things will change.  For now, I just do a happy dance when I do see anything for the males in the shop and, if I can afford it, I buy it.  I am slowly learning to make my own clothing, as well, so someday, I won't have to rely on the sporadic offererings of male clothing.  I can just make it. 

  • There does seem to be an air of accusation in some comments. No one is going to sit down and take time to deliberately make bad content in order not to sell, no one is going to spurn a sector knowing they could make money from it. It may be that the PAs who have had poor sales experience with male content could have achieved better results with a different approach, but if so they need constructive feedback not accusations or blanket dismissals. Please try to remember that your goal is to persuade others to meet your requests and phrase your posts accordingly.

  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 12,495

    I wish people would drop the denigration of the "have someone make it" response.  No one is saying YOU have to make it.  But It is like having someone say they don't want to bake cookies and then complaining that the world is discriminatory because it has more sugar cookies than oatmeal cookies.  You can make oatmeal cookies.  It is nothing at all like saying "make your own car."  Ordinary people can make their own cookies by following the directions and being patient.  Many ordinary people do not have the capital equipment to make their own car even if they follow the directions (although there are some kits).

     

    Each and every one of us has the capital equipment to make male clothes if we follow the directions and are patient.  Even if you don't want to make the clothes yourself, are you telling me that this vast resevoir of untapped male clothing buyers doesn't have a single person who wants to try the artistic effort to make clothes just to try it?  And please, when they do, don't complain that their first effort is not as good as Stonemason or the other established vendors.  Of course not.

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 10,435

    The store has a bias against male figures I'm afraid.  It has nothing to do with specific vendors or pa's but you can see it if you look.  it includes how some male base figures are created and promoted as well as advertised. It is what it it is, but to me it is undeniably there.

     

    see, I just don't see that and it could be because i am not the target audience for male items, but we always get male counterparts for the base females and we always get content for them when released, just as with the base female. I don't view what comes inbetween as bias just preference from content creators. When GM3 is released there will be a flurry of new items and those that want male content will have some choices, just like when GF3 was released

     

    Because if someone had the skills or inclination to make their own clothes, they would be, and it doesn't serve much purpose other than to say 'be quiet.'

    And this isn't the first thread (or even the dozenth) where this argument has been made.

     

    I disagree, i would gather that most content creators had some kind of push that got them into creating and in many cases it was probably because they wanted something specific no one else had made. If there was better documentation on rigging or an easier way, you would probably have more outfits for both sexes, the modeling in the easy part for me.

    i tried the Mixamo auto rigger app the other day and it worked great and saved the figure as an .FBX format that will let me pose it in carrara, if DS had something lik this, we probably wouldn't even need this thread.

     

    I always hear that people aren't buying men's content but erm... Yeah I do. 

    No, what PAs say is that fewer people buy male content, which is based on their and other PAs' experience. No one says no one buys male content.

    I will buy male content, but only when I need a male to put opposite a female.  I will buy nearly all the female stuff as it comes out (skimpwear too); and only buy the male stuff if I need it to tell the story about the girl.

    Because really, it's all about the girl.

    The female form is/will almost always be the set piece in my works, because that's where my interest lies.  Maybe it's just how I'm wired.  I suspect that this is some sort of a physiological baseline for me.  I suspect that I'm not an atypical man here.  The only thing that may be atypical is that I know this about myself and I'm okay with me on this point.  smiley

    That is pretty much me as well. As long as I have a good selection of heels for my figures, I am good to go, LOL.

  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 12,495
    edited October 2015

    RE: "make your own clothes" is like saying "be quiet."  Not at all.  I am trying to be constructive.  This is a problem that is easy to solve.  In comparison, I dont know what optimum marketing is such that I could tell someone else what their marketing strategy ought to be. 

     

    Why don't some of us go through the steps together?  As stated above by FSMCDesigns, making the mesh is the easy part.  Let us start with that.  As I said earlier  , pick some item such as a shirt or a pair of pants or whatever and why don't we have some period of time during which those who are interested generate a mesh in any program and share screenshots of our efforts?  At this stage, people can offer constructive criticism, such as it is typical when starting to have a fitted mesh with no drape to it.  We can then share some improvements for some period of time.  Then we can go through subsequent steps together such as rigidity mapping buttons, weightmapping, etc. 

    Post edited by Diomede on
  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,931
    edited October 2015

    see, I just don't see that and it could be because i am not the target audience for male items, but we always get male counterparts for the base females and we always get content for them when released, just as with the base female. I don't view what comes inbetween as bias just preference from content creators. When GM3 is released there will be a flurry of new items and those that want male content will have some choices, just like when GF3 was released

    You are probably right. Just as I'm not the target audience for most of what is presently being advertised. I like female characters. But I'm not into the portrayal of the sexy pinup. 

    Male figures are released after female figures. In gen 3 males case after many figures have already been released.  They usually come with less stuff, sometimes of less quality, often costing more.  The marketing is not extensive off-site. I would say I most often see female DAZ figures advertised in the spam banners off site.  In the case of gen 2 male, the chest was clearly designed from a woman's chest.  Advertising on site, consists of sexy women but rarely males portrayed similarly. There are other things, but The list goes on. This to me is bias. Less effort is also made in the development of bases for men. In the case of scott 6.. He had only one eye color.  Can't recall a female character base with only one eye color... etc.

     

    Post edited by Serene Night on
  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,931
    edited October 2015

    RE: "make your own clothes" is like saying "be quiet."  Not at all.  

    I'm afraid I agree with Timmins on this. Sorry for messing up quoting.

    Post edited by Serene Night on
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,476

    Actually, one thing I've suggested a number of times, and I would love to see, is something like Kickstarter. If some of the more popular vendors would start getting requests/interest ahead of time, it might help make it easier to gauge where they should spend their time and have people actually chip in to demonstrate real interest. It would, of course, have to start with the most popular vendors who have a proven track record, and obviously not everyone can afford to put money into stuff that might take a year to make.

     

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