It's Not Raining Men

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  • As someone who uses mostly male figures in my work (I do historicals, mostly Westerns – so I work with a lot of cowboys and people set in the late 1800s) for RPG game books, I can attest that there is a dearth of material for the male figures. Items for women dominate the field.

    But I’ve come to accept that I’m working in a super-refined niche of this hobby: The bulk of my past work focuses on cowboys (and zombies); that’s pretty darned focused. The reality is, there’s only so much material out there in that field, but because it’s such a niche, in that category menswear is actually the norm, not the exception. In other words, I’ve had more trouble getting acceptable women’s clothing! Most of the female clothing for cowgirls is way too modern and slutty for me to use. Fortunately, there are people out there producing the occasional dress or hairstyle that I can use (thank goodness many Victorian and Edwardian styles are acceptable for my work).

     I’m currently working on projects that branch out into superheroes and sci-fi, so I actually find myself needing to stock up on clothing and props for women. A new experience for me, to say the least.

    --------------------

    Focusing on the topic at hand, though. I don’t begrudge any of the artists for their choices. They need to make a living and I appreciate that. It’s just the way it is.

    That being said, I do have a suggestion (and an observation).

    Don’t be afraid to look at older figures for your work. I use all the figures in my work, going back as far as M3. I’ve even used the old P4 dork as a background character (almost a silhouette, in some cases, but his low poly count is friendly on my processor). There are great shaders that can be applied to them to bring them up to modern standards, especially skin shaders. Hair is a little more tricky. But the reason to go “old school” is that you greatly improve your chances of finding what you want when you don’t limit yourself to only buying what’s new.

    Secondly, there are LOTS of male options available in the historical genres: Cowboys, Pirates, Victorian, Edwardian, Military. And, the fact is, a pair of trousers looks pretty much the same no matter what year they were made. Although the extremes don’t work (pirates have limited modern use), many of the outfits for men could be used in a modern setting. For example, you could easily modernize the Working Man for M4 (http://www.daz3d.com/working-man-for-m4) outfit by losing the hat and tweaking the shirt texture: Instant Hipster! Same thing for cowboys – jeans and a shirt look fine then and they look fine now.

    So, although I do sympathize with you (“I feel your pain”), I’ve been working with this issue for more than a decade. Most of my art is male centric and I’ve just learned to patiently buy what’s available, and I keep expanding my options by being creative and using older figures in my work.

    Best of luck!

  • araneldon said:

    How can I buy something that hasn't been made?

    Exactly.  I've been saying that for years.  Male content and models sell very well on other websites.  It's just that vendors don't want to make male clothing or lack the skills to make good clothing.  There are the few that do make quality clothing, and there are those whose products are substandard and won't sell hence lack of sales.  The price probably plays into it as well.  Lack of support for Poser has also driven down male content sales which new vendors won't take into consideration.

  • I always hear that people aren't buying men's content but erm... Yeah I do. 

    So do I except when it isn't available here.  Michael 4 had a big lack of clothing which is why I moved on to Genesis.  I snatched up just about everything and now it's time to move on to another website because it's female overload here.

  • StratDragonStratDragon Posts: 3,144

    if you need content you cant find it instead of asking a content creator to release a product that may not generate return on investment be prepared hire their expertise in a freelance capacity and pay them for their time. This will give you greater control over the product and you will be directly helping a product provider and reimbursing them for their time. If your asking someone to provide you with an asset and you not only wish to not pay them or have them see little or nothing in return here is the freepository. In addition to that you can learn modeling.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,493

    As an aside, Wilmap has a bounty of male and female clothing that helps plug a LOT of holes. Seriously, it's a treasure.

     

    https://www.wilmapsdigitalcreations.co.uk/login.php

  • SyndarylSyndaryl Posts: 521

    I haven't felt the lack quite so much because, like Mmitchel_houston, I do illustration and portraiture for a genre that's actually male dominated ("realistic" semi-medieval fantasy, as opposed to battle bikinis, or horror/scifi). Non-sexy monsters are overwhelmingly male and I actually have to struggle to transfer them to females. But every time I get a request outside of that genre area, things do get a little thin for men and I do a lot of creative repurposing or cross-figure refits. I've repeatedly put ostensibly womens clothing on male characters - I have to do targeted mesh touch-up to sort out the chest region and sometimes fix necklines, but I almost always have to do that with big muscly characters anyways, so it's not so painful.

    Yes, I'm one of the people who keeps the vendors who work on male items in business. But at least based on my purchases, it's the folks making exotic characters and products: I went totally spend-happy when Minotaur 6 came out. I'm a sucker for big, stupid, and fantasy :D

    I have bought every ludicrous bit of posing-wear for men that I can find, because I really have gotten requests for it from my customers, and I desperately need to give them choices. The women have a jillion bikinis because 1) they sell 2) they're kinda easy to make. I don't buy every bikini that comes out because I only need to buy a small fraction to have the same variety. Usually enough come in the Pro packs for the figures here that I don't actually need to get more.

    I make unisex items myself, for my own benefit. Something that I can put on characters of either gender - because frankly that's less work for me later if I need something like that for the other gender. Unisex clothing tends to not be sexualized. Sexualized clothing sells better, because as the advertising industry has learned very well, sex sells. Sexy womens wear is really hard to make into sexy mens wear, and vice versa, once you get away from like, togas and loincloths.

  • EtriganEtrigan Posts: 603

    Actually, folks, a quick look at the user galleries will illustrate that the preference and "discrimination" begins with the end-user, aka customer. The vast majority of images are hyper-sexualized female figures. The "likes", too, show the preference. It's my belief that the galleries reflect the "typical" non-professional user, along with a scattering of professional promo pics. One newer trend, though, is the rapid increase in beefcake images... clothing vendors are unnecessary.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,493

    I really dislike elaborate female-only uniforms, like scifi stuff, unless it crossfits reasonably with men.

    On a similar vein, I went with Bot for Genesis and have not gotten Bot for G2F, because unless I know it will crossfit, a female-only robot thing? Meh.

    (I will probably buy it at some point, try to crossfit, and if it doesn't work, promptly return it)

     

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,965
    edited October 2015

    I really dislike elaborate female-only uniforms, like scifi stuff, unless it crossfits reasonably with men.

    I agree. I miss some of the unisex features of genesis. Since most of the sci-fi sold here is sexy female, it can be frustrating to make a consistant uniform for the guys to match the gals.

     

    On a similar vein, I went with Bot for Genesis and have not gotten Bot for G2F, because unless I know it will crossfit, a female-only robot thing? Meh.

    (I will probably buy it at some point, try to crossfit, and if it doesn't work, promptly return it)

     

    I use gen 2 bot female for parts all the time for men. The torso is the problem area and the female looking face. The limbs can be used for auto fit. It isn't wonderful but works ok.

    Post edited by Serene Night on
  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,965
    whboswell said:

    I always hear that people aren't buying men's content but erm... Yeah I do. 

    So do I except when it isn't available here.  Michael 4 had a big lack of clothing which is why I moved on to Genesis.  I snatched up just about everything and now it's time to move on to another website because it's female overload here.

    I do agree the female overload here is pretty extreme.

  • MoranaMorana Posts: 326

    I do have to wonder if there would be more demand for male content if the Daz marketing machine put more effort into creating a demand for it.  Instead of a bikini-clad female at the top of and throughout every marketing email, why not a male character?  Instead of the ads with V7 just standing there in her white bra, how about Daz ads with Scott 6 looking like he's just about to kick some ass?

    Are there perhaps potential users that are turned off by the stigma that Daz/Poser is just for pinups and porn based on the marketing they see?  If Daz/Rendo/RDNA markets its men doing manly things, perhaps they can better tap into a market that will demand and purchase more male content.  Target and go after a different audience that's looking to tell stories with the software.  Gamers?  Roleplayers?

    Just my thought that's been festering on this topic for some time now.  I do know two male Studio users who gave up on the hobby because they couldn't find the content they needed to tell their stories of their male characters and a couple more who didn't even start because the content wasn't there.  If I know a few, and I don't know many people in this hobby, then there's got to be a lot more out there who feel the same way they did.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,493
     

    I use gen 2 bot female for parts all the time for men. The torso is the problem area and the female looking face. The limbs can be used for auto fit. It isn't wonderful but works ok.

    Hmm. One option that might work is using some of the androgyny and GenX2 to bring over male morphs. So I can make a very masculine-looking morph from G2F... something to experiment with.

     

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,965

    Hmm. One option that might work is using some of the androgyny and GenX2 to bring over male morphs. So I can make a very masculine-looking morph from G2F... something to experiment with.

    Yeah, I did that. It works fine, using a figure like Nalin or gen-xing another male. But the shape of the torso and the facial emphasized areas give him a slightly fem look. Not bad, but clearly more androgynous than totally masculine.

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 6,603

    Q. - Why dont PAs make as many male items as they do female items?

    A. - Because the customer wont buy them!

     

    Its been hashed over a thousand times and the answer is still the same.  Customers have spoken with their $$$ that they would rather buy female items over male items.  While some male items still get made, the return on them tends to be lower then if it was for a female.

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,965
    edited October 2015

     

    Mattymanx said:

    Q. - Why dont PAs make as many male items as they do female items?

    A. - Because the customer wont buy them!

     

    Its been hashed over a thousand times and the answer is still the same.  Customers have spoken with their $$$ that they would rather buy female items over male items.  While some male items still get made, the return on them tends to be lower then if it was for a female.

    Some customers do buy them though. I certainly do. 

     

    Post edited by Serene Night on
  • 3Ddreamer3Ddreamer Posts: 1,180

    I do wonder if buying Female stuff to crossfit to Male (and I have too) isn't just perpetuating the problem - that is just more Female content sales because we can't get a Male version, and then people will eventually go 'well they can tranfer it so they don't need a Male version', however poorly it works. So we end up paying full/discount price and then have to do more work to use it, whereas it works out of the box on Females. And I have raided every male generations for clothes (well from D3/M3 up) and am a whiz with the transfer tool :-) I just think the G3M/M7 release will just be a minor blip in seeing Male Content offered (I'll be watching the quality which seems to be going downhill on DO Male Clothes) and then back to the regular programming of Female sex wear. :-( I agree with others, Male stuff isn't marketed enough.

  • SloshSlosh Posts: 2,388

    I think many of you will be happy to know that my recent work (unreleased, sorry) has been focused on the male figure.  Of course, that is because we are getting things ready for the Genesis 3 Male, so my work has been for him.  But, just so you know what is coming from me, I have Genesis 2 Male Legacies, which include Michael 6, Darius, Lee, Scott, and Gianni, as well as an optimized G2 Male base, I have a casual outfit, 4 pieces, and a massive texture set, and I am currently working on a set of scifi battle armor with bodysuits and weapons, both a male and matching female version.  I also have some more male hairstyles on my project board, as well as 3 outfits I plan to make.  All for the males :)  It will be interesting to see if my monthly income over the next few months matches what I earned when doing female products.  I'm counting on you, the buying public, to make it worth my time :)  I wish I could show you some previews, but of course that is not possible.

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,965

    Marketing and improving demand is key. And male stuff can sell. There are vendors who make excellent mens' content. Xurge3d, Hellfish, and Uzilite..

    Quality is important with men's content, too. Just because it is made for a man, doesn't mean I will buy just anything thrown together. 

  • 3Ddreamer3Ddreamer Posts: 1,180

    Thanks you Slosh! I have you Galactic Force Male outfit - and I cross fitted it to Female for a series of pictures I was moved to do recently and needed a station uniform :-) Though I am a long time SciFi Fan I don't do many SciFi renders. Look forward to what you release :-) [maybe I need that 10% discount Gift card today after all...]

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 10,554

    Marketing and improving demand is key. And male stuff can sell. There are vendors who make excellent mens' content. Xurge3d, Hellfish, and Uzilite..

    Quality is important with men's content, too. Just because it is made for a man, doesn't mean I will buy just anything thrown together. 

    Same could be said for female items. I am in the minority in this thread because I don't render males that often and I am pretty well set with figures, clothing, armor, suits, etc for any male scenes I might need. Doesn't mean I won't purchase new males items if I can see a use for them and the quality is there, but with all the female items that are out there, there are still so many styles and genres that are still to be made and quality comes into play as well.

    I am a modeler and can pretty much model any article of clothing, but I can't rig to save my life. I have thought about being a vendor a few times, but I know I will only make things that appeal to me because i have learned in the past if I work on a project that doesn't move me, then my heart won't be in it and the quality will suffer, and I know a few other modelers I have worked with that feel the same. In saying that, I can't say doing mens items would be my first choice over females just because I am more motivated by the female form and I have to wonder if that might play into the ratio on mens to womens addons in the MP also.

    I feel the key to getting more menswear is to add more vendors to the MP and find more that prefer to work with male figures, that way both camps win.

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,965
    Slosh said:

    I think many of you will be happy to know that my recent work (unreleased, sorry) has been focused on the male figure.  Of course, that is because we are getting things ready for the Genesis 3 Male, so my work has been for him.  But, just so you know what is coming from me, I have Genesis 2 Male Legacies, which include Michael 6, Darius, Lee, Scott, and Gianni, as well as an optimized G2 Male base, I have a casual outfit, 4 pieces, and a massive texture set, and I am currently working on a set of scifi battle armor with bodysuits and weapons, both a male and matching female version.  I also have some more male hairstyles on my project board, as well as 3 outfits I plan to make.  All for the males :)  It will be interesting to see if my monthly income over the next few months matches what I earned when doing female products.  I'm counting on you, the buying public, to make it worth my time :)  I wish I could show you some previews, but of course that is not possible.

    Um, where can I pre-order? Seriously. That all sounds awesome. I will buy it all. Most especially the battle armor and sci-fi weapons, but the figures as well.

    Same could be said for female items. I am in the minority in this thread because I don't render males that often and I am pretty well set with figures, clothing, armor, suits, etc for any male scenes I might need. Doesn't mean I won't purchase new males items if I can see a use for them and the quality is there, but with all the female items that are out there, there are still so many styles and genres that are still to be made and quality comes into play as well.

    I am a modeler and can pretty much model any article of clothing, but I can't rig to save my life. I have thought about being a vendor a few times, but I know I will only make things that appeal to me because i have learned in the past if I work on a project that doesn't move me, then my heart won't be in it and the quality will suffer, and I know a few other modelers I have worked with that feel the same. In saying that, I can't say doing mens items would be my first choice over females just because I am more motivated by the female form and I have to wonder if that might play into the ratio on mens to womens addons in the MP also.

    I feel the key to getting more menswear is to add more vendors to the MP and find more that prefer to work with male figures, that way both camps win.

    Some very good points. I do agree entirely! On all counts. I certainly think people should create what they want, no one should at all feel obligated to do what they don't like, in fact, I hope they don't. But work is work I guess. 

     

    In general at some point I think there will be more influx of users and therfor creators, that we may get some new blood in the content creation side of the house. When this happens I do hope some of them will make men's items. I know certainly, that would be my focus, or more likely unisex outfits. Since I'm more interested in combat/military/action wear. 

  • This is a myth that needs to die.

    • Male items do sell and sell very well. Any who said otherwise don't know what they are talking about. Of all my products at DAZ my male items were the best sellers compared to my female products. After a couple years run DAZ decided to buy all four of them years ago.
    • I can't speak for all vendors, however, the items I produced weren't based on market demands (I hardly even paid attention to it) but rather from unused concept designs I did from work or just what my mood was at the moment. Sometimes even from music that I listened to. I don't have a floor of marketing researchers on hand to analyze my sales.
    • Stonemason is a very succesful and extremely talented vendor here at DAZ and he doesn't sell any female items, what does that say about the demand people keep mentioning here?
    • There are plethora of excellent male items by talented vendors available here at DAZ and at Renderosity. You just need to take the time to look through both stores. I think most of the time this is the case. Often I hear complaints of the lack of ordinary clothes for the male figure when in fact there are tons. Use the search filter to narrow what you want to find.
    • Of course there will be more variety for female clothing. While you can design 137,925 diffrent style of women's dresses, while with men it's pretty much long sleeve or short sleeve. Apparently men and women have different tastes and needs. That's just the way it is. Visit any real life clothing store and see how many floors are dedicated to female fashion while the men's section is half a floor near the restroom.
    • To me modeling 3D clothing for male figure is easier compared to a female figure. The flat chest is an advantage. Although many had asked, I cringed at the thought of doing an armor like Major Cache for the female figure.
    • I agree that DAZ marketing could/should improve their method of promoting male items at the store. But I know one very good way many of you can help: buy 50 copies of each male items from each vendors and I will guarantee my left arm there will be a huge surge of male products. laugh
    • ...Or whenever a vendor publishes a male product that you like, you can create a new thread here in the forum letting everyone know.
    • ...Or better yet, do a killer render with said vendor's product and posted it in the gallery. For me this is what I love. I mean, what's the point of me creating products if people aren't going to use it. The same can be said from your perspective, what's the point of you buying my products if you aren't going to use it. I often visit the gallery here and Renderosity because I love seeing the creative ways people are using my products. Your render is like you giving me a pat on the back. I need a pat on the back from time to time, you know. wink

    Cheers.

  • StratDragonStratDragon Posts: 3,144
    Uzilite said:


    ....Stonemason is a very succesful and extremely talented vendor here at DAZ and he doesn't sell any female items, what does that say about the demand people keep mentioning here?​

    The OP was about clothing. Stonemason doesn't make clothing, he makes scenes, and they are not gender specific, there are both male and female figures prominent in his promos. The same could be said about Pre-a-3D and Reality, hugely popular and not gender specific. 
    If I make a scene and post it on sharecg or rendo and it's a bedroom, office, or interrogation room it downloads 10 to 1 over any prop or clothing - however the bedroom model I made, it was clearly a womans bedroom. 

    Daz once claimed V4 was the most popular model on the planet, have they retracted that assessment? 

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,965

    Actually Stonemason did make the rogue Sci-fi bodysuit.  He also has made some excellent jeans and shoes.I think under his handle Streetwear?

    The rogue suit is excellent quality, and he has promised a male version at some point.

    But Uzilite's points were excellent. I agree 100%

     

     

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited October 2015
    Uzilite said:
    • I can't speak for all vendors, however, the items I produced weren't based on market demands (I hardly even paid attention to it) but rather from unused concept designs I did from work or just what my mood was at the moment. Sometimes even from music that I listened to. I don't have a floor of marketing researchers on hand to analyze my sales.

    Maybe that is what more vendors need to do...but, being one of the 'known' go to vendors for male clothing does help.  I think it's easy to get caught up in the 'that's what sells, so I need to make more of it'.  I really want to move to being a vendor at some point, but being slaved to 'market demands' makes it less fun/more like a 'real' job.  I suppose if I had to do it as a primary income source that would be more important, but I don't know.

    I don't have much of your catalog, but what I do have I use often, when doing guys.

    Uzilite said:

     

    • Of course there will be more variety for female clothing. While you can design 137,925 diffrent style of women's dresses, while with men it's pretty much long sleeve or short sleeve. Apparently men and women have different tastes and needs. That's just the way it is. Visit any real life clothing store and see how many floors are dedicated to female fashion while the men's section is half a floor near the restroom. 

    I have daughters...I know.  Men/boys are easy to buy for/clothe...girls/women...NO!  Just how many pairs of jeans, for guys, can be put in the store before saturation is reached?

    Post edited by mjc1016 on
  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,965

    I would say good sci-fi wear sells. Male skimpwear sells at other stores too. There are underwear products for men which sell here, and excellent clothing sets too. 

    And, Well, to be honest, I don't think reality really enters too much into the clothing depicted in the store for ladies wear most of the time. So I don't think we should be limited too much to what 'what men really wear.'

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,521
    edited October 2015

    Here's a recap on what I've said before.  I'm generally not shy about sharing this sort of information, but many vendors are.

    When the product is for both sexes, the female version generally sells about two to one (the Big Beautiful/Big Boys sets, Beautiful Skin sets, etc.).  When doing prop sets I go for both sexes in one pack as much as possible, because then I can collect from the people who would only buy the female one without having to do twice as many renders (as with the restraint sets and Rigged Water Iray). 

    Female-only clothing content sells badly for me, but this is probably because I just don't do it as well because I really prefer working on males.  My male-only skimpwear products (Genre Undergarments, Jock Straps and Swimwear G2M) all did great.  Morphs for both sexes have always done well for me.

    The really big male clothing sets that people want, the ones that take forever to make, those are a huge risk for anyone who isn't Stonemason or Luthbel.  Absolutely buy all their stuff.  They're awesome.  But I am not Stonemason or Luthbel; I know very well that I can't create assets so gorgeous Daz will take them on the first try; so I can only afford to even try a tuxedo, or a robe set, or an armor set for men once every year or so.

    Post edited by SickleYield on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001

    And, Well, to be honest, I don't think reality really enters too much into the clothing depicted in the store for ladies wear most of the time. So I don't think we should be limited too much to what 'what men really wear.'

    As far as it goes...look at 'high' fashion publications, big international fashion shows, etc...the store is tame in many areas.

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 16,965
    mjc1016 said:

    And, Well, to be honest, I don't think reality really enters too much into the clothing depicted in the store for ladies wear most of the time. So I don't think we should be limited too much to what 'what men really wear.'

    As far as it goes...look at 'high' fashion publications, big international fashion shows, etc...the store is tame in many areas.

    true but I don't tend to consider those sources as being representative of average daily fashion.

  • And, Well, to be honest, I don't think reality really enters too much into the clothing depicted in the store for ladies wear most of the time. So I don't think we should be limited too much to what 'what men really wear.'

    I'm using real life to refer to the type of clothing styles to explain the misperception that there's a dearth of male items. Take a look at swimsuits. The men's are pretty much the same shorts while women's have the one-piece, bikini, skirted-bottom, bandeau etc,. As the items in the store, you may not wear an ultra skympy outfit or naughty schoolgirl uniform in real life but that's just a matter of taste. Or in some cases, profession.

    mjc1016 said:

    Maybe that is what more vendors need to do...but, being one of the 'known' go to vendors for male clothing does help.  I think it's easy to get caught up in the 'that's what sells, so I need to make more of it'.

    Everyone always started from somewhere. I am no different. I never even consider myself as one of the known vendor. There are tons of talented vendors here and at Renderosity that are better than me. Runtimedna is like a hot bed for amazing vendors. But just because one vendor is well known while others are not, it should not discourage you or anyone from becoming one. I suggest focus on quality and originality instead. So If you already have great idea in mind for a product then go for it.

    Daz once claimed V4 was the most popular model on the planet, have they retracted that assessment? 

    Just about every company on the planet will claim that their product is the most popular and the bestest on the planet. I wish that claim was true then all vendors here would be millionaires. Fact is the poserdom is a very small pennyless niche compared to the million dollars 3D industry. Visit these sites - https://www.artstation.com/ - and - http://www.cgsociety.org/gallery/category/3d - and you'll probably find maybe only a handful with DAZ figures among thousands of images.

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