3Delight Surface and Lighting Thread

Kevin Sanderson · April 2014

Looks good, wowie! Is that End of Summer hair?

wowie · April 2014

Kevin Sanderson said:
Looks good, wowie! Is that End of Summer hair?

Yes. I employed a hack to get colored shadows without losing stand opacity by turning off shadows in the main hair figure and using a geometry shell to cast the shadows instead. You do need a shader with fantom features (US, US2).

There's some more info a few pages back about this trick, you can find it here - http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/554231/

Kevin Sanderson · April 2014

Thanks for the tips and link!

Mustakettu85 · June 2014

wowie said:

Well. There's also another alternative - don't use the same map on different slots (control/color). :)
What bugs me most about textures is that some control textures are set too dam dark. Makes them almost impossible to work with gamma correction enabled. You either have to edit the textures or use maxed out values for color and strength.
Oh yeah. Fluffy blond luminous hair achieved. :)

You're right, but there's already a lot of stuff on the market that uses the same maps in incompatible roles. People should be alerted about it, now that the DS community is (hopefully) moving towards linear workflow.

And yeah, I'm with you on that. I'm thinking about trying to "gamma" them out in the DS Image Editor - the slider goes way higher than 1, it may be useful to combat those nearly-black maps...

The blond looks awesome! Kinda makes me want to try my hand at something like that... even though I'm not fond of blondes LOL

-----

So, who's been experimenting with what lately?

I am getting a better and better grasp of the "scripted renderer" which is actually a way to set RiOptions, global RiAttributes and change hiders without resorting to editing RIB files manually.

I was experimenting with a proper two-pass photon mapping GI solution - there is a way to get one-pass photon mapping in DS even without that "scripted renderer", but it works weirdly. Actually, even when I forego the shader mixer Photon Mapper brick and set everything through scripting, it is still weird... It does not honour the RiOptions like "photon" "maxdiffusedepth" [10] , like it should - it uses the "maxdiffusedepth" Attributes instead. Moreover, 3Delight standalone crashes on trying to render RIBs that use one-pass photon mapping! So I decided to go for two-pass, which is documented to use the "maxdiffusedepth" attribute.

I wrote the simplest indirectdiffuse()-based shader ever - there is an "Indirect Camera" in the shader mixer, but I don't want to use it, it is somehow slow. I am not sure if it's still the best way to do GI in DS - you see, even when I explicitly set the "photonhitmode" RiAttribute to "shader" (which it should be, by default), when I view the resulting photon map in ptcview, I don't see photon colours =(( They are all white.
So I have to set the indirectdiffuse() hitmode to "shader", and I am not sure if it's the right way to do it: it does work faster with photon maps than with pure raytracing, but maybe it could be even faster, if only I could get photon colours right?.. Then I could set the light hitmode to "primitive" and have the photons determine the indirect light colour.

I also tested the path tracer - the "raytrace" hider (what a smart name, definitely not misleading LOL). I made a render script to use it without the progressive mode and with the same settings as the default hider (I don't care for the box filter enforced by the display!). I think it is seriously faster with pure raytracing than the default hider! Even with our old non-physical shaders.

Path tracer does not handle UberSurface "Translucency" well, though. It is understandable because it seems to be coded with the "reverse diffuse" technique which is a 100% cheat, and path tracing is about being physically correct. It does SSS well, so I am thinking about using it on hair instead of translucency...

The UberSurface "Occlusion" controls actually work for controlling any indirect lighting, whether we are doing photon mapping or path tracing.

Here are two renders... The Dawn one (dark hair) uses photon mapping with the default hider, with 2 diffuse bounces and one specular bounce; 41 minutes render time (8 mins to render that one final bucket containing her nose). The G2F one (blue hair) is from the path tracer, with 5 diffuse bounces and 1 specular bounce; 23 minutes render time. I fixed the exposure in an image editor, though, because I'm not used to setting up scenes for GI proper - it came out way too dark originally.

Mustakettu85 · July 2014

Okay, here's a new "discovery" of mine: just a few days ago, I used to think 3Delight does not do anything like irradiance/radiosity/whateverGI-ish caching (which is a nifty technique to speed up full GI, used, for instance, by Pixar's PRMan and Poser's Firefly).

But it does.

It's just that the folks at DNA Research haven't yet managed to update their documentation to reflect all the great new things about the "raytrace" hider.
http://www.3delight.com/en/modules/PunBB/viewtopic.php?pid=20802

In case anyone's interested, I'll try to explain how to enable this RiOption via the "scripted renderer".

And here's an obligatory super boring, zero-artistic-value test render of FW Danika in Merlin's Church, lit by a single spotlight with quadratic falloff and five diffuse bounces that the trace() shadeop takes care of (a GI light shader with basically one line of meaningful code, diligently copied from the 3Delight Maya GI Light coming with the standalone). Less than fifteen minutes render time, subsurface computations included (I'm using my own SSS shader; older ones like the Uber family don't have the special "irradiance" channel, so they may render slower and "less accurate", whatever it may mean - but as far as I have managed to see, US2 looks acceptable in well-lit scenes, at least).

The second boring render is good ole Victoria2 with her hi-res maps, some clothing and a plane under her feet to give bounce (the HDR map is a tdlmake-generated sky that does not have "ground"). UberSurface2 for skin, five bounces, render time about 5 min 30 s.

I have not tested the cache with UE2's GI mode, though, only with my light shader.

Takeo.Kensei · July 2014

I don't think that just setting the raytrace hider would make it a path tracer
You have to rewrite a render engine inside 3delight to get that

If you want some lecture and study, you could have a look at PBRT to get the principles, but that is C++ code

Side note : translucency shouldn't be used for thick surface. It is a technique that is designed for thin surfaces like leaves

Midnight_stories · July 2014

Have they done something to the transparency algorithm it seems to be rendering insanely fast even with Uber lighting it flies could it be ???? sorry if this has been answered before, it's just rendering 10X faster !

Takeo.Kensei · July 2014

midnight_stories said:
Have they done something to the transparency algorithm it seems to be rendering insanely fast even with Uber lighting it flies could it be ???? sorry if this has been answered before, it's just rendering 10X faster !

Not sure about 10x but I also had the feeling of speed increase on the few renders I made

I don't think DAZ did anything but constantly integrating newer 3delight versions, which could explain the speedup

That could also be explained by some shader rewrite from Omnifreaker but I don't know if that is the case. Hard to guess

MEC4D · July 2014

I think there was some changes since some of my older shaders do render blank .. so I had to replace them with the last Uber Surface (duf )

also under your shader = specular .. if you use texture maps for the specular color it slow down the rendering a lot compared to just color
the previously shaders for humans was to clumpy and delayed rendering , the updated with new sss speed up a lot but need little time for calculation.. the rendering time depends on everything so each scene and setup will be totally different for everyone . However I noticed changes in UE and shading that improved a lot and do render faster or maybe it is my new PC lol

Mustakettu85 · July 2014

Takeo.Kensei said:
I don't think that just setting the raytrace hider would make it a path tracer
You have to rewrite a render engine inside 3delight to get that

And this is exactly what they did.

The 'hidden' hider (REYES + raytracing) is what it is, but the 'raytrace' hider has been totally revamped (not just for the Maya/Softimage builds). The devs routinely refer to it as the 'path tracer' (you'd think they know what they coded there LOL), and they keep stressing that the docs reflect very few changes - and a lot of the manual is obsolete now, again, according to the devs. There's been a veritable revolution there.
Surely the best results will be achieved with new shaders, but given that the devs are moving towards having the renderer free you from most brain-wrecking stuff (with shadeops like trace() and bsdf() doing the real complex things behind the scenes), these shouldn't be that hard to write (check out the C sourcecodes for 3DelightMaterial for Maya etc, and also the 3Delight forums for Berto Durante's guidelines to implementing phys.plausible stuff, and, well, a lot of other things that have yet to find their way to the manual).

Basically, for most people who don't care for shader writing etc, it does not matter what exactly is there under the hood in the codename:'raytrace' hider. What is important is that it is
generally faster even with all the 'oldschool' DS shaders.

All I know is that it is different, it is awesome and I'm in love all over again. Now, if I ever manage to succeed in getting all those Maya 3Delight materials to work in DS, I'll probably take up dancing so as to express my joy =)

BTW Takeo, you might want to test the Grosjean SSS model (search the 3Delight forums for examples). It's interesting.

As for translucency, you're right. Now if only all content vendors managed to remember that.

The thing is, the same scene with the same shaders will render differently in two hiders (due to the fact that they're, like, two different renderers now). For me, the most striking change is reverse diffuse ("translucency"). For the 'raytrace' hider (even when it's technically running 'oldschool' shadeops), it needs to be properly balanced with actual diffuse.

Midnight_stories · July 2014

One thing I'm finding it hard to get my head around is the new PBR stuff. What you plug your maps into. What you get from programs like substance designer and dDo are 4 to 5 maps diffuse Gloss Normal Spec and AO. Trying to figure out how DS and poser interpreted the map is a nightmare the best I come with is Diffuse gets plugged into reflection color Gloss gets plugged into the reflection amount, AO into the Diffuse amount but I could be wrong it may be the Spec that gets plugged into that or the Specular itself. I throw my hands up while it looks great inside the program it's less than impressive in DS or Poser.

MEC4D · July 2014

I figured it out time ago since many of my last products use PBR maps
you need to use Uber Surface shader for that other way it will not working with regular shader to max

Diffuse = under diffuse
Specular = under under reflection color as it give the reflection color of the reflective surface
Glossy= under reflection strength for the right level of reflection set on to 50% when using AoA light or UE , 100% when using standard DS light

PBR are not about fake specular and glossy it is about the reflections base materials like in octane or other softwares .
If you want to use the fake specualr, plug the specualr maps into specular color and glossy into the strength of specular with the value of 100%
working great also in Poser :)
and if you want to have it as much impressive as in the program you need to build the scene for that so it reflect the way it does in that program .. empty space will give you nothing , and with each different light maps the effect will change , and I really love it
the previews in the program was cool but there are no shadings , just simple reflections

midnight_stories said:
One thing I'm finding it hard to get my head around is the new PBR stuff. What you plug your maps into. What you get from programs like substance designer and dDo are 4 to 5 maps diffuse Gloss Normal Spec and AO. Trying to figure out how DS and poser interpreted the map is a nightmare the best I come with is Diffuse gets plugged into reflection color Gloss gets plugged into the reflection amount, AO into the Diffuse amount but I could be wrong it may be the Spec that gets plugged into that or the Specular itself. I throw my hands up while it looks great inside the program it's less than impressive in DS or Poser.

Takeo.Kensei · July 2014

Mustakettu85 said:
Takeo.Kensei said:
I don't think that just setting the raytrace hider would make it a path tracer
You have to rewrite a render engine inside 3delight to get that

And this is exactly what they did.

The 'hidden' hider (REYES + raytracing) is what it is, but the 'raytrace' hider has been totally revamped (not just for the Maya/Softimage builds). The devs routinely refer to it as the 'path tracer' (you'd think they know what they coded there LOL), and they keep stressing that the docs reflect very few changes - and a lot of the manual is obsolete now, again, according to the devs. There's been a veritable revolution there.
Surely the best results will be achieved with new shaders, but given that the devs are moving towards having the renderer free you from most brain-wrecking stuff (with shadeops like trace() and bsdf() doing the real complex things behind the scenes), these shouldn't be that hard to write (check out the C sourcecodes for 3DelightMaterial for Maya etc, and also the 3Delight forums for Berto Durante's guidelines to implementing phys.plausible stuff, and, well, a lot of other things that have yet to find their way to the manual).

Basically, for most people who don't care for shader writing etc, it does not matter what exactly is there under the hood in the codename:'raytrace' hider. What is important is that it is
generally faster even with all the 'oldschool' DS shaders.

All I know is that it is different, it is awesome and I'm in love all over again. Now, if I ever manage to succeed in getting all those Maya 3Delight materials to work in DS, I'll probably take up dancing so as to express my joy =)

BTW Takeo, you might want to test the Grosjean SSS model (search the 3Delight forums for examples). It's interesting.

As for translucency, you're right. Now if only all content vendors managed to remember that.

The thing is, the same scene with the same shaders will render differently in two hiders (due to the fact that they're, like, two different renderers now). For me, the most striking change is reverse diffuse ("translucency"). For the 'raytrace' hider (even when it's technically running 'oldschool' shadeops), it needs to be properly balanced with actual diffuse.

OK I'll give it a try. If it already work I won't have to try to rewrite an engine inside 3dl :). Did you ask the devs to get the info?

About shader writing, I did the Grosjean least last year as well as some other thing. Even if there have been lots of new thing done in 3delight, everything is not always hassle free, because I have seen some Pixar functions that are not implemented inside 3delight and you may have to code them yourself if you want them or wait a bit

@Midnight : I suppose what you call PBR is substance designer PBR shader? I can't be a lot of help there as I don't have it and don't know how it works. I just downloaded the nDO beta last day. Don't know when I'll try it

The difference you have between DAZ and these products may be that the shaders are made differently. For nDO they have physically plausible shading and I guess from the name the PBR are too. From the nDO demo I have seen, the shading network could be very complex. If these are documented more or less, you could create them with shader mixer or poser material room to get a better render

Midnight_stories · July 2014

Mec4D said:
I figured it out time ago since many of my last products use PBR maps
you need to use Uber Surface shader for that other way it will not working with regular shader to max
Diffuse = under diffuse
Specular = under under reflection color as it give the reflection color of the reflective surface
Glossy= under reflection strength for the right level of reflection set on to 50% when using AoA light or UE , 100% when using standard DS light

PBR are not about fake specular and glossy it is about the reflections base materials like in octane or other softwares .
If you want to use the fake specualr, plug the specualr maps into specular color and glossy into the strength of specular with the value of 100%
working great also in Poser :)
and if you want to have it as much impressive as in the program you need to build the scene for that so it reflect the way it does in that program .. empty space will give you nothing , and with each different light maps the effect will change , and I really love it
the previews in the program was cool but there are no shadings , just simple reflections

midnight_stories said:
One thing I'm finding it hard to get my head around is the new PBR stuff. What you plug your maps into. What you get from programs like substance designer and dDo are 4 to 5 maps diffuse Gloss Normal Spec and AO. Trying to figure out how DS and poser interpreted the map is a nightmare the best I come with is Diffuse gets plugged into reflection color Gloss gets plugged into the reflection amount, AO into the Diffuse amount but I could be wrong it may be the Spec that gets plugged into that or the Specular itself. I throw my hands up while it looks great inside the program it's less than impressive in DS or Poser.

Thanks Mech !
That's more insight to it than I could track down on the net, I knew the lighting played a big part, so I will look at the environment a lot more now. Cheers !

MEC4D · July 2014

You welcome .. and don't forget that PBR is Physically based rendering .. PBR system is a combination of physically accurate lighting, shading, and properly calibrated art content something that DS or Poser do not offer at default but still you can get better results as it is more simple than you may think , and Uber Surface has all the option you need for your maps generated with dDo .. no need shader mixer as everything you need is the right reflection levels and reflection colors

Midnight_stories · July 2014

Mec4D said:
You welcome .. and don't forget that PBR is Physically based rendering .. PBR system is a combination of physically accurate lighting, shading, and properly calibrated art content something that DS or Poser do not offer at default but still you can get better results as it is more simple than you may think , and Uber Surface has all the option you need for your maps generated with dDo .. no need shader mixer as everything you need is the right reflection levels and reflection colors

I think a lot of vendor have missed this I've only see one using it at the moment so it's time to get the learning cap on. I'm getting too old for this LOL :)

MEC4D · July 2014

I still use my old dDo and nDo, I am waiting for the Megascans ..
PBR materials are so much simple than ray-traced shaders .. as it is based on the true world reflections only as everything in the world reflect light , you don't have to be mathematician to do that.. look around you and observe :)
Internet have a lot of settings and values to use for your setup .. like for example simple gold
it is not yellow .. it is black , but the yellow reflective color give it the golden appearance
so when you want true gold, you set the diffuse to black, and specular to the right yellow color ( values and charts can be find on the internet ) then the right reflection strength around 88% of white RGB: 220 220 220 and you have accurate surface
like for example in the image bellow

Albedo :Diffuse , actual color of the material
Microsurface= glossy strength , the level of reflectivity , always in gray scale
Reflectivity = reflections color
Chrome = mirror for example has black diffuse color and the same value of reflection color and glossy strength what is RGB: 255 white
when you learn the charts it will be much easy to make your setup
so next time you create maps in DDo you need to remember what type of material you use to recreate it in DS or Poser
and when you use maps then you don't have to worry about VALUES as it is already baked into your right maps to control the material shader
bellow just example of the charts
Material Value Charts

And you are never to old to learn new tricks! I

quote author="midnight_stories" date="1405146292"]

Mec4D said:
You welcome .. and don't forget that PBR is Physically based rendering .. PBR system is a combination of physically accurate lighting, shading, and properly calibrated art content something that DS or Poser do not offer at default but still you can get better results as it is more simple than you may think , and Uber Surface has all the option you need for your maps generated with dDo .. no need shader mixer as everything you need is the right reflection levels and reflection colors
I think a lot of vendor have missed this I've only see one using it at the moment so it's time to get the learning cap on. I'm getting too old for this LOL :)

Midnight_stories · July 2014

Wow some brilliant info there thanks!
See I've got to learn to crawl before I walk.
I have to learn the Shader mixer from scratch again.
Before I even attempt doing stuff like yours. I have
no idea what bricks to plugin to the different channel.
I just have to do the hard yards and go through all the forums and learn it.
It's a nightmare a person with half an idea is more dangerous than a person with no idea LOL!
I watched the substance designer video on PBR and it was ok but I need to watch it a few more times
before it sinks in.

Mustakettu85 · July 2014

Takeo.Kensei said:
OK I'll give it a try. If it already work I won't have to try to rewrite an engine inside 3dl :). Did you ask the devs to get the info?

I lurk at their forums where others asked =) The path tracer is also specified in the release notes for the standalone dating from Oct 2013, and we're already running a 2014 version in DS.
Takeo.Kensei said:

About shader writing, I did the Grosjean least last year as well as some other thing.

Did you have to code it yourself? They now included the model in the subsurface() shadeop, and they hint that it may become the new default soon. They are using it in all their Maya materials.
Here's a thread with Berto Durante's simple example:
http://www.3delight.com/en/modules/PunBB/viewtopic.php?pid=20540

Even if there have been lots of new thing done in 3delight, everything is not always hassle free, because I have seen some Pixar functions that are not implemented inside 3delight and you may have to code them yourself if you want them or wait a bit

Could you please give an example? Maybe I can find something on the forums. Like, I thought GI cache was not in 3Delight, but it's there... but not in the documentation yet.

Take a look at the code below, I'm posting my edits to the "Standard Example" scripted renderer files that I am using to work with the new hider and GI cache.

------

I decided to post my photon mapping kit. It's very much experimental (even though it follows the documentation to a "t", I'm still not sure it always works perfectly) and the installation is not straightforward, so I'd rather keep all the discussion of it here.

Get the archive:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/igbgaxgcg3jhavc/Kettu's_Photon_Mapping_Kit.zip

The installation instructions are in the text file.

-------

Now, my new favourite way to get GI! I prefer it over photon mapping, it's faster for me.

In the code block below, here's a brief how-to about using the "scripted renderer" to use the "raytrace" hider and GI cache. The commented-out instructions are for the user to follow, so please read them carefully =) The non-commented-out lines are for pasting into your renamed copies of the "Standard Example" scripts.

I tested UE2 bounce mode with the resulting render scripts, and it works well. Less than 15 mins with the same church test scene above (again, that's five diffuse bounces! Do not attempt it without the GI cache on, unless you have a few hours to spare =) ); there are small differences in the shading, but overall, it works.

So, you don't even need new shaders!

Hope this helps. Feel free to ask questions!


// Create new folders in these folders:
// 1) (your installation)\DAZStudio4\resources\Scripted Renderer\
// 2) (your installation)\DAZStudio4\scripts\support\DAZ\ScriptedRenderer\

// Copy corresponding .dsa scripts from the "Standard Example" folders

// Rename them - the first one to the name of your new folder,
// the second one - to an arbitrary name: you will refer to it
// in the first script!

// Find this line in the FIRST script:
// var g_sRenderScript = "support/DAZ/ScriptedRenderer/Standard Example/StandardExampleRenderScript.dsa"
// and change the path to point to your SECOND script

// ***************************** //

// add this to the FIRST script,
// into the function buildRenderProperties()
// You may need to remove the line breaks or not... they're there so as 
// not to ruin the forum's formatting.

 oProperty = addIntProperty( sPropertyGroup, "Max Diffuse Bounce Depth", 
"Max Diffuse Bounce Depth", 0, 16, 5, undefined, true, false, false, undefined );
 oProperty = addIntProperty( sPropertyGroup, "Max Specular Bounce Depth", 
"Max Specular Bounce Depth", 0, 16, 1, undefined, true, false, false, undefined );

 
// You may also want to edit the DEFAULTS of other properties to your liking
// because DS resets the slider positions to defaults!! 
// whenever you save the render, reload the script or close and reopen DS
// The default value is the third number (5 and 1 in the cases above)

// ***************************** //

// add the following to the SECOND script,
// into the BEAUTY PASS after Renderer.riBegin( sRibPath );


// Use the shiny new "raytrace" hider
// Enable or disable progressive rendering: [ 0 ] disables, [ 1 ] enables

aTokens = [ "integer progressive" ];
aParams = [ 0 ];
Renderer.riHider( "raytrace", aTokens, aParams );

// Enable GI cache for extra fast GI
// Option "trace" "int diffuseraycache" 1

aTokens = [ "int diffuseraycache" ];
aParams = [ 1 ];
Renderer.riOption( "trace", aTokens, aParams );

// Diffuse bounce attribute 
var nDepth = RenderOptions.rayTraceDepth;
// Find the "Max Diffuse Bounce Depth" property
oProperty = oOwner.findProperty( "Max Diffuse Bounce Depth" );
// If the property was found and it's an int property
if( oProperty && oProperty.className() == "DzIntProperty" ){
 // Set the max ray depth according to the value of the property
 nDepth = oProperty.getValue();
}

// Set the Max Diffuse Bounce Depth
// Attribute "trace" "maxdiffusedepth" [ n ] 


aTokens = [ "integer maxdiffusedepth" ];
aParams = [ nDepth ];
Renderer.riAttribute("trace", aTokens, aParams);


// Specular bounce attribute
var nDepth = RenderOptions.rayTraceDepth;
// Find the "Max Specular Bounce Depth" property
oProperty = oOwner.findProperty( "Max Specular Bounce Depth" );
// If the property was found and it's an int property
if( oProperty && oProperty.className() == "DzIntProperty" ){
 // Set the max ray depth according to the value of the property
 nDepth = oProperty.getValue();
}


// Set the Max Specular Bounce Depth
// Attribute "trace" "maxspeculardepth" [ n ] 

aTokens = [ "integer maxspeculardepth" ];
aParams = [ nDepth ];
Renderer.riAttribute("trace", aTokens, aParams);


// You can do basically anything that involves RiOptions and global RiAttributes
// in this fashion!

Kevin Sanderson · July 2014

Thanks for that script and tips, Mustakettu85! I've been starting to dip my toes in. I'm not a coder, so it's challenging. But it looks doable and maybe it's something I can figure out. Even though I have Octane, I prefer to stay in Studio for most things and Octane can take as long as Studio or longer to render to get an acceptable similar render when you start loading up options. I always feel that people don't push 3Delight as much as we can already with the plug ins and features that are available. The 3Delight devs were talking last year about substantial speed boosts for some of the things people have mentioned in this thread, which are now in the DAZ Studio version.

MEC4D · July 2014

It depends of the GPU power Kevin , so it will be different from person to person , I just got new PC ..it takes seconds to render on full load , not even to compare , when I overclock slightly my CPU it render double fast in DS too , so rendering time depends on many factors and it is not always the program :)

Kevin Sanderson said:
. Even though I have Octane, I prefer to stay in Studio for most things and Octane can take as long as Studio or longer to render to get an acceptable similar render when you start loading up options.

Kevin Sanderson · July 2014

True, Cath. I am trying to figure out ways of not spending more money on hardware for a while, though. ;)

My CUDA card is an older GTX 470, 1.28GB VRAM, and my PC for DAZ renders has an AMD 8350 8-core CPU with 16GB. All these tips help speed things up for what I have. Last time I was cutting edge like you was 1998 or so.

wowie · July 2014

Mec4D said:

PBR materials are so much simple than ray-traced shaders .. as it is based on the true world reflections only as everything in the world reflect light , you don't have to be mathematician to do that.. look around you and observe :)
Internet have a lot of settings and values to use for your setup .. like for example simple gold
it is not yellow .. it is black , but the yellow reflective color give it the golden appearance
so when you want true gold, you set the diffuse to black, and specular to the right yellow color ( values and charts can be find on the internet ) then the right reflection strength around 88% of white RGB: 220 220 220 and you have accurate surface
like for example in the image bellow
Albedo :Diffuse , actual color of the material
Microsurface= glossy strength , the level of reflectivity , always in gray scale
Reflectivity = reflections color
Chrome = mirror for example has black diffuse color and the same value of reflection color and glossy strength what is RGB: 255 white
when you learn the charts it will be much easy to make your setup
so next time you create maps in DDo you need to remember what type of material you use to recreate it in DS or Poser
and when you use maps then you don't have to worry about VALUES as it is already baked into your right maps to control the material shader
bellow just example of the charts
Material Value Charts

Thanks. I wish more vendor making props and MATs follow your example.

I posted this on Szark's thread, but I gather it will also be useful here:
http://seblagarde.wordpress.com/2011/08/17/feeding-a-physical-based-lighting-mode/
http://seblagarde.wordpress.com/2012/04/30/dontnod-specular-and-glossiness-chart/
http://seblagarde.wordpress.com/2014/04/14/dontnod-physically-based-rendering-chart-for-unreal-engine-4/

Some materials creation principles gleamed from Disney's principle BRDF
http://disney-animation.s3.amazonaws.com/library/s2012_pbs_disney_brdf_notes_v2.pdf

* Most materials have an albedo of 0.4 (in linear space, not sRGB space). Comes out at about 160, 160, 160 in sRGB space (with 100% diffuse strength). There's some albedo values in the first link above for reference. There's also some specular reflectivity values there.
* Diffuse roughness and specular glossyness is linked - rough diffuse materials, less gloss and vice versa.
* Rough materials have much stronger fresnel effect. Smooth/glossy materials have less.
* The more reflective a material, the less the diffuse.
* As noted by Mec4D, specular and reflection values shouldn't exceed 100% * 192,192,192 (generally the same as 88% * 220,220,220).

This doesn't take into account the presence of a coat layer.

I tested UE2 bounce mode with the resulting render scripts, and it works well. Less than 15 mins with the same church test scene above (again, that's five diffuse bounces! Do not attempt it without the GI cache on, unless you have a few hours to spare =) ); there are small differences in the shading, but overall, it works.

So, you don't even need new shaders!

I do think five bounces is overkill. I'm thinking about more in the ilnes of the inverse square law, so 3 bounces should be relatively enough. How long does it take to render with reflective materials? I find using the indirect light camera allows specular bounces and render times with reflective materials is somewhat tolerable (ie 16 minutes compared to 12 minutes relying on UberArea lights and ambient light).

The biggest gripe about it is I don't see a way of saving the photon map (effectively the same as GI cache).

Edit: Read the script and notice there's specular there, so I removed the question about specular bounces.

Mustakettu85 · July 2014

Kevin Sanderson said:
Thanks for that script and tips, Mustakettu85! I've been starting to dip my toes in. I'm not a coder, so it's challenging. But it looks doable and maybe it's something I can figure out. Even though I have Octane, I prefer to stay in Studio for most things and Octane can take as long as Studio or longer to render to get an acceptable similar render when you start loading up options. I always feel that people don't push 3Delight as much as we can already with the plug ins and features that are available. The 3Delight devs were talking last year about substantial speed boosts for some of the things people have mentioned in this thread, which are now in the DAZ Studio version.

You're most welcome, Kevin! 3Delight totally rocks, and it's severely underappreciated in the hobbyist community.

I'm not much of a coder, either; I had basic training as part of my uni course years ago, and I dabbled in Visual Basic as a hobby, but I always found it challenging... so what I'm saying is "if I can do it, everyone can" =)

The biggest issue is the lack of documentation. But I'm willing to share whatever I've managed to figure out, so feel free to ask questions if something isn't clear.

MEC4D · July 2014

GTX470 is not that fast , I used time ago GTX460 what actually was faster than GTX470 and on path-tracing it was as slow as in DS especially with glass shaders .. so you are right

I got myself this season i7-4820K 3.74 GHz 10M Cache with water cooling and usually overclocking it to 4.6 GHz when I render a lot of stuff and the difference in speed is huge..
and for GPU GTX 760 2GB ( the prices dropped already to $239 ) using MSI afterburner for overclocking to insane speed , I put 6 fans with water cooling to keep the temperatures steady and I am really glad .. , I pay for everything around $1.500 as that was my budged , also plan to add one more card with SLI support to take care of the system while I render in octane .
For now I am glad with it , it is sooooo much better than my 3 years old PC
but over time you get used to it and think sometimes why it is so slow lol

Kevin Sanderson said:
True, Cath. I am trying to figure out ways of not spending more money on hardware for a while, though. ;)
My CUDA card is an older GTX 470, 1.28GB VRAM, and my PC for DAZ renders has an AMD 8350 8-core CPU with 16GB. All these tips help speed things up for what I have. Last time I was cutting edge like you was 1998 or so.

frank0314 · July 2014

I don't use the overclocking on mine cause in most cases it voids the warranty and you will have a premature life span most the time.

MEC4D · July 2014

I change my PC each 2 max 3 years so for me it is ok and all of them still working until I trow them away
the new processor come with boost so 4GHz is covered in 2 years warranty
ensure the life span of 40.000 hours .. more than I need so premature life span is not an issue for me even if..
however I overclock only if I need it for heavy work to save the energy consumption

Frank0314 said:
I don't use the overclocking on mine cause in most cases it voids the warranty and you will have a premature life span most the time.

wowie · July 2014

Kevin Sanderson said:
Thanks for that script and tips, Mustakettu85! I've been starting to dip my toes in. I'm not a coder, so it's challenging. But it looks doable and maybe it's something I can figure out. Even though I have Octane, I prefer to stay in Studio for most things and Octane can take as long as Studio or longer to render to get an acceptable similar render when you start loading up options. I always feel that people don't push 3Delight as much as we can already with the plug ins and features that are available. The 3Delight devs were talking last year about substantial speed boosts for some of the things people have mentioned in this thread, which are now in the DAZ Studio version.

I'm with Mustakettu85 - 3delight is a very capable renderer and DNAResearch is doing some great work on the raytracer.

If I remember correctly, the render below only took about 3 minutes on my Core i7 4770K under DS 4.6 with progressive rendering, even with all that transmapped surfaces. This is with my latest skin and hair setup for UberSurface2. Even plain Lambert Blinn Phong (LBP), shading and biased rendering can look very good once you understand how to setup lighs/materials correctly (with a linear workflow).

Skin texture is V4 Elite Amy. I just love all those skin details. :)

Kevin Sanderson · July 2014

Wowie, it looks real good! And what nice render times you've been getting.

frank0314 · July 2014

Mec4D said:
I change my PC each 2 max 3 years so for me it is ok and all of them still working until I trow them away
the new processor come with boost so 4GHz is covered in 2 years warranty
ensure the life span of 40.000 hours .. more than I need so premature life span is not an issue for me even if..
however I overclock only if I need it for heavy work to save the energy consumption
Frank0314 said:
I don't use the overclocking on mine cause in most cases it voids the warranty and you will have a premature life span most the time.

We usually do the same. I get a new one one year then the wife gets a new one the next then we repeat it. I just bought one that I won't need to upgrade for several years. Only thing that I may increase is the RAM to 64GB instead of my 32GB I have now.

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