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OT Update 2: Nvidia & AMD about to lose a lot of sales from cryptominers?

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  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,854
    edited March 2018

    [bleedin' Cloudlfare interruption]

    ...as long as people think they can get money for little physical effort such as though mining, it will keep GPU prices artificially high.  Cryptocurrencies on their own didn't really much concern me as I'm too poor to invest in anything. It is this one bad "side effect" we are dealing with that has me irritated.

    As to the condition of ex- mining cards, I've read enough about rigs running in less than desirable environments (such as in hot, dusty, and/or damp conditions).  That will take a toll on a card. The mechanical parts (cooling system) are the most vulnerable. Should those have been over-stressed, they would be highly prone to breaking down and if that occurs, the card is pretty much toast.  I wouldn't even risk 100$ on that.

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,854
    Daywalker Designs said:
    agent unawares said:
    Peter Fulford said:
    j cade said:
    Peter Fulford said:
    ghosty12 said:

     And there is likely not to be any relief until sometime in the 3rd or 4th quarter of this year..

    Sounds about right for the supply chain to respond to this demand. Can't just magic the resources for new cards into being.

    IfWhen the whole crypto lark turns out to be a bubble that pops, there'll be glut of new cards to fill render boxes with. But then we'll be in competition with the gamers, drat them!

     

    FTFY

    Heh, well I try and avoid being too speculative because it can cause, er, the thread count to be disrupted. ;-)

    Interesting, though, how reluctant the money jugglers are to short Bitcoin, et al. It's like everyone just knows it's all a bubble but isn't going risk anything on such a sure bet.

    It's really hard to short Bitcoin.

     

    I think it's happened exactly one time in all the years Bitcoin has been in existence.

    ...actually Bitcoin had a couple spikes and bursts since it appeared.  Most occurred when it wasn't as ridiculously high in value as it is today (below 1,000$).  There was also that big "cyber-heist" a few years ago.

  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 3,679

    I'm wondering what the effects of GPU cost will have on Daz. Consider there are always new threads with new users looking to build a new machine for their Daz hobby. Then they find out that a good GPU might cost twice what it did before. That has to hurt things just a bit.  For now, you have plenty of diehards who have been around a while to keep it going, but the effects must be visible at some point.

    IMO mining is a destructive practice for many industries and people. It places more strain on the electrical grid when you have farming machines with 8+ GPUs running 24/7. There are science research firms that cannot obtain GPUs for their work, and when they are able to get them, the costs have gone way up.

    Like this article here, though it has a clickbait title, mentions that it will cost them an EXTRA $32,000 because of price inflation. Do you know where that money comes from?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43056744

    So miners are even hurting scientific research because of their rampant and excessive greed. I have no love whatsoever for such people. It is the ultimate get rich quick scheme, now with a tech twist. At least mining has killed off some of those old "make money..." commercials that played constantly. I bet those companies advertising that bought mining rigs. And so are the people who bought into that stuff.

    It makes me think of Dire Straights "Money for Nothing". You don't even need to change many of the words.

    Now look at them miners, that's the way you do it

    You build the machine for that cryto-currency

    That aint workin', that's the way you do it

    Money for nothing, chicks for free

  • Daywalker DesignsDaywalker Designs Posts: 3,586
    outrider42 said:

    I'm wondering what the effects of GPU cost will have on Daz. Consider there are always new threads with new users looking to build a new machine for their Daz hobby. Then they find out that a good GPU might cost twice what it did before. That has to hurt things just a bit.  For now, you have plenty of diehards who have been around a while to keep it going, but the effects must be visible at some point.

    IMO mining is a destructive practice for many industries and people. It places more strain on the electrical grid when you have farming machines with 8+ GPUs running 24/7. There are science research firms that cannot obtain GPUs for their work, and when they are able to get them, the costs have gone way up.

    Like this article here, though it has a clickbait title, mentions that it will cost them an EXTRA $32,000 because of price inflation. Do you know where that money comes from?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43056744

    So miners are even hurting scientific research because of their rampant and excessive greed. I have no love whatsoever for such people. It is the ultimate get rich quick scheme, now with a tech twist. At least mining has killed off some of those old "make money..." commercials that played constantly. I bet those companies advertising that bought mining rigs. And so are the people who bought into that stuff.

    It makes me think of Dire Straights "Money for Nothing". You don't even need to change many of the words.

    Now look at them miners, that's the way you do it

    You build the machine for that cryto-currency

    That aint workin', that's the way you do it

    Money for nothing, chicks for free

    SETI, Folding@Home (I've actually contributed CPU time to both at different times) and other similar, beneficial projects are being hit hard by this, unless you've been involved with them for a while now.
  • agent unawaresagent unawares Posts: 3,513
    Daywalker Designs said:
    outrider42 said:

    I'm wondering what the effects of GPU cost will have on Daz. Consider there are always new threads with new users looking to build a new machine for their Daz hobby. Then they find out that a good GPU might cost twice what it did before. That has to hurt things just a bit.  For now, you have plenty of diehards who have been around a while to keep it going, but the effects must be visible at some point.

    IMO mining is a destructive practice for many industries and people. It places more strain on the electrical grid when you have farming machines with 8+ GPUs running 24/7. There are science research firms that cannot obtain GPUs for their work, and when they are able to get them, the costs have gone way up.

    Like this article here, though it has a clickbait title, mentions that it will cost them an EXTRA $32,000 because of price inflation. Do you know where that money comes from?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43056744

    So miners are even hurting scientific research because of their rampant and excessive greed. I have no love whatsoever for such people. It is the ultimate get rich quick scheme, now with a tech twist. At least mining has killed off some of those old "make money..." commercials that played constantly. I bet those companies advertising that bought mining rigs. And so are the people who bought into that stuff.

    It makes me think of Dire Straights "Money for Nothing". You don't even need to change many of the words.

    Now look at them miners, that's the way you do it

    You build the machine for that cryto-currency

    That aint workin', that's the way you do it

    Money for nothing, chicks for free

     

    SETI, Folding@Home (I've actually contributed CPU time to both at different times) and other similar, beneficial projects are being hit hard by this, unless you've been involved with them for a while now.

    https://www.newswire.com/news/bio-research-loves-curecoin-gamers-and-speculators-to-overtake-1-team-19890448

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,854
    outrider42 said:

    I'm wondering what the effects of GPU cost will have on Daz. Consider there are always new threads with new users looking to build a new machine for their Daz hobby. Then they find out that a good GPU might cost twice what it did before. That has to hurt things just a bit.  For now, you have plenty of diehards who have been around a while to keep it going, but the effects must be visible at some point.

    IMO mining is a destructive practice for many industries and people. It places more strain on the electrical grid when you have farming machines with 8+ GPUs running 24/7. There are science research firms that cannot obtain GPUs for their work, and when they are able to get them, the costs have gone way up.

    Like this article here, though it has a clickbait title, mentions that it will cost them an EXTRA $32,000 because of price inflation. Do you know where that money comes from?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43056744

    So miners are even hurting scientific research because of their rampant and excessive greed. I have no love whatsoever for such people. It is the ultimate get rich quick scheme, now with a tech twist. At least mining has killed off some of those old "make money..." commercials that played constantly. I bet those companies advertising that bought mining rigs. And so are the people who bought into that stuff.

    It makes me think of Dire Straights "Money for Nothing". You don't even need to change many of the words.

    Now look at them miners, that's the way you do it

    You build the machine for that cryto-currency

    That aint workin', that's the way you do it

    Money for nothing, chicks for free

    ...yes

    (love the lyrics)

  • Ghosty12Ghosty12 Posts: 2,080
    edited March 2018
    outrider42 said:

    I'm wondering what the effects of GPU cost will have on Daz. Consider there are always new threads with new users looking to build a new machine for their Daz hobby. Then they find out that a good GPU might cost twice what it did before. That has to hurt things just a bit.  For now, you have plenty of diehards who have been around a while to keep it going, but the effects must be visible at some point.

    IMO mining is a destructive practice for many industries and people. It places more strain on the electrical grid when you have farming machines with 8+ GPUs running 24/7. There are science research firms that cannot obtain GPUs for their work, and when they are able to get them, the costs have gone way up.

    Like this article here, though it has a clickbait title, mentions that it will cost them an EXTRA $32,000 because of price inflation. Do you know where that money comes from?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43056744

    So miners are even hurting scientific research because of their rampant and excessive greed. I have no love whatsoever for such people. It is the ultimate get rich quick scheme, now with a tech twist. At least mining has killed off some of those old "make money..." commercials that played constantly. I bet those companies advertising that bought mining rigs. And so are the people who bought into that stuff.

    It makes me think of Dire Straights "Money for Nothing". You don't even need to change many of the words.

    Now look at them miners, that's the way you do it

    You build the machine for that cryto-currency

    That aint workin', that's the way you do it

    Money for nothing, chicks for free

    Yeah am wondering as well, but unfortunately this problem is going to affect everyone.. With the costs of videocards the way they are the amount of people buying a new computer could drop massively, and in most cases those people who would of bought a new PC for everything including gaming are buying consoles instead for their gaming fix..

    Post edited by Ghosty12 on
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,085

    It really ticks me off that the computation involved is nothing more than makework.

    Like, all that computational grind that could be going to something useful, like medical research.

    But no.

    So eager for that stupid bubble to burst.

  • Peter FulfordPeter Fulford Posts: 1,325
    Oso3D said:

    It really ticks me off that the computation involved is nothing more than makework.

    Like, all that computational grind that could be going to something useful, like medical research.

    But no.

    Yeah, there’s no just value in rendering Vickies in temples; a complete waste of cycles. 

    Oh, wait...

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,581

    The effect on the environment is one of my main concerns as well of this stupid craze.

    Imagine a super advanced alien race looking down on our planet and seeing how we waste our precious energy, they will conclude the human race is mad, and no loss to remove the Earth to make way for a new hyperspace way.

  • bluejauntebluejaunte Posts: 1,990

    Real money destroys the environment as well Think about all those ATMs, banks, mining cinc ore and printing pennies and paper money, hauling all that stuff around. Crypto uses electricity which will continue to get cleaner, mining hardware will get more efficient.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-07/bitcoin-is-greener-than-its-critics-think#footnote-1512668309251

  • Ghosty12Ghosty12 Posts: 2,080
    edited March 2018
    bluejaunte said:

    Real money destroys the environment as well Think about all those ATMs, banks, mining cinc ore and printing pennies and paper money, hauling all that stuff around. Crypto uses electricity which will continue to get cleaner, mining hardware will get more efficient.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-07/bitcoin-is-greener-than-its-critics-think#footnote-1512668309251

    Might want to tell that to the people of Iceland who probably have the cleanest electricity generation are having power issues due to the cryptomining craze..  The authorities there are concerned there may not be enough power to supply their populace.. 

    http://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/cryptocurrency-mining-in-iceland-is-using-so-much-energy-the-electricity-may-run-out

    https://www.pcgamer.com/icelandic-bitcoin-centres-will-use-more-energy-than-countrys-homes-this-year-says-power-firm/

    http://icelandreview.com/news/2017/05/17/power-outage-large-part-iceland

    And those countries where the electricity is produced by less clean methods, the cryptomining craze is having an effect too..

    http://fortune.com/2017/12/15/bitcoin-dirty-secret-energy-use-pollution/

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jan/17/bitcoin-electricity-usage-huge-climate-cryptocurrency

    Post edited by Ghosty12 on
  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 3,679

    Another real concern with bitcoin is that its anonymous nature is exploited for a lot of dirty deeds. Which may or may not have been done dirt cheap. I am not usually one to call that out when a technology has other legitimate uses. But in the case of bitcoin, I really don't see a positive to balance this out. The only case where I can see any positive is if someone is disabled from working, then bitcoin gives them a chance to make some money on the side. But making money on the side might cancel some benefits, so I don't know. Some countries are creating their own cryptocurrencies to circumvent sanctions, like Russia and Brazil. Dude, even Atari is creating its own bitcoin.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/02/15/gaming-pioneer-atari-becomes-latest-company-join-cryptocurrency/

    Tom's has been keeping track of some prices. This article also has a link to a buyer's guide in this current market. 

    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ethereum-effect-graphics-card-prices,34928.html

    The buyer's guide is pretty similar to what I suggested to someone. It can be a better deal to buy a prebuilt PC. You can also look up buying bundled deals, where retailers bundle cards with several other parts like motherboards or monitors. You may be able to score a card and sell the extra parts if you just want to upgrade.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,854

    ...being retired, disabled and on a fixed income, I still have no interest in being involved in the mining craze.  I also do not have the funds to purchase and devote hardware to playing the mining game. As I mentioned above, I built my system for the purpose of creating illustrations. If I can get a few commissions now and then, great, that's gravy.  Even having acquired a second system, I have no intention of wasting its resources for mining as it allows me to work on new scenes or other projects while rendering on my older system.

    I looked at the bundled deals and they are still more than I can afford.  True I could sell the components I don't need, however the up front cost is the tough t justify on the hopes of recouping enough of the cost selling the other components (and having to deal with registering a sellers account on a site like ebay, re-packaging, shipping, etc).

    Part of me is feeling it will be a while before we see "reasonable" prices again. Mining is not just making GPU cards hard to get, but memory chips which, as I mentioned, are in short supply as well.  Should mining continue to grow in popularity it will place a greater demand on the availability of memory chips as well.  This will not only cause card prices to go up even more, but likely, the cost of system memory as well.

    I read a very good commentary this morning that rightfully mentioned cryptomining is not some form of pyramid scheme, however it went on to say that mining has replaced such scams as the latest get "rich for little effort" fads. True it takes a bit more of an investment than a phonebook, ream of letter paper, box of envelopes roll of stamps, box of Avery address labels as well as either an AT  computer with word processor software and printer or typewriter and 5$ roll of dimes for photocopying, but that doesn't seem to be deterring people.

  • GreymomGreymom Posts: 1,139

    Ack.   Asus now has a motherboard designed for cryptomining, with an optimized BIOS for "Mining Mode".   It supports 16, yes 16 GPUs via an array of PCIEx1 connectors.  So all you have to do is find 16 high-end GPU's.....

  • agent unawaresagent unawares Posts: 3,513
    Greymom said:

    Ack.   Asus now has a motherboard designed for cryptomining, with an optimized BIOS for "Mining Mode".   It supports 16, yes 16 GPUs via an array of PCIEx1 connectors.  So all you have to do is find 16 high-end GPU's.....

    Dear god I've never wanted anything more in my life.

  • deathbycanondeathbycanon Posts: 1,227
    kyoto kid said:

    ...being retired, disabled and on a fixed income,

    We're in the same boat, although I'm retired because I'm disabled. I was halfway to saved for a 1080 when it went up $300 and I can't really justify the extra cost because some people found the digital version of the Beanie Baby. So I'm stuck with my 750ti and since the Daz upgrade things are just not running well. Luckily the weather is warming up and I can go back to photography for a while and hopefully prices will come down by next winter. 

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,854

    ...I hear you., Same here, crippling arthritis (two types) which is getting worse .  I can barely raise my right leg (getting socks on is a real challenge) and my left is now going that way. Thank the maker for slip on shoes.  My left shoulder is pretty much gone (can maybe raise my arm 20° above horizontal and that's it) and am relegated to using one finger on my right hand for typing (used to be a touch typist as well as classical pianist, and organist).  Yeah so living on SS which combined with the recent GPU price bloat is extremely discouraging.

    As I mentioned I was putting away for a 1070, though really need a 1080 Ti (crikey maybe even a P5000), as I create very "heavy" (in polycount and texture) scenes and look to render in larger resolution formats and very high quality (which eats memory for brekkie). However realistically, about all I can (could) consider scraping up the cash on my ultra lean budget for is (was) a standard 1070.  That would handle about 75% of the scenes I create which is reasonable.

    Just got off a discussion on Nvidia GPUs and mining over on the forums at Tom's.  It really does look bleak as Nvidia apparently has been pretty mum on the GTX development front after pushing back release of their next generation cards.  My gut feeling is due to the memory shortage production of their high priced pro level products (Quadro, Tesla) might have been given a priority over their consumer/enthusiast line.  Go to their site and you can readily get any Quadro or the the Titan V (there is a 5 card per order limit for any Quadro), that is, if you have the big zlotys to afford one.

    As I've mentioned I have for the most part abandoned Iray because of the extreme render times and gone back to 3DL.  When scene render tests can take upwards of an hour or more, it becomes pretty discouraging.

    At least you have something else to fall back on, as the photography I did (and still have the equipment for) uses that old stuff called film, and not only is that harder to find these days, but so are processing labs due to the toxic chemicals involved and disposal permits required. No way can I afford a digital rig that is on par with my kit.

  • TaozTaoz Posts: 10,258

    It's also affecting PSU prices now:

    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/why-high-capacity-psu-prices-are-rising,36593.html

  • Ghosty12Ghosty12 Posts: 2,080
    Taoz said:

    It's also affecting PSU prices now:

    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/why-high-capacity-psu-prices-are-rising,36593.html

    WTH, this is getting out of hand at this rate one will need to take out a huge personal loan with high interest to be able to afford a new PC.. And well at this rate the for gamers anyway, the console market is about to explode as angry PC owners move to consoles..

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,854

    ...all the more I want to see this entire craze auger into the ground at high speed.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,581
    ghosty12 said:
    Taoz said:

    It's also affecting PSU prices now:

    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/why-high-capacity-psu-prices-are-rising,36593.html

    WTH, this is getting out of hand at this rate one will need to take out a huge personal loan with high interest to be able to afford a new PC.. And well at this rate the for gamers anyway, the console market is about to explode as angry PC owners move to consoles..

    I would assume most consoles have some sort of GPU chips in them, since they are designed for running high quality 3D games.

  • dragotxdragotx Posts: 1,147
    ghosty12 said:
    Taoz said:

    It's also affecting PSU prices now:

    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/why-high-capacity-psu-prices-are-rising,36593.html

    WTH, this is getting out of hand at this rate one will need to take out a huge personal loan with high interest to be able to afford a new PC.. And well at this rate the for gamers anyway, the console market is about to explode as angry PC owners move to consoles..

    And it's coming at a terrible time for PC gaming too. The PC gaming market was finally coming out of it's slump and I've seen more new converts in the last 6 months than I have in the last several years.  We're finally getting decent ports from the consoles again, and more and more developers are back to designing their games around PC then porting them to Console instead of the other way around.  I really hate buying prebuilt machines (i've been building my own for 20 years) but my system is old enough that when I need to do any core upgrade it'll require a full rebuild.  If these prices stay like this, then chances are good the only cost effective way to get the GPU I want will be to buy a prebuilt system.  I'm kicking myself for being fiscally responsible and not getting a 1080TI when they first came out.  I justified it by saying I don't really need the extra VRAM, but more and more often I'm plowing right through the memory on my 1070.  This mining craze is setting back PC gaming by years, and there are a lot of people that stand to be destroyed when the bubble bursts.

  • GreymomGreymom Posts: 1,139
    agent unawares said:
    Greymom said:

    Ack.   Asus now has a motherboard designed for cryptomining, with an optimized BIOS for "Mining Mode".   It supports 16, yes 16 GPUs via an array of PCIEx1 connectors.  So all you have to do is find 16 high-end GPU's.....

    Dear god I've never wanted anything more in my life.

    The MB is the ASUS B250 MINING EXPERT LGA 1151.   It is on sale this week for $189.  Now if I just had $26,000 for the graphics cards.....

  • GreymomGreymom Posts: 1,139
    Taoz said:

    It's also affecting PSU prices now:

    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/why-high-capacity-psu-prices-are-rising,36593.html

    Yeah, the ones I was looking at are up at least 30%.   Grumble Grumble.

     

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,854
    edited March 2018

    ...yeah if you use server grade CPUs, memory, and multi socket MBs you need a big PSU to support it.

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • GreymomGreymom Posts: 1,139
    kyoto kid said:

    ...yeah if you use server grade CPUs, memory, and multi socket MBs you need a big PSU to support it.

    And they keep the room nice and toasty....

  • GreymomGreymom Posts: 1,139

    Ah, apparently some group in Iceland has stolen 600 bitcoin mining severs (and 600 graphics cards).   The police are watching for large changes in power usage in case they try to set them up and run them.

    CNET has the story.

     

  • Peter FulfordPeter Fulford Posts: 1,325
    Greymom said:

    Ah, apparently some group in Iceland has stolen 600 bitcoin mining severs (and 600 graphics cards).   The police are watching for large changes in power usage in case they try to set them up and run them.

    They'd be better watching the ships in dock, if it's not too late already.

  • Ghosty12Ghosty12 Posts: 2,080
    Greymom said:

    Ah, apparently some group in Iceland has stolen 600 bitcoin mining severs (and 600 graphics cards).   The police are watching for large changes in power usage in case they try to set them up and run them.

    CNET has the story.

     

    Not surprised at all, what with two multimillion dollar thefts of bitcoins was only a matter of time before something like this happened..

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