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Is there any reason to upgrade to Genesis 8?

Leonides02Leonides02 Posts: 1,379
in The Commons

All right, so I'm a relatively new DAZ hobbyist (started in December) so this is my first "upgrade" cycle. Initially, was both annoyed and excited when V8 was released. Annoyed because I've already spent waaay too much money on DAZ, but excited because I figured it would be a big step. I mean, V7 is leaps and bounds better than V6 (in my opinon, at least).

I bought V8, but haven't rendered with her yet. But.... so far I'm unimpressed.

The renders I've seen don't look any better than G7. In fact, to me, many look significantly worse. I may be biased because I've spent so much money on G7, but besides the PowerPose expressions, have any of you found it to be a significant improvement over the highly-detailed G7 figures?

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Comments

  • JackFosterJackFoster Posts: 143
    edited August 2017

    Honestly, I'm not sure how this generation isn't simply a significant downgrade over the previous one. The features are backwards compatibility, the expressions, and the horrible A pose? Is there more than that?

    As for the expressions, they could've easily just added them to the previous generation, since they're just HD morphs. And G8 is no more backwards compatible past G3 than G3 is, so there's no upgrade there.

    In return for these improvements (?) we get yet another lower resolution figure than the previous generation, and have to start all over again with content. It's like they're not even trying anymore.

    Post edited by JackFoster on
  • agent unawaresagent unawares Posts: 3,513
    edited August 2017

    Best and most immediately obvious part is the expressions, I think.

    However bending is also improved. The separate eyelashes and more characters starting to come with fibermesh brows instead of textured ones is nice. Eye geometry is much better.

    EDIT: Of course a lot of renders right after a launch are out of the box and not as nice as renders from the previous figure with every artist's individual tweaks built up over years. That's normal.

    Post edited by agent unawares on
  • MistaraMistara Posts: 38,675

    for the 'A' pose mebbe?

    yanno g2 has 6 tongue parts.  g3, g8 has 4

    dexterity smiley points.  tee hee  d&d score cards for the generations

  • Daywalker DesignsDaywalker Designs Posts: 3,586
    JackFoster said:

    Honestly, I'm not sure how this generation isn't simply a significant downgrade over the previous one. The features are backwards compatibility, the expressions, and the horrible A pose? Is there more than that?

    As for the expressions, they could've easily just added them to the previous generation, since they're just HD morphs. And G8 is no more backwards compatible past G3 than G3 is, so there's no upgrade there.

    In return for this improvements (?) we get yet another lower resolution figure than the previous generation, and have to start all over again with content. It's like they're not even trying anymore.

    Most of the lost polygon count is in the separation of the eyelash mesh from the main model mesh. And while they probaly could, in theory, have updated the older base mesh, as was done with Victoria 4, many people were expecting the new generation to come out in June of this year, just as it has every two years since the original Genesis figure came out. As for the pose change, unless you're a content creator, you don't realize how much of a pain in the backside the T-pose really is when if comes to properly modeling certain kinds of clothing items.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 109,465
    daywalker03 said:
    JackFoster said:

    Honestly, I'm not sure how this generation isn't simply a significant downgrade over the previous one. The features are backwards compatibility, the expressions, and the horrible A pose? Is there more than that?

    As for the expressions, they could've easily just added them to the previous generation, since they're just HD morphs. And G8 is no more backwards compatible past G3 than G3 is, so there's no upgrade there.

    In return for this improvements (?) we get yet another lower resolution figure than the previous generation, and have to start all over again with content. It's like they're not even trying anymore.

    Most of the lost polygon count is in the separation of the eyelash mesh from the main model mesh. And while they probaly could, in theory, have updated the older base mesh, as was done with Victoria 4, many people were expecting the new generation to come out in June of this year, just as it has every two years since the original Genesis figure came out. As for the pose change, unless you're a content creator, you don't realize how much of a pain in the backside the T-pose really is when if comes to properly modeling certain kinds of clothing items.

    Adding the brows to Victoria 4 was possible as it was a Poser figure, with the geometry belonging to each body part and morphs loaded per body part - so a new eyebrows bone didn't break anything. Adding or removing geometry from a weight-mapped figure would break existing morphs as the geometry belongs to the figure node, and the total vertex count and order must be preserved.

  • agent unawaresagent unawares Posts: 3,513
    edited August 2017
    Richard Haseltine said:
    daywalker03 said:
    JackFoster said:

    Honestly, I'm not sure how this generation isn't simply a significant downgrade over the previous one. The features are backwards compatibility, the expressions, and the horrible A pose? Is there more than that?

    As for the expressions, they could've easily just added them to the previous generation, since they're just HD morphs. And G8 is no more backwards compatible past G3 than G3 is, so there's no upgrade there.

    In return for this improvements (?) we get yet another lower resolution figure than the previous generation, and have to start all over again with content. It's like they're not even trying anymore.

    Most of the lost polygon count is in the separation of the eyelash mesh from the main model mesh. And while they probaly could, in theory, have updated the older base mesh, as was done with Victoria 4, many people were expecting the new generation to come out in June of this year, just as it has every two years since the original Genesis figure came out. As for the pose change, unless you're a content creator, you don't realize how much of a pain in the backside the T-pose really is when if comes to properly modeling certain kinds of clothing items.

    Adding the brows to Victoria 4 was possible as it was a Poser figure, with the geometry belonging to each body part and morphs loaded per body part - so a new eyebrows bone didn't break anything. Adding or removing geometry from a weight-mapped figure would break existing morphs as the geometry belongs to the figure node, and the total vertex count and order must be preserved.

    I like G8 but this doesn't make much sense. They could easily have released conformers for G3 because that's what they did for G8's brows and lashes. It was already possible to remove G3's existing lashes through surfaces.

    Post edited by agent unawares on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 42,132
    daywalker03 said:
    JackFoster said:

    Honestly, I'm not sure how this generation isn't simply a significant downgrade over the previous one. The features are backwards compatibility, the expressions, and the horrible A pose? Is there more than that?

    As for the expressions, they could've easily just added them to the previous generation, since they're just HD morphs. And G8 is no more backwards compatible past G3 than G3 is, so there's no upgrade there.

    In return for this improvements (?) we get yet another lower resolution figure than the previous generation, and have to start all over again with content. It's like they're not even trying anymore.

    Most of the lost polygon count is in the separation of the eyelash mesh from the main model mesh. And while they probaly could, in theory, have updated the older base mesh, as was done with Victoria 4, many people were expecting the new generation to come out in June of this year, just as it has every two years since the original Genesis figure came out. As for the pose change, unless you're a content creator, you don't realize how much of a pain in the backside the T-pose really is when if comes to properly modeling certain kinds of clothing items.

    ...what about simply saving the default figure in the "A" pose?
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,579

    none of it makes sense to me quite frankly least of all less compatibility with other applications.

  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 2,904

    There are some nice subtle improvements with G8F, the HD expressions being the most noticable. Whether or not they are worth the upgrade is purely a personal thing. I'm a bit on the fence as to the value of this upgrade. I did upgrade, and I am purchasing the "needed" things to make G8F valuable to me (morphs, etc.). The biggest plus with G8F is the backward compatibility with the base G3F UV's, so many of the texture sets will work with G8F. As others have noted, many of the improvements could have been implemented as an update to G3, but doing so still would have triggered the need to re-issue, re-purchase many products.

    The whole A Pose vs T Pose has been around a long time. There are advantages and disadvantages to both, and both require JCM's to address maximum joint movement/rotation, and one of the biggest arguments against the A pose is the extreme texture stretching when the arms are above the head. But possibly the main reason for going to the A  pose was to improve content creation, which would result in more content/sales??

    TBH, I was hoping for more from G8, but some of the new "mystery" improvements/features for DS that have been eluded to may require some unseen changes in G8 (I can hope can't I). I think it is important to keep in mind that the funding for the development of DS comes from the sales of content, so introducing new figures with even seemingly minor improvements is the best way for DAZ to ensure continued cash flow. One big plus for me with the release of G8 is that earlier versions will begin to receive even greater discounts. There are still a lot of things for earlier generations that I am interested in, but also some great stuff for G8 too.

    It's interesting how people always forget that the old content still works when a new generation comes out. You can even use the new shaders on older content to make it look better in renders. Bottom line, just do what you thing is best for what you do with DS

  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 2,904
    kyoto kid said:
    daywalker03 said:
    JackFoster said:

    Honestly, I'm not sure how this generation isn't simply a significant downgrade over the previous one. The features are backwards compatibility, the expressions, and the horrible A pose? Is there more than that?

    As for the expressions, they could've easily just added them to the previous generation, since they're just HD morphs. And G8 is no more backwards compatible past G3 than G3 is, so there's no upgrade there.

    In return for this improvements (?) we get yet another lower resolution figure than the previous generation, and have to start all over again with content. It's like they're not even trying anymore.

    Most of the lost polygon count is in the separation of the eyelash mesh from the main model mesh. And while they probaly could, in theory, have updated the older base mesh, as was done with Victoria 4, many people were expecting the new generation to come out in June of this year, just as it has every two years since the original Genesis figure came out. As for the pose change, unless you're a content creator, you don't realize how much of a pain in the backside the T-pose really is when if comes to properly modeling certain kinds of clothing items.

     

    ...what about simply saving the default figure in the "A" pose?

    If you are truly starting with the A pase, you need JCM's specifically for that pose. Saving the figure in an A Pose will not change the underlying JCM's or address any problems with content creation for when the ams are down all the way.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,579
    DustRider said:
    kyoto kid said:
    daywalker03 said:
    JackFoster said:

    Honestly, I'm not sure how this generation isn't simply a significant downgrade over the previous one. The features are backwards compatibility, the expressions, and the horrible A pose? Is there more than that?

    As for the expressions, they could've easily just added them to the previous generation, since they're just HD morphs. And G8 is no more backwards compatible past G3 than G3 is, so there's no upgrade there.

    In return for this improvements (?) we get yet another lower resolution figure than the previous generation, and have to start all over again with content. It's like they're not even trying anymore.

    Most of the lost polygon count is in the separation of the eyelash mesh from the main model mesh. And while they probaly could, in theory, have updated the older base mesh, as was done with Victoria 4, many people were expecting the new generation to come out in June of this year, just as it has every two years since the original Genesis figure came out. As for the pose change, unless you're a content creator, you don't realize how much of a pain in the backside the T-pose really is when if comes to properly modeling certain kinds of clothing items.

     

    ...what about simply saving the default figure in the "A" pose?

    If you are truly starting with the A pase, you need JCM's specifically for that pose. Saving the figure in an A Pose will not change the underlying JCM's or address any problems with content creation for when the ams are down all the way.

    well I fit Fuse, Skyrim and other A posed clothes mesh I imported to previous figures using the Transfer Utility by baking joint rotations first then reposing that clothes and converting to prop for t posed figures.

    So it was doable.

  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 2,904
    th3Digit said:

    none of it makes sense to me quite frankly least of all less compatibility with other applications.

    +1

    The loss of the good body/muscle topology from G2 to G3 has never made sense to me either (and the explanation that this made G3 more compatible with game engines and other 3D apps doesn't really make sense either, last time I checked, Morph3d was still using G2 as the base ????). I'm sure it all has to do with some "magic" equation that sales and marketing have cooked up. Keeping the figures compatible with Carrara would have meant more sales, but the work involved (to even make them just work like Genesis and Genesis 1) must have been too much (though as we now know, it could have been easily fixed). But, there is no doubt that as users, many facets af the grand plan for the future of DAZ products is well beyond what we can see 

    surprise

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,579
    DustRider said:
    th3Digit said:

    none of it makes sense to me quite frankly least of all less compatibility with other applications.

    +1

    The loss of the good body/muscle topology from G2 to G3 has never made sense to me either (and the explanation that this made G3 more compatible with game engines and other 3D apps doesn't really make sense either, last time I checked, Morph3d was still using G2 as the base ????). I'm sure it all has to do with some "magic" equation that sales and marketing have cooked up. Keeping the figures compatible with Carrara would have meant more sales, but the work involved (to even make them just work like Genesis and Genesis 1) must have been too much (though as we now know, it could have been easily fixed). But, there is no doubt that as users, many facets af the grand plan for the future of DAZ products is well beyond what we can see 

    surprise

    it was actually a lot easier to fix than many realise, the Carrara forum on Renderosity the reason is revealed.

  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 2,904
    th3Digit said:
    DustRider said:
    kyoto kid said:
    daywalker03 said:
    JackFoster said:

    Honestly, I'm not sure how this generation isn't simply a significant downgrade over the previous one. The features are backwards compatibility, the expressions, and the horrible A pose? Is there more than that?

    As for the expressions, they could've easily just added them to the previous generation, since they're just HD morphs. And G8 is no more backwards compatible past G3 than G3 is, so there's no upgrade there.

    In return for this improvements (?) we get yet another lower resolution figure than the previous generation, and have to start all over again with content. It's like they're not even trying anymore.

    Most of the lost polygon count is in the separation of the eyelash mesh from the main model mesh. And while they probaly could, in theory, have updated the older base mesh, as was done with Victoria 4, many people were expecting the new generation to come out in June of this year, just as it has every two years since the original Genesis figure came out. As for the pose change, unless you're a content creator, you don't realize how much of a pain in the backside the T-pose really is when if comes to properly modeling certain kinds of clothing items.

     

    ...what about simply saving the default figure in the "A" pose?

    If you are truly starting with the A pase, you need JCM's specifically for that pose. Saving the figure in an A Pose will not change the underlying JCM's or address any problems with content creation for when the ams are down all the way.

    well I fit Fuse, Skyrim and other A posed clothes mesh I imported to previous figures using the Transfer Utility by baking joint rotations first then reposing that clothes and converting to prop for t posed figures.

    So it was doable.

    No arguments there, it is doable. and they could have just updated G3 to an A pose ...... but ......

    (If there was a lot of complaining among content creators about the T pose, then this may have been the reasoning (just speculation, no real knowledge one way or the other), and new JCM's would be needed to address those porblems. Of course the A pose could have also been added to increase the difference form G3 to G8. Whatever the reasoning, G8 is here, and now we just have to decide to buy .... or not.)

  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 2,885

    I was planning to buy in to Genesis 8, but the financial timing didn't work out for any of the figures so far, and if they continue to release figures in the late half of the month only, I foresee that being a bigger detriment to my buying in to G8 than whether or not G8 is an improvement (a thought I'm somewhat neutral on)

    The primary reason was that I didn't buy in to G3 immediately (for a variety of reasons) and while I don't exactly regret it, it did mean that the supply of new shinies slowed to a trickle, and G3 had a much better variety of clothing support than G2 (imo) which I then felt guilty about not supporting.  When G8 was revealed to share UV's with G3 (which was one of those many reasons I'd delayed on it.  $25 per UV for converting was/is steeper than I'm willing to spend) I really wanted to make the switch, since then I could keep buying new shinies and take full advantage of old G3 characters... but it was not to be.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 109,465
    agent unawares said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    daywalker03 said:
    JackFoster said:

    Honestly, I'm not sure how this generation isn't simply a significant downgrade over the previous one. The features are backwards compatibility, the expressions, and the horrible A pose? Is there more than that?

    As for the expressions, they could've easily just added them to the previous generation, since they're just HD morphs. And G8 is no more backwards compatible past G3 than G3 is, so there's no upgrade there.

    In return for this improvements (?) we get yet another lower resolution figure than the previous generation, and have to start all over again with content. It's like they're not even trying anymore.

    Most of the lost polygon count is in the separation of the eyelash mesh from the main model mesh. And while they probaly could, in theory, have updated the older base mesh, as was done with Victoria 4, many people were expecting the new generation to come out in June of this year, just as it has every two years since the original Genesis figure came out. As for the pose change, unless you're a content creator, you don't realize how much of a pain in the backside the T-pose really is when if comes to properly modeling certain kinds of clothing items.

    Adding the brows to Victoria 4 was possible as it was a Poser figure, with the geometry belonging to each body part and morphs loaded per body part - so a new eyebrows bone didn't break anything. Adding or removing geometry from a weight-mapped figure would break existing morphs as the geometry belongs to the figure node, and the total vertex count and order must be preserved.

    I like G8 but this doesn't make much sense. They could easily have released conformers for G3 because that's what they did for G8's brows and lashes. It was already possible to remove G3's existing lashes through surfaces.

    Well, there are already add-ons for that - I thought you were suggesting removing the existing lashes, which would have the issues I listed.

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 12,017

    I love the Genesis 8 line! The improved bends and expressions are great. It's a nice step closer to more photo-realism with the characters. I also really like that they've made it much easier for content creators to make morphs and content for the figures.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 42,132
    ...as I am still rendering on the CPU and don't have a boatload of physical memory, HD morphs are something I avoid.
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,097

    Big reason is if you hope to sell stuff with Daz because of the whole 'latest shiny' effect.

    For anything else, I prefer Genesis or G2.

  • drafter69_696b99e42bdrafter69_696b99e42b Posts: 348

    I can't speak for others but for me being able to purchase the Michael 8 Pro bundle at such a low price was well worth it.   I guess you might ask yourself if you think you will use him enough to warrent the cost.    Since my artwork is all male (adult in nature) there was no question that I wanted him for my use. 

  • Leonides02Leonides02 Posts: 1,379

    Folks keep mentioning the expressions and bends, but are they really that much better? I mean, the expressions I get from G7 are (at least to my untrained eye) pretty evocative. I never noticed a bending issue, either.

    I don't know, I guess because I've heavily upgraded my G7 "fleet" with tons of custom morphs, fibermesh brows and body hair, fantastic textures, etc... G8 just seems like a huge and expensive step down for no reason. 

    I wanted something new (cough, soft body, cough, good mocop / animation import, cough) not an expression system that could / should have been an upgrade to G7.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,579

    ........and HD expression morphs, not gonna be able to export those as Blendshapes to Max Maya or other lesser softwares are we (good thing the Genesis 3 ones actually work for iClone which I use)

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 42,132
    ...+1. Especially if you have any of the vendor head morph kits and the last GenX update. I transferred all the G2 expressions to G3 and they work very well.
  • AllenArtAllenArt Posts: 7,175

    As for me, just because I've invested in G8 doesn't in any way mean I'm going to suddenly stop using Genesis 3, Genesis 2 or Genesis (or V4 and M4 if the situation calls for it). For instance, I have clothing favorites from every generation and usually it's just easier to use the clothing on the figure it was made for. So I have scenes that have more than one generation of figures in it. I like that...makes them look less like "relatives" that way ;).

    :D

    Laurie

  • CerragCerrag Posts: 256

    The only reason I got G8 was because JoeQuick made Ms Hedgehog for Genesis 8 Female (Thanks JoeQuick!).  I probably own almost all the creatures sold on DAZ so for me, it was all about a new unique creature.  Otherwise though, I most likely would'nt have purchased it.  BTW if there are any content creators in this thread, please make more creatures for the G8 line!   ;D

  • MistaraMistara Posts: 38,675
    edited August 2017
    kyoto kid said:
    ...as I am still rendering on the CPU and don't have a boatload of physical memory, HD morphs are something I avoid.

     

    if it was possible to bake to a bump map ...  sigh - my win jing smiley

     

    Post edited by Mistara on
  • Orpheus13Orpheus13 Posts: 274
    divamakeup said:

    I love the Genesis 8 line! The improved bends and expressions are great. It's a nice step closer to more photo-realism with the characters. I also really like that they've made it much easier for content creators to make morphs and content for the figures.

    I'm new and discover it all, but seriously G8 looks a ton better than nearly all there was before, except if you want to go for a less realistic approach maybe.
  • Leonides02Leonides02 Posts: 1,379
    Orpheus13 said:
    divamakeup said:

    I love the Genesis 8 line! The improved bends and expressions are great. It's a nice step closer to more photo-realism with the characters. I also really like that they've made it much easier for content creators to make morphs and content for the figures.

     

    I'm new and discover it all, but seriously G8 looks a ton better than nearly all there was before, except if you want to go for a less realistic approach maybe.

    Orpheus, could you give an example? I really don't see that at all... A ton better than G7? We had near-photorealism with G7 already. 

     

  • Orpheus13Orpheus13 Posts: 274
    th3Digit said:

    ........and HD expression morphs, not gonna be able to export those as Blendshapes to Max Maya or other lesser softwares are we (good thing the Genesis 3 ones actually work for iClone which I use)

    If you use IClone why use Daz3 at all and not just Character Creator? It looks more intuitive and very high quality, although much more expensive.
  • Leonides02Leonides02 Posts: 1,379
    Orpheus13 said:
    th3Digit said:

    ........and HD expression morphs, not gonna be able to export those as Blendshapes to Max Maya or other lesser softwares are we (good thing the Genesis 3 ones actually work for iClone which I use)

     

    If you use IClone why use Daz3 at all and not just Character Creator? It looks more intuitive and very high quality, although much more expensive.

    The CC for iClone is nowhere near the quality / quantity of DAZ figures. 

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