Who said Blender was hard?

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  • bluejauntebluejaunte Posts: 974
    MDO2010 said:
    RorrKonn said:

    #pad 5 gets u in & out of perspective view so.

    Another thing that actually bothers me. Lots of people don't have a numpad anymore, me included. I'd like to stay as close to default key bindings but in this case I just can't. Granted, this is a case where you could say it's not a weakness of Blender but a weakness of my keyboard laugh

    Who is lots of people? I don't know anyone who doesn't have a numeric keypad except for some people with very small light laptops (which they don't use for 3D work anyway). I don't think I've ever seen a desktop computer that didn't come with a keyboard with a keypad. I just did a quick Google search and then searched on Amazon and every result on the first page came with a keyboard that included a number pad.

    https://www.google.ch/search?q=tenkeyless+keyboard&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbq6mXoYDbAhVEKFAKHTBRC54Q_AUICigB&biw=1621&bih=1077

    Pretty common these days. There are even smaller form factors too. More ergonomic to use because you can type with straight arms and not have the mouse too far to the right. My desk is also filled with a tablet in front and a 3d mouse to the left so it's kinda crammed. And of course people use laptops for 3d work.

     

  • MDO2010MDO2010 Posts: 1,432
    MDO2010 said:
    RorrKonn said:

    #pad 5 gets u in & out of perspective view so.

    Another thing that actually bothers me. Lots of people don't have a numpad anymore, me included. I'd like to stay as close to default key bindings but in this case I just can't. Granted, this is a case where you could say it's not a weakness of Blender but a weakness of my keyboard laugh

    Who is lots of people? I don't know anyone who doesn't have a numeric keypad except for some people with very small light laptops (which they don't use for 3D work anyway). I don't think I've ever seen a desktop computer that didn't come with a keyboard with a keypad. I just did a quick Google search and then searched on Amazon and every result on the first page came with a keyboard that included a number pad.

    https://www.google.ch/search?q=tenkeyless+keyboard&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbq6mXoYDbAhVEKFAKHTBRC54Q_AUICigB&biw=1621&bih=1077

    Pretty common these days. There are even smaller form factors too. More ergonomic to use because you can type with straight arms and not have the mouse too far to the right. My desk is also filled with a tablet in front and a 3d mouse to the left so it's kinda crammed. And of course people use laptops for 3d work.

     

    Yeah - I didn't say they didn't exist, I was just arguing that it's not the standard. Few computers come that way unless special ordered, but you and Robert both have good points and I am convinced that a number of people are changing out their keyboards for ones that work better for them and don't have those keys. I still think it's a minority of computer users, but I am convinced that it's a significant minority.

    And I know people do 3D on laptops, because I do (no space for a desktop and I like to be able to move around and work in different rooms of my house depending on my mood and the weather). My laptop does have a full sized keyboard with number keypad built in, but I ordered it that way and I know laptops have moved away from that design due to weight and size considerations.

  • bluejauntebluejaunte Posts: 974

    Yeah, I don't have any numbers on how common they are but they've been around for a while. I must have had various keyboards without numpads for 10 years at least. This may be worth reading:

    https://blog.forrestthewoods.com/why-your-keyboard-is-bad-for-your-body-40376fcec8c5

  • Robert FreiseRobert Freise Posts: 2,051

    Had a friend who bought one and a seperate number pad so that she could have the number pad on the left instead of the right

  • Takeo.KenseiTakeo.Kensei Posts: 1,139
    Mendoman said:
    marble said:

    We have been a litle hesitant to step in as there did seem to be an element of genuine discussion, but it does seem that the tiem has come for people who have made their decision not to use Blender to move on to another thread and leave this ne those who do use it or who are considering its use.

    I agree with the proviso that being critical of some features of Blender should not result in removal of the posts. I use Blender out of financial necessity and, while there are aspects that drive me nuts, I am very glad it is there and it is free. I come to this thread to see how others use it and when some people complain about some quirk, a workaround is often proposed. This is helpful to occasional users like me. Otherwise, you are quite right in saying that blanket dismissal should be discouraged.

    By the way, I'd love to see more discussion of interaction between DAZ Studio and Blender for things like sculpting morphs, rendering a scene in Blender (Eevee looks exciting) and animating figures (preferably with DAZ rigging). I wouldn't know where to start with some of those subjects.

    I really don't know much about animating, so can't really help there, but there's really nice script here in Daz forums to move scenes and render them in Blender. "Support" thread is here: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/2877/mcjteleblender-daz-studio-scenes-animations-w-blender-s-cycles-engine . There you can find script/plugin, that does most of the heavy lifting.

     

    Also 2.8 update is not only about Eevee ( I admit, it looks and feels really cool and seems to steal all the thunder currently ), but also Cycles is getting improvements as well: https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Source/Render/Cycles/Roadmap . Microdisplacement, IES lighting and cube map rendering all sound interesting news to me.

     

    Here's one more page that some may find interesting also: https://code.blender.org/2016/10/asset-management-and-pipeline/ The one thing that really won me over to Daz world, was the ease of posing. The leap from makehuman/blender combo to G3/DS was just unreal. Now maybe we finally get a pose library functionality in Blender too. I assume there's probably still some way to go to reach DS level ease of use, but it's a start. And yes, a real working material library would be a really nice addition. Of course you can already kind of create your own libraries, but it's just not very easy to use, when you have to append those materials between blend files without previews etc.

    Blender has a Pose Library functionnality since forever. You can use it when you select a skeleton

    BTW latest buildbot has a 3D View navigation widget

  • marblemarble Posts: 3,041

    Not sure whether this is the right thread to post this but I happened across this while browsing. Looks impressive even though it is still experimental. Maybe an alternative to dForce for some?

    https://www.blendernation.com/2018/01/18/modeling-cloth-addon-available-experimentation/

  • MendomanMendoman Posts: 202
    edited August 8

    I've been working with a beach scene for some time now, and as we all know, Blender's fluid simulation is kinda outdated for large scale projects. I've tried Realflow, and it seems really good, but unfortunately it's out of my price range. Then I found this new FLIP Fluids addon for Blender ( https://www.blendernation.com/2018/05/03/add-on-flip-fluids ;). I've tried to Google more info about it, but there's not much yet, so I was wondering if anybody here has some experience of that one yet?

    Post edited by Mendoman on
  • VyusurVyusur Posts: 1,289
    RorrKonn said:

    #pad 5 gets u in & out of perspective view so.

    Another thing that actually bothers me. Lots of people don't have a numpad anymore, me included. I'd like to stay as close to default key bindings but in this case I just can't. Granted, this is a case where you could say it's not a weakness of Blender but a weakness of my keyboard laugh

    As many other people, I have Apple keyboard without numpad. Blender has a numpad emulation checkbox in it's input settings for this kind of keyboards.

     

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  • RorrKonnRorrKonn Posts: 397
    edited August 8

    I don't know why Blender can't just have a navagation cube like DAZ

    Post edited by RorrKonn on
  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 1,871
    edited August 9

    Like this??

    Default Blender 2.8 UI. It looks like Learning Blender is something I will finally do.

    Blender 2.8.JPG
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    Post edited by DustRider on
  • RorrKonnRorrKonn Posts: 397

    Killer news !!! :) 

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 9,807
    DustRider said:

    Like this??

    Default Blender 2.8 UI. It looks like Learning Blender is something I will finally do.

    That looks good, the 2.8 UI didn't look like that a few months ago.

  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 1,871

    This UI is really "intuitive". They have done away with the backwards mouse clicks (I'm guessing for those that are used to it, they can change it back in preferences), and you have the option to either click on the setting on the left to make a given tool persistent for direct manipulation of an object in the view-port (like I did in the example image with rotation), or you can use the control tools in the rotate, translate, zoom the camera in the upper right of the view-port. Haven't played with it much yet because I have too many other things to do right now, but it is a huge improvement to be able to navigate using intuition/experience from other software and not needing to find a tutorial to just rotate an object of move the camera.

    DustRider said:

    Like this??

    Default Blender 2.8 UI. It looks like Learning Blender is something I will finally do.

    That looks good, the 2.8 UI didn't look like that a few months ago.

     

  • NathNath Posts: 1,182
    DustRider said:

    Like this??

    Default Blender 2.8 UI. It looks like Learning Blender is something I will finally do.

    That looks good, the 2.8 UI didn't look like that a few months ago.

    Great, just when I finally know my way around the old interface laugh

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 9,807

    It's a shame they got rid of the backwards mouse clicks because anybody that actually had spent more than 5 minutes actually using Blender knows that those backwards mouse clicks are instrumental in averting multiple control-Z undos and also helped to increase productive workflow. While I like the new look I will kept the backwards mouse clicks.

  • MDO2010MDO2010 Posts: 1,432
    edited August 10

    It's a shame they got rid of the backwards mouse clicks because anybody that actually had spent more than 5 minutes actually using Blender knows that those backwards mouse clicks are instrumental in averting multiple control-Z undos and also helped to increase productive workflow. While I like the new look I will kept the backwards mouse clicks.

    As of the August 10th build of the 2.8 Alpha the default is still right-click select. But the setting to change it is easy to find in the user preferences (Edit > User Preferences > Input > and change the Select With option in the left column).

    Nath said:
    DustRider said:

    Like this??

    Default Blender 2.8 UI. It looks like Learning Blender is something I will finally do.

    That looks good, the 2.8 UI didn't look like that a few months ago.

    Great, just when I finally know my way around the old interface laugh

    I'm really liking the interface overhaul for 2.8 and for the most part everything seems to still do pretty much what I expect it to. Some things are in different spots but they are fairly logical spots and things are definitely a lot more consistently laid out now. I really recommend downloading the latest alpha and playing around (the only downside is that not every feature is completely implemented in the alpha and most add-ons won't work until after the Beta, but they are literally putting up new builds every day now as the beta approaches). smiley

    The only thing they have done that I don't like is that the "A" shortcut used to be a toggle - hit it once to select all, hit it again to unselect all, but now it just selects all and you have to do alt-A to deselect all. The change makes sense and fits with their project of making things more consistent in the new minimal keymap default, I just find it mildly annoying since I do that all the time. frown

    On the other hand, the new quick menu is going to be awesome! Right-click on any tools or commands you use all the time and you can add them to your quick menu, then just hit Q to bring up a list of the things you added for quick access. It's mode specific too, so you have a different quick menu in object mode than you do in edit mode. No more searching for Grid Fill  - I can just add it to my quick menu and access it instantly when I need it.

    Post edited by MDO2010 on
  • Had a friend who bought one and a seperate number pad so that she could have the number pad on the left instead of the right

    That's not a bad idea could do that with a normal keyboard as you can put as many inputs as you want on a PC !

    And it makes more sense to have it on the left !

  • As someone who has spent years using the pre-2.8 interface, it's going to be hard work getting used to the 2.8 one.  Dare I say 2.8 is not intuitive, as we seem to equate this to "it's not what I am used to"? 

    The fact that A no longer toggles (de)select everything is killing me.  And making Alt-A the 'deselect all' shortcut tramples all over Alt-A playing animations.

    All the effort put into learning how to use layers/render layers properly will have to be re-spent to learn 'collections' and 'views', which have some way to go yet before being equally functional in my view.  Likewise the toolshelf opened by T seems to have diminished in functionality - I will have to find where all the stuff that used to appear there has gone.

    I'll be switching off all the widgets that take up valuable screen space because I won't use them.  The thing I dislike most about Daz Studio is the number of mouse miles expended in moving to the widgets to rotate/pan around the scene!

    The day Blender forces me to left-click to select my head will explode.

    There will be compensations but it's not going to be easy.

  • ebergerlyebergerly Posts: 2,384

     

    The day Blender forces me to left-click to select my head will explode.

     

    But doesn't every other application you've ever used force you to use left-click to select? All the word processors and text editors. All the spreadsheets. All the image editors. Facebook/Messenger. All the browsers. Every other 3D app (DAZ Studio, Poser, etc.). The list is unending.

    Yeah, I suppose there's a technical difference in the effects of the Blender select vs. every other select, but I'm not sure where the head exploding comes in. I've built the left-select muscle memory over decades, probably like most other users.  

  • MDO2010MDO2010 Posts: 1,432
    edited August 11

    As someone who has spent years using the pre-2.8 interface, it's going to be hard work getting used to the 2.8 one.  Dare I say 2.8 is not intuitive, as we seem to equate this to "it's not what I am used to"? 

    The fact that A no longer toggles (de)select everything is killing me.  And making Alt-A the 'deselect all' shortcut tramples all over Alt-A playing animations.

    All the effort put into learning how to use layers/render layers properly will have to be re-spent to learn 'collections' and 'views', which have some way to go yet before being equally functional in my view.  Likewise the toolshelf opened by T seems to have diminished in functionality - I will have to find where all the stuff that used to appear there has gone.

    I'll be switching off all the widgets that take up valuable screen space because I won't use them.  The thing I dislike most about Daz Studio is the number of mouse miles expended in moving to the widgets to rotate/pan around the scene!

    The day Blender forces me to left-click to select my head will explode.

    There will be compensations but it's not going to be easy.

    Yeah, there are definitely things to get used to. And I agree about turning the widgets off, I'll be doing the same, but I'm happy to see them added if it means I don't have to read any more complaints about not having them. wink

    As always though Blender's keymaps are still totally customizable so you can put ones that really annoy you back how they were, and the old keymap is still available via a dropdown on the splash screen if you don't want to do that.

    I think that I must have been the only person using the old screen layouts though. I found them incredibly useful and had a bunch of custom ones set up. Obviously I can recreate those as workspaces now but having to go click on the tabs to get to them instead of being able to quickly cycle through via control+left/right arrow is going to be annoying for a while.

    I do think that overall things are in more logical places in 2.8 and I bet that it won't take very long for those of us who've been using Blender for a while to get used to them.

    Post edited by MDO2010 on
  • ebergerly said:

     

    The day Blender forces me to left-click to select my head will explode.

     

    But doesn't every other application you've ever used force you to use left-click to select? All the word processors and text editors. All the spreadsheets. All the image editors. Facebook/Messenger. All the browsers. Every other 3D app (DAZ Studio, Poser, etc.). The list is unending.

    Yeah, I suppose there's a technical difference in the effects of the Blender select vs. every other select, but I'm not sure where the head exploding comes in. I've built the left-select muscle memory over decades, probably like most other users.  

    The use of right-click to select when looking at the Blender interface is as ingrained now as using the hotkeys that I use.  Faced with other interfaces, the muscle memory is different.  Context sensitive I guess.  Choice is fine, but I don't know why you would force all the established users to re-program their muscle memory.  That includes those using it professionally, relying on it for their income.  The illogicality of that is what would explode my head, not so much any inablility to adapt eventually.  The other changes in 2.8 I assume will have an upside making them worth the effort; I can't see any upside for established users to switching to left-click for select.

    If I were being contentious, I might say that a lot of the best designed applications I've used only required a keyboard!  The assumption that pointing and clicking is the best interface for all applications isn't necessarily valid.

  • MDO2010 said:
     

    As always though Blender's keymaps are still totally customizable so you can put ones that really annoy you back how they were, and the old keymap is still available via a dropdown on the splash screen if you don't want to do that.

    I'd forgotten about the keymaps. I think I'll try to learn the new shortcuts - it's always better I find not to fight with the way the developers/designers intended you to use their software.  It might work, but it's additional wasted effort, and I do try not to do that!

  • bluejauntebluejaunte Posts: 974
    ebergerly said:

     

    The day Blender forces me to left-click to select my head will explode.

     

    But doesn't every other application you've ever used force you to use left-click to select? All the word processors and text editors. All the spreadsheets. All the image editors. Facebook/Messenger. All the browsers. Every other 3D app (DAZ Studio, Poser, etc.). The list is unending.

    Yeah, I suppose there's a technical difference in the effects of the Blender select vs. every other select, but I'm not sure where the head exploding comes in. I've built the left-select muscle memory over decades, probably like most other users.  

    The use of right-click to select when looking at the Blender interface is as ingrained now as using the hotkeys that I use.  Faced with other interfaces, the muscle memory is different.  Context sensitive I guess.  Choice is fine, but I don't know why you would force all the established users to re-program their muscle memory.  That includes those using it professionally, relying on it for their income.  The illogicality of that is what would explode my head, not so much any inablility to adapt eventually.  The other changes in 2.8 I assume will have an upside making them worth the effort; I can't see any upside for established users to switching to left-click for select.

    If I were being contentious, I might say that a lot of the best designed applications I've used only required a keyboard!  The assumption that pointing and clicking is the best interface for all applications isn't necessarily valid.

    That makes sense of course, but you're also kinda making the point for a right-click select that never should have been there in the first place. What you do not want to go through is exaclty what everyone including yourself did have to go through when learning Blender. At least if they really wanted to do it the Blender way, without having some other issues with shortcuts later.

    I really doubt they will ever remove right-click select completely though, that would surprise me and probably annoy a lot of Blender users as you mentioned.

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 9,807

    Well 2.8 seems actually still a ways off from being production ready. Originally the blog post by the main Blender architect said 2.8 release was hoped to be ready by July 2018 that's come & gone. 

  • MDO2010MDO2010 Posts: 1,432
    edited August 12

    Well 2.8 seems actually still a ways off from being production ready. Originally the blog post by the main Blender architect said 2.8 release was hoped to be ready by July 2018 that's come & gone. 

    Yeah, I've been following the weekly developer video updates and I think the schedule was for the Beta to release next week, but they pushed that back because they are still tweaking things and want it to be feature-complete so people can really test it. AFAIK they are still targeting September 19th for the new Python API (so everyone who makes add-ons can update them) and October 20th for the first release candidate which is more or less in line with what I've been hearing for a while. The July date was just for the Alpha I think.

    Post edited by MDO2010 on
  • CGHipsterCGHipster Posts: 241

    The new Gizmo will be great, its funny since one of the big selling points of the recent Zbrush 2018 also featured a Gizmo lol.  I guess Blender and Zbrush have both caught on.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 7,228
    RorrKonn said:

    I don't know why Blender can't just have a navagation cube like DAZ

    I wish Studio didn't; it gets in the way.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 7,228

    It's a shame they got rid of the backwards mouse clicks because anybody that actually had spent more than 5 minutes actually using Blender knows that those backwards mouse clicks are instrumental in averting multiple control-Z undos and also helped to increase productive workflow. While I like the new look I will kept the backwards mouse clicks.

    +1

  • InkuboInkubo Posts: 662
    edited August 13
    nicstt said:
    RorrKonn said:

    I don't know why Blender can't just have a navagation cube like DAZ

    I wish Studio didn't; it gets in the way.

    You can get it out of the way by using the menu to change to "Docked View Controls"

    Screenshot of Viewport with docked vew controls

     

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    Post edited by Inkubo on
  • MDO2010MDO2010 Posts: 1,432
    MDO2010 said:

    Well 2.8 seems actually still a ways off from being production ready. Originally the blog post by the main Blender architect said 2.8 release was hoped to be ready by July 2018 that's come & gone. 

    Yeah, I've been following the weekly developer video updates and I think the schedule was for the Beta to release next week, but they pushed that back because they are still tweaking things and want it to be feature-complete so people can really test it. AFAIK they are still targeting September 19th for the new Python API (so everyone who makes add-ons can update them) and October 20th for the first release candidate which is more or less in line with what I've been hearing for a while. The July date was just for the Alpha I think.

    As of today looks like the new plan is to have a feature-complete Beta at the end of October and a stable release of 2.8 in early 2019.

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