Encryption discussions go here

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  • acanthisacanthis Posts: 604
    edited January 2016
    nicstt said:

    As an aside, my spending has slowed quite dramatically, since this started. I wonder if it has affected others the same. 

    .

    Post edited by acanthis on
  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 27,557
    edited November 2015
    acanthis said:
    lx said:

    Now that we clearly know how it works and where the limitations are and aren't, I think that most people are okay with it,

    With the greatest of respect, you cannot and should not speak for "most people". You can speak for yourself. You can speak for those that you personally know and who are happy for you to express their views. You do not speak for me.

    I am not "okay" with it.

     

    Please do remember to keep the discussion focused on the subject.

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 6,384
    edited November 2015
    lx said:
    nicstt said:

    I'm happy to vent here; I like venting.

    Keeping it on topic though...

    lx said:

    The only people that think wholescale DRM is okay are either people trying to take advantage of others, or those that don't understand its implications or effects.

    (Note: I do not see Daz's encryption as DRM at all. I'm talking about crap like 100% encrypted files that you can only install to 5 computers ever, that companies can take back when they want, or single player games that require constant smooth internet connections to be able to play. These things all hurt customer bases and the companies implementing them.)

    The problem was that most of the information in the OP post wasn't available when the original announcements were made, and everyone got upset over little information and testing and mostly speculation. Now that we clearly know how it works and where the limitations are and aren't, I think that most people are okay with it, only worried that it'll become proper DRM in the future (which is a pointless thing to worry about; this encryption doesn't do anything to change that, and Daz files already don't natively work in any other programs really.)

    Carrera concerns still seem valid, and people are still hoping for some answers on the future of that program and these changes.

    A subscription model seems wildly infeasible without complete DRM which would make textures innaccessible, and/or requiring true cloud based all models and textures being stored online at all times. It would be completely impractical. Also, Studio Pro used to cost money, but now it doesn't, and Daz found they had increased revenue because of it. They have payments via PC+ coming in that people are happy to pay, too. What purpose would a subscription model even serve?

    I too don't consider it in the same light as other DRM content. I've been concerned and remain concerned that we don't know where this will lead. and like @Pendraia with who's post above I agree with, I will continue to watch. As an aside, my spending has slowed quite dramatically, since this started. I wonder if it has affected others the same. To some extent, the new FAQ, and this first post here are encouraging and if there from the start, might have calmed me down somewhat - and maybe others too.

    Speaking only for myself, I would say that the motives and goals that have been outlined by Daz in this thread are good enough for me to give them a fair chance. I'm honestly surprised they've said as much as they have, which is refreshing comparing to many other companies. What they say makes sense, is customer focused, and is reasonable. 

    A few days ago I agree the entire thing looked suspicious, and when it was announced and before any testing, downright creditcard-hidingly bad. But since then I've downloaded and tested the beta, looked at what the encryption will actually stop customers from legitimately doing (not much unless you're a Carrera user or have some sort of need to dig into downloaded files yet are unable to make your own versions to do the same thing) and read several in depth posts from the staff (or whatever these DAZ_people are.)

    Based on all that, it just doesn't make sense for them to be planning some sort of majestic screw over. Sure, they might at some point well down the road, but not in 4.9, and they can still do this super secret screw over regardless of whether 4.9 encryption exists or not. Once you look at the details of how the encryption actually works, how the server connections work, and how it affects the files, there's really no reason to worry. If the required files of an item all got packaged into one encrypted file I would be worried, but that is not the case.

    It's not like anything is going to change right now anyway, and in case of some sort of doomsday I have the 4.8 installer and all of my DIM content backed up, and while I don't know enough about DSF/DUF to create perfect replica files that others would ever want, I do know how to get the bits I actually use for creating art for myself in a form that I can continue to use on a solely personal basis.

    As someone said earlier, I would like to see PAs be given the option of taking the encryption route or not on an individual basis, but I don't know the details of their relations so won't speculate on that. Let the PAs that want it demand it since they have better lines of communication. If a customer is worried that they'll encode all content despite promising not to and there being no reason to, it makes more sense to buy more now before they can do so, not buy less. Personally I'll just continue to buy the things I think are good and that I tell myself I'll find a use for someday.

    That does not however mean I think 4.9 is release worthy. There are multiple bugs that stop me from doing even the most basic organisation and rendering, and the new features are super clunky in many ways. However, many concerns people have had with the new system have been promised to be implemented, and hopefully the bugs will be fixed (if not, refuse to upgrade and complain a lot [politely] until they are.) I think that the DAZ_whatevers have made plenty of effort to proceed in good faith. It's not like it's going to cost me anything to do so. Accusing them of lying just makes the person doing so look irrational at this point. When things become Connect-only, then certainly, it'll be time to reevaluate.

     

    I don't like software that connects to the internet. My browsers do and I like to monitor what they get up to - not easy. I dislike using software that does it with even limited functionality, and there is more of that in the new Daz as it isn't just calling home. The option not to connect is good, and I can at least alter my firewall to monitor that. I like the DIM as I connect, check for updates, download 'em and/or purchases and close it down.

    I'm not happy, but so far not so unhappy that I will stop trying it out whilst it is beta. Slightly faster renders are welcome, but I'm not conviced that the benefits of that make the other issues worthwhile.

    DAZ_Jon said:
    lx said:

    I might be missing something here, but aren't G3F (and presumably G3M?) free? That'd make encrypting them completely pointless. On the other hand, I'd expect that M7 (and V7) would be the #1 items for piracy right now. Only semi related, but I hate installing the essential packages, since I don't use most of it. Standalones of G3F G3M style basic figures would be nice.

    ps. Just read the updated first post. It's really good, and covers most of my questions on the topic. To be honest, I had no idea that pirate sites reselling cc fraud bought Daz content even existed. There can't be a big market there, nor many shopping there that would be willing to have bought the content originally either (just speculation, not using it as a reason for any sort of change.)

    Its a big enough market that there are actually several sites that do this.

    Wow, they consider the risk of pirated products worth the risk of getting something dodgy - and pay for it? /boggle

    Discounting the legality issues (for the moment) the above should make one pause if nothing else.

    EDIT

    I always have an issue with thinking of pirates as lazy or stupid, but something like this makes me think that some certainly are.

    It must be so annoying seeing ones products stolen, and then to make it worse, they sell it on. sad I'll continue trying to come to terms with the new software for this reason alone.

    Post edited by nicstt on
  • lxlx Posts: 2,862

    I don't like software that connects to the internet. My browsers do and I like to monitor what they get up to - not easy. I dislike using software that does it with even limited functionality, and there is more of that in the new Daz as it isn't just calling home. The option not to connect is good, and I can at least alter my firewall to monitor that. I like the DIM as I connect, check for updates, download 'em and/or purchases and close it down.

    I'm not happy, but so far not so unhappy that I will stop trying it out whilst it is beta. Slightly faster renders are welcome, but I'm not conviced that the benefits of that make the other issues worthwhile.

    I suck at editing quotes properly.

    Right, it's not like I'm happy with the overall concept or anything either. Nor do I want any program connecting and sending off information about anything unless I tell it to. But when I asked about this in the last thread, it was explained in detail how the system works (I don't remember the specifics or the link to the post, sorry.) Absolutely no connections start unless you tell them to, and all of the metadata comparisons for relevant searches etc. are done locally with downloaded lists. The rest works the same as DIM, just to different servers. Updates are done via downloading a list of all packages and then comparing locally to your list for version numbers. Any new ones will then light up offering you to initiate a download only if you choose to. The only information ever sent is a list of what you own, but that's done now via CMS/DIM anyway. 

    Obviously one could argue "what if they're lying" but then they could have lied at any point on any patch. I would advise anyone concerned about any software to monitor it and see for yourself what it is doing. Alternatively, if you don't trust the system, don't use it. It should be possible from what I've read to connect once in order to get your key, then never connect ever again and only get new packages via direct download.

    Note: I'm going off memory from what a DAZ_thing told me. I could be incorrect about any of it. However, it should be fairly reliable unless something changes. Hopefully they can clarify for the new thread. Please don't shoot the messenger for trying to help bring a quicker answer to those with concerns.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 3,317

    To start with I would like to thank DAZ_Jon and the rest of the team, both for the FAQ supplied at the start of this post, and more importantly, for showing they have listened to peoples concerns over these changes, and have agreed to address at least some of them. For me personally, I was very pleased to read that you intend to allow for currently unencrypted products to remain unencrypted when installed via DAZ Connect. That was my number 1 wish, so thanks for agreeing to that. If I have to wait for the official release, or a later patch, that is fine with me.

    As I have stated in other posts, I am no fan of DRM, and I do like to look under the covers to see how things work. I know that makes me a bit of a geek, and likely to be in a fairly small minority of users that do this, but it is something I enjoy. I remember when G3F came out one of the first things I did was look to see how the new UV system was encoded in the files. If the base models at least can remain unencrypted that would be great, and has been stated, there would be little point in protecting them, since they are free.

    I agree with the posts that state that DAZ has the right to try this, regardless of how well it has worked or failed in other markets. I am sure DAZ can only guess whether this will lead to more or less sales, which at the end of the day is the only thing that measures its success. One myth I feel we can debunk is that protection methods always fail. A good friend of mine sells a software application that is regularly pirated despite the fairly good protection systems that they have created for each new version. He tells me that once a pirate version becomes available, they see a significant drop in sales, particularly from certain countries (which I will not name). So the fact remains there exists people that will use a pirated version if they can find it, but will buy a legitimate copy if they can not. The world is not completely black and white, and the idea that there are only people that never use pirated content, and those that only use it, is clearly a simplification of the way things work.

  • DAZ_Rawb said:
    argel1200 said:

    WIll the downloadable files be a compeltely manual process or will e.g. DIM be updated to download them for us (where the "installation" could just be copying the files to the "DAZ Connect" import folder)?

    As far as Michael 7, I'm not in a position to announce if he is or isn't going to be available unencrypted or encrypted only. However, I do have some pretty good guesses as to which way it is going to go and I'm willing to make a bet with you. If it's available unencrypted then you buy a copy of M7 Pro, and if it's only encrypted I'll buy you a copy of M7 Pro.

    You up for that bet?

    LOL!! I like your style. Yeah, I'm up for that bet.

    So, what about allowing PAs the option to go unencypted?

    DAZ_Rawb said:

    The offline downloadable packages (as currently planned) will be available through the product library in your account. The reason for not having them in DIM is because we want to have DIM continue it's focus on downloading the unencrypted zip's so there isn't any confusion for users of software that don't have Daz Connect capability.

    Couldn't you add a new "DAZ Connect" filter? DIM was one of the best moves you made and I would hate to see it thrown away!! It seems like it could still be really useful for this. Please think about it. Or make a special version of DIM jsut for DAZ Connect downloads.

  • lxlx Posts: 2,862
    argel1200 said:

     

    Couldn't you add a new "DAZ Connect" filter? DIM was one of the best moves you made and I would hate to see it thrown away!! It seems like it could still be really useful for this. Please think about it. Or make a special version of DIM jsut for DAZ Connect downloads.

    Seconding this. I really like DIM too, and would much rather keep using it than have to start using multiple download sources and storage options. 

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 6,384
    lx said:
    argel1200 said:

     

    Couldn't you add a new "DAZ Connect" filter? DIM was one of the best moves you made and I would hate to see it thrown away!! It seems like it could still be really useful for this. Please think about it. Or make a special version of DIM jsut for DAZ Connect downloads.

    Seconding this. I really like DIM too, and would much rather keep using it than have to start using multiple download sources and storage options. 

    Make that another user who likes DIM, and would like to see it stay; I really like the connection being in a seperate package.

     

    Havos said:

    To start with I would like to thank DAZ_Jon and the rest of the team, both for the FAQ supplied at the start of this post, and more importantly, for showing they have listened to peoples concerns over these changes, and have agreed to address at least some of them. For me personally, I was very pleased to read that you intend to allow for currently unencrypted products to remain unencrypted when installed via DAZ Connect. That was my number 1 wish, so thanks for agreeing to that. If I have to wait for the official release, or a later patch, that is fine with me.

    As I have stated in other posts, I am no fan of DRM, and I do like to look under the covers to see how things work. I know that makes me a bit of a geek, and likely to be in a fairly small minority of users that do this, but it is something I enjoy. I remember when G3F came out one of the first things I did was look to see how the new UV system was encoded in the files. If the base models at least can remain unencrypted that would be great, and has been stated, there would be little point in protecting them, since they are free.

    I agree with the posts that state that DAZ has the right to try this, regardless of how well it has worked or failed in other markets. I am sure DAZ can only guess whether this will lead to more or less sales, which at the end of the day is the only thing that measures its success. One myth I feel we can debunk is that protection methods always fail. A good friend of mine sells a software application that is regularly pirated despite the fairly good protection systems that they have created for each new version. He tells me that once a pirate version becomes available, they see a significant drop in sales, particularly from certain countries (which I will not name). So the fact remains there exists people that will use a pirated version if they can find it, but will buy a legitimate copy if they can not. The world is not completely black and white, and the idea that there are only people that never use pirated content, and those that only use it, is clearly a simplification of the way things work.

    Pretty much my thoughts, although I still have reservations.

    And despite what politicians and the media suggest; the world is far more grey than either black or white. Note, I'm not accussing countries or specific parties here; I'm generalising.

  • I've been using DS over Poser for the late few months becuase of IRAY.  But if DAZ does encrypt my PURCHASED products. I WILL NOT PURCHASE other thing HERE!!!!!!!!!

     

     

  • What about products like PoseBuilder Genx2/3, etc. that load files from other products? I have seen this asked a few times (not just by me) but I have not seen an answer (may have missed one though).

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 6,384
    argel1200 said:

    What about products like PoseBuilder Genx2/3, etc. that load files from other products? I have seen this asked a few times (not just by me) but I have not seen an answer (may have missed one though).

    I would be curious about this; I too don't recall any specific info regarding their continued use and versatility.

  • Loading a file into DS should be fine, loading a file as DSON data into the script would fail (I tried).

  • For the moment, I buy what I might need sometime in the future, and these items will all work fine in 4.7 or 4.8 (which I will keep for certain, als long as possible). Maybe I'll work with 4.9 as well, maybe not, but I've got enough nice items in my runtimes to last me a very long time.
    Besides the newer figures aren't that much better than the old ones, I've bought M4 characters which do look better and more realistic than G2 men.

    All that doesn't change my opinion about encryption and DRM. I just don't like it, profundly.

  • Since Daz is going to do whatever they please I fail to see any reason to argue against DRM .......

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 6,384
    edited November 2015

    Since Daz is going to do whatever they please I fail to see any reason to argue against DRM .......

    Because doing nothing, saying nothing, can be construed as acceptance, or even agreement. Someone once said, "Do not go blindly into the night..." He was referring to something different obviously, but the sentiment is appropriate. :)

    Of course, the biggest indicator of acceptance is buying and using DRMed products; that one I intend to avoid.

    Post edited by nicstt on
  • nicstt said:

    Since Daz is going to do whatever they please I fail to see any reason to argue against DRM .......

    Because doing nothing, saying nothing, can be construed as acceptance, or even agreement. Someone once said, "Do not go blindly into the night..." He was referring to something different obviously, but the sentiment is appropriate. :)

    Of course, the biggest indicator of acceptance is buying and using DRMed products; that one I intend to avoid.

    Dylan Thomas - "Do not go gentle into that good night..."

  • Fact is that I do not want to have encrypted content on my machine and thus I will NOT buy any DAZ-Connect-Only content.
    Luckily I've spent those tens of thousands of dollars on DAZ content just for fun and do not depend on it to earn money somehow.

    So I see this DAZ-Connect-Only project with mixed feelings.
    On one side it will save me a lot of money on DAZ-Connect-Only content in the future and on the other side I have to pass on some shiny new content.

    Moreover I have a doubt that DAZ-Connect-Only content will increase sales ... but future will tell ... LOL

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 6,384
    nicstt said:

    Since Daz is going to do whatever they please I fail to see any reason to argue against DRM .......

    Because doing nothing, saying nothing, can be construed as acceptance, or even agreement. Someone once said, "Do not go blindly into the night..." He was referring to something different obviously, but the sentiment is appropriate. :)

    Of course, the biggest indicator of acceptance is buying and using DRMed products; that one I intend to avoid.

    Dylan Thomas - "Do not go gentle into that good night..."

    Thank you, I should have checked as opposed to relying on memory.

     

    Fact is that I do not want to have encrypted content on my machine and thus I will NOT buy any DAZ-Connect-Only content.
    Luckily I've spent those tens of thousands of dollars on DAZ content just for fun and do not depend on it to earn money somehow.

    So I see this DAZ-Connect-Only project with mixed feelings.
    On one side it will save me a lot of money on DAZ-Connect-Only content in the future and on the other side I have to pass on some shiny new content.

    Moreover I have a doubt that DAZ-Connect-Only content will increase sales ... but future will tell ... LOL

    Likewise.

  • argel1200argel1200 Posts: 677
    edited November 2015

    Loading a file into DS should be fine, loading a file as DSON data into the script would fail (I tried).

    So certain types of products will no longer be possible?  This is a much more "tanglible" reason to object to the encyption which may explain why DAZ has not been clear on this point. And it sounds like PAs will not have a choice which suggests that DAZ does not think encrpytion/DRM can survive an actual test in the marketplace. DAZ has done a lot to dissuade our concerns but when it feels like they are avoiding or downplaying certain questions/concerns it is hard not to feel concerned.  :(

    Post edited by argel1200 on
  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 6,384
    argel1200 said:

    Loading a file into DS should be fine, loading a file as DSON data into the script would fail (I tried).

    So certain types of products will no longer be possible?  This is a much more "tanglible" reason to object to the encyption which may explain why DAZ has not been clear on this point. And it sounds like PAs will not have a choice which suggests that DAZ does not think encrpytion/DRM can survive an actual test in the marketplace. DAZ has done a lot to dissuade our concerns but when it feels like they are avoiding or downplaying certain questions/concerns it is hard not to feel concerned.  :(

    I have all kind of issues, which generally can't be discussed. It makes it difficult to express those concerns and have them addressed. The DRM, or however you want to term the security encryption, makes many people see red; not becuase they object to owners of products trying to protect them, but becuase of their own experiences. I have seem some issues addressed within the thread.

    Others, well I'm just watching, waiting, and generally not buying much at all atm.

  • SimonJMSimonJM Posts: 4,655

    For someone who sepnt over 25 years in IT, most of it in tech support/systems programmer role, I can be a huge Luddite over some things.  I LIKE single purpose things.  My mobile phone does not have a camera, it does not have a touch screen, it's about as smart as I am ... er, I mean a bag of spanners .. ;)  It does what I want it to do as spcified by the name: it's mobile and it's a phone.

    I am not fussed about the encryption despit having manually adjusted paths, etc., in files before (bit not in any DIM-installed ones it has to be said), so don't, for me, see being unable to do so with DAZ-purcahsed items being an issue.  What does bug me is that Daz Studio is a 3D scene/render program, NOT a netweork connecting, cut-down browser, content-purchasing program.  For download and 'content control' we have DIM and that does a pretty good job (just a shame DAZ missed the boat to split out metadata from the content to allow simple updates!)  I download to an external USB HDD and install from that, so I get 'double bubble': I get to downlaod where I want and also have a backup of the files at the same time.  Yes, I will be able to back up the Connect files - assuminng I can identify the new ones accurately enough.  Else I'm having to back up the multi-GB content every time.

    I'm still a little unsure about what, physically, happens if you update from 4.8 to 4.9 as reagrds your current content.  I know a new DB schema gets introduced, and I know new content gets downloaded (and hence installed) into the new data/cloud location, but does it also move or copy your existing content to the new localtion?  Unless it's a move file, delete file loop (perhaps at the package/product level) that is just not gonna work for me as I don't have the space available to duplicate it all.

  • lxlx Posts: 2,862

    4.9 works perfectly fine with your current content. You may have to tell it where the folders are located again, but nothing actually has to change. You can choose to download it all again via Connect, but there is zero need to actually do so.

  • DAZ_JonDAZ_Jon Posts: 561
    argel1200 said:

    Loading a file into DS should be fine, loading a file as DSON data into the script would fail (I tried).

    So certain types of products will no longer be possible?  This is a much more "tanglible" reason to object to the encyption which may explain why DAZ has not been clear on this point. And it sounds like PAs will not have a choice which suggests that DAZ does not think encrpytion/DRM can survive an actual test in the marketplace. DAZ has done a lot to dissuade our concerns but when it feels like they are avoiding or downplaying certain questions/concerns it is hard not to feel concerned.  :(

    it isn't necessarily certain types of products will no longer be possible (don't know about every case), but more of a certain types of products need to be built differently or use different methods. An example is the pose converter or pose builder by draagonstorm. We talked with her, and some other PAs earlier this year about the implications of this and how to work with and accomplish the same thing with relying on the api or different approaches, including potentially us adding new api calls for them if they need it to get specific data they needed. We absolutely want our PAs to be able to get the same versatility and functionality in the market. That doesn't mean that it will all be ready day 1 since there is their own schedules need to fit it in, but we work very closely with our PAs and they have direct ways to contact us to get what they need to build the products they want to.

  • SimonJMSimonJM Posts: 4,655
    lx said:

    4.9 works perfectly fine with your current content. You may have to tell it where the folders are located again, but nothing actually has to change. You can choose to download it all again via Connect, but there is zero need to actually do so.

    So you can have (at least) 2 content locations - 'old' (DIM-based) and 'new' (Connect-based)?  I presume only the Connect-based content will have the simple update to metadata (if that is needed)?  And, of course, continue to install via DIM even if you have done some via Connect?

  • lxlx Posts: 2,862
    edited November 2015
    SimonJM said:
    lx said:

    4.9 works perfectly fine with your current content. You may have to tell it where the folders are located again, but nothing actually has to change. You can choose to download it all again via Connect, but there is zero need to actually do so.

    So you can have (at least) 2 content locations - 'old' (DIM-based) and 'new' (Connect-based)?  I presume only the Connect-based content will have the simple update to metadata (if that is needed)?  And, of course, continue to install via DIM even if you have done some via Connect?

    Connect based content currently goes into a new folder in your topmost library in data called Cloud. So whatever your topmost library is is where the Connect content goes. Everything else can be in that library or any other library you nominate in the content directory manager. As far as I know only Connect content does the metadata update (I could be wrong) but DIM content still works exactly as before. I'm running 4.9 now and apart from testing some Connect data, I'm using exactly the same libraries and setup as 4.8.

    It'd be nice if there could be an option in DIM to have it able to download and install the Connect type new products that we've bought, but apparently that isn't non the cards (yet?) Of course there also is no Connect-only content right now.

    Post edited by lx on
  • Ok I admit I am totally clueless on this, and I am all for stopping piracy especially if I am paying for something that someone else is getting free...really bugs me.  I render in Octane standalone which means exporting figure, hair, clothing etc as an .obj into Octane and applying texture there.  Will I be able to continue to do so and be able to find textures?  I do not use the DAZ plugin for Octane.

  • Loading a file into DS should be fine, loading a file as DSON data into the script would fail (I tried).

    So certain types of products will no longer be possible? Not surpring then that DAZ has not been clear about this -- it's a much more "tanglible" reason to object to the encyption. SInce DAZ_Rawb ducked the "allow PAs to choose" question (he answered another question from that post), it sounds like PAs will not have a choice which suggests that DAZ does not think it can survive an actual test in the marketplace. DAZ has done a lot to dissuade our concerns but when it feels like they are avoiding certain questions it is hard not to feel concerned about future plans.  :(

    DAZ_Jon said:
    argel1200 said:

    Loading a file into DS should be fine, loading a file as DSON data into the script would fail (I tried).

    So certain types of products will no longer be possible?  This is a much more "tanglible" reason to object to the encyption which may explain why DAZ has not been clear on this point. And it sounds like PAs will not have a choice which suggests that DAZ does not think encrpytion/DRM can survive an actual test in the marketplace. DAZ has done a lot to dissuade our concerns but when it feels like they are avoiding or downplaying certain questions/concerns it is hard not to feel concerned.  :(

    it isn't necessarily certain types of products will no longer be possible (don't know about every case), but more of a certain types of products need to be built differently or use different methods. An example is the pose converter or pose builder by draagonstorm. We talked with her, and some other PAs earlier this year about the implications of this and how to work with and accomplish the same thing with relying on the api or different approaches, including potentially us adding new api calls for them if they need it to get specific data they needed. We absolutely want our PAs to be able to get the same versatility and functionality in the market. That doesn't mean that it will all be ready day 1 since there is their own schedules need to fit it in, but we work very closely with our PAs and they have direct ways to contact us to get what they need to build the products they want to.

    That sounds better, but it is one of the things you should have addressed from the beginning. Will the API updates, etc. needed be  in 4.9 (so that the PAs can update whenever they want to)?

  • SimonJMSimonJM Posts: 4,655

    Ok I admit I am totally clueless on this, and I am all for stopping piracy especially if I am paying for something that someone else is getting free...really bugs me.  I render in Octane standalone which means exporting figure, hair, clothing etc as an .obj into Octane and applying texture there.  Will I be able to continue to do so and be able to find textures?  I do not use the DAZ plugin for Octane.

    From what I have read elsewhere the textures are not encrypted, so external programs such as Octane will be able to read them normally.  As the geometry is exported via Daz Studio it is taken from in-memory so, again, no encryption issues.

  • lxlx Posts: 2,862
    argel1200 said:

    Loading a file into DS should be fine, loading a file as DSON data into the script would fail (I tried).

    So certain types of products will no longer be possible? Not surpring then that DAZ has not been clear about this -- it's a much more "tanglible" reason to object to the encyption. SInce DAZ_Rawb ducked the "allow PAs to choose" question (he answered another question from that post), it sounds like PAs will not have a choice which suggests that DAZ does not think it can survive an actual test in the marketplace. DAZ has done a lot to dissuade our concerns but when it feels like they are avoiding certain questions it is hard not to feel concerned about future plans.  :(

    DAZ_Jon said:
    argel1200 said:

    Loading a file into DS should be fine, loading a file as DSON data into the script would fail (I tried).

    So certain types of products will no longer be possible?  This is a much more "tanglible" reason to object to the encyption which may explain why DAZ has not been clear on this point. And it sounds like PAs will not have a choice which suggests that DAZ does not think encrpytion/DRM can survive an actual test in the marketplace. DAZ has done a lot to dissuade our concerns but when it feels like they are avoiding or downplaying certain questions/concerns it is hard not to feel concerned.  :(

    it isn't necessarily certain types of products will no longer be possible (don't know about every case), but more of a certain types of products need to be built differently or use different methods. An example is the pose converter or pose builder by draagonstorm. We talked with her, and some other PAs earlier this year about the implications of this and how to work with and accomplish the same thing with relying on the api or different approaches, including potentially us adding new api calls for them if they need it to get specific data they needed. We absolutely want our PAs to be able to get the same versatility and functionality in the market. That doesn't mean that it will all be ready day 1 since there is their own schedules need to fit it in, but we work very closely with our PAs and they have direct ways to contact us to get what they need to build the products they want to.

    That sounds better, but it is one of the things you should have addressed from the beginning. Will the API updates, etc. needed be  in 4.9 (so that the PAs can update whenever they want to)?

    They shouldn't if all goes ahead as planned, since they said they were changing the way the beta is so that current non-encrypted content would not be encrypted even via Connect once it goes live, only new Connect-only content will be.

  • SuperdogSuperdog Posts: 765
    edited November 2015
    DAZ_Jon said:
    argel1200 said:

    Loading a file into DS should be fine, loading a file as DSON data into the script would fail (I tried).

    So certain types of products will no longer be possible?  This is a much more "tanglible" reason to object to the encyption which may explain why DAZ has not been clear on this point. And it sounds like PAs will not have a choice which suggests that DAZ does not think encrpytion/DRM can survive an actual test in the marketplace. DAZ has done a lot to dissuade our concerns but when it feels like they are avoiding or downplaying certain questions/concerns it is hard not to feel concerned.  :(

    it isn't necessarily certain types of products will no longer be possible (don't know about every case), but more of a certain types of products need to be built differently or use different methods. An example is the pose converter or pose builder by draagonstorm. We talked with her, and some other PAs earlier this year about the implications of this and how to work with and accomplish the same thing with relying on the api or different approaches, including potentially us adding new api calls for them if they need it to get specific data they needed. We absolutely want our PAs to be able to get the same versatility and functionality in the market. That doesn't mean that it will all be ready day 1 since there is their own schedules need to fit it in, but we work very closely with our PAs and they have direct ways to contact us to get what they need to build the products they want to.

    I had hoped that with the development of the G3 figures that use a more industry standardised approach than in the past that this might mean greater compatibility with 3rd party programs but this will become increasingly more difficult with the introduction of encryption. I think this is a shame because elsewhere in the industry there is a move towards standardisation so that content can be edited between different apps. Encryption closes off this potential which I think is counterproductive towards sales and usability.

    Post edited by Superdog on
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