Show Us Your Iray Renders. Part II
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Here a little WIP (a slightly other render is at home in process)
Not easy a child with G2F and K4 Dynamic Clothing :)
You are using a [virtual] camera, so there's just no way to get around it. Here's a handy guide to brush up on that should have anyone exposing (in a photography sense) quickly and effectively in no time: http://www.betterphoto.com/article.asp?ID=135
Tone mapping tip for when you start a new setup: Keep gamma at 2.2 but take the Burn Highlights slider to 1, and the Crush Blacks slider to 0. This will give you a better contrast range from which you can better judge what you need to do to the exposure settings (at least that's what I find), and then you can also adjust those sliders to reduce strong highlights and deepen the dark areas (but I'd only do that once you have a decent ISO/F-Stop, etc.
Good tips are also in this link (for C4D but it's for the same renderer, and ignore the Mia guff ), which could be more to your taste: http://buerobewegt.com/quicktip-a-real-world-camera-in-m4diray/
It might seem like the renderer's very frustrating, but once the penny drops and you get used to the paradigm you'll probably end up loving iray and PBR. Once [high dynamic] EXR output is enabled (fingers crossed) then you'll be in Photoshop heaven.
...nice. using the Emissive shader makes quick work for lights.
But the iray version's lovely.
The render will stop when it has made a set number of passes, has taken more than a set number of seconds, or has reached a set level of convergence. Presumably one of the first two (probably seconds elapsed, it stops at two hours) had been achieved while the image was still massively unconverged. The parameters are in the progressive group in Render Settings.
Hey Richard,
You've been such a good community member for long time. Always glad to hear from you.
I'll go look at that setting and see what I can get. I'm jazzed to see they've added this to the new BETA.
I'll write back after I test it with new setting.
I'm pretty convinced many things are causing hangs for different reasons. As it's only a Beta I'm not at all sore about it. I just send a crash log zip file when one's available to help Daz and Nvidia iron out the bugs. Nice setups, by the way. There are some really cool images being posted.
Your lighting & the amount of time / information takes to "clear up" is affected by your Progressive Rendering settings. Try increasing the number of samples to allow the scene to continue gathering enough sample passes to clear up. The default is 5000, try increasing that. Another trick is to place a white plane just behind your camera, to give the scene a surface to bounce the window light off of & give the scene more light information to resolve itself.
Thank you for pointing me in right direction Alex.
Many folks who see my art work think I'm amazing, but I'm always quick to say the community of artists taught me these tools of the trade. Thank you!
You are using a [virtual] camera, so there's just no way to get around it. Here's a handy guide to brush up on that should have anyone exposing (in a photography sense) quickly and effectively in no time: http://www.betterphoto.com/article.asp?ID=135
Tone mapping tip for when you start a new setup: Keep gamma at 2.2 but take the Burn Highlights slider to 1, and the Crush Blacks slider to 0. This will give you a better contrast range from which you can better judge what you need to do to the exposure settings (at least that's what I find), and then you can also adjust those sliders to reduce strong highlights and deepen the dark areas (but I'd only do that once you have a decent ISO/F-Stop, etc.
Good tips are also in this link (for C4D but it's for the same renderer, and ignore the Mia guff ), which could be more to your taste: http://buerobewegt.com/quicktip-a-real-world-camera-in-m4diray/
It might seem like the renderer's very frustrating, but once the penny drops and you get used to the paradigm you'll probably end up loving iray and PBR. Once [high dynamic] EXR output is enabled (fingers crossed) then you'll be in Photoshop heaven.
You can use the "Canvases" to render EXR in this build. Enable canvases on the Advance tab of the render settings pane when Iray is the active render. Add a "Beauty" canvas ( see screen shot) and render to file. The exr will save next to the low dynamic range image you rendered too. Note that for EXR renders you usually want to shut off the tone mapper, but Studio can not display HDR images so it only works when you render to file. In the next beta you will be able to do this with a "New Window" render.
If the quest is to use more realistic light scales, it might help if someone could answer a few questions.
I found Iray’s Tone mapping screen, about a dozen controls including F/Stop, Film ISO and others. If I were about to take a series of pictures inside a modern or science fiction building, power is abundant, there are lots of lights on the ceiling producing an environment pretty much ideal for the human eye, how would one prep one’s camera? What would the basic tone map values be?
Now suppose I’m going to a fantasy setting, indoors, at night. There’s a pretty good fire going along one wall. There are quite a few oil lamps and candles burning. There is no problem finding one’s ale mug or avoiding walking into a table, but if one wants to read one wants to be right next to one of the light sources. Again, if one is taking pictures inside such a room, how would one set up one’s camera? What would the basic tone map values be?
I found a Lumen to Watt conversation table. As far as everyone knows, if I put a photometric Point Light inside a frosted glass sphere, this should let me do a pretty good light bulb?
Sitting down with Google provides suggestions on how bright candles, kerosene lamps and fireplaces ought to be. They compare reasonably to the light bulb chart.
Anyway, if somebody how knows cameras could give me a couple of tone maps to start playing with I’ll see what happens. Might save me some trial and error. If some of the less tweaked variables are not mentioned in the suggestions, I won’t touch them. Sorry to ask, but I have little idea of what a basic mundane tone map looks like.
In the physical world, the camera's shutter speed, ISO, & aperture, determine the amount of light the camera chip or film frame is exposed to, as well as things like motion blur, and depth of field (how blurred near & background objects are in the frame)
With low powered lights like candles in an enclosed dark space, the camera need more time to gather enough light to "see" the scene clearly. Try increasing your iso settings (to 3200 or 6400 or more) & lowering your shutter number (called slowing the shutter). 1/100 shutter speed means the "eye" of the camera opens & closes for 1/100th of a second. slowing that down to 1/30th or 1/4th of a second means the camera "eye" stays open longer, letting in more light, to expose your "virtual film frame."
This is the beauty of working with Physically Based Render engines like Iray, Luxrender & Octane. The same principals that have been used for over a century in photography, now work exactly the same way in the virtual world.
You are using a [virtual] camera, so there's just no way to get around it. Here's a handy guide to brush up on that should have anyone exposing (in a photography sense) quickly and effectively in no time: http://www.betterphoto.com/article.asp?ID=135
Tone mapping tip for when you start a new setup: Keep gamma at 2.2 but take the Burn Highlights slider to 1, and the Crush Blacks slider to 0. This will give you a better contrast range from which you can better judge what you need to do to the exposure settings (at least that's what I find), and then you can also adjust those sliders to reduce strong highlights and deepen the dark areas (but I'd only do that once you have a decent ISO/F-Stop, etc.
Good tips are also in this link (for C4D but it's for the same renderer, and ignore the Mia guff ), which could be more to your taste: http://buerobewegt.com/quicktip-a-real-world-camera-in-m4diray/
It might seem like the renderer's very frustrating, but once the penny drops and you get used to the paradigm you'll probably end up loving iray and PBR. Once [high dynamic] EXR output is enabled (fingers crossed) then you'll be in Photoshop heaven.
It is not clear that it is better for DAZ to accurately model obsolete cameras technology rather than strive to produce a better more usable rendering engine. It may seem so to those who already know the limits and work arounds of the old technology, but you might consider who the intended target user is. The attitude that everyone has to learn exotic dated stuff in order to use the tool shouldn't be automatically accepted as a given. People are struggling with the tool. This is bad. I'm willing to struggle a while longer. Not all will.
On the HDR subject, I think I've said it before, but I will say it again resolution/filesize has next to nothing to do with how strong/sharp the shadows are. The only thing it effects is how sharp they will be as a backdrop.
As a demonstration here is a hdr from here http://adaptivesamples.com/category/hdr-panos/ (download them they are free and excellent) the original is 2048x1024 and 6mbs I then shank it down so the one lighting my scene is 800x400 and under 1mb. There is no lighting other than the HDR.
(as a side note, did not know you could do that with canvases, super cool)
also camera settings are exotic and dated?
In the old days, in dim light, one might change the aperture size to admit more or less light, one might change the film sensitivity, one might adjust the speed of the shutter, one might use flashbulbs, and I'm sure there are other options. There are or were advantages and disadvantages to using one approach over another. There was an art to doing more of one, some of the other, and a little bit of a third.
I have a point and shoot camera and have been using 3Delight for rendering. I don't know the practical details of the above stuff. I haven't had to know the practical details. My camera will politely let me know that it wants to use the flash. While there is still a good strong place keeping track of light sources, for the most part the old pre computer chemical film trade offs seem awfully irrelevant to a lot of users, and a pain in the rear to others.
Now it may be that knowledge of the old ways and availability of the old tools allow better art or flavor. There may be a place in the market for a camera simulator as opposed to a render engine.
I am still not sure one wants to require knowledge of the old ways. I'm not a photographer. I'm a software engineer. I'm a fan of the Apple style. Keep the user interface simple, intuitive and elegant. There is a diminishing return in maximizing the number of bells and whistles.
Just saying. The culture of these forums seems to lean the other way.
But I think I've made my point. Pushing it further isn't likely to benefit anybody.
Yes the resolution does not matter for the lighting, if you make three exposures +2,0.-2 you have increased the possible dynamic range by 4 stops, that is the worse map you can do and the most popular on the market, a sun scene need a 12 stops for the optimal effect , average digital cameras can do just 7 stops.
So... how more shots on different exposures how higher the range of the maps and better the final rendering effect .
As I mentioned before, with 12 stops I could get shadows from HDRI maps even in Uber Environment
What could be simpler than real world information that is freely available in hundreds if not thousands of locations on the internet? In most cases simply printing out a couple of charts is all the information you really need to make choices in how you set up the tone mapping.
What could be more intuitive than the ability to input light based on personal real world light that we see every day? Again all the information anyone could ever need about watts, lumen and temperature is out there on many web sites already and can be printed out for easy reference.
They could dim it down to where "one size fits all" and call it a day but I don't think that most users would be happy with that in the long run. Most of us want to have control over the final image. I'm positive that before long there will be freebies and then products that set up lights, environment and tone mapping for the end user. But most of that will not happen till after the program is out of beta since things may/will change before the final release.
It is not clear that it is better for DAZ to accurately model obsolete cameras technology rather than strive to produce a better more usable rendering engine. It may seem so to those who already know the limits and work arounds of the old technology, but you might consider who the intended target user is. The attitude that everyone has to learn exotic dated stuff in order to use the tool shouldn't be automatically accepted as a given. People are struggling with the tool. This is bad. I'm willing to struggle a while longer. Not all will.
In the real world, changing the ISO for faster "film" also means a reduction in quality—either film grain or digital noise. I suspect that isn't the case with Iray. The longer you render the less grain/noise.
It may be unrealistic to ask any render engine to give us "point and shoot" capability, but the Exposure setting in Tone Mapper is the next best thing. If you are uncomfortable with the photography based settings, you can move the Exposure slider to lighten or darken your image.
You will need to set up a drawstyle of Nvidia Iray in your viewport to preview the changes, (I use the Aux Viewport for this.) Then move the slider to the right to lighten the image, or to the left to darken it. It may be easier to click on the value and then enter the specific number you want to use.
There are a number of ways to lighten a scene besides Exposure, but this should get the job done without needing to know all the nuances of the settings.
Thank you all for the suggestions. I still agree with Blantyr, but I also know like Jimbow said, there's apparently no getting around learning camera basics (thank you for that link as well).
In the old days? LOL I still do all that, minus flashbulbs, with my digital SLR. Of course, there are times when I set it to fully automatic and let the camera do the work. :)
I'm actually thoroughly ecstatic and immensely impressed that the DAZ team seems to be going all out with their implementation of Iray.
I doubt that I (...and most likely any other DS user) will ever be able to afford an NVIDIA VCA but I'm glad to see that they're even adding support for that lol.
Big thumbs up, good job guys!
("guys" as in a all inclusive male and female way..of course :) )
edit - pretty sure NVIDIA VCA support is in there for Iray Cloud and not because someone might plunk down $50k for MOARSPEEEEDD!!!11 in DS. :P
Light levels. lumens vs common bulb watts. I had seen that list, and it did not include quite a few lights for larger spaces. So I started digging around a bit.
A more complete list of light levels is here in the Beta thread.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/784881/
I didn't know anything about camera settings.
Really, all I needed to know was 'change these numbers and see if it made the image brighter. Woops, that's darker, other way.'
No charts needed.
(As an aside, I'm on a week long family vacation and I'm going nuts not being able to do computer art!!!)
Playing around with M6's skin...
Yep...true high range images provide useful shadow info in just about anything.
Kamion...hard to find high quality small ones(although 6-7 MB for that size image isn't really that small..), they are not all that common (actually really good big ones aren't common...at least as freebies, which is what most folks are looking for). There are some good midrange ones that are passable, but not many, either. Most of the really good ones are going to cost money. Also, if you want to use it for more than just lighting, you'll need the resolution.
And why the heck is it, in all my searching around to find some HDRs I never found Greg's site? I've been using Blender for years...and he's like Mr. Cycles...I guess if anyone should know how to get the most out of a small image, he'd be the one.
The art formerly known as princess coated in purple and rain.
Rain effect is a geometry shell with the water thin shader placed on it. Drippiness was achieved by only adding a displacement map
Inspired by Male-M3dia, I thought I'd try another Michael 6
Swoon. Let's get married.
Thanks.
I doubt the average target user could afford that new render engine once its development had to be paid for.
Thanks for the idea though, I'm going to try out some experiments myself.
Following up on prior discussions, I’ve worked three images. The set is the Tavern Dining Hall with one of the tables moved to the center of the room, with Xiao Mei seated at the table. I put a table lamp on the table that will be lit to two intensities, 1,500 lumens, the equivalent of a 100 Watt incandescent light bulb, and 13 lumens, about the intensity of a candle (if a few minutes with Google didn’t lie). The lamp is not pure white, but is tinted a bit towards blue. Off to the right, against the wall out of sight, there are two additional 3000 lumen point sources, one tinted red, the other yellow. These are intended to approximate a fireplace that is burning fairly brightly.
The first image, with the table lamp at 1500, is taken with the tone map set at ISO 800, shutter speed 100, F Stop 4. The above settings were selected trial and error to have the girl show up well. In this first shot, the table lamp’s closeness dominates over the fireplace lights, but the fireplace light does allow the wall to barely show up in the background if one looks for it.
The second has the lamp acting as a candle might at 13 lumin. This is so weak that the twin 3000 lumen fireplace dominates the candle, lighting the girl and the wall behind equally. The tone map is set to ISO 3200, shutter speed 70, F stop 3.
The third is the candle only, the fireplace dark. The tone map is set to ISO 3200, Shutter Speed 50, F stop 1. The girl comes out well enough, but the candle light is too dim to reach the wall effectively. The wall looks pretty black to me.
Oddly enough, the middle picture that relies on the fireplace took much longer to render than the other two. It hit the two hour default render time limit. The lamp driven images ran much quicker.
Perhaps the third candle light only image isn’t physically plausible. The camera would have to be on a tripod and the model good at holding still. ISO 3200 film might tend to be very grainy, unable to match the quality of the Iray render engine. With a wide aperture, perhaps if the girl is in focus, depth of field issues would blur the table. Such are the real world limits of camera technology. With Iray’s depth of field stuff disabled, software providing a perfectly stationary camera and model and an ideal perfect ISO 3200 film provided by Iray, none of these real world problems effect the candle only render.
I hope that the tone maps I used are more plausible than the 500,000,000 lumen candle used earlier. (How long could such a candle stay lit? Would it cause sunburn on the model? Blindness? Skin cancer? Would such a candle not use wax, but TNT?) I still suspect that the tone map settings I came up with for the three images might seem silly to an experience cameraman. They seem to work well in Iray, but would they be plausible in the real world? A few comments would be appreciated.