Time for sharing, what I have no idea!

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  • AJ2112AJ2112 Posts: 1,234

    Thanks for surface education friend.  Now, I have a ton of questions, Rofl !!!!  Questions, which would probably be difficult to answer.  Such as how do you make these discoveries, removing maps from all glossy, etc.... this is the sections that baffles me.  Steps I need to take to balance surfaces.  All your adjustments, create balance, a technique i'd love to achieve.   

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,535

    How by going any looking up what PBR is and learning. Plus using Substance Painter taught me more about what is and isn't needed in terms of proper PBR (Physically Based Rendering) maps. Before I got SP I spent hours, days and weeks trying things out making roughness maps by hand in Photoshop I even made some Greyscale Swatches in PS that correspond to a DAZ Studio roughness value, given Iray is Linear and the colour picker is not. Meaning 128 grey is not 0.50 roughness etc. 

  • AJ2112AJ2112 Posts: 1,234

    Thanks for the massive confusion, need another 2 liters of coke, wake up my brain, Rofl !!!!!!!  I did look up PBR, Pebble bed reactor came up on google, no joke, Lol !!!  In seriousness, thanks for tips, will do some research on PBR.  Think, I'll just render everything in black and white, problem solved, Lol !!! wink  Take it easy friend. 

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,535

    try this https://learnopengl.com/PBR/Theory for starters

  • AJ2112AJ2112 Posts: 1,234

    Thanks bud, truly appreciate all your assistance.  Would love to learn surfaces other then base figures, change of pace smiley

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,535
    edited March 23

    My pleasure AJ.

     

    Ok here we go again I bought this set https://www.daz3d.com/reed-plants-for-daz-studio-and-iray which it states "Iray Shaders to add translucency, bloom and general realism to your renders in a few clicks of a mouse". What a disappointment when I loaded one and render it with the DS default Sun and Sky.

     

    As you can see it doesn't look to well as it loads. There were so many things wrong with the shader implementation I had to rework the whole thing. It was amix or Metal/Rough and Weighted shaders. But I did learn something though that adding SSS to plants can make a nice difference compared with just using Translucency alone but i wouldn't have chosen the SSS transmitted colours used,.As it turns out my "First Adjustment" one looks the best in an image situation. 

    So from right to left.

    Far Right; as it loads

    Second from Right; I used the diffuse colour, set in the original, in Translucency and set to Scatter, Transmit and Intensity and also in the SSS colour. Turned off Top Coat and adjust Glossy Weight channels making the gloss colour white.

    Second From Leftt; the same as the second from right without SSS, that is the only difference.

    Far Left; has no SSS and all Diffuse and Translucency Colours set to 0.54 Gray (192 gray in old money)

     

    I am doing this for two reasons, one to show how others can make their Iray props look better and second to have a moan. LOL

    In this era it amazes me how this stuff gets passed by Q&A given it is an Iray only product. PBR is PBR there is no other way not like 3DL where one was expected to adjust things. I do like Martin's products, I have a number of them but I am forever having to fix things. I spend more time doing so than making my images and it is starting to wear thin. No point and saying contact DAZ3D about this my last two Tickets haven't been answered yet, over a week for one of them. Plus I like the models, if I didn't I would return them in a heartbeat. 

    reeds.jpg
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    reeds2.jpg
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    Post edited by Szark on
  • AJ2112AJ2112 Posts: 1,234

    Hi Pete, thanks for sharing your PBR methods.  Wow !  Impressive transition.  Exactly what I was trying to share, pertaining to prop materials, to many are over saturated and glossy, looks like plastic, regardless of light source.  So, diffuse and Tanslucency adjust color, top coat and glossy weight adjust gloss.  Correct ?  I've never used SSS so, cannot chime in.  But, SSS trans color can combine with translucency.  Wonderful, time to experiement.  I've uploaded non metal props that had metallicty values, I'm thinkin huh ?  As they say, more shine, more beauty.     

    I agree, pertaining to Q&A inspections.  It's like going to a toy store, purchase a toy, go home, take it apart, put it back together for toy to work properly.  Insane, Rofl !!!!  Other stores have access to contacting PA's directly.

    Once again thanks for sharing yes

     

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,535

    No problem.

     

    In this case I removed Top Coat completely, there is no need for it on plants. Top coat is more for coatings, varnish, car paint etc. The Glossy Weight section uses fresnel from the main IOR settings.  Glossy Weight for proper PBR maps should always be on 1.00. Non PBR then we will have to drop it down. Yes SSS and Translucency work together if THIN Walled is turned OFF

     

    Yeah non metals should never have Metalicity on, ever.

  • AJ2112AJ2112 Posts: 1,234
    edited March 24

    Awesome ! Thanks for clarifying bud.  But, if individual desires fake plants, then Top coat map is used.  Gotcha top coat is like a varnish surface coat .  IOR controls surface glossy level.  Fab weekend lession. Now, I'm a newbie level 1 PBR texture artist, Rofl !!!!!!!!!!!  Have a good one friend smiley   

    Post edited by AJ2112 on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,535

    ROFLOL yeah they do looks like those fake indoor plants I see in shopping malls over here.

    "IOR controls surface glossy level" sort of. Fresnel is calculated according to what the Main IOR is set to is probably more correct. It doesn't control Gloss so in effect It is Gloss Weight + Roughness + IOR = Fresnel well that is what I think it is. :)

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,535
    edited March 30

    Eurasian Bitterns are from a planned re-release of Shorebirds Volumes 1-3.

    I think it is important that folks knew what lengths Ken goes to, to update these for free for folks that already own these. I won't go into details but it is a lot of work. How many vendors out there that do this, not many. I can't thank him enough so I do some renders, here's one I did earlier. ;) Actually I rendered it today as I was waiting for the updated files. :P The improvements are awesome.

    Songbird ReMix Shorebirds Volume Two: Herons & Bitterns https://hivewire3d.com/shop/shop-by-artist/ken-gilliland/shorebirds-complete.html

    Nature's Wonders Frogs https://hivewire3d.com/shop/shop-by-artist/ken-gilliland/nature-s-wonders-frogs.html

    Nature's Wonders Dragonflies & Damselflies of the World Vol. 1 https://hivewire3d.com/shop/shop-by-artist/ken-gilliland/nature-s-wonders-dragonflies-damselflies-of-the-world-vol-1.html

    Hell Creek Modules https://www.daz3d.com/hell-creek-modules repurposed a terrain and used Substance Painter to make a mud layer around the edge where it meets the water using a mask by rendering the terrain and water plane from the top camera making the water black and the terrain white.

    Watch out Bitterns about final.jpg
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    Post edited by Szark on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,535

    Jabiru Stork from

    SBRM Shorebirds - Wading Birds

    https://hivewire3d.com/songbird-remix-shorebirds-wading-birds.html

     

    Used Lisa's Dead bushes to make up the nest, among other branches I had lying around.

    Dead Bushes

    https://hivewire3d.com/shop/hw3d-collections/lisas-botanicals/dead-bushes.html ;

     

    Nestle.jpg
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  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,535
    edited April 7
    Szark said:

    @Taoz

    Ok here it is, since you asked. Hope it helps others too.

    Hell Creek Modules adjustments

     

    First off I removed all maps from;

    Glossy Layered Weight leaving it on 1.00

    Glossy Colour leaving it white

    Reflectivity setting it back to the default (Alt+Left Click on the value)

    Top Coat Weight

    Top Coat Roughness then setting Top Coat Weight to zero.

     

    Also before I saved out each module as a new Scene Subset I re-parented the contents to a Group Null so I can hide a complete module with one click.

     

    I then set Diffuse Roughness for the palms bark, tree trunks, tree log, tree stump, dead tree, stick debris and branches etc to 0.40. For plant leaves I used a value of 0.30. Diffuse roughness is for when light is absorbed and spread out more. I find it helps to soften the gloss settings on leaves. I didn't bother using any translucency on the Moss.

     

    All plant leaves use a Translucency value of 0.10, putting the diffuse map in the colour channel and set to Scatter, Transmit Intensity as I found it gave the best colour translucency according to the map. If you want to darken the effect use a mid grey in the colour bar.

     

    Followed the above for the Magnolias, Moss Clusters and Palm Sabal. For the Palm Tree leaves I did the above but replaced the Roughness map with the included Leaf Gloss map. I found the roughness map made the leaves to glossy. Personal choice. :)

     

    All map adjustments made with Photoshop CC2019 and suffixed with A so not to overwrite the originals, just in case. :)

     

    Terrains:

     

    Set Diffuse Roughness to 0.30 and Reflectivity to 0.30

    Diffuse maps I saturated (CTRL+U) at a value of +15

    Roughness maps I adjusted the Levels (CTRL+L) (Output Levels) Bottom Left to a value of 130 to make it lighter.

    This is includes the nest diffuse and roughness map

    Also while I was doing this I saved out some 4K maps for the terrains, for distant terrains.

     

    Metasequoias:

     

    Diffuse maps for the Trunk, (Break uses the trunk map) and Branches I saturated +20 and dropped the lightness down by -10

     

    Ground Cover:

     

    All Branches and Stick Debris: Adjusted Roughness map Levels (Output Levels) 190 to make them lighter.

     

    Cane Palm: I removed the roughness map and just used a value of 0.63. I didn't like the results using the map. I tried to adjust it but it still didn't look right for me. For a Translucency Weight Map I took the opacity map into PS and painted out the stems, leaving the leaves only.

     

    Rocks: Diffuse roughness of 0.30.

     

    Mushrooms: Diffuse Roughness 0.20 and I just dropped the Glossy Layered Weight to 0.50 (I was being lazy at this point LOL)

     

    Tree Log, Tree Stump and Dead Tree: Diffuse maps saturated +15 and Roughness map Levels (Output Levels) 190 to make them lighter.

     

    Eggs:

     

    Diffuse Roughness 0.10 Glossy Layered Weight 0.50. (Being lazy again)

     

    Some might ask why I went to this trouble, why not just return it if I wasn't happy that it didn't have true PBR materials and settings and to me wasn't that realistic. Well I love the set, modelling and textures are awesome and I can use for other things with different trees etc. Plus over the years I have acquired certain skills to do so. IMO I think is looks better for it. I am not saying I know it all but I do have a good understanding of PBR just don't ask me about human skins. I don't have any interest in human figures any more.

     

    Albedo maps need to be of a level of saturation so that it can cope with full Glossy Weight without looking too washed out and to better react to light. Legacy stuff needs Gloss weight lowered as the diffuse maps weren't made for PBR. But new stuff that is Iray only should IMO hold up to this standard. This set is not alone in this. I have a number of products that have Gloss maps in the Glossy Layered Weight node and I have done the same thing with them. Shame I have to.

    @Taoz after more testing I think setting Translucency to Scatter only at about 0.30 - 0.50 looks better plus we have more control with Scatter only. The other two seem to give little control with using the diffuse map as the translucency colour. In the case of the ferns it does make them look darker but they do look better from the underside view. I have found if Scatter, Transmit and Intensity is used the overall colour of the plants seem to pop more and look unnatural but it does depend on the maps used in the first place.

    Post edited by Szark on
  • TaozTaoz Posts: 6,268
    Szark said:
    Szark said:

    @Taoz

    Ok here it is, since you asked. Hope it helps others too.

    Hell Creek Modules adjustments

     

    First off I removed all maps from;

    Glossy Layered Weight leaving it on 1.00

    Glossy Colour leaving it white

    Reflectivity setting it back to the default (Alt+Left Click on the value)

    Top Coat Weight

    Top Coat Roughness then setting Top Coat Weight to zero.

     

    Also before I saved out each module as a new Scene Subset I re-parented the contents to a Group Null so I can hide a complete module with one click.

     

    I then set Diffuse Roughness for the palms bark, tree trunks, tree log, tree stump, dead tree, stick debris and branches etc to 0.40. For plant leaves I used a value of 0.30. Diffuse roughness is for when light is absorbed and spread out more. I find it helps to soften the gloss settings on leaves. I didn't bother using any translucency on the Moss.

     

    All plant leaves use a Translucency value of 0.10, putting the diffuse map in the colour channel and set to Scatter, Transmit Intensity as I found it gave the best colour translucency according to the map. If you want to darken the effect use a mid grey in the colour bar.

     

    Followed the above for the Magnolias, Moss Clusters and Palm Sabal. For the Palm Tree leaves I did the above but replaced the Roughness map with the included Leaf Gloss map. I found the roughness map made the leaves to glossy. Personal choice. :)

     

    All map adjustments made with Photoshop CC2019 and suffixed with A so not to overwrite the originals, just in case. :)

     

    Terrains:

     

    Set Diffuse Roughness to 0.30 and Reflectivity to 0.30

    Diffuse maps I saturated (CTRL+U) at a value of +15

    Roughness maps I adjusted the Levels (CTRL+L) (Output Levels) Bottom Left to a value of 130 to make it lighter.

    This is includes the nest diffuse and roughness map

    Also while I was doing this I saved out some 4K maps for the terrains, for distant terrains.

     

    Metasequoias:

     

    Diffuse maps for the Trunk, (Break uses the trunk map) and Branches I saturated +20 and dropped the lightness down by -10

     

    Ground Cover:

     

    All Branches and Stick Debris: Adjusted Roughness map Levels (Output Levels) 190 to make them lighter.

     

    Cane Palm: I removed the roughness map and just used a value of 0.63. I didn't like the results using the map. I tried to adjust it but it still didn't look right for me. For a Translucency Weight Map I took the opacity map into PS and painted out the stems, leaving the leaves only.

     

    Rocks: Diffuse roughness of 0.30.

     

    Mushrooms: Diffuse Roughness 0.20 and I just dropped the Glossy Layered Weight to 0.50 (I was being lazy at this point LOL)

     

    Tree Log, Tree Stump and Dead Tree: Diffuse maps saturated +15 and Roughness map Levels (Output Levels) 190 to make them lighter.

     

    Eggs:

     

    Diffuse Roughness 0.10 Glossy Layered Weight 0.50. (Being lazy again)

     

    Some might ask why I went to this trouble, why not just return it if I wasn't happy that it didn't have true PBR materials and settings and to me wasn't that realistic. Well I love the set, modelling and textures are awesome and I can use for other things with different trees etc. Plus over the years I have acquired certain skills to do so. IMO I think is looks better for it. I am not saying I know it all but I do have a good understanding of PBR just don't ask me about human skins. I don't have any interest in human figures any more.

     

    Albedo maps need to be of a level of saturation so that it can cope with full Glossy Weight without looking too washed out and to better react to light. Legacy stuff needs Gloss weight lowered as the diffuse maps weren't made for PBR. But new stuff that is Iray only should IMO hold up to this standard. This set is not alone in this. I have a number of products that have Gloss maps in the Glossy Layered Weight node and I have done the same thing with them. Shame I have to.

    @Taoz after more testing I think setting Translucency to Scatter only at about 0.30 - 0.50 looks better plus we have more control with Scatter only. The other two seem to give little control with using the diffuse map as the translucency colour. In the case of the ferns it does make them look darker but they do look better from the underside view. I have found if Scatter, Transmit and Intensity is used the overall colour of the plants seem to pop more and look unnatural but it does depend on the maps used in the first place.

    Thanks for the update Szark, been too busy to experiment with this so far but will give it a try during this week. Still ned to learn a lot about textures and shaders, I bought Esha's Iray Shader Guide a while ago but haven't got to explore it yet.  

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,535

    I think some PAs need to read this https://blendermarket.com/posts/how-to-deal-with-constructive-criticism?utm_source=intercom and understand that some people here just want to help.

  • AJ2112AJ2112 Posts: 1,234

    Fantastic article, marvelous advice, definetly helped me, thanks for sharing smiley

  • MisselthwaiteMisselthwaite Posts: 399

    Good article; short and to the point.  I would add that it sometimes is nearly as hard to criticize as it is to be criticized!  I would like to think most people don't want to crush anyone's feelings, hopes, dreams, or little just-out-of-the-egg creations  (yes, I know there are trolls.  They belong under bridges!)  It takes care to create a thoughtful and constructive criticism, even as it takes patience and self-awareness to receive it and make the best use of it.  However, one good, valid critique is worth dozens of the warmest, sincerest praises, because it lets you borrow someone's eyes for a moment, and learn something new... even if it is simply a differering perspective.

    I love the frog in your Bittern picture, Szark!  I find my eye always looks for the little things, and I found that guy very pleasing.  Sorry, no criticisms here, today!

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,535

    thanks AJ

     

    Misselthwaite yes many can't critigue due lack of knowledge or experience. The few times I have tried to help it feel on deaf ears or taken the wrong way so i don't bother anymore. I personaly would love folks to rip my images to bits as I find it very helpful but alas I don't get that much. I have had commenst about my ant image that the scale between them isn't right but what they don't realise is that I do my research first so I know certain aspects are correct and yes sometimes not exacty realistic but close enough.

    I have a thick skin for such things. I ignore trolls.

     

    Thanks I am very detail orientated no matter the type of image I make. It can be a curse sometimes and epensive. :)

  • MisselthwaiteMisselthwaite Posts: 399

    Scene fillers cost more than the scene, I know!  It also has to be just the right thing(s)...

    I'm not sure I could take be torn apart 24/7 (I have children to bring me low, already!) but I like to hear criticism... or, maybe call it a suggestion ;-)  The nice thing with rendering, is that you can certainly 'tweak' things afterwards (although depending on the length of the render, it may be a less palatable idea!) rather than painting, where it would mean starting over from scratch.  I create characters for a gaming friend, and I hear a lot of, "No, that's not quite it... maybe less of that... more of this... no, wait, go back a few..." so I'm certainly willing to listen. 

    Art is tricky; a lot of what we immediately respond to is visceral, and sometimes it is difficult to parse out exactly what it is we do or do not like about an image, and then express it in comprehensible and meaningful ways to someone who may not want to hear it :-)  With so much of the reaction being personal preference, and styles being so wonderfully, vastly different, it is sometimes hard to know when to speak and when to stay silent.  I think most people err on the side of silence...

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,535

    LOL about the children, I don't have that affliction. I do have a GTX 1080ti so most renders are pretty quick these days. My sunset Stork image took 5.41 mins at a very high quality setting. I think the Bittern image took about an hour.

    I agree.

     

    For me I just make what I like not worrying what others will think, I recently saw a dA page that removes images if it doesn't get any comments. Certainly not doing things for the right reasons. I think that is the key to enjoyment, doing for yourself and not a pat on the back. It is also why I don't judge others for what they make, it's a personal choice. 

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,535
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