Luxus Skin Settings

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  • HellboyHellboy Posts: 1,151
    edited December 1969

    Yeah, I am exagereating the SSS for the regular lighting. Not for realistic translucency on back light. I'll do a separate presete just for that.
    What I want to achieve first is something more organic for common lighting stuations.
    I'll start by adjusting the redish tone. :)
    Thanks!

  • HellboyHellboy Posts: 1,151
    edited December 1969

    Michael_G said:
    @hellboy looks like there's a lot of red?

    my settings for Derek 5

    Thank you. I'll take a look. Glad I'm not the only one ignoring the scattering. I was felling guilty. :)

  • HellboyHellboy Posts: 1,151
    edited December 1969

    How about this update? Made it less red.

    Phillip_Luxus_Test2.jpg
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  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 8,542
    edited December 1969

    Skin tone looks very natural. Very similar to mine! Us Irish or partially Irish will always have a bit of a ruddiness to the skin.

  • HellboyHellboy Posts: 1,151
    edited December 1969

    Thanks. I’m happy with the warm one myself, but I’d like to be faithful to Phillip’s 3Delight and also do something people would want to use.

    I think I’ll have to rework the SSS, I want something subtle but noticeable and that shows on the whole body. Right now I only get i to show on the limbs, the absorption seems like its not reaching the torso.
    So I have to exaggerate it a bit and end with translucent limbs. :/

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 8,542
    edited December 1969

    Your a perfectionist. I know all about that! lol

  • SloshSlosh Posts: 2,318
    edited April 2013

    Hellboy said:
    Thanks. I’m happy with the warm one myself, but I’d like to be faithful to Phillip’s 3Delight and also do something people would want to use.

    I think I’ll have to rework the SSS, I want something subtle but noticeable and that shows on the whole body. Right now I only get i to show on the limbs, the absorption seems like its not reaching the torso.
    So I have to exaggerate it a bit and end with translucent limbs. :/

    Have you tried different scales for the limbs vs. the torso? I wonder if that would leave us with visible differences at render time. I did a render last night without volume at all and it looked pretty good. I'm starting to wonder if we even need to use it. Talk about a complete turn around.

    Either way, I like both Test 1 and Test 2, for different reasons. I would use either depending on the rest of my scene.

    Post edited by Slosh on
  • HellboyHellboy Posts: 1,151
    edited December 1969

    All my Reality renders were without volume. I was happy without it. But something I like about Luxus is all the options it provides. I want to make the most of it. I like the volume options, but I need to find a right balance. :)

  • HellboyHellboy Posts: 1,151
    edited April 2013

    This is a closeup. Problem is the SSS washed out some texture detail and the translucency is weird.
    I've had good results by placing the diffuse maps in the Transmission Color to retain some detail. Will post those later.

    luxrender_cara.jpg
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    Post edited by Hellboy on
  • SloshSlosh Posts: 2,318
    edited December 1969

    Hellboy said:
    This is a closeup. Problem is the SSS washed out some texture detail and the translucency is weird.
    I've had good results by placing the diffuse maps in the Transmission Color to retain some detail. Will post those later.

    I've been doing the same in Transmission Color. It helps a great deal in restoring texture detail. LuxDocs say not to use TransColor when using volumes, but I never listen.

    I'm not seeing any problem with the renders you have been sharing, in fact I quite like the skin you are getting. Just curious, what is your glossy translucent absorption scale setting? It seems the higher I go with that, the more texture I see and the less Fresnel sort of effect. I have gone as high as 0.8 for some characters with a paler gta color, but as low as .25 with a darker gta color.

  • InaneGloryInaneGlory Posts: 293
    edited December 1969

    Subsurface scattering is supposed to be that little extra element that adds that little pop to your skin textures. SSS should add to your base texture, not re-color or overpower it. So far most of the stuff I've seen you guys doing is the opposite of that. F5 Andrei? Totally pale white boy. M5 Phillip? I wouldn't call him pale but he's not very dark/tan either. I'd think of him more as your average white boy. The key is to use just a touch of SSS. If we where rendering with 3Delight I'd be using UbS/UbS2 and I wouldn't be setting my SSS above 10% unless I wanted to create something exotic looking. In LuxRender you don't have a simple slider but there are ways to make sure you only get a touch of SSS.

    Volume - Absorption Scale: The higher you set this, the less effect the Absorption Color is going to have on your texture and the less variation between arms, legs, body etc.

    Volume - Scattering Scale: While this is dependent on the Absorption Scale the bottom line is the lower the Scale the less effect the Scattering Color will have.

    In checking how Luxus auto-converts skin I've found an extremely high Absorption Scale (2250) coupled with a very low Scattering scale (4). I'm not saying these numbers should be taken as gospel but they still seem like better starting point than some of the other numbers I've seen being tossed around.

    This experiment uses Danae's Dublin texture, a very pale Irish lass.
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/the-metropolitan-collection---dublin-v4-2/90599/
    I'm pretty happy with her skin tone. The level of detail of the skin and the look of the clothes and hair, not so much.

    Dublin3_1.52Vista_.jpg
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  • SloshSlosh Posts: 2,318
    edited December 1969

    Subsurface scattering is supposed to be that little extra element that adds that little pop to your skin textures. SSS should add to your base texture, not re-color or overpower it. So far most of the stuff I've seen you guys doing is the opposite of that. F5 Andrei? Totally pale white boy. M5 Phillip? I wouldn't call him pale but he's not very dark/tan either. I'd think of him more as your average white boy. The key is to use just a touch of SSS. If we where rendering with 3Delight I'd be using UbS/UbS2 and I wouldn't be setting my SSS above 10% unless I wanted to create something exotic looking. In LuxRender you don't have a simple slider but there are ways to make sure you only get a touch of SSS.

    Volume - Absorption Scale: The higher you set this, the less effect the Absorption Color is going to have on your texture and the less variation between arms, legs, body etc.

    Volume - Scattering Scale: While this is dependent on the Absorption Scale the bottom line is the lower the Scale the less effect the Scattering Color will have.

    In checking how Luxus auto-converts skin I've found an extremely high Absorption Scale (2250) coupled with a very low Scattering scale (4). I'm not saying these numbers should be taken as gospel but they still seem like better starting point than some of the other numbers I've seen being tossed around.

    This experiment uses Danae's Dublin texture, a very pale Irish lass.
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/the-metropolitan-collection---dublin-v4-2/90599/
    I'm pretty happy with her skin tone. The level of detail of the skin and the look of the clothes and hair, not so much.

    I regretfully have to disagree with everything you've written. I've tried settings like you are giving, and I think they look very unrealistic, as does the lovely Irish lass below. She looks cartoonish and not at all realistic. There is no bump to her skin and no natural sheen. I'm not saying by any means that the experiments I/we have shown so far are realistic, but they are much closer in my opinion.

    I dislike the fact that I don't agree with you. I really do not like being negative, however to say that the numbers being "tossed around" are less accurate than what you are providing is only a matter of taste. Your taste. If we were looking for flat, washed out renders we would not being experimenting so much with getting a good combination, we would just go ahead and use 3delight. Or Poser 5.

    I hope my comments don't come across as too extreme or discourage you from sharing in this thread. I just countered your critiques with the same candor that you used in your post.

  • HellboyHellboy Posts: 1,151
    edited December 1969

    I think the lady looks a bit dull indeed, but she’s fine... but I totally hate Dublin.

    Anyway, here are the settings so far. But everything is just an experiment so far, so the presets probably will be very different. If someone wants to improve them and “toss around the numbers”, please do so.

    Phillip_settings.jpg
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  • SloshSlosh Posts: 2,318
    edited May 2013

    Eye and skin setting experiments. I used a geoshell for the eye, but I don't know that I couldn't get the same result just using the glossy settings on the eye. I don't like the tear settings, but will work on that.

    Eyes.png
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    Post edited by Slosh on
  • Michael GMichael G Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Genesis eyes are proving to be a problem due to there being no eye surface material, I got reasonable results using a geo shell.

  • fasttamfasttam Posts: 33
    edited May 2013

    Hellboy said:

    I've had good results by placing the diffuse maps in the Transmission Color to retain some detail. Will post those later.

    That's the way the other render engines i use works. (vray, modo)
    The red color in shadow means too much or too deep SSS.

    Thanks everybody again

    Post edited by fasttam on
  • fasttamfasttam Posts: 33
    edited May 2013

    Slosh said:
    Eye and skin setting experiments. I used a geoshell for the eye, but I don't know that I couldn't get the same result just using the glossy settings on the eye. I don't like the tear settings, but will work on that.

    Maybe you can try using the sclethra's textures in Transmission Color (and also the iris)

    @InaneGlory: My opinion off course. The pictures from Dublin (rendered in Poser) looks like wax not skin. Especially the areas around mouth and eyes.

    Post edited by fasttam on
  • SloshSlosh Posts: 2,318
    edited December 1969

    fasttam said:
    Slosh said:
    Eye and skin setting experiments. I used a geoshell for the eye, but I don't know that I couldn't get the same result just using the glossy settings on the eye. I don't like the tear settings, but will work on that.

    Maybe you can try using the sclethra's textures in Transmission Color (and also the iris)

    @InaneGlory: My opinion off course. The pictures from Dublin (rendered in Poser) looks like wax not skin. Especially the areas around mouth and eyes.

    The textures are in the Transmission Color... the problem is with this particular eye texture. The sclera does not have much color or detail to it. I think these eyes would look great with a different texture set.

  • SloshSlosh Posts: 2,318
    edited December 1969

    fasttam said:
    Hellboy said:

    I've had good results by placing the diffuse maps in the Transmission Color to retain some detail. Will post those later.

    That's the way the other render engines i use works. (vray, modo)
    The red color in shadow means too much or too deep SSS.

    Thanks everybody again

    You do want some color in the shadows, however. Look at your own face in the mirror or at photos or tv. We don't get gray shadows on our face, except in very harsh light, because of the SSS in our skin.

  • SloshSlosh Posts: 2,318
    edited December 1969

    I am sorry, InaneGlory, for my reaction to the opinion you shared. I think I just got offended by your presentation of your opinion. I basically felt like you were saying, "All you guys are so stupid for using those settings. This is what you should really be doing." I think it's obvious that you don't have that sort of attitude and I should not have taken it as such.

    At the beginning of this thread the settings of 500,500 were totally off for anyone using them. I think that InaneGlory had the same problem trying to use my settings and therefore I would have had the same opinion that he had, given those results. I still don't know what it is about my setup that made 500,500 work where it did not work for others, and only after DL my file did people get the same results.

    In the spirit of being fair, I decided to try InaneGlory's suggestion of volume absorption 2250, scatter 4. Below is a comparison of those settings vs. the setting tossed around by me at the onset of this thread.

    The girls have every setting identical, except the volume absorption scale and volume scatter scale. My settings of 500 for each has been used on one of the girls and 2250,4 has been used on the other.

    To tell the truth, the difference at render is so subtle, I would have a very difficult time saying which was which. In fact, only one of the girls even displays the slightest hint of subsurface scattering and that is the one set at 500,500. As InaneGlory said, it should enhance the skin tone not recolor or overpower it, and I think he would have to agree that 500,500 does not overpower or recolor the skin. It does, however, enhance it whereas 2250,4 does not appear to have any effect whatsoever.

    I think the flatness and lack of bump or sheen in the Dublin girl is due to other settings that InaneGlory may have used and is more down to his personal taste, because in my example, using 2250,4 does not take away any of these features like I originally accused them of doing. The main problem I found was that 500,500 left a few red sparkles after 7 hours, where 2250,4 left none. I think this is due to the scatter being so low. Maybe a compromise of 250 for scatter would be better. Also, maybe a slightly higher absorption scale would show a bit more of the scatter effect, which I think is needed here.

    So, I will try another render later at maybe 1000, 250 and see if that makes the difference. The funny thing is, after typing that last sentence, I see that Hellboy's settings are 1000, 100. I guess he already deduced all of this. :)

    Two_Skins_2.png
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  • HellboyHellboy Posts: 1,151
    edited May 2013

    Slosh said:
    I see that Hellboy's settings are 1000, 100. I guess he already deduced all of this. :)

    I have not deduced anything so far, right now I'm just twisting things and see what happens. XD
    This is today's experiment. Have to tweak it a lot more.
    This is fun :)

    face_test2.jpg
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    Post edited by Hellboy on
  • SloshSlosh Posts: 2,318
    edited December 1969

    Hellboy said:
    Slosh said:
    I see that Hellboy's settings are 1000, 100. I guess he already deduced all of this. :)

    I have not deduced anything so far, right now I'm just twisting things and see what happens. XD
    This is today's experiment. Have to tweak it a lot more.
    This is fun :)

    You are getting such great results, HB. I have to play with the settings you gave earlier. Just haven't had the time yet.

  • Michael GMichael G Posts: 0
    edited May 2013

    500 absorption and 100 scatter plus face texture in the transmission channel. Also finally getting some where with the eyes, iris and sclera are set to a glass geo shell with 1.33 IOR, those are real reflections from the two mesh lights.

    barbarian.jpg
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    Post edited by Michael G on
  • Michael GMichael G Posts: 0
    edited May 2013

    Again 500 absorption and 100 scatter with textures in the transmission channel, Does the skin look like its made from plastic?

    Image removed by mod for nudity

    Post edited by frank0314 on
  • SloshSlosh Posts: 2,318
    edited December 1969

    Michael_G said:
    500 absorption and 100 scatter plus face texture in the transmission channel. Also finally getting some where with the eyes, iris and sclera are set to a glass geo shell with 1.33 IOR, those are real reflections from the two mesh lights.

    Looking really good, Michael. I would have liked to see your other entry, but of course the mods removed it. I'd say we are coming along very nicely. I don't understand, though, why our eyes don't have reflections across the entire surface instead of just the cornea. Even using a geoshell, they don't seem to spread. I did some experiments where I colored the eye completely dark blue, sclera and all, to test the reflections in the geoshell. That seemed to work, but as soon as I put the eye textures back in, the reflections were not visible. I'm sure it's just a matter of tweaking, but there are never enough hours in the day.

  • Michael GMichael G Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Even a naked backside with censor is not allowed, this forum sucks.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 29,080
    edited December 1969

    Michael_G said:
    Even a naked backside with censor is not allowed, this forum sucks.

    Announcement here http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/3279_38/

  • HellboyHellboy Posts: 1,151
    edited December 1969

    Gave Phillip and Glossy Translucent with Volume a rest to play with eyes. But got distracted with David 5 texture and got this with the simple Glossy material. I noticed there is already Absorption Color and Absorption Depth in the Glossy material. I thought it was like Reality's Glossy which is pretty boring. And seems those are enough for a nice, fast SSS effect. I assume there is no translucency with a back light, but I like this for regular lighting situations.
    I'm very happy with the result, but I'm open to suggestions.

    Now, I am also playing with custom eye surfaces, but I'm not setting the glass material right because its taking more than usual to render. Should have used Architectural, but not sure how much that would help. In a separate test, the eyes didn´t took that long. Will get to that later. :)

    That ends today's experiments XD.

    eye.jpg
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    David5_Test.jpg
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  • SloshSlosh Posts: 2,318
    edited December 1969

    Hellboy said:
    Gave Phillip and Glossy Translucent with Volume a rest to play with eyes. But got distracted with David 5 texture and got this with the simple Glossy material. I noticed there is already Absorption Color and Absorption Depth in the Glossy material. I thought it was like Reality's Glossy which is pretty boring. And seems those are enough for a nice, fast SSS effect. I assume there is no translucency with a back light, but I like this for regular lighting situations.
    I'm very happy with the result, but I'm open to suggestions.

    Now, I am also playing with custom eye surfaces, but I'm not setting the glass material right because its taking more than usual to render. Should have used Architectural, but not sure how much that would help. In a separate test, the eyes didn´t took that long. Will get to that later. :)

    That ends today's experiments XD.

    Yeah, the glossy has absClr and absDpth, which is great for the eyeball surfaces. I use some of the absorption to give the bluish hue that the sclera can have (or yellowish, depending on the eye). As for your floating eyeballs there, did you put a geoshell on them and apply the glass/glass2 material? And yes, the architectural will speed things up and also keep you from getting a black edge, but that doesn't seem to be a problem for you here. I mostly notice the black edge on my cornea when it was the only surface with glass applied. But, when I apply it to a geoshell that includes the cornea and the sclera, there is no black edge. Looks like that's what you have here.

    I've been playing with your skin settings on a female character, trying to get that pale peaches and cream complexion. I think I have a good grasp on it and have found that now all I need to do is change the GTA color to get the shade of skin that I am after. Think suntans, ethnicity, olive complexion, etc.

  • HellboyHellboy Posts: 1,151
    edited December 1969

    No, those are custom made eye surfaces with a custom bump map.
    I'll experiment with other glass settings later.

    I wan't to see what you do next. :)

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