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Just because 'the average guy' isn't looking, doesn't mean I'm not... I'm my own worst critic but the goal here isn't to determine 'photorealism' but rather to point out that people should be looking at reality. To me, the goal is to be able to produce real looking characters whose complex and rich details tell its own story... that my beautiful model spent many days on the beach wearing a certain bikini and now I see lines and variations on the skin that are part of the story of my character. Close in details.. finger prints, palm prints.. hair on the back of the arms and neck.. facial hair, pores.
Still characters are being produced that are bland and cartoonish as if the authors have forgotten what real people look like... So.. I'm hoping they start to look at what they are producing a little closer and remember what real people look like now that we have the technology. We have the technology. The end results can only be as good as the products we start with... garbage in and you get garbage out... which is not to define what is garbage.
It seems to me the most common response is that none of the characters look real and still nobodies looking to fix the blandness issue. WHERES THE DETAILS?
Well really I looked closely at the G3M and G2M and G2F and G3F default head textures and there is nothing bland or generic about them. They are made from photographs of living, breathing, individuals and inspection of those textures will show you that. LOL, you can even see on the some of the head textures missed beard stubble when shaving.
They only seem to become geneic and bland after repeated use by many different people that use the same textures and post their artwork. Well, what should one expect? That's what those textures where created to be used for.
I agree but its nothing to do with scars, blemishes, freckles, pimples .. and everything to do with the amount of details and variations, every body tells a unique story but its the details ... those minute variations that if they are missing like they are in almost 95 percent of characters, the brain screams 'fake' and it turns people off.
"The devil is in the details"... In an age of 'ultra high definition' we have no excuses.
Yes I beleive she only goes By "Syyd" these days
https://www.daz3d.com/vanilla-sky-sss-stand-alone
I still use the vanilla sky for V4 on the G2 female
I think its more a case of being 'conditioned'. Authors have been in the business since Poser had a mostly stick figure look about them... It's a common theme of 'old school' versus innovations. You'll find a lot of people come out and argue for their own limitations rather then try to raise the bar for everybody by laying blame and pointing to personal ability...
The goal is to raise the bar.. If people lack the ability its because we haven't provided them with tools that made it easy then... It should be so easy that ANYBODY CAN DO IT. This isn't some exclusive club folks.. Art is for everybody!
If you can do better then show the people how to do it.
I dont think everyone wants freckles pimples or pores though. Many people seek to render fantasy or larger than life figures. I personally loathe pores on characters since they are often oversized. And usually on the nose looking like blackheads in need of a good facial.
We got that fantasy market covered just fine... raise the bar... thats all I'm saying is that it should be easy for everybody to do every render as 'amazingly real'... We have the technology..
The big problem is the texture stretching
on protruding parts like the nose
making to pores look larger.
Whatever the reason, I never buy products that have large pores, as they ruin the aesthetic for me. If I need blemishes I have brushes to add those in where I want them. For some reason when they are included they tend to be mostly on Male characters for some reason. It looks really strange especially when the rest of the product the character is hairless and perfectly groomed. Everyone likes different stuff but noses in need of a biore strip is not my cuppa tea.
At any case, I do think the market is hosting what is selling-more or less.
I think realisitc additions like skin blemishes, hair, moles, etc, are doable. But I'm not sure that many will embrace adding those to their digital dolls beyond cute tweaks to make them different. Of course time will tell. =-)
Lucky for you then that the vast majority of products sold by DAZ are perfectly suited for your taste... Now let's see if I can get some products that I prefer.. Remember... You already have an entire library to reach for just like I do... We are not in competition. We can both have products that we want to see on the market if DAZ is willing to start listening to customers like me... I won't be buying any more characters until I see ones worthy of my money since I already own 50 Gen 3 females and 25 males... In other words unless its really a great looking character.. I have no need to buy more... so I'm hoping the qaulity I want to see without having to add details that should already be in the named characters. You argue for making it difficult for other people to make realistic characters when we should be making it easier for everybody by making it POSE, POINT and SHOOT... it should be that easy.
https://www.daz3d.com/nino-for-genesis-3-male
For me personally, I think the very recent addition of Nino for Genesis 3 is a definate game changer and I think Faber Inc. deserves a nod... I'm really pleased by the amount of details put into this character.
I hope to see more characters that look as good. Thanks Faber Inc.
Thank you SnowPheonix! I really appreacite your comments and Im really excited to see you are enjoying using Nino.
I will be publishing similar content soon ;)
Glad to see you back in the game, Faber! Marco and Joss were two of my favorites from the M4/V4 era. :)
Thank you Odaa! :D haha that was a good era (millions of years ago :P)
/sigh I could just not resist any longer to comment on this...
edited. rephrased multiple times.
In theory. Yes.
Scanning human models
Big studios use advanced capture technology like "Lightstage".
Example video:
Behind the Magic- Creating The Hulk for -The Avengers
https://vimeo.com/118761364
-> When you scan real humans with such technology you gain both:
high quality textures and high quality surface detail in the form of actual high resolution geometry.
- - -
Mixing photographic reference with microdetail geometry at UHD resolution
Some artists make the effort to use stock footage photographs.
The big challenge now is to add the missing details like pores.
You can import stock footage to Zbrush and then "stamp" some pore detail from other sources and combine it to a new set of diffuse maps. At this stage you can also add or remove wrinkles to adjust the age of the character.
This can get you good enough results to simulate actual skin.
-> You can export high resolution displacement maps
or
-> You could create "UHD morphs" that require the user to dial in subdivision level 4 at around 4'000'000 vertices or the corresponding render subdivision level.
- - -
Merchant Resources with painted bump and normal maps
At other stores that support older generation figures you can still find characters released that rely on merchant resources. To change the look people "paint" some more details on diffuse and bump maps and then maybe convert it to a normal map.
- - -
Bump and normal maps are detectable as simplified simulation
-> The usability for photorealism between those three extreme forms of techniques is huge.
With current render engines like Iray and OctaneRender the end result would improve drastically by using actual geometry detail, high quality morphs or displacement maps.
Any assets that still are relying on bump and normal maps stick out as artificial in close ups.
-> If you want to make the details visible you need to work with high resolutions.
To work with high resolutions you need the proper hardware.
In the next few years that hardware may become more affordable on a consumer level.
- - -
Obviously some people are not interested in "photorealism".
Well put. Nothing is keeping artists to release the types of models they enjoy creating.
If there is a market for fantasy type stylistic 3d figures then surely that market will not be destroyed by releasing ultra high quality scanned figures as well in the store.
-> I hope DAZ3D can partner up with companies that have experience in creating 3D scans from actual human beings.
-> Those companies pay actual human models to get their scan data. Scan data of "normal" human models that are not celebrities could be licensed to customers without any usage restriction.
- - -
I'm actually not arguing or stating that at all and honestly have no opinion about that. I'm simply stating Pa's make products that result in big sales, This is what I've been told by Pa's many times. They don't for example make as many men's products or versions of products as often as women's releases. Because those don't sell well. It doesn't have much to do with what either your or I want, as much as it has to do with what the base buyers want to buy here.
What people forget is that the whole point of the Genesis characters and their addons is to provide multi use solution to help the end user create their vision. The technology created for the Genesis characters was done to allow for a great deal of mixing between the differnet characters, addon morphs and the many different skins and still have the differnt hair and outfits fit reletively well which was not availble for the people figures prior to Genesis. Whether someone want to render young or old, it is simply a matter of finding the right products in the store to help create that vision.
Daz3D did at one time in the past have their own 3D scanner to scan people. That was used for the generation 4 line, especially for the elite products and Reby Skye. They no longer have it. The main issue wtih using hi-res skin images is the amount of Vram they will consume when rendered in Iray. If they are resized however, then detail is lost. Its a Catch 22. The other issue is that beyond a certain distance, detail are not noticable to the human eye, so hi-res maps would be a waste in certain situations. Not all, just some.
There will never be a perfect solution to all of this as technology keeps changing and so does the way we do things. Time and money are the two largest factors that affect us all in every business and not just here.
I think a large portion of what causes the 'uncanny valley' problem (in addition to what's already been mentioned) is SYMMETRY. Real people are not perfectly symmetrical from left to right. SMALL amounts of asymmetry can make the character MUCH more realistic to human perceptions. I'd love to see a good set of asymmetry morphs.....for both male and female characters. And then use a randomizer to apply small amounts. Boom. A more realistic model. Then you just need realistic textures/shaders/maps, realistic (physics) cloth and hair, and realistic lighting......
That is interesting! I read something once about a scandal or something involving Reby Skye, but I can't remember what it was about.
3D scanning is something DAZ should consider doing again.
Thanks for the concise summary. It was interesting.
AND THERE IT IS !!!
That said you have to give create to the many individuals that are doing just that. Everybody in theory can take photographs as good as a pro, but not many do. Professional level film equipment is now available to even the person of modest means, but not everybody is a Scorsese. The point is mastering your craft is NOT easy. It takes a lot of work, and the majority of people aren't up to the call. That being said mastering Daz is rather difficult for people wanting to master it, because the instructions to master it are not structured, the way other software programs are, nor do they keep pace with the updates to the software.
Actually I dislike Scorsese's films so I'd have no desire to learn his style. I've never been one to consider commercial success or popularity to be indications of superiority. Lots of popular things should be avoided, eg tobacco and nicotine use.
And when scores of people are pulling in different directions with their demands calls to 'show everyone how to do it right' are trouble to try and fulfill. So of course I'm not going to take that bait.
As it does so happen I and others do take time to answer legitimate questions and indicate how we did things for people that do like the 'style' I've done on a few of my renders. Not as much as others have but then I and most of these others that have answered technical questions or said how we did things are just hobbyists and not professionals or employees of DAZ.
There is an aspect of this discussion that deals with the distances and bridges between our conscious and our unconscious mindsets; and how each of them operate to support our individual sense of safety and ego. Conscious responses and unconscious responses are two separate threads and any meaningful discussion on "realism" in my view will touch on what it takes to satisfy each of these particluar mindsets.
Consider this; when listening to an Opera performed in a foreign language; even if you do not understand on a conscious level exactly what they are talking about (lyrics), you likely do understand on an unconscious level that what she's singing about must be something important otherwise she wouldnt be holding this crazy high note for such a long period of time (music). It would be surprising to find out afterward that the entire opera was about nothing more than making cookie dough... because the high emotional stakes indicated to our unconscious minds by the dramatic musical score doesn't match with the input received on the conscious level when discussing nothing more than cookie dough. The inappropriateness of a full opera dedicated to merely making cookie dough is bound to elicit a response of humor on the part of the viewers. Its the simple math of comedy, the reaction does not match with the stimuli resulting in instant humor.
But what about when the joke is being played directly on the viewers themselves wirthout their consent to play along??
If crossing the valley is the goal, then to some degree this discussion is about magic, or at least magicians. Willfully playing tricks on other people for the sole purpose of sport. Just because we can. Making guinea pigs of unsuspecting people. In this case wiriting a huge and dramatic musical score about the unknown perils of onion farming knowing the tickets sold for $600 each
Not everyone can cope with having a trick played on them and will resist buying into much of anything no matter how smartly presented
I suspect that most adults are comforted by the notion that they can in most instances discern reality from fantasy. That only the "real thing" can affect us in particular ways. "Aint nothing like the real thing."
Except, maybe there is.
Some people, even if they dont like being toyed with, can still find room to appreciate a well crafted gambit. These people are willing to separate their conscious from their unconscious perceptions without much difficulty and to find the humor so to speak
But some other people might decide that seeking realism is just a waste of their time and might even take some degree of offense to the idea that some people out there might want to convince them of things which are not true.
Some of us are so determined not to be taken in by other mere mortals and their merely humanoid antics that we will always find something wrong with a render so as to not feel the need to suspend belief for too long.
When we do see renders that are so realistic as to convince our unconscious minds that its okay not to reject this visual information as fantasy, we get a little bit of a rush feeling once we read the caption and learn that the "photo" we just ignored on a conscious level was indeed a render someone actually made (somebody other than God). Suddnely we take the time to perceive this manmade offering image with our conscious mindset, where we suddenly will begin to observe many flaws, as well as many things executed well. We're not bad people. Long ago we had to learn to accept that those shoulders on Vicky 3 werent real shoulders on any real human that ever lived. Being taken by the trick some magician has set for us, we realize our grasp on reality isnt infinitely tight. Its humbling to say the least, and humble pie isnt the flavor we're always in the mood for.
What I'm saying is that many of us routinely resist being convinced, even if only on an unconsious level, because we dont want to give other humans and technology itself the benefit of being able to manipulate our mindset by making us perceive things as real which are not real.
The issue isnt pores, or wrinkles, or displacement or hd morphs. it's the fact that we are a highly suspect audience, very difficult to please, because of our unwillingnes to let ourselves be taken. If you can get us out of our heads, trick us into thinking we're in control of the trickery, we can be taken for a ride just like anyone else. But there's no getting around it, trickery is the essential item.
THIS!!!!!^
I have used "Professional "Character animation programs Such as Lightwave3D, Maxon Cinema4D
and ,of course Poser Daz studio and Reallusion Iclone Pro.
I can tell you with absolute certainty that NO Company has created easier tools for Quickly creating posable customizable characters than DAZ.
That used to be the Case for poser but the Autofit & transfer utility Puts Daz in the Lead.
If one takes the time to Look at what others are doing,
you will see they are all copying the DAZ poser paradigm of Character creation/customization by the end user
Adobe Fuse.
Autodesk has an online Character creator for Max/Maya.
and Reallusion has separate Character creator app
They all have morph sliders/dials and changable clothing options.
The very tools/options that used to be subject of ridicule and derision by the "Pros" a decade ago.
And today the companies who ignore these types character tools are being left in the dust in the area of human/humanoid character based works
(Like Maxon).
I dont know how much easier people need this to be.
This notion that one must become some sort of master technician or highly skilled professional to move morph dials in Daz studio, Boggles My mind.
I've just submitted this to the gallery as I'm pleased with how it's turned out.
I prefer to strive for believable, as opposed to real; because in the real world, I've seen real that wasn't believable. I think I've managed it with this image, although the longer one spends looking at the image, the more there is to notice. But there comes a point when a project has to be considered finished, and this was a test as opposed to a project - just one I was happy with; I'm rarely happy with my renders.
... The hair needed more work.
I'm definitely putting your post into that category, Rashad.
I always kind of get annoyed when people bring up Reba Skye and the fact that DAZ has always lived on the cutting edge of this technology for the amatuer market. BUT!..
We are talking the difference in technology from the 1990's to TWENTY YEARS LATER... From a technological perspective we are talking DVD drives vs Ultra High Definition Blue Ray with wifi and smart phones.. no comparisons can be made.. Your not quite talking about Apple 2 but Windows 97 was hot when Reba Skye came out... time to update the models. We have the technology.... let's put it to use for all of us. Art is for everybody... you can still keep your 'multi use' generic characters with washed out details and hopefully the rest of us can have the products we want. We are not in compitition. Smart business people expand product ranges and diversify to satify all their customers so I know in the end....
I'll get the product I want. Enough interest is out there. If you want people to scan, I strongly suggest going to Hollywood California where thousands of Porn Stars would absolutely LOVE to be the subject of thousands of digital artist renders on the cheap because of the name recognition alone.
Good luck and thanks.
We don't actually know there is enough interest out there to make the characters you want worth their financial trouble, though.
And I think DAZ knows what is selling. They really do. Whether it is what you want, only they know.
Windows 97 was hot in December 2010?