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  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    edited January 2016

     

    Richard Haseltine said:
    Novica said:
    And yuck- if I use Connect and download/install Product A, if it still shows up in DIM as needing to be installed, that's horrible. What happens if I install it from DIM too? Two copies or one? (I assume one since it's going to the same location as the other one. But what a waste of bandwidth!) 

    DS 4.9 will use the Connect version, if there is one. If the DIM files are identical (MD5 check) to the Connect files then Connect will copy them isntead of downloading.

    There is an important caveat here. The files on the Connect server are compressed (Gzip) so the MD5 Hash will only match if the files for the product in your content directory are also compressed. (Which you can do within DS or in an external program.) 

    Post edited by DAZ_Spooky on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 107,907
    DAZ_Spooky said:

     

    Richard Haseltine said:
    Novica said:
    And yuck- if I use Connect and download/install Product A, if it still shows up in DIM as needing to be installed, that's horrible. What happens if I install it from DIM too? Two copies or one? (I assume one since it's going to the same location as the other one. But what a waste of bandwidth!) 

    DS 4.9 will use the Connect version, if there is one. If the DIM files are identical (MD5 check) to the Connect files then Connect will copy them isntead of downloading.

    There is an important caveat here. The files on the Connect server are compressed (Gzip) so the MD5 Hash will only match if the files for the product in your content directory are also compressed. (Which you can do within DS or in an external program.) 

    Oops, sorry  -I did remember to add that in my other post on this feature.

  • X3ZX3Z Posts: 14
    edited January 2016

    Can i use textures in external programs and edit them in photoshop if i buy encrypted content?

    Post edited by X3Z on
  • TesseractSpaceTesseractSpace Posts: 1,582
    edited January 2016
    Richard Haseltine said:
    Blastedlabs said:

    And if it's not already completely obvious, if you download pirated content even if you own the un-pirated content, you are aiding in creating a market...a demand...for pirated goods. You're part of the problem.

    This is a logical fallacy. By definition, pirated goods are free. There's no market or demand. There's no money being exchanged. 

    The people who provide pirated goods often do it because of the challenge and glory.

    That is a factual fallacy - many of the DS and Poser warez sites charge for access.

    Gotta say in all the times I searched my one (defunct) product to see if it was being pirated (it was, big surprise. Not worth getting bent out of shape over though.) I never ran across a pirate site requiring payment. A handful seem to claim direct downloads instead of torrents for pay but they look rather dubious and more scam than anything else. Which given they don't need to actually have anything to claim they do to trick credit card numbers out of the gullible, they won't go anywhere even if DAZ had the mythical perfect DRM.
    Post edited by TesseractSpace on
  • dbdigital2dbdigital2 Posts: 270
    TesseractSpace said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    Blastedlabs said:

    And if it's not already completely obvious, if you download pirated content even if you own the un-pirated content, you are aiding in creating a market...a demand...for pirated goods. You're part of the problem.

    This is a logical fallacy. By definition, pirated goods are free. There's no market or demand. There's no money being exchanged. 

    The people who provide pirated goods often do it because of the challenge and glory.

    That is a factual fallacy - many of the DS and Poser warez sites charge for access.

     

    Gotta say in all the times I searched my one (defunct) product to see if it was being pirated (it was, big surprise. Not worth getting bent out of shape over though.) I never ran across a pirate site requiring payment. A handful seem to claim direct downloads instead of torrents for pay but they look rather dubious and more scam than anything else. Which given they don't need to actually have anything to claim they do to trick credit card numbers out of the gullible, they won't go anywhere even if DAZ had the mythical perfect DRM.

    I have to agree, I never ran across one that charged for access.  But then perhaps they require that when you actually try to download.  I never tried it.  I have in the past went looking to find out the size of a product zip.  Something the Daz store does not tell you (I found the pirate copies searching for this info).  And sometimes I wouldn't have bought something if I knew it was say 2+ GIGS in size for example.  So I began to check the sizes of a few items and compare if I wanted this product or that.  And in the end the file size was the determining factor if the products were similar.

    So I can understand Daz's feelings with all of the products out there for download like that, however DRM is not the way to go about it.  And in the end won't curb piracy.  The pirates will still crack and steal, it only drives your honest users nuts.  And those pirates you are worried about?  99.99% of them would never buy in the first place.   If they couldn't pirate they would go do something else.  Not pay.  The people that pirate will never pay plain and simple.  The sales are not going to go up by implementing DRM.  I have seen this tried over and over again by companies throughout the years, and it never actually helps sales.  The only thing DRM does is help appease investors.  Or content creators that have a DRM mindset (movie studios for example) and insist upon it.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 107,907
    ssgbryan said:

    Since I apparently can't move anything that installs via Connect - please help me figure out the following:

    DS creates the base mesh, on the fly, and installs every single character morph it can see.  Using default installs, I have the following issue:

    I fire up DS & I load Skyler - a 12 year old girl (a G2F figure).  Skyler gets every single genital morph that every g2f character has (Danika V6, Wachi (sp) V6, etc - there are a LOT of them.  Skyler doesn't need all of those gens morphs, nor does she need all of the boobage morphs.

    Currently, my method of insuring that all of the G2F gens morphs (not the separate geo-graft) are not loaded into the character is to move each of the offending .dsf files to a separate content folder that I don't load while working with child figures.

    When 3dUniverse releases their next g3f child character - just how the *&^% am I supposed to keep those encrypted gens and boobage morphs from loading into the child character?  I won't be able to move individual .dsf files, remember?

    Yes you will, though your log file may show errors. I admit I haven't tested, but theya re still separate .dsf.enc files in the Data\Cloud\1_#####\Data\Pub\Fig\Item\Morphs\Vendor\Product folder. It's possible, as I haven't tested, that the CMS would complain but that's easy enough to check (just download as mall morph package via Connect in 4.9/4.9 beta) that you don't have via DIM and see what happens if you move some or all of the files.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 107,907
    X3Z said:

    Can i use textures in external programs and edit them in photoshop if i buy encrypted content?

    Only native files - .dsf/.duf and script - are encrypted. Textures files are still plain image files, albeit in the \Data\Cloud\1_#####\Runtime\Textures folder.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,573

    Are the files that DAZ Connects downloads encrypted, or am I to understand from Spooky's comment, that the offline package is a normal zip, but some of the content files within the zip are encrypted? I ask because my runtime sits on a very fast M2 SSD drive which makes loading content really fast, however this drive is only 256GB, which is relatively modest by modern standards. Consequently I do not install everything immediately, but when I actually need it (this also prevents smart content from bloating with many products I currently do not need). However I do download the zips with DIM, and move the zip file to another directory, often with the promo shots so I can easily browse what I own when looking for a character, outfit etc I need at a later point. On occasion I will open the zip to look at the quality of the textures, before I install it, something that was not possible in the days when products were exe files. Will I still be able to look at DAZ Connect textures by opening the offline package file before installation? Or are the jpg, png etc also encrypted, and only unencrypted on installation? If the duf, dsf etc files are encrypted in the delivery file, that is less of an issue, as I would have no reason to want to look at them before installation.

  • MorpheonMorpheon Posts: 738
    edited January 2016
    Richard Haseltine said:
    Blastedlabs said:

    And if it's not already completely obvious, if you download pirated content even if you own the un-pirated content, you are aiding in creating a market...a demand...for pirated goods. You're part of the problem.

    This is a logical fallacy. By definition, pirated goods are free. There's no market or demand. There's no money being exchanged. 

    The people who provide pirated goods often do it because of the challenge and glory.

    That is a factual fallacy - many of the DS and Poser warez sites charge for access.

    I used to work in IT also, and had reason to look into this, so I can say that for every warez site charging a fee, there's a hundred that don't -- and that's where all the pirated DAZ, Rendo, RDNA, etc., content lives -- on the free sites. At most, a warez site will require you to create a free account to see the actual download links, and the vast majority don't even do that -- click on a Rapidgator or Keep2Share link or a torrent and away you go. This stuff isn't difficult to find, and anyone trying to charge a fee for it is simply passed up in favor of someone (or rather, LOTS of someones) who are making it available for free. These people are driven by peer recognition or the thrill of it all, not by financial gain.

     

     

    Post edited by Morpheon on
  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,573
    Morpheon said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    Blastedlabs said:

    And if it's not already completely obvious, if you download pirated content even if you own the un-pirated content, you are aiding in creating a market...a demand...for pirated goods. You're part of the problem.

    This is a logical fallacy. By definition, pirated goods are free. There's no market or demand. There's no money being exchanged. 

    The people who provide pirated goods often do it because of the challenge and glory.

    That is a factual fallacy - many of the DS and Poser warez sites charge for access.

    Just off the top of my head, for every warez site charging a fee, there's a hundred that don't -- and that's where all the pirated DAZ, Rendo, RDNA, etc., content lives -- on the free sites. At most, a warez site will require you to create a free account to see the download links, and the vast majority of the torrent sites don't even do that -- click on a torrent and away you go. This stuff isn't difficult to find, and anyone trying to charge a fee for it is simply passed up in favor of someone (or rather, LOTS of someones) who are making it available for free.

     

     

    Note that even these sites are likely to carry masses of adverts, so they earn money from that. Also they host the content on file sharing sites where they get a slice of income from anyone downloading the stuff with premium accounts. So even the so called free pirate sites, are still earning money from stolen content, even when they are not charging directly for access. The torrent sites will also carry adverts.

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    edited January 2016
    Havos said:

    Are the files that DAZ Connects downloads encrypted, or am I to understand from Spooky's comment, that the offline package is a normal zip, but some of the content files within the zip are encrypted? I ask because my runtime sits on a very fast M2 SSD drive which makes loading content really fast, however this drive is only 256GB, which is relatively modest by modern standards. Consequently I do not install everything immediately, but when I actually need it (this also prevents smart content from bloating with many products I currently do not need). However I do download the zips with DIM, and move the zip file to another directory, often with the promo shots so I can easily browse what I own when looking for a character, outfit etc I need at a later point. On occasion I will open the zip to look at the quality of the textures, before I install it, something that was not possible in the days when products were exe files. Will I still be able to look at DAZ Connect textures by opening the offline package file before installation? Or are the jpg, png etc also encrypted, and only unencrypted on installation? If the duf, dsf etc files are encrypted in the delivery file, that is less of an issue, as I would have no reason to want to look at them before installation.

    The offline Daz Connect files that you can download are encrypted. Once they are installed, they are either encrypted or not, depending on whether the content is Encrypted Daz Connect only files or not. If you can download a file through your choice of Install Manager, just an Install Manager Zip or Daz Connect, then the file is not encrypted once it is on your system.
    Post edited by DAZ_Spooky on
  • MorpheonMorpheon Posts: 738
    edited January 2016
    Havos said:
    Morpheon said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    Blastedlabs said:

    And if it's not already completely obvious, if you download pirated content even if you own the un-pirated content, you are aiding in creating a market...a demand...for pirated goods. You're part of the problem.

    This is a logical fallacy. By definition, pirated goods are free. There's no market or demand. There's no money being exchanged. 

    The people who provide pirated goods often do it because of the challenge and glory.

    That is a factual fallacy - many of the DS and Poser warez sites charge for access.

    Just off the top of my head, for every warez site charging a fee, there's a hundred that don't -- and that's where all the pirated DAZ, Rendo, RDNA, etc., content lives -- on the free sites. At most, a warez site will require you to create a free account to see the download links, and the vast majority of the torrent sites don't even do that -- click on a torrent and away you go. This stuff isn't difficult to find, and anyone trying to charge a fee for it is simply passed up in favor of someone (or rather, LOTS of someones) who are making it available for free.

     

     

    Note that even these sites are likely to carry masses of adverts, so they earn money from that. Also they host the content on file sharing sites where they get a slice of income from anyone downloading the stuff with premium accounts. So even the so called free pirate sites, are still earning money from stolen content, even when they are not charging directly for access. The torrent sites will also carry adverts.

    You know what: you're absolutely right -- I had totally forgotten that in addressing the notion of warez sites charging people for access to download the pirated content. Perhaps I should have said that the individual pirates themselves appear to be driven by the thrill or peer esteem, judging by the ranking systems they all seem to employ. The people running the hosting sites, tho', ARE an entirely different matter: they're facilitators and aggregators, but typically not the people who actually purchase the content itself with the intent of redistributing it. 

    Post edited by Morpheon on
  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996
    edited January 2016

     

    Havos said:
    Morpheon said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    Blastedlabs said:

    And if it's not already completely obvious, if you download pirated content even if you own the un-pirated content, you are aiding in creating a market...a demand...for pirated goods. You're part of the problem.

    This is a logical fallacy. By definition, pirated goods are free. There's no market or demand. There's no money being exchanged. 

    The people who provide pirated goods often do it because of the challenge and glory.

    That is a factual fallacy - many of the DS and Poser warez sites charge for access.

    Just off the top of my head, for every warez site charging a fee, there's a hundred that don't -- and that's where all the pirated DAZ, Rendo, RDNA, etc., content lives -- on the free sites. At most, a warez site will require you to create a free account to see the download links, and the vast majority of the torrent sites don't even do that -- click on a torrent and away you go. This stuff isn't difficult to find, and anyone trying to charge a fee for it is simply passed up in favor of someone (or rather, LOTS of someones) who are making it available for free.

     

     

    Note that even these sites are likely to carry masses of adverts, so they earn money from that. Also they host the content on file sharing sites where they get a slice of income from anyone downloading the stuff with premium accounts. So even the so called free pirate sites, are still earning money from stolen content, even when they are not charging directly for access. The torrent sites will also carry adverts.

    The idea that people are going on pirate and torrent sites that don't also know to block absolutely every element they don't have to kind of makes my brain hurt, though. I don't even go on normal sites without having every page element I don't need blocked v.v Also while the torrent sites are getting money from it the people posting tend to be doing it for recognition/thrill/wanting everything shared as a sort of group subsidy, if that makes sense - at least that's my understanding of it.

    That said while torrents and things are undesirable I'd be much more worried about people who are actively scamming Daz and reselling. If someone buys my thing and then shares it to the world for free then I'd probably be sad, sure, but if someone stole it from me and then sold it themselves I'd be way more pissed. I still find it confusing that the effort is going towards the former and not the latter. Sure both are bad things but is it really worth the bad PR and potentially burning so many customers just to stop the small fry and leave the big ones unaffected (or having the better versions of your own product, since theirs will be unencrypted) ?

    p.s. Richard if you're the mod editing my posts you are an awesome mod for subtle adjusting rather than just trashing things because there was some random element that was bad in a post or quoted~

    Post edited by lx_2807502 on
  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,573
    DAZ_Spooky said:
    Havos said:

    Are the files that DAZ Connects downloads encrypted, or am I to understand from Spooky's comment, that the offline package is a normal zip, but some of the content files within the zip are encrypted? I ask because my runtime sits on a very fast M2 SSD drive which makes loading content really fast, however this drive is only 256GB, which is relatively modest by modern standards. Consequently I do not install everything immediately, but when I actually need it (this also prevents smart content from bloating with many products I currently do not need). However I do download the zips with DIM, and move the zip file to another directory, often with the promo shots so I can easily browse what I own when looking for a character, outfit etc I need at a later point. On occasion I will open the zip to look at the quality of the textures, before I install it, something that was not possible in the days when products were exe files. Will I still be able to look at DAZ Connect textures by opening the offline package file before installation? Or are the jpg, png etc also encrypted, and only unencrypted on installation? If the duf, dsf etc files are encrypted in the delivery file, that is less of an issue, as I would have no reason to want to look at them before installation.

     

    The offline Daz Connect files that you can download are encrypted. Once they are installed, they are either encrypted or not, depending on whether the content is Encrypted Daz Connect only files or not. If you can download a file through your choice of Install Manager, just an Install Manager Zip or Daz Connect, then the file is not encrypted once it is on your system.

    OK thanks, I guess I could install with DAZ Connect, zip up the contents to move elsewhere, then uninstall if I do not need it immediately. A bit more work, but doable. One of the things I do like about DAZ Connect is that all the files for a particular product are held in a single directory structure, much better than mixing them all up like the current position.

  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996
    Havos said:
    DAZ_Spooky said:
    Havos said:

    Are the files that DAZ Connects downloads encrypted, or am I to understand from Spooky's comment, that the offline package is a normal zip, but some of the content files within the zip are encrypted? I ask because my runtime sits on a very fast M2 SSD drive which makes loading content really fast, however this drive is only 256GB, which is relatively modest by modern standards. Consequently I do not install everything immediately, but when I actually need it (this also prevents smart content from bloating with many products I currently do not need). However I do download the zips with DIM, and move the zip file to another directory, often with the promo shots so I can easily browse what I own when looking for a character, outfit etc I need at a later point. On occasion I will open the zip to look at the quality of the textures, before I install it, something that was not possible in the days when products were exe files. Will I still be able to look at DAZ Connect textures by opening the offline package file before installation? Or are the jpg, png etc also encrypted, and only unencrypted on installation? If the duf, dsf etc files are encrypted in the delivery file, that is less of an issue, as I would have no reason to want to look at them before installation.

     

    The offline Daz Connect files that you can download are encrypted. Once they are installed, they are either encrypted or not, depending on whether the content is Encrypted Daz Connect only files or not. If you can download a file through your choice of Install Manager, just an Install Manager Zip or Daz Connect, then the file is not encrypted once it is on your system.

    OK thanks, I guess I could install with DAZ Connect, zip up the contents to move elsewhere, then uninstall if I do not need it immediately. A bit more work, but doable. One of the things I do like about DAZ Connect is that all the files for a particular product are held in a single directory structure, much better than mixing them all up like the current position.

    I would like the Connect file structer a lot better too - if it wasn't split via SKUs and actually had some sort of name reference for me to tell folders apart visually.

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    Havos said:
    DAZ_Spooky said:
    Havos said:

    Are the files that DAZ Connects downloads encrypted, or am I to understand from Spooky's comment, that the offline package is a normal zip, but some of the content files within the zip are encrypted? I ask because my runtime sits on a very fast M2 SSD drive which makes loading content really fast, however this drive is only 256GB, which is relatively modest by modern standards. Consequently I do not install everything immediately, but when I actually need it (this also prevents smart content from bloating with many products I currently do not need). However I do download the zips with DIM, and move the zip file to another directory, often with the promo shots so I can easily browse what I own when looking for a character, outfit etc I need at a later point. On occasion I will open the zip to look at the quality of the textures, before I install it, something that was not possible in the days when products were exe files. Will I still be able to look at DAZ Connect textures by opening the offline package file before installation? Or are the jpg, png etc also encrypted, and only unencrypted on installation? If the duf, dsf etc files are encrypted in the delivery file, that is less of an issue, as I would have no reason to want to look at them before installation.

     

    The offline Daz Connect files that you can download are encrypted. Once they are installed, they are either encrypted or not, depending on whether the content is Encrypted Daz Connect only files or not. If you can download a file through your choice of Install Manager, just an Install Manager Zip or Daz Connect, then the file is not encrypted once it is on your system.

    OK thanks, I guess I could install with DAZ Connect, zip up the contents to move elsewhere, then uninstall if I do not need it immediately. A bit more work, but doable. One of the things I do like about DAZ Connect is that all the files for a particular product are held in a single directory structure, much better than mixing them all up like the current position.

    If you are logged in and you load a scene that is missing a product, and you own the product, it will ask if you want to install the product so the scene file will properly load for you. If you don't own it, it will let you know what products you are missing, and allow you to buy them. So the scene files that people can add to their gallery images can be used.
  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996
    ssgbryan said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    ssgbryan said:

    Since I apparently can't move anything that installs via Connect - please help me figure out the following:

    DS creates the base mesh, on the fly, and installs every single character morph it can see.  Using default installs, I have the following issue:

    I fire up DS & I load Skyler - a 12 year old girl (a G2F figure).  Skyler gets every single genital morph that every g2f character has (Danika V6, Wachi (sp) V6, etc - there are a LOT of them.  Skyler doesn't need all of those gens morphs, nor does she need all of the boobage morphs.

    Currently, my method of insuring that all of the G2F gens morphs (not the separate geo-graft) are not loaded into the character is to move each of the offending .dsf files to a separate content folder that I don't load while working with child figures.

    When 3dUniverse releases their next g3f child character - just how the *&^% am I supposed to keep those encrypted gens and boobage morphs from loading into the child character?  I won't be able to move individual .dsf files, remember?

    Yes you will, though your log file may show errors. I admit I haven't tested, but theya re still separate .dsf.enc files in the Data\Cloud\1_#####\Data\Pub\Fig\Item\Morphs\Vendor\Product folder. It's possible, as I haven't tested, that the CMS would complain but that's easy enough to check (just download as mall morph package via Connect in 4.9/4.9 beta) that you don't have via DIM and see what happens if you move some or all of the files.

    1.  We have no encrypted base meshs at this point - I will put money up right now that the next generation of genesis will be encrypted from word go.

    2.  We have no encrypted child characters at this point.  I realize that DAZ just makes stuff up as they go, but some of us plan ahead. 

    If you haven't (or anyone at DAZ) hasn't tested this, then this is just idle speculation on your part.  As a customer, I am geting tired of everyone connected to DAZ suggesting that it is my responsibility to be the guinia pigs.

    DAZ is pushing this nonsense, DAZ needs to address this - not the customer.

     

    I don't really get this. The character isn't loading with these morphs dialed in, is it? Can't you simply not use them? I don't use the Emaciated morph a whole lot either, but I don't worry that I won't be able to strike it from the Earth if the file is encrypted.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,573
    ssgbryan said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    ssgbryan said:

    Since I apparently can't move anything that installs via Connect - please help me figure out the following:

    DS creates the base mesh, on the fly, and installs every single character morph it can see.  Using default installs, I have the following issue:

    I fire up DS & I load Skyler - a 12 year old girl (a G2F figure).  Skyler gets every single genital morph that every g2f character has (Danika V6, Wachi (sp) V6, etc - there are a LOT of them.  Skyler doesn't need all of those gens morphs, nor does she need all of the boobage morphs.

    Currently, my method of insuring that all of the G2F gens morphs (not the separate geo-graft) are not loaded into the character is to move each of the offending .dsf files to a separate content folder that I don't load while working with child figures.

    When 3dUniverse releases their next g3f child character - just how the *&^% am I supposed to keep those encrypted gens and boobage morphs from loading into the child character?  I won't be able to move individual .dsf files, remember?

    Yes you will, though your log file may show errors. I admit I haven't tested, but theya re still separate .dsf.enc files in the Data\Cloud\1_#####\Data\Pub\Fig\Item\Morphs\Vendor\Product folder. It's possible, as I haven't tested, that the CMS would complain but that's easy enough to check (just download as mall morph package via Connect in 4.9/4.9 beta) that you don't have via DIM and see what happens if you move some or all of the files.

    1.  We have no encrypted base meshs at this point - I will put money up right now that the next generation of genesis will be encrypted from word go.

    2.  We have no encrypted child characters at this point.  I realize that DAZ just makes stuff up as they go, but some of us plan ahead. 

    If you haven't (or anyone at DAZ) hasn't tested this, then this is just idle speculation on your part.  As a customer, I am geting tired of everyone connected to DAZ suggesting that it is my responsibility to be the guinia pigs.

    DAZ is pushing this nonsense, DAZ needs to address this - not the customer.

     

    I remember in the beta encryption thread the encryption of future base meshes was being discussed, and one of the DAZ guys (maybe Spooky, I am not sure), said that whilst he could not guarantee it would not happen, there would be little commercial sense in encrypting a base mesh that was being given away for free. Remember DAZ wants both current and potential future PAs to develop content for any new mesh, and letting them look at it in full detail would make a lot more sense, even from DAZ's perspective alone.

  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996

    Personally I hope we just don't see a Genesis 4 female for a very long time. G3F already feels a bit rushed in the face of G2F and hasn't had time to be rounded out (especially since half its characters are essentially clones) but the real issue is that the thing I feel is holding characters back now (in terms of realism Iray etc that Daz is pushing) is not the character but the hair. 

    I would much rather Daz focused their efforts on a new type of hair system that could keep up with even the Genesis characters rather than a tiny incremental new generation of figures that doesn't work with the past lot. Maybe that's not feasible, I don't know. But just continually releasing slightler newer versions of the same stuff doesn't feel like a long lasting business model. You need to innovate into new areas. I don't need to buy another Victoria even if she is slightly prettier and so encrypted or not, I'm not going to do so nearly as often. If she is encrypted, then why would I want one a tiny bit better when I have a perfectly functional one I can edit completely?

    If you're going to encrypt things and make them Studio only, make something that's actually completely different from what the many other stores (and your own) are selling unencrypted which are soon going to become vastly preferable to many customers.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,573

    I would put my money on a Genesis 4 in June 2017, but we can only wait and see

  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996

    I definitely wouldn't bet against you, but I also don't really see the appeal to buy into that.

    V4 was the best thing ever (apparently) so that's fine. Genesis didn't really look much different but brought super unifying technology which was really awesome for not having to buy separate characters and having them work together, etc. But there were male/female issues and so Genesis 2 replacing them made sense too. But then Genesis 3 came out really quickly and offered ... what? Some better bends, better face rigging, and less detailed topology unless you happen to be a Daz approved HD maker. I'm still buying some of them because I think they look good, but... I don't think I could be convinced to go for another incremental improvement that was also encrypted to boot.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,573
    lx said:

    I definitely wouldn't bet against you, but I also don't really see the appeal to buy into that.

    V4 was the best thing ever (apparently) so that's fine. Genesis didn't really look much different but brought super unifying technology which was really awesome for not having to buy separate characters and having them work together, etc. But there were male/female issues and so Genesis 2 replacing them made sense too. But then Genesis 3 came out really quickly and offered ... what? Some better bends, better face rigging, and less detailed topology unless you happen to be a Daz approved HD maker. I'm still buying some of them because I think they look good, but... I don't think I could be convinced to go for another incremental improvement that was also encrypted to boot.

    I agree with pretty much everything you said there

  • Cris PalominoCris Palomino Posts: 12,440
    lx said:

    I definitely wouldn't bet against you, but I also don't really see the appeal to buy into that.

    V4 was the best thing ever (apparently) so that's fine. Genesis didn't really look much different but brought super unifying technology which was really awesome for not having to buy separate characters and having them work together, etc. But there were male/female issues and so Genesis 2 replacing them made sense too. But then Genesis 3 came out really quickly and offered ... what? Some better bends, better face rigging, and less detailed topology unless you happen to be a Daz approved HD maker. I'm still buying some of them because I think they look good, but... I don't think I could be convinced to go for another incremental improvement that was also encrypted to boot.

    Yes, but the better bends, in particular, is what many people have been asking for every time a new figure appears.  The topology does not keep details from being added.  You don't need HD for that all the time.  It really depends.  A lot can be done with normals and displacement.  We have come miles forward from V4 and I, for one, am truly glad.  All things considered, she is a great model who has stood the test of time, but people have higher expectations and they are, for me, being met by the newer models. 

  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996
    Cris Palomino said:
    lx said:

    I definitely wouldn't bet against you, but I also don't really see the appeal to buy into that.

    V4 was the best thing ever (apparently) so that's fine. Genesis didn't really look much different but brought super unifying technology which was really awesome for not having to buy separate characters and having them work together, etc. But there were male/female issues and so Genesis 2 replacing them made sense too. But then Genesis 3 came out really quickly and offered ... what? Some better bends, better face rigging, and less detailed topology unless you happen to be a Daz approved HD maker. I'm still buying some of them because I think they look good, but... I don't think I could be convinced to go for another incremental improvement that was also encrypted to boot.

    Yes, but the better bends, in particular, is what many people have been asking for every time a new figure appears.  The topology does not keep details from being added.  You don't need HD for that all the time.  It really depends.  A lot can be done with normals and displacement.  We have come miles forward from V4 and I, for one, am truly glad.  All things considered, she is a great model who has stood the test of time, but people have higher expectations and they are, for me, being met by the newer models. 

    No, I completely agree that the models now are way better than they used to be - although the gap between G2 and G3 seems much smaller than the previous generations. My main point is that the characters now are getting slightly better than the previous ones, but the other elements needed for the scene are starting to lag behind. Most notably hair (this isn't an artist problem but the technology we currently use.) The hair models we have now look nice but ... they almost never compare to the realism even older characters were offering, and trying to do things like lying down or making a specific hair wet is just no. So often the hair dictates the scene (at least for me) rather than the other way around.

    I don't have an easy answer to this either, but if there's going to be an all new encrypted Studio-only generation, I'd rather see something that tackles the other elements to provide a complete picture, rather than just let's start over with a new generation and some small improvements to an already amazing looking model.

  • hjakehjake Posts: 1,266

    I now live in a town that thinks 2Mbps upload and 15Mbps download are high speed.  I can not use any software as a service and the whole download the content you need as you go is a non-starter.  I'm fine with Daz offering the Daz Connect as an option for those who want it, but if the day comes that I can't download and install my own zip then I guess Daz and i are travelling separate paths.

  • fixmypcmikefixmypcmike Posts: 19,683
    hjake said:

    I now live in a town that thinks 2Mbps upload and 15Mbps download are high speed.  I can not use any software as a service and the whole download the content you need as you go is a non-starter.  I'm fine with Daz offering the Daz Connect as an option for those who want it, but if the day comes that I can't download and install my own zip then I guess Daz and i are travelling separate paths.

    You don't have to download the content you need as you go, you can download whenever you normally do.  And you don't have to download the whole product if a few files get updated.

  • 3dOutlaw3dOutlaw Posts: 2,481
    edited January 2016

    I saw all these arguments and mudslinging matches before years ago on the Reallusion forum they still have DRM and their stuff is still on torrents, I only know as a person who attacked me on youtube challenged me to look at his portfolio and I did and found his warez site which I promptlty reported and got taken down.  So it has been going on everywhere sadly even with the big boys Autodesk and Adobe etc.

    I do not condone it but all DRM does is punish legit users most the time when things go bad on their hardware, been there myself with iClone.

    It was asked "why" early on in this thread, DRM was bad...this about sums it up for me.  There is no benefit to the legit end user in this, only possible downsides. (many already mentioned)  Already decided not to upgrade, and am taking a wait and see position for how it all pans out.  I am a little sad by it all, as I am/was a big fan, and an offsite vendor of compatible products.

    Post edited by 3dOutlaw on
  • Robert FreiseRobert Freise Posts: 4,573

    Just slapping the forum gremlin to bump start notifications again

This discussion has been closed.