Poser support being run down?
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I am not a Poser user, but in all honesty I don't understand why DAZ should support Poser by default.
It would be something at the vendor end to make it available to a larger audience if they feel the need to.
Perhaps this sounds childish, but why attack it on DAZ's end, and not Poser's?
I feel that Poser is much less innovative than DAZ.
I mean, Poser is still using generation 4...
Please do take note of this post from the first page of the thread
This thread is not to be used to provoke the DS v Poser arguments again, please.
And BTW, many DS users, Carrara users and of course Bryce users also use V4. Poser does have other options, including it's own generation of weight mapped figures, it is no limited to V4. Newer versions of Poser can also use all the Genesis and Genesis 2 products using the DSON importer.
As a long time Poser user, and I am sure many other Poser users feel the same way with DAZ as you do with Renderosity, which directly coralates with what the PA's are saying about Poser sales here. With the differences in the programs becoming larger I can see fewer vendors offering products that are compatable. I used to spend 60/40 split of my 3D budget here at DAZ but since the differences between the programs has started to widen, my spending is now 85/10/5 between Rendo/RDNA/DAZ. Nothing against DAZ, the PA's or the programs, but thats just the way of the world. You go where you get the best deals and selection for your Dollar.
Yes, that's how I see it, too. It's kind of sad, in especially if you have formed an attachment to one place, or the style of a certain vendor.
But the frustration is just a mutual thing for both, DS and Poser users - there's more and more "one application only" content, because of the sheer effort it takes to create things for both apps, so that they look decent in both apps.
What we witness now is a sort of concentration, like you said, where vendors for one platform go and sell in certain shops only, while the other group choses a different sales outlet. Us, as customers, are the ones who have to jump around, get product-envy, and ask ourselves "Why won't this work in my app?!?" :-)
It sounds like the RoI for supporting both would come from selling content on multiple sites... or possibly a better conversion utility. I started with DAZ 4.5 and it has been my intention to start creating and selling content as a hobby and to support both DAZ and Poser. In the process I decided that Hexagon just wouldn't cut it and now Lightwave is in the mix.
I do have to admit that I'm a big stickler for a good user experience. Poser's user interface is terrible and makes me not want to use it thus I have not taken the time to learn it really at all. I still think for myself as a hobbyist it'd be a good idea to support it to some extent. With that in mind, does anyone know of a really good tutorial (text or preferably video) that would be good for poser pro 2012?
All of this sounds like the same argument as to why there is something like 60% skimpy female "clothing", 20% non-skimpy female clothing, 10% generic clothing (generally sold for females and makes the user auto fit it for the other), and 10% male clothing. Artists doing this for money as a primary job do what makes money.
That may be true, but I've found lots of Genesis and Genesis2 stuff elsewhere and tend to grab it when I see it mainly to support the vendors who support those figures. Suggesting that people not bother is not fair to them.
I purchase plenty of stuff that says Poser only. Props and scene stuff I do a cursory check and 99% of the time I go ahead and purchase if I want it. I don't worry about materials too much depending on the item. I can handle it myself. Sometimes I actually read the readme which has a list of files to see if there are pz2's as well as mt5's etc etc. Hair is usually not a problem. Prop hair is easiest to deal with, long figure hair (conformed) is more difficult if you want to use it with a figure other than, say, V4..
I've only been 'burned' twice. And one was a figure I was quite sure would not work but wanted to see how 'bad' it behaved for future reference. IOW I purchased with eyes wide open. The other turned out to be a .3ds object and I hadn't read the readme to discover that.
And I buy a lot. I keep telling myself NO MORE V4 STUFF. But still find a lot I really really like and since I have V4 and even if the item won't transfer well I can always use her in a scene. No problem. I still buy for M4. Shoot me.
Oh, guys, it is so simple: DS is free. People new to 3D usually get DS now, because there is no real Poser demo (give us your credit card to test the trial...). PAs who have PS and are proficient with it can do PS stuff. PAs who don't or are proficient with DS will naturally stick to DS. Add the fact Poser is an investment which, if bought especially to make products more PS-compatible, has to pay back in products' sales. DSON is rumoured not to work out-of-the-box for some users and this fear is spread.
Remember the time versus price thing. Also, when I look at my library, DS sets are smaller than PS ones (DUF and DSFs are smaller than PZ2s?). While Generation 4 works equally in both applications, Generation 5 and 6 stuff works better in DS. Of course, most things can be solved as well, but I'm talking about out-of-the-box results. DAZ has that good monthly return policy, I'm not sure if other sites do, but this certainly adds safety to your purchases (I can return it if I don't like it).
PAs have to sustain themselves and their families. Keep in mind they need to invest not only their time and effort. If you make characters, you need morph set, morph resource kits, sometimes external sculpting software. And skins - either pay for merchant resource kits or pay the model who will let take nude photos to create your own kit. If you make hairstyles, you need a sculpting application and again - resource kits or photographs that have to be postworked properly. Clothes? Modelling software and textures. Add a good computer with enough RAM, a powerful graphics card... All this stuff must give a return plus some additional income. And you need to schedule your workflow properly, so that you get paid enough before they cut electricity off - if this happens, you are screwed as your workstation won't run. So I don't see a point for blaming people for not making everything compatible with everything.
This is a fascinating topic. Thank you everyone. as I have learned so much here today.
My own experience is very limited, as I am still learning both Poser and DS. I am wondering about the future of the technology for both programs. It appears DS is becoming much more versatile and sophisticated over time (And so is Poser), so as a free program is it able to compete strongly with eg., Poser Pro 2014..... and to the extent that DS becomes the preferred choice (performance wise) over time?????
Again, I am not asking which is better, but DS is very good, so it must be getting more difficult to compete with DS as a free program.
Is this what is happening?
Thanks.
R
This thread is not to be used to provoke the DS v Poser arguments again, please.
And BTW, many DS users, Carrara users and of course Bryce users also use V4. Poser does have other options, including it's own generation of weight mapped figures, it is no limited to V4. Newer versions of Poser can also use all the Genesis and Genesis 2 products using the DSON importer.
There's a few that use Roxie ,but Roxie does not have the morphs or selection of cloths that V4 has.
There's a few users that use DSON. but most that use Poser stay with V4.
I like V6 but V4 still rules Poser by far ,it's just how it is.
I wasn't nor is anyone else blaming anyone if you reread all of the posts, I was simply saying that it is a difference in the paths both program developers chose to go down. I do not fault anyone for using either program, I tried to use DS4.6 and just couldn't set the interface up to work the way I am used to in Poser. DAZ used to support Poser and has done so for a great many years, and now that it appears to be moving away from that due to technical issues. As a Poser issue I have tried to use DSON so I could continue to use DAZ items but I just haven't been able to make it work as well as I would expect it to to invest the amount of money I have invested in Gen 4 characters.
Yes, that's how I see it, too. It's kind of sad, in especially if you have formed an attachment to one place, or the style of a certain vendor.
But the frustration is just a mutual thing for both, DS and Poser users - there's more and more "one application only" content, because of the sheer effort it takes to create things for both apps, so that they look decent in both apps.
What we witness now is a sort of concentration, like you said, where vendors for one platform go and sell in certain shops only, while the other group choses a different sales outlet. Us, as customers, are the ones who have to jump around, get product-envy, and ask ourselves "Why won't this work in my app?!?" :-)
Exactly, There is no reason to blame the PA's for doing what makes them the most money and I respect that they have been honest enough to stand up and say why they have chosen to do it this way. Its just business.
We need to be clear about the difference between DAZ and PA's. DAZ the last time I checked still requires support for both programs when the product can be supported in both programs for products that it buys out from PA's or staff creates. PA's on the other hand, have freedom about what they support for products brokered through DAZ. Now if your talking about DAZ Studio it has never fully supported poser features (different surface set up for example) any more than Poser has fully supported Studio. The differences just get more and more clear cut as Studio has evolved past something somewhat comparable with Poser 4.
Exactly. I mean, when DS started, it was obviously less sophisticated than Poser, but the marketing scheme and overall quality of models let the company earn. From my point of view, they invest the income in a positive way. For me, the most visible lack is dynamics, which Poser has, but it can change with DS 4.7/ DS 5... Who knows. Anyway, people tend to choose one software over another, because learning all is too much.
We need to be clear about the difference between DAZ and PA's. DAZ the last time I checked still requires support for both programs when the product can be supported in both programs for products that it buys out from PA's or staff creates. PA's on the other hand, have freedom about what they support for products brokered through DAZ. Now if your talking about DAZ Studio it has never fully supported poser features (different surface set up for example) any more than Poser has fully supported Studio. The differences just get more and more clear cut as Studio has evolved past something somewhat comparable with Poser 4.
I have seen several items that could have been supported by both programs offered as a DAZ freebie that were DS4.6 only so while for the most part you are correct, that is not a 100% true statement. And you are correct I should have said DAZ PA's instead of just DAZ as a company. You are also correct the PA's here or at any one of the other 3D merchant stores are free to support any program(s) they choose and I have stated that several times during this thread.
I have seen several items that could have been supported by both programs offered as a DAZ freebie that were DS4.6 only so while for the most part you are correct, that is not a 100% true statement. And you are correct I should have said DAZ PA's instead of just DAZ as a company. You are also correct the PA's here or at any one of the other 3D merchant stores are free to support any program(s) they choose and I have stated that several times during this thread.
As a general rule, yes, it is a requirement. But they do reserve that to a case by case basis. Sometimes, the vendor doesn't have/know how to use the other program, and they will let that slide.
At any rate, the point is, sometimes there are good reasons for a lack of support. I know the lack of poser support upsets customers that are using Poser. But for years... it was slanted the other way. It was always DS folks left out in the cold. So at this point, I think its a win some lose some kinna thing. There are still a number of folks who are supporting Poser.... there are even some on DAZ, specifically. The problem is, the ones left standing aren't getting the sales they deserve, because folks aren't looking. So this in turn creates a vicious circle... with sales dwindling, more eventually will take the jump to DS/Genesis.
I think there are still plenty of Poser users out there, in all honesty. I think, though, like me a lot of Poser-only users that don't use DSON have just quit even looking here at Daz's store most of the time. If and when I spend money here, it's it's for older items I'm fairly confident will work in Poser 2014, and even then buying here is a rarity for me. If Daz and the PAs were to cut it's back catalog of Generation 1-4 figure support (and other back catalog items), I probably wouldn't shop here at all. Even at other stores, I spend more carefully than I used to (having a monthly budget), but I still buy plenty of stuff from Poser-friendly vendors. There seems little reason to look here any more because I don't use Studio and I don't use DSON. Many of times, I'm "lucky" if the "weekly freebies" (which are pretty much a Platinum Club perk now, so I consider them paid for in the long run) will work for me. Basically I'm down to buying from one store most of the time and it starts with "R" and ends in "Y" and Poser-only users (meaning no DSON) are starting to left out there, as well. When it comes to new releases at Daz, it's just easier not to look here and see stuff that I can't "have" in my runtime without learning another program or changing my workflow. It makes me a little sad, because Daz used to be my favorite place to shop (and their old forums were one of my favorite places for news and socialization), back when I started using Poser in late 2005, but it's the way it is.
Hi all,
I normally hate writing anything in Forums here anymore, but I had to mention something I noticed since DS4.x came out, then went to DS4.5 and DS4.6,
At that time Poser went from Poser 7 and the first Poser Pro version, and prior to that the figures that were distributed with Poser were well, honestly put, rather ugly. Despite M3's bowling ball shoulders, the next figure David 3.0 fixed alot of that awkwardness and David remains for me the most beautiful of the Daz males out of the box. Even as Daz was still a "Poser" content store, they had the figure market in the palm of their hands, and people make clothing for those figures.
Granted Generation 2 and Generation 3 had multiple figures with different meshes, similar but still unique figures. So PAs back then could make one outfit and simply rework it for another figure, modify rigs and scales and stuff and make an outfit eventually fit each one, but resell the outfit multiple times. As Generation 4 came out, the concept of Unimesh happened. And with each new Generation 4 figure for the Female, and then for the Male, a Unimesh Fit thing would be added to clothing.
This was the end of the production line really for Poser users for Daz3D human figures.
Then Genesis came, one figure turning into anything you wanted with 2 legs. Pretty awesome idea really, but not so hot for people making clothing for many individual figure shapes. The outfits had to fit one very versatile figure. So sales changed to support 1 figure many many figure shapes. And Genesis 1 was both male and female. The whole DSON thing was not working correctly for most Poser users, and so many just didn't use it. Genesis was used within Poser by those who really wanted to try things out, and not just click and hit the make-art-button. And the new figures coming out with Poser's next versions, 8.0 and then 9.0 were even uglier than the predecessors. And support for those figures almost stopped really. Even at Content Paradise I noticed that those very few who made skins for the Poser included figures dropped off the face of the planet.
I was told that the fellow who was at Smith-Micro making the human figures refused to believe his figure creations were anything other than more beautiful than any figure Daz created. I guess he finds that Von Wolfenstein cat woman a true beauty. Anyhow, with the drastic changes in the Runtime Structures, and the placement of products, as well as the figures becoming increasingly more beautiful (the Daz Genesis 2 and the Generation 6) I'm not even sure if people are using DSON that much successfully to port them into Poser Pro 2014 and use them. That DS 4.6 is absolutely free is the bit of genius to get people to use it, and conquer the marketplace. That Daz has the most beautiful figures both male and female is the next biggest plus.
Now if we could get some Genesis 2 equal Quadrupeds (ie: Dogs & Cats) and could make a Generation 6 Centaur or Sphinx with Geografting, then we'd have everything. -- I started out with Poser 3 and Bryce 3 back in the late 90s, and the interface of Poser hasn't really changed that much since Kai Krause made the thing for Poser 4. The world of 3D has changed drastically since then, and what was then funky and interesting is today klunky and kludgy at best. Daz created Daz Studio to be more intuitive and fun to use, and it got alot more of what was in newer 3D high end apps. I've changed my focus on most of what I do to Daz Studio 4.6, with Reality, Luxus and am still hoping for a David 6.0 and a Hiro 6.0 but probably will have to wait for Genesis 3 Male/Female and maybe those will come. Who knows, but well, its been an interesting ride so far, and I'm curious about which way it will go... But I will stick with my beautiful Daz males and females anyday.
Hope some of this info was interesting and useful... I guess its just info most PAs already know just laid out for those who might be interested to know some of the background stuff. I've been a PA here supporting male products with others, since about 2006-2007, and have been involved in the Poser scene since 1997.
As I said, its been a learning experience. Some good, some bad, and well, you make the most of it if you want to keep on going with the flow. I love 3D, and I love DS 4.6 and the Daz Genesis figures. -- bet you didn't expect to hear that from an old long time Poser user.
Happy Rendering in whatever program you choose! As long as you have fun doing it!
Greetings to all from Berlin, Germany.
Antonio aka ProFotograf
Well In the CGI universe DAZ Poser both are very simple app's that just load meshes,textures,morphs,displacement maps etc etc made in other app's like C4D,MAX,Maya,Lightwave,Modo,Blender,zBrush,Mudbox,Photoshop ,Gimp etc etc.
C4D,MAX,Maya,Lightwave,Modo,Blender are all main app's that more or less do the same thing.
DAZ Poser are considered plugs for these app's.
I think V3 was made in Lightwave ,V5 was made in Modo.
Lightwave divided in two so now there's Lightwave & Modo.
Before DAZ Studio when there was just Poser.
Poser was the software but
DAZ characters was what at least 90% of all Poser users used then and now.
it's not so much DAZ Studio or Poser there more or less the same app.
it's DAZ Characters that have all the morphs and support of the venders.
As long as ya got DAZ Characters with what ever app ya well off :)
From what I know of the history, before there was Daz Studio (the software), Daz (the company) made and sold content for the Poser software. Hence the support. Which is also why the Read Me files for some of the content sold here tells you where you can find the content in Poser, but not where they're located in Daz Studio.
the empire of DAZ you see today was built on Poser with Poser users.
with out a Poser and Poser users support for DAZ there would have been no DAZ.
Poser still uses generation 4 cause it's all they have.
Generation 4 was the last character DAZ made for Poser.
It's not Poser users fault that DAZ left Poser.
There is no other character creator company like DAZ.
So if DAZ does not make new characters for Poser then there's no new characters made for Poser.
the empire of DAZ you see today was built on Poser with Poser users.
with out a Poser and Poser users support for DAZ there would have been no DAZ.
Poser still uses generation 4 cause it's all they have.
Generation 4 was the last character DAZ made for Poser.
It's not Poser users fault that DAZ left Poser.
There is no other character creator company like DAZ.
So if DAZ does not make new characters for Poser then there's no new characters made for Poser.
Well thats a blade that cuts both ways... its really not DAZ's fault Poser no longer has compelling figures, either. Free enterprise and all that, anyone with the capability could make one. I also can't really blame DAZ for not wanting to make figures for competing software.
In all this it's important to note that Daz Studio users also have the benefit of being able to use any non weight-mapped Poser items in DS natively. Sadly, the same isn't true in reverse so users of Daz Studio have access to most of the Poser content as well as the Daz specific items, giving them a much broader spectrum of toys to play with.
The only minor stumbling block is materials, but those are easy enough to handle within Daz Studio itself, and there are a wealth of shader options by various PA's to assist in that.
In all this it's important to note that Daz Studio users also have the benefit of being able to use any non weight-mapped Poser items in DS natively. Sadly, the same isn't true in reverse so users of Daz Studio have access to most of the Poser content as well as the Daz specific items, giving them a much broader spectrum of toys to play with.
The only minor stumbling block is materials, but those are easy enough to handle within Daz Studio itself, and there are a wealth of shader options by various PA's to assist in that.
Actually, to be fair.... non-WM'd items can be used both ways.... so there's the same amount of content, as far as that goes. DS can still save out certain poser files, including CR2's and traditional rigging.
Figures WM'd in Poser can't be used in DS, either. They don't play very nice. So that's even too.
Also, Generation 4 and below had the advantage of being around for many many years. Genesis has only had a few. So technically, there is far more Gen 4 and below content.
The only difference, is that no one is really creating stuff for Poser that has WM's (aside from some content for Dawn, which isn't very widespread)
And Ive found some of my duf files to be actually just as, or heavier than CR2's. Its the morphs that make things really big. Other files (like materials) are right around the same (uncompressed, that is) And Poser also has compression.... youll notice those compressed files have a z on the end (ex: crz instead of cr2)
Poser users have long been able to use Genesis and Genesis 2 via the DSON converter to use the later figures in their works, but for various reasons it never took off as much. The figures are still obviously better supported in their native Daz Studio, so that may go some way to its popularity.
The original question was why there was no Poser support for sets of props. I think every Poser user understands what a complete and awful PITA it is to try to make clothes and rigged figures work in both sets of software (and by rigged figures, I don't mean a door that opens and closes). What's kind of hard to understand fully is why a house, for instance, can't be easily made Poser compatible.
I suppose if you're relying on a lot of DS shaders, those would be quite difficult to recreate. But if your props use texture maps in standard diffuse, bump, gradient bump, displacement, and specularity, the only tweaks to be made are to way Poser handles displacement.
Still, while I doubt there are that many more DS users than Poser users, I DON'T doubt that there aren't many Poser users who shop at Daz very much, so it doesn't surprise me that sales of Poser compatible products don't offer much incentive to go through any hassle to provide them.
In the end, it's entirely up to the vendor whether they want to spend the time for we lowly Poser peeps. Those who do will get my money -- and a sound and hearty cheer every time I see "1 Poser core installer" on their product page. Thank you, Merlin!! Thank you, Antfarm! Thank you, Jack Tomalin! Thank you, Andrey Pestryakov!
In the meantime, there's still an enormous back catalog that I don't yet own... (though I think I have almost everything that some vendors have made). Lately, I've been buying a lot of very old stuff. And I've discovered that it renders just as well as the new. It's just that the old stuff often doesn't have such beautiful new promos, so you don't realize how fantastic it really is. But with the right lighting, if they were modelled well, 10 year old props look just as good -- often better -- as 10 day old props. And Daz has a big catalog of great old stuff.
Agreed whole heartedly! You forgot Esha. She made these wonderful looking Rowan trees, (◦1 DSON Core installer ◦1 Poser Core Installer)
(and more vegetation stuff),didn't get them yet but will as soon as..... :)
Love, Jeanne :)
With PA's reporting dwindling sales on Poser content, and soaring sales on Daz Content, it's not hard to see why there's relatively few supporters still making items cross-compatible. The majority of Poser compatible items I've seen are created by those who almost exclusively use Poser to begin with.
ProFotograf, IgnisSerpentus, HeralfOfFire and Velvet Goblin - totally seconding what you said on this page.
If you talk to PAs that make props, it's actually a bit more effort to make them Poser compatible than in DS; so it's not just making different materials. The big change is really the DSON format. It's not just to make things work in Poser, it's really a description language that describes how things are defined in a scene, and is the native format to save everything in DS. With the format, vendors can deliver scenes and props and characters far easier than they could in pre-4.0 versions of DS. (Those that used to do DS-compatible scenes in older versions knew the hassle of finding all those files in the data directory to package up, and also the fact DS couldn't make props at all, so you had to use Poser. Also scenes weren't portable in older versions of DS, so if you were wanting to copy your work to another machine, it was basically impossible for the average user.). So with the DSON spec and the tools within DS, PAs don't need to buy a copy of Poser to do props and scenes, and I think that's why you see a lot of props and buildings now in this format (with native materials) without a Poser native version.
DAZ may have initially been built on poser, but that was many years ago, and if it had remained strictly based on poser, the company would have closed up long ago.
All successful companies have to move forward and grow. Quite often becoming something entirely different than what they originally started as. Motorola originally made car radios, and now they are known for cell phones. Companies have to keep up with changing trends in order to survive. Much as I like poser, it really has not changed much over the years...and I can understand that SM may not have the resources to pump into that program, they have alot of other software that is doing much better for them. So I am glad DAZ has taken the time to invest in their software as they have so that we as artists can grow and use more and more creative tools to develop the art we want....and keep up with the times.
Some notable advances DAZ has introduced are (my current favorite) HD morphs which allow ALOT more detail in characters, geografts which let us seamlessly attach stuff onto characters, Geoshells to better merge different figures together, Layered textures (LIE).Figures that can be re-rigged on the fly for specific characters. How about simple features like autofit for clothing?(I remember what a PITA poke through was before that), Or an editable interface to make things more useful for how we individually use the program. Bridges into other software. Not to mention all the development tools that customers don't often see, but make life alot easier for content makers.
I am sure there are many more, but that was just off the top of my head.
Rawn
DAZ may have initially been built on poser, but that was many years ago, and if it had remained strictly based on poser, the company would have closed up long ago.
All successful companies have to move forward and grow. Quite often becoming something entirely different than what they originally started as. Motorola originally made car radios, and now they are known for cell phones. Companies have to keep up with changing trends in order to survive. Much as I like poser, it really has not changed much over the years...and I can understand that SM may not have the resources to pump into that program, they have alot of other software that is doing much better for them. So I am glad DAZ has taken the time to invest in their software as they have so that we as artists can grow and use more and more creative tools to develop the art we want....and keep up with the times.
Some notable advances DAZ has introduced are (my current favorite) HD morphs which allow ALOT more detail in characters, geografts which let us seamlessly attach stuff onto characters, Geoshells to better merge different figures together, Layered textures (LIE).Figures that can be re-rigged on the fly for specific characters. How about simple features like autofit for clothing?(I remember what a PITA poke through was before that), Or an editable interface to make things more useful for how we individually use the program. Bridges into other software. Not to mention all the development tools that customers don't often see, but make life alot easier for content makers.
I am sure there are many more, but that was just off the top of my head.
Rawn
Rawn you make some really good points here and I agree that SM has let Poser stagnate while DS has forged ahead, and I can't speak for the other poser users but I have tried to use DS and the workflow of DS is seriously jacked up for me. The runtime folders make no sense at all, if DS could create a mirrored poser workflow option I am sure you would see a lot more poser users that feel like me switch over. I see a great amount of items being made by yourself and others that are not Poser comparable that I would by if they worked in Poser.