Why Poser? (serious question from a DAZ Studio user)

XoechZXoechZ Posts: 1,100
edited December 1969 in Poser Discussion

Hello!

I am using DAZ Studio for some time now and most of the content I use is for V4. On some sites there is a lot more stuff for V4 and most of it is made for Poser. Some work with DAZ Studio, some do not. So I am seriously thinking of switching from DAZ Studio to Poser. But the decision is not easy. So maybe some of you can help me.

- DAZ Studio is free, Poser costs money. Why? Is it worth the money?
- Is Poser harder to use than DAZ Studio, or even easier?
- What are the real advantages of using Poser?
- What can I do im Poser that I cannot do in DAZ Studio?
- Is Poser more suitable for my work? (I am doing mostly Fantasy/Hero themed images)

These are just some of the questions that I am currently asking myself. What, in your opinion, is the main reason for using Poser?
As said above, it is also a question of money. Poser 10 is not cheap, Poser Pro 4014 even more expensive and out of my budget.

Any help, suggestions and opinions are very welcome. I have never used Poser, so I really need some advice.

Thank you!

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Comments

  • SylvanSylvan Posts: 2,644
    edited December 1969

    I tried Poser but found the workspace not as intuitive as that of DAZ.
    But I have read some positive notes about how Poser handles dynamic cloths (clothroom? can't remember the name ><).<br /> Studio doesn't have that.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 33,604
    edited November 2013

    The cloth room is terrific, I love using Dynamic clothes in Poser. And anyone can make clothes to use in the cloth room. It is even possible to turn DS clothing into Dynamic clothing in Poser, with a little work, after exporting an obj out of DS and even easier to turn DS dynamic clothing into Poser dynamic clothing.

    Genesis of course does not work natively in Poser, has to be imported using the DSON importer.

    Why do I use Poser, well basically because when I first started with Poser it was in the same stable as Bryce, which of course is the number one program in my eyes. I wanted to put figures in my Bryce scenes, so I bought Poser, was Poser 3 back then. Because I was used to the Bryce interface I found the Poser one was easy to learn.

    Having got into a comfortable work flow I have stuck with Poser.

    I did try DS. back when Poser was looking a bit threatened, but decided that I couldn't get on with it. So went back to Poser and have stayed there ever since.

    My son, on the other hand, never could get on with Poser, but took to DS like a duck to water, and has never looked back

    So really it is is horses for courses.

    Whether it is worth having both only you can decide.

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • XoechZXoechZ Posts: 1,100
    edited December 1969

    Thanks for the answers so far. What I want to know is:

    - is Poser worth the money? (compared to DAZ Studio which is free)
    - is the worflow in both programs the same (setting up the scene, camera framing, lightning, rendering)?
    - is Poser rendering faster or slower than DAZ Studio?
    - is it easier to get high quality renders in Poser or is it harder? (compared to DAZ Studio)

  • edited December 1969

    Honestly, I used Poser for many years during the time when DS was still stabilising as a software. I am more used to it, and of course, the native Dynamic Cloth Room , Dynamic Hair room, and material shaders all came on the market some time before the DS equivalents (which are purchased add-ons, mind).

    Interface familiarity is also an initial setback. As a long-time user of Poser, I am always hunting around the DS GUI, but I find what I am looking for eventually. This should not be a big issue in crossover usage.

    The talent, support and good work of the people behind both software items means you can really pick and choose what you want to achieve, using either software.

  • Satira CapriccioSatira Capriccio Posts: 523
    edited December 1969

    Yes. Poser is worth the money. Of course, that's a subjective opinion. There are others who will say no.

    Although, I started with DAZ Studio, and then tried Poser, I found Poser easier for me to learn. I find the Poser UI works better for me too.

    If I understand what you're asking, yes. The process for setting up a scene is the same.

    Rendering speed depends more on the computer in my experience. I can't really answer whether it's faster in DAZ Studio or in Poser because the quality of renders I got were not as good in DAZ Studio as in Poser. So, I wouldn't be comparing apples to apples.

    I've never been able to get the high quality renders out of DAZ Studio that I can with Poser. Others have the opposite experience. Remember, you aren't locked into the DS or Poser render engines and can use LuxRender or Octane (nVidia cards).

    I would have said if you are a Genesis user, don't bother to move to Poser. In my opinion, Genesis locks you into DAZ Studio. However, since you stated that you mostly use V4, if you do decide to move to Poser, you might give Dawn (from Hivewire) a try. She's quite an improvement on V4, and I don't miss using V4 at all.

    Also, you can find Poser Pro 2012 / Poser 9 for cheaper.

    A quick look at Amazon shows Poser 9 at $60, Poser 10 at $87, and Poser Pro 2012 at $136.99. You don't want to get earlier versions than those. You might keep watching the prices on Poser Pro 2014 to see if it ever falls into your price range. The improvements and added features are well worth the money. (Of course, there are those who will disagree).

    XoechZ said:
    Thanks for the answers so far. What I want to know is:

    - is Poser worth the money? (compared to DAZ Studio which is free)
    - is the worflow in both programs the same (setting up the scene, camera framing, lightning, rendering)?
    - is Poser rendering faster or slower than DAZ Studio?
    - is it easier to get high quality renders in Poser or is it harder? (compared to DAZ Studio)

  • Satira CapriccioSatira Capriccio Posts: 523
    edited December 1969

    This is my take on why DAZ Studio is free and Poser costs money.

    DAZ makes their money brokering content. I believe all versions of DAZ Studio are currently free, but that hasn't always been the case. The basic version has usually been free, while the "professional" version of DS was not. When not free, the price for the "professional" version has been in the Poser price range.

    On the other hand, Smith Micro develops and markets software and services, and doesn't really put a lot of emphasis on brokering content. Though Content Paradise is part of Smith Micro, I've never seen anyone consider it their go to source for content.

    XoechZ said:
    - DAZ Studio is free, Poser costs money. Why? Is it worth the money?
  • XoechZXoechZ Posts: 1,100
    edited December 1969

    Thanks again for your answers!

    One thing that scares me off a bit is that Poser 10 is only 32bit. Isn´t that a bit limiting, especially with large scenes?

  • FirstBastionFirstBastion Posts: 5,826
    edited November 2013

    I use Poser and Daz Studio daily, it is far more cumbersome to work with on big scenes. DAZ Studio handles big scenes better.

    Post edited by FirstBastion on
  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 33,604
    edited November 2013

    XoechZ said:
    Thanks again for your answers!

    One thing that scares me off a bit is that Poser 10 is only 32bit. Isn´t that a bit limiting, especially with large scenes?

    The pro versions are 64bit I believe the pro version of P9 is Poser 2012 I could be wrong

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • Three WishesThree Wishes Posts: 471
    edited December 1969

    I keep both packages around.

    I started with Poser, and considered it to be the better renderer up until Studio 3.5-ish. Part of that was my lack of familiarity with DAZ's add-on kits.

    I'm also very familiar with the Poser UI, although my Studio knowledge is catching up. Poser has a couple of really cumbersome limitations; namely, the camera and light navigation is primitive and the UI lacks the ability to gang-select objects for mass editing. Their approach to object grouping is, in my opinion, ridiculously awkward.

    On the other hand, Poser Pro's network rendering is a huge assist.

    I have hope of someday releasing a product or two on DAZ and I'll want to have both packages available for testing. But these days, Studio is my first choice for new scenes and Poser is my second. I didn't upgrade from Poser Pro 2012; I didn't see a pressing need.

  • DestinysGardenDestinysGarden Posts: 2,545
    edited December 1969

    XoechZ said:
    Thanks for the answers so far. What I want to know is:

    - is Poser worth the money? (compared to DAZ Studio which is free)
    - is the worflow in both programs the same (setting up the scene, camera framing, lightning, rendering)?
    - is Poser rendering faster or slower than DAZ Studio?
    - is it easier to get high quality renders in Poser or is it harder? (compared to DAZ Studio)

    I'll take a stab at this. I have and use both programs for content creation and testing. I've said in the past if Poser was the program I started with, I would have probably preferred it. But I started with DS and that is the one I am comfortable with.

    Is Poser worth the money? Only you can really decide that for yourself. If you decide that the Poser only items you want to use, make the cost of Poser worth it to you, than yes. Maybe you can find DS equivalents, or have the ability to modify the Poser items you want to use in DS. In my opinion, the one thing Pose has that DS doesn't have is the ability to clothify any clothing item and drape it. If you are planning on using a lot of Poser only Dynamic clothing, it is probably worth the money.

    Is the workflow in both programs the same? Basically yes, although some functions are put in different places. Examples, conforming clothing to a figure took a bit to figure out, and the lighting control is very different in each. These are the quirks that make people prefer one over the other, and usually the one they prefer is the program they started with, the program they know.

    Is Poser rendering faster or slower than DAZ Studio? That depends on what you are doing and what your computer is capable of. My experience is that DS is faster, others have said the opposite. They really can comparatively be called the same. By that I mean a good size, high render quality image will take a "few hours" in both. Your mileage may vary.

    Is it easier to get high quality renders in Poser or is it harder? For me, it is much easier to get quality renders out of DS. DS is the program I am most familiar with, the one I don't have to think about to use. Poser's Firefly and DAZ Studio's 3Delight are both fully capable render engines, with different output styles. Again, the choice of one over the other is largely personal.

    I would suggest seeing if you can get an inexpensive copy of an older Poser version so you can try it out for yourself. Many stores have the box version of Poser 9 on discount, and Smith Micro does sales too. I'm not sure you will be able to decide if Poser is what you want until you actually try it for yourself. If you can afford it, most here will agree that having access to both programs as tools in your toolbox is a good thing.

    My 2 cents. I hope that helped.

  • Satira CapriccioSatira Capriccio Posts: 523
    edited December 1969

    I don't remember which version enabled this, but you can now drag and drop conforming clothing onto a figure to conform. You can conform one or select multiple pieces of clothing in the folder this way. Just pay attention to the tooltip which will tell you whether you're adding to the scene or to the figure.

    Examples, conforming clothing to a figure took a bit to figure out, and the lighting control is very different in each. These are the quirks that make people prefer one over the other, and usually the one they prefer is the program they started with, the program they know.
  • starionwolfstarionwolf Posts: 3,575
    edited November 2013

    Poser 9 is worth the $29.95 that I spent. :) I use it for rendering old skin textures. Some generation 3 textures don't look good in Daz Studio. Plus, I can load some light sets from the Dream House series in Poser. The lights in some sets and vehicles only work in Poser, not Daz Studio 3 and above.

    sorry I can't answer any of your other questions. I just bought Poser 9 a few months ago when it was on sale.

    um, that is all I can think of now.

    edit:

    The main reason that I use older generation figures is that they use less memory than Genesis 1 and 2 and their clothes. I use 32 bit windows. Please, no lectures about me upgrading my computer. lol

    Poser has a hair room. I can create body, armpit and chest hair.

    I can play with Alyson, Jessie, James, Kate, Ben and Simon in Poser.

    Post edited by starionwolf on
  • XoechZXoechZ Posts: 1,100
    edited December 1969

    Ok, I dared it and bought Poser 10. Everything ok. Some things are a bit different but it is easy to find out how things work in Poser. The coolest thing so far is the shadows in the preview window. Very nice :-)

  • FightingwolfFightingwolf Posts: 50
    edited December 1969

    - DAZ Studio is free, Poser costs money. Why? Is it worth the money?
    There are some things that Poser does that Daz Studio doesn't do but over the years I've seen both become similar with the features. I've paid for Poser since Poser 6 and I've been happy with the money that I've spent on Poser. I also download Daz Studio each time a new version comes out but I haven't had the time to actually play with it. But in the past Poser has has always had more flexibility when it comes to working with materials and the 3D model itself. If you have patience you can get Poser for less than $50 so there isn't a need to pay the big $500 price unless you just have to have it right now and can't wait for a sale.

    - Is Poser harder to use than DAZ Studio, or even easier?
    Poser is actually very easy to learn, but many people try to create wonderful works of art before learning the basics. I teach online beginner workshops for Poser and after a week of many of the students are able to move around Poser with comfort and confidence. Sometimes we want to rush the learning process and that's what makes anything harder or easier to use.

    What are the real advantages of using Poser?
    1. More flexibility when working with materials (textures) especially now that Poser Pro 2014 is out.
    2. New fitting room feature makes it easy to convert many of the existing clothing that I have into dynamic clothing
    3. I never have to wonder if Poser is going to be able to open a 3D model file which pretty much means that I can use the thousands of models that are out there. Including the ones that are on this site which is awesome, especially since Smithmicro has spent any real effort to make their 3D models as successful as V4. So I guess by default they really have to make sure that their software can use whatever is out there.

    - What can I do in Poser that I cannot do in DAZ Studio?
    I really wouldn't know these days, I can only tell you the big differences that were present before Daz Studio 4. But before then Poser gave more control to the user which often times means that a person will need to work a little more in Poser to get a nice render. A beginner may hate this but as a person becomes more skilled with using Poser, he or she will be more than happy that they have more options and features that will allow them to make changes when working with 3D models.

    - Is Poser more suitable for my work? (I am doing mostly Fantasy/Hero themed images)
    Here's the deal with any 3D rendering software. There is always Postwork so when you talk about if it's better for a style of art, then it has more to do with person creating the art than the software. Even if you animate your characters you'll still benefit from using Postwork.

  • FightingwolfFightingwolf Posts: 50
    edited December 1969

    I use Poser and Daz Studio daily, it is far more cumbersome to work with on big scenes. DAZ Studio handles big scenes better.

    I find that using different camera angles to move things around helps me when I'm working on big scenes. I also use the primitive sphere to help me quickly get the coordinates of where my character should be located.

  • estheresther Posts: 592
    edited December 1969

    Hi,
    I haven't tried in DS but I make very big scenes in poser. The only time I find it really cumbersome is when I forget to turn of HW shading. having HW shading on is bad. But i have scenes with lots of V4s and M4s all fully dressed. I haven't counted up the max but I am currently working on a scene with about 10 of them in in a room with lots of props - is that a lot or not? I don't know?
    Love eshter

  • estheresther Posts: 592
    edited December 2013

    i think there are 11 daz people in total in this scene and I have just added two lo rez police (not rendered here)
    This is done in poser pro 2014 with HW shading OFF in preview settings.

    Screen_Shot_2013-12-14_at_2.46_.32_pm_.png
    616 x 521 - 430K
    Post edited by esther on
  • Ken OBanionKen OBanion Posts: 1,428
    edited December 1969

    I'm going to go ahead and toss in my two cents'.

    I use both Poser and DAZ Studio, and I move scenes and characters back and forth between them all the time. I generally build my individual characters in Poser, then import them into DS to assemble the final scene. It's a quirky workflow, but it works for me.

    Even so, I prefer to work in Poser. I have five versions installed on my computer: 6, 8, 9, 10, and Pro 2012. (Pro 2014 is still retail, so..., um, no. Not yet.)

    One thing I prefer about Poser is that Poser has a crap-load of cameras. And I use all of them! (Posing camera, face camera, left- and right-hand cameras, as well as the Main and the various orthographic cameras....) DAZ has nothing like the battery of cameras that Poser offers. Those cameras are why I prefer to do my character creation in Poser; the process is a lot easier, more enjoyable, and more productive, when you can actually see what you're doing, "up close and personal"!

    I also think the Material Room in Poser is vastly superior to the Surfaces tab in DS. I'll acknowledge that the node-based UI can be downright intimidating, but once you figure it out (and really, the only way to do that is bravely, by just diving right into it -- what doesn't kill you makes you stronger!), its power is truly impressive. On a related matter, I have found that lights are easier to manilulate in Poser, but that's probably my comfort level speaking more than anything else; I'm still not all that comfortable with lighting in general, but I'm less inept at it in Poser than I am in DS.

    I've seen a discussion on this forum about the directory hierarchy in DAZ Studio -- or the absence thereof -- and that's another issue I have with DS, and another area where Poser stands head-and-shoulders above DAZ Studio: you can actually find your content. (Well, usually; I have nearly 200 GB of content, scattered across some 20 runtimes, so I kind of think that that is a fool's errand -- or an exercise in futility.)

    One area where DAZ really shines over Poser is the scene hierarchy panel. You can navigate, and manipulate, the elements in your scene in DAZ Studio, with an ease that I can only wish for in Poser.

    Really, I suppose it's just a question of what you want out of either one, or what you're used to. So, if I had to offer a suggestion, I'd say..., use both.

  • estheresther Posts: 592
    edited December 1969

    Good news. There is an utility at rdna called advanced figure manager by semidieu. It has a hierarchy section as one of it's many features. From with in poser you can shift select a whole heap of things and delete them all or make them all invisible. so in that big scene above, I added 3 policemen and a M4 FBI agent and everything still working well but a bit laggy, so I made a lot of the people invisible whilst I pose the main characters.
    Love esther

  • starionwolfstarionwolf Posts: 3,575
    edited December 1969

    One thing I prefer about Poser is that Poser has a crap-load of cameras. And I use all of them! (Posing camera, face camera, left- and right-hand cameras, as well as the Main and the various orthographic cameras....) DAZ has nothing like the battery of cameras that Poser offers. Those cameras are why I prefer to do my character creation in Poser; the process is a lot easier, more enjoyable, and more productive, when you can actually see what you're doing, "up close and personal"!

    You can create extra cameras in Daz Studio, but creating them will take time. But I believe you can save the camera settings as a preset. I do understand what you are saying though.

  • PookPook Posts: 121
    edited December 1969

    I've got both Poser and Daz Studio installed, and I'm not even close to being a "power user" of either - but I always go with Poser because I find it a lot easier, more powerful and a lot more intuitive than Daz Studio. I started on Poser back years and years ago, so that might go a long way towards it, but every now and then I try Daz again to see if it would work better for me, and it hasn't got to the levels of ease that I find with Poser.

    It's not just the cameras though - it's other things that I've never seen in Daz Studio - Camera Dots and Pose Dots are a lifesaver when you're doing something complex, the structural hierarchy of the library - and the fact that you can easily rearranging things in Windows Explorer to store the library exactly as you require helps as well. The only thing I'm using Daz for is to create the Poser Content Files for the Daz3d stuff that doesn't have it so I can load them up in my normal library.....

  • wscottartwscottart Posts: 393
    edited December 1969

    Both of them are great programs. But I find myself in Poser most often as its system for moving around your scene is achieved easily and quickly making it well worth the money I spend on Poser at each upgrade.

    One set of tools in graphics is just never enough.

  • PookPook Posts: 121
    edited December 1969

    Actually - a slight change to my previous statement - I use Daz Studio on my laptop and Poser on the desktop - Poser would take one look at this laptop and laugh if I tried to render anything, but even Daz makes the laptop work hard and stops it working for a couple of hours. However it gives me a chance to experiment a bit while I'm away from my desktop and then I can play properly when I get to my desktop....

  • estheresther Posts: 592
    edited December 1969

    Because I use the same general scenes and characters etc that wouldn't work too well for me. If there was an easy way to quickly convert the textures between DS and Poser that would help somewhat.

  • XoechZXoechZ Posts: 1,100
    edited December 1969

    Hello again!

    Since I have started this topic, I think I should tell you my impressions of Poser 10.

    1. Cameras:
    In Poser you are forced to always look through a camera. There is nothing like the "Perspective View" in DAZ Studio, where you can simply navigate and jump around in your scene. You always have to select a camera, which I found a bit strange at the beginning. But after a while I got used to it.

    2. Lights:
    Awful! Ok, Poser supports IDL by default and the stock lights (infinite, spot, point) have a few more options, but placing a light in Poser is nothing than pure pain. After loading a light, I first had to search for it in the scene. Poser does not place a new light in the center, but anywhere in the scene. I dont know who finds this useful. Then, after finding the light I tried to place it. This is also painful. You cannot look "through" a light as in DAZ Studio, so you have to place your lights by looking through a scene cam only. This makes it hard to place them precisely. Setting up a simple 3-point spotlight scene took me more than 15 minutes.

    3. Loading content:
    Compared to DAZ Studio, Poser is loading really slooooow. No matter if it is a figure, a prop or anything. After double clicking something in the library, you can really go for a cup of coffee until it is loaded completely in your scene. Oh, and I have a modern and fast PC with lots of RAM :-)

    4. Materials:
    Ok, the material room in Poser is more powerful than the Surfaces Tab in Studio, but I simply cannot get comfortable with the node system. Doing something simple, like adding reflections to a surface is much more complicated in Poser. In Studio, you just have to move a slider.

    5. Rendering:
    Posers Firefly render engine has much less options than Studios render engine. So I thought it should be more easy to get high quality renders. But it is not. I fiddled around a lot with the settings, but I never got a satisfying result.

    Maybe there is some more that should be mentioned, maybe there are some points where Poser has some true advantages, but I did not find them out. After more than 2 weeks of testing, trying and missing DAZ studio, I uninstalled Poser and returned it. For me it was a real step back compared to DAZ Studio.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,573
    edited December 2013

    I started out working with just Poser, moved to supporting both, and then moved to just DAZ Studio not long after Genesis 1 came out. I stopped buying Poser versions at PP2012, and I've been vocal in my preference for DS, so consider the source etc. I'm going to try hard to be fair here.

    My opinion overall is:

    1. An expert user of either program can get basically the results they want, renderwise. This will require different workarounds and different add-ons in every case, but it can be done. Most objections voiced to either program in this thread do not apply to someone with really comprehensive knowledge of either, a budget for add-on items, and a good computer to run it on.

    2. Poser is easier for most beginners to learn. Many people prefer its interface; it just shows you immediately where to find lights and cameras in particular.

    3. DAZ Studio is updated faster and more often. This tends to mean there is less documentation for it, but it also leads to features appearing that Poser does not have, like the HD morph loading technology. This is because Smith Micro has many programs and projects, but DAZ has mainly DAZ Studio.

    4. Some of DAZ Studio's advantages will not become apparent to the casual user because they have to do with content creation. The big exception to this is Autofit and Transfer Utility. In DS it is now possible to use clothing from Generation 3 up through Genesis 2 on G1 and G2, which allows a bigger wardrobe than anything else that presently exists. (This does require paid add-ons, which I tend to forget because some of them were made by me.)

    The methods for clothing conversion in Poser used to be so time-consuming and inaccurate that there wasn't much point; I suppose this may have changed with Fitting Room, but I'm not likely to shell out for PP2014 to find out.

    5. Poser's Material Room Advanced features are easier to use than DAZ Studio's Shader Builder. Also, there's a certain luminous SSS look on skin that seems much easier to get in Poser than in DS renders.

    6. Poser has the ability to make dynamic clothing and hair. Studio has paid add-ons for these, but creation of hairs is difficult for most people, and only Optitex can create the dynamic clothing.

    7. DAZ Studio has the push, smoothing and collision modifier features. This is fairly huge as regards what you can do with clothing in a given scene, because it helps eliminate pokethrough about a thousand percent faster than dialing individual fixit morphs in Poser.


    And then there is the issue of system stability.

    I've heard people argue violently both ways on this. My experience is 100% with DAZ Studio in 64 bit versions since 4.0 as regards stability. PP2012, before I quit using it, would freeze and crash frequently, especially during renders when it was not easy to tell that was what was happening. I've heard others claim just as vehemently that DS was not stable on their system. So test them both on that one and form your own opinion.

    Post edited by SickleYield on
  • Dino GrampsDino Gramps Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    On system stability -

    Based on my experience with two computers and three graphics cards I believe that it has to do with your graphics card. I could not use DS on computer #1 until I replaced the graphics card.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,573
    edited December 1969

    On system stability -

    Based on my experience with two computers and three graphics cards I believe that it has to do with your graphics card. I could not use DS on computer #1 until I replaced the graphics card.

    Could be? Additional data, then:

    I've never had one that was bleeding edge, nor a "workstation" card (can't afford them), but usually whatever was in the $300 - $400 range at the time of purchase (since DS in 3Delight renders with the CPU).

    My PP2012 frustrations happened on my current Nvidia HD 4500 on my main machine; DS works fine with the on-board Intel graphics of this laptop, but I've never tried Poser on it.

  • mrposermrposer Posts: 1,118
    edited December 1969

    On your question about Poser worth the price... well currently DAZ Studio is the better bargain (free) and even if DAZ begins charging for it again as they have in the past it will probably always be cheaper than Poser. But both are great 3D software programs.... I drift from one to the other depending on what I am workiing on.... and to be honest... the price of software will be very very insignificant to the huge investment you will probably end up with content purchases... where the real money is made by DAZ.

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